Runs for mins when cold then starts and then stalls repeatedly

[gsxr]

that is kinda relevant

YES... that is a big deal. Swap out each individually.

 

[samm]

YES... that is a big deal. Swap out each individually.

Yes it is
U see swapping them out got rid of the Check engine light.
So i just assumed that they helped the situation and not made it worse.
Hopefully i will work one at a time and see if there is a change.

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[Lowman]

never assume....Investigate!

 

[samm]

never assume....Investigate!

I shall investigate further [emoji3]

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[RPB81]

I shall investigate further [emoji3]

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I’m no longer the owner of a 500e, but your symptoms appear to replicate one of my other cars. My CLK55 (208) had an Kleemann SC installed not too long ago. To make a long story short during the install the throttle body cable was disconnected and reconnected a few times. The car was driving perfect for 2-3k miles after the install until one cold morning my car experienced very similar symptoms to yours.

I spoke w/ the Kleemann rep the following day who was aware of this problem and informed me that the pins in the cable that connect to the throttle body can wear or potentially have carbon buildup. He told me to first try cleaning the terminals which had no result. I opted to replace the pins that connect to the TB and to rebuild the TB harness and the car has run fine ever since. I actually took my car to the dealership for the repair and the svc advisor and mechanic thought I was a bit crazy when I told them what to do. They ended up covering most of it under some type of warranty when they realized this was the issue. I know it’s a long shot although I get the feeling your problem is throttle related. The reason I am skeptical is because your symptoms were a result of changing spark plugs.. The guys on this site are beyond experts when it comes to these cars; I am sure they will be able to let you know if this might be worth investigating.

The main issue I had with my 500e was harness related. Best of luck w/ getting things sorted!

 

[samm]

I'm no longer the owner of a 500e, but your symptoms appear to replicate one of my other cars. My CLK55 (208) had an Kleemann SC installed not too long ago. To make a long story short during the install the throttle body cable was disconnected and reconnected a few times. The car was driving perfect for 2-3k miles after the install until one cold morning my car experienced very similar symptoms to yours.

I spoke w/ the Kleemann rep the following day who was aware of this problem and told me the pins in the cable that connect to the throttle body can wear or potentially have some carbon buildup. I opted to replace the pins and rebuild the harness and the car has run fine ever since. I actually took my car to the dealership for the repair and the svc advisor and mechanic thought I was a bit crazy when I told them what to do. They ended up covering most of it under some type of warranty when they realized this was the issue. My out of pocket was a few hundred. I know its a long shot although I get the feeling your problem is throttle related. The reason I am skeptical is because your symptoms were a result of changing spark plugs.. The guys on this site are beyond experts when it comes to these cars; I am sure they will be able to let you know if this might be worth investigating.

The main issue I had with my 500e was harness related. Best of luck w/ getting things sorted!

Thank you kindly for sharing your experience. I will certainly be checking the connectors and also the gasket between the MAF and Electronic Throttle. I did soray stsrted fluid around it and nothing affected the idle. But I'll also do a careful visual.

I will also change all modules one by one and see if there is an effect.

Will of course always update as we may end up helping someone out in the future with these replies! [emoji4]

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[RPB81]

Sure thing, thanks. I felt like it might be worth your while to check the connections around the TB. Sometimes the simple things can be overlooked. The level of expertise on this site far exceeds my knowledge of these cars, but wanted to post after recently experiencing very similar symptoms on my MB.

I hope everything works itself out for you in a timely manner. GL!

 

[samm]

Sure thing, thanks. I felt like it might be worth your while to check the connections around the TB. Sometimes the simple things can be overlooked. The level of expertise on this site far exceeds my knowledge of these cars, but wanted to post after recently experiencing very similar symptoms on my MB.

I hope everything works itself out for you in a timely manner. GL!

Thanks!


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[samm]

Ok chaps
Tested 3 LH modules, 3 base mod, 2 Abs, 2 TTLLR.

Problem is stil there. Shut down at about 60 or 65 degrees.

I cannot imagine spark plugs being faulty. They are the only thing left that I have not reviisited since this problem started.

So I will, like a lunatic, buy NEW spark plugs once again so that I can rule it out.

I have not screwed the 7mm screws on the gasket between the ETA and MAF. I sprayed starter fluid all around the gasket and nothing changed. I sprayed it into the MAF and of course idle dropped as expected.

