Upgrading/preventive maintenane ignition system...Coils n such

[lowman]

Upgrading/preventive maintenance ignition system...Coils n such

hey there
I want to upgrade my ignition system on my 1992 500e..and i want to swap out the old coils...and at least start from there..

is there a certain brand of coils to go for..or to be avoided?

also when it comes to spark plug wires..any recomendations?
i havent measured the ones on the car yet..but i can SEE that they are very much likely to be the originals as it has that yellow plasticy clearcoat on them still....


thanx in advance for replies

 

[samiam44]

Bosch coils (amazon) and for the wires- Behr. You can get just the cables made up and re-use the resistor ends ~ $155.



Michael

 

[lowman]

so Bosch you would say is the only suitable coil for our cars?or...
i think i have some brand called "Bremi" or "Behr" available at where i work..heard of that brand?

 

[jaymanek]

Behr are ok but breni I have had trouble with...

 

[gsxr]

Bosch or Beru coils (the Beru appear to be re-labeled Bosch).

Beru wires and spark plug boots. Avoid the aftermarket Bosch wire sets. OE/dealer wires are good.

I am personally not a fan of Bremi products but others on the forum have had good success.

There are no Behr ignition components... Behr generally makes HVAC parts.

 

[lowman]

Bosch or Beru coils (the Beru appear to be re-labeled Bosch).

Beru wires and spark plug boots. Avoid the aftermarket Bosch wire sets. OE/dealer wires are good.

I am personally not a fan of Bremi products but others on the forum have had good success.

There are no Behr ignition components... Behr generally makes HVAC parts.

Thanx for advice

By the way...Dave....is it possible for me to use this EZL..?we have a deal..but i have one laying around you know...so maybe you can check it for me..number is

015 545 60 32.....from an e420...


cheers

 

[Klink]

Bosch or Beru coils (the Beru appear to be re-labeled Bosch).

Beru wires and spark plug boots. Avoid the aftermarket Bosch wire sets. OE/dealer wires are good.

I am personally not a fan of Bremi products but others on the forum have had good success.

There are no Behr ignition components... Behr generally makes HVAC parts.

what Gixxer said. Also, I think that samiam simply mis-typed "Beru" as "Behr" He knows the difference, for sure.

There is nothing to "upgrade" here. Coils do diminish in optput over time, and do sometimes short, so