Is 60 or 65 degress when this engine goes into Closed loop??
[emoji848]

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[gsxr]

There's no way spark plugs would cause a shutdown at ~60°C consistently.

Have you disconnected the O2 sensor yet, as a test?

 

[samm]

There's no way spark plugs would cause a shutdown at ~60°C consistently.

Have you disconnected the O2 sensor yet, as a test?

Well Dave ive lost my way on this problem now. All logic has been exhausted [emoji16]

I am studying for some very heavy exam right now. Wish i had the time to jack up the car and quickly disconnect that bloody o2 sensor.

Reason that has not been a priority is because the car was not switching off with this same o2 sensor on the car. But now that i am lost I will be disconnecting it, probably next weekend now due to work and study..

I sprayed starter fluid over all the hoses I could see. No difference.

This is some electronic problem that reacts the same way everytime.

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[samm]

well put another new O2 sensor, not spliced wires. Same issue. I will be looking to replace the fuse holder as it is corroded in several unreachable areas. Will also replace the pins on the 38 pin diagnostic port as there is corrosion there too.

Would a faulty fuel pump relay do this? Ignition switch?

 

[samm]

It has got to be electrical because the engine start immediately every time it stalls, but then it just stalls again after a few seconds.

 

[gsxr]

Have you been able to get a fuel pressure gauge connected to the rail, to watch fuel pressure when it stalls? I'm REALLY curious about that.

 

[samm]

I need to pass by and get the adapter for the shroeder valve.. I hope to do so this week. I was very busy with studies the past 3 weeks. Now I hope to make faster progress

 

[samm]

Hey Dave my car is a non ASR. Does it have a component known as Electronic Accelerator Pedal Actuator (M16/1)?

 

[gsxr]

Hey Dave my car is a non ASR. Does it have a component known as Electronic Accelerator Pedal Actuator (M16/1)?

Ummmm.... sort of. Explanation below:

ASR cars have an ETA known as M16/1, EA/CC/ISC (Electronic Accelerator / Cruise Control / Idle Speed Control); controlled by E-GAS module N4/1.
http://www.w124-zone.com/downloads/MB CD/W124/w124CD1/Program/ETM/2430400.pdf

Non-ASR cars have an ETA known as M16/2, CC/ISC (Cruise Control / Idle Speed Control); controlled by T/LLR module N4/3.
http://www.w124-zone.com/downloads/MB CD/W124/w124CD1/Program/ETM/2430500.pdf

Both ETA's appear the same externally, but have different internal functions mechanically and electrically. Both ETA's have an internal "Safety contact switch (fuel pump control)", M16/1s1 or M16/2s1 respectively. I'm not sure exactly how this works, but I find the switch name interesting. Check out the link above for the non-ASR version to see the schematic of the ETA and how it connects to the T/LLR module (N4/3).

 

[samm]

well I tell you what, after looking at the electrical diagram on the link you sent I see that there may be a possibility that the corroded pins at the 38 pin diagnostic terminal AND the corroded (partially) fuse box could be causing some electrical disturbance.

Fuel Pump control? That could be something. OF course cutting out at just over 60 degrees seems like it is unrelated...

 

[samm]

so I see the A/C is connected to pin 1 and poin 7. As the attached image shows (38 pin connector)

I have the ground wire cut on the AC compressor (accidentally cut it and its hard to reach at the moment). This could be doing something in relation to idle and the AUX fans running continuously??

 

[samm]

[video=youtube;jbWfSVKq_Q4]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jbWfSVKq_Q4[/video]

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[samm]

Hey
Dave here is the fuel pressure test. Please watch it especially at the end where the fuel pressure goes up slightly as it starts to shut down.... than ks!

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[samm]

So I just converted the psi to bar so:

Engine running is 49 psi so 3.38 BAR

engine running with vacuum disconnected at Fuel Pressure Regulator is 59 psi so 4.07 BAR.

from everything I've read these values are healthy.

As the engine reaches about 65 degrees Celsius and starts to shutdown the fuel pressure jumps briefly to 58 psi(4 BAR) then when it's shut down it drops and remains at 52 psi.

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[Klink]

The slight pressure rise that you see is probably simply occurring as the injectors are being switched off. Your first impressions are correct. The test shows that it’s not a fuel pressure issue.

 

[samm]

The slight pressure rise that you see is probably simply occurring as the injectors are being switched off. Your first impressions are correct. The test shows that it’s not a fuel pressure issue.

Thanks Klink

Do you think the safety fuel shutoff inside the nonAsr ETA is shutting off fuel?

I'm stumped now. I know that I could not properly burp the cooling system because of my blower not working. But in my experience that would lead to overheating not shutdown...


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[samm]

Could a corroded fuse box be doing this?

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[gsxr]

The slight pressure rise that you see is probably simply occurring as the injectors are being switched off. Your first impressions are correct. The test shows that it’s not a fuel pressure issue.

Klink is correct. Your test proves the engine is not shutting off due to lack of fuel supply. The pressure rise is due to engine vacuum dropping as the RPM's drop to zero, assuming the FPR vacuum hose was connected at the time.

Do you think the safety fuel shutoff inside the nonAsr ETA is shutting off fuel?

No. If it was shutting off fuel, the fuel pressure would have dropped near zero.

I'm stumped now.

Me too. I'm out of ideas without having a digital scanner to view live data. Without live data, all you can do is swap parts.

 

[samm]

Klink is correct. Your test proves the engine is not shutting off due to lack of fuel supply. The pressure rise is due to engine vacuum dropping as the RPM's drop to zero, assuming the FPR vacuum hose was connected at the time.



No. If it was shutting off fuel, the fuel pressure would have dropped near zero.



Me too. I'm out of ideas without having a digital scanner to view live data. Without live data, all you can do is swap parts.

Thanks Dave,

At least I can rule out the safety fuel shutoff in the TLLR Module.

I am going to have to tow the car from the busy road where it has been for a couple months to a safer quieter place to work on it.

I did not change the distributor caps but I did change the insulators and rotors. I heavily believe that this is not the issue because the engine shuts down like clockwork.

I installed a new Gasket between the MAF and ETA. nothing changed. Physically inspected all vacuum lines. Replaced most of them a while back.

I wonder if the CRANKshaft sensor could be slightly faulty? The only thing that leads me to think it's ok is that the car does restart for a few seconds after shutoff. It doesn't just crank and not fire.

Could the The camshaft position sensor do this?

Partially corroded fuse box?

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[samm]

I took a look at the spark plugs that were in the car when it used to stay running and not shutdown- the pic shows FR8 something.
I know everywhere on the forums we are told to put F8 non resistor plugs due to the wire having resistors.

I'm just thinking that the car was running with fr8 and then the stalling issue started after putting in the f
F8dc4.
May be worth the 20 or so dollars to experiment and install the resistor ones again? What if the wires installed don't have the correct resistance? Maybe I can check them...

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[black-55]

I know your MAF appears good. Just as mine did.

Engine ran well at idle from cold until temp hit 80 degrees, and abruptly shut off. No drama, just off. No restart until a few hours later. And so on. For months while I searched this forum and everywhere else including German and other forums.

I replaced everything, checked, cleaned, tested everything including coils, grounds, modules, harnesses, fuel relay, crank sensor...yada yada. Pulled codes til I was blue.

P****d I flat bedded it to the dealer. After 2 weeks as they discovered everything I already did, they replaced the MAF. Refurbed Bosch unit would have cost me around $345 after core charge. They charged $900 for all the work and the same refurbed Bosch MAF. Almost 2 years ago. Never had the problem since.

I never thought the MAF was an issue cause it started and ran for several minutes. Had to be something else.

 

[gsxr]

Sam, can't remember if you've tried this, but disconnect the MAF and see if the problem remains. The engine will run in a "fixed operating mode" with the MAF disconnected. This should prove if the MAF is faulty or not.

You could swap out the plugs if you want, but I'll be a monkey's uncle (or, Kent's nephew) if the plugs are causing an abrubt shutoff precisely at 60C every time.

 

[samm]

Hahaha! Dave you made me laugh!

Thank you for your post, I actually hope you come up with any other suggestions...sadly I've tried 2 different MAF and I've tried just disconnecting it and the engi e shuts off exactly on time just past 60 degrees

I am really really regretting buying this car now. M119 engine has some expensive parts. Even when many are used the costs still add up.

I am very close to giving up as I have had the car for several months and am unable to drive it.

It feels like a great car with only 45k miles. Transmission goes into Reverse instantly and all that. Feels new. :-(

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[samm]

Sam, can't remember if you've tried this, but disconnect the MAF and see if the problem remains. The engine will run in a "fixed operating mode" with the MAF disconnected. This should prove if the MAF is faulty or not.

You could swap out the plugs if you want, but I'll be a monkey's uncle (or, Kent's nephew) if the plugs are causing an abrubt shutoff precisely at 60C every time.

Who is Kent anyway?

I am going to replace the Fuse box and start checking all Ground points for corrosion. Water crept into the car while it was stored due to blocked drainage. So I will go through it and at least get all that stuff sorted.

At least of I sell it it will have less problems than When I bought it :-/

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[samm]

SO I had a look at my ignition coils. One of the has a big D on it. Thats not one of the proper manufacturers. Is it Duralast? Autozone own brand??

 

[gsxr]

I think you can safely rule out a number of things based on your testing, and the fact the engine runs smoothly (no misfires). Caps / rotors / insulators / plugs are all extremely unlikely. Ditto for the ignition coil (not sure what the "D" logo is). Camshaft position sensor also shouldn't cause a shutdown.

Since fuel supply is ok, clearly the issue is electrical. I'm just not sure what exactly, without live data from a digital scanner. If you've already swapped LH modules, have you swapped the EZL also? The crank sensor is a decent possibility, if you have one to try out. Also a good idea to check electrical connections / grounds but it seems unlikely those would only cause an issue at exactly 60C.

Kent is the owner of MBSource up in Bellingham, WA. He used to specialize in older (70's, 80's) cars but has started to migrate into newer models. GerryVZ has family in Seattle and I've always suspected they are related...

 

[samm]

oh Kent Bergsma from youtube! Haha!

Ok I have tried different EZL and all modules. Exact same prob.

I found the D being Duralast, Autozone brand. Looks new but I will change it if I can get the car to work.

My ETA is a 2004 build but as I noted from many of your posts, the date alone is just not enough to conclude that the ETA is working properly. I keep thinking that the ETA is shutting down the car. But then I think to myself, this only happened after changing Spark plugs and the other stuff I did that day (I have reversed everything I did except for the plugs.

Crank sensor is a hundred dollar gamble so I will try and eliminate any ground wire issues forst. I replaced the X11 38 pin connetor yesterday due to corossion (of course this was not the problem).

Will change fuse box and see about the CKP...

Thank you Dave

 

[samm]

Ok so I ordered the CKP sensor (107) and the same wrong resistor fr8dc+ plugs that were in the car before. Only cost 15 so I can take them out and throw if they don't solve it.

I have Bosch ignition wires on the car that were installed by previous owner not too many miles ago. I need to check the resistance across those wires.

 

[samm]

Still waiting on my other sparks and cranks sensor.

Changed the fuse box today as well as the fuel pump relay. No difference.

Fuse box is quite a headache to replace!!

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[samm]

So while the car was running I disconnected the Left bank Ignition coil and the idle dropped to a respectable level but of course sounded like a flat four engine. But it still stalled just over 60 degrees.

Not exactly sure what I was hoping to achieve with that test [emoji16]

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[jhodg5ck]

Got a pic of those coils? Never saw a duralast coil for a 119. Also curious if there are signs of voltage leaking out of them at all.

You can jumper the fuel pump relay under the rear seat if you want to be SURE the pumps aren't stopping first....

30 and 87 are the pins.


Jono

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[samm]

Hi Jono

Here is a shot if the Duralast coils.
They irritate me as I just don't know that they work properly for sure being Duralast..

Bosch wouldn't make it for them would they?



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[gsxr]

Here is a shot if the Duralast coils. They irritate me as I just don't know that they work properly for sure being Duralast..

Bosch wouldn't make it for them would they?

They could, but if so, they would look identical to Bosch. The photos above look substantially different than the Bosch (pics attached).

I really doubt the coils are the cause of your issue, however, do you have a used set of coils you could pop in there for testing?

 

[samm]

Does anyone know if a Crankshaft sensor has a Build year on it?

This is my one it says 01 13. Is this a 2013 sensor?



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[samm]

They could, but if so, they would look identical to Bosch. The photos above look substantially different than the Bosch (pics attached).

I really doubt the coils are the cause of your issue, however, do you have a used set of coils you could pop in there for testing?

Ok that's very different.
I agree I don't think could would cause such an issue. I will be changing them once I get the car running properly. Fingers crossed.

Still waiting for my crank sensor as I'm thinking maybe the sensor has an intermittent fault?

I've really run out of ideas.

I did the experiment that Jono sugggested. Car shut down at the same time and the fuel pumps were still running (they were jumpered)..

So this pretty much conclusively proves that it is not the fuel safety shutoff or any fuel issue. Of course my fuel pressure test also was very indicative of it not being a fuel supply issue.

Bloody FCP Euro have really let me down with their slow delivery. AutohausAZ always ship same or next day via regular UPS and it arrives in 2 days to LA. I haven't been able to change sparks or the crank sensor.

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[gsxr]

FCP's free economy shipping is what I call "Donkey Post". Plan on 7-10 days, probably business days. Pretty likely it was sent via FedEx Smart Post, or UPS Mail Innovations, or something similar. Not the best option when you're in a hurry...

 

[samm]

FCP's free economy shipping is what I call "Donkey Post". Plan on 7-10 days, probably business days. Pretty likely it was sent via FedEx Smart Post, or UPS Mail Innovations, or something similar. Not the best option when you're in a hurry...

Hahaha

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[Lowman]

Thanks Dave,

At least I can rule out the safety fuel shutoff in the TLLR Module.

I am going to have to tow the car from the busy road where it has been for a couple months to a safer quieter place to work on it.

I did not change the distributor caps but I did change the insulators and rotors. I heavily believe that this is not the issue because the engine shuts down like clockwork.

I installed a new Gasket between the MAF and ETA. nothing changed. Physically inspected all vacuum lines. Replaced most of them a while back.

I wonder if the CRANKshaft sensor could be slightly faulty? The only thing that leads me to think it's ok is that the car does restart for a few seconds after shutoff. It doesn't just crank and not fire.

Could the The camshaft position sensor do this?

Partially corroded fuse box?

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have you measured the cam and crank sensor resistance value?when cold...AND when it shuts down.?does the car start up straight away after it stalls?im sorry if i havent seen it..if you have mentinoned this in an earlier post..

Also like mentioned before...without live data..there is only so much you can do.Your issue is clearly electrical and ignition related...as seen on the fuel pressure test.what you could do is to connect a test probe on one of the spark plugs..to see if the spark dissapears when car is shutting down.
when it comes to crank sensor resistance value..it should be around 900ohms...or even a tad higher...if seeing approx 1300ohms....it is defective as a rule of thumb.that is often the territory of when a crank sensor fails...

Also..this reminds me abit of the fault i had on my car..in some way..or at least..you can have a more serious power issue to the LH unit.so all depending on "does it start afterwards".....you should maybe consider tracing a power issue to the engine ecu.It would be interesting ..and at this point most necessary seeing some fault codes..

 

[samm]

https://youtu.be/k8mpz7l2xIE

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[video=youtube_share;k8mpz7l2xIE]https://youtu.be/k8mpz7l2xIE[/video]

 

[samm]

Guys the car stayed running after I put in the RESISTOR sparks!!!!

I now firmly believe that the resistance of the Duralast ignition coils is too low or something because the ignition cables, and everything else is Bosch.

The previous owner must have been in a desperate position and ended up buying from Autozone to get Duralast coils!

Now I am ordering the correct Bosch coils. But could someone please tell me how the coils are supposed to be measured for their resistance?

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[samm]

Lowman it did start immediately afterwards but used to shut down as soon as it reached around 65 degrees
But ease see my post above. The car is running although there IS A MISFIRE and I suspect it's the coils

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[Klink]

With this revelation, I definitely think you could be on the right path with replacing those coils with the correct parts. It could be that the coils have incorrect resistance and/or are missing some other kind of electronic “tuning“ device such as a suppression diode. It would certainly be unusual but it’s not inconceivable that something about the ignition coil and/or the reflected voltage in the primary circuits are causing your EZL/ignition control unit to overheat and shut off. On that subject, how is your ignition control unit mounted? Is it firmly bolted onto the left side inner fender as it should be. Is there a film of heat transfer paste between it and the inner fender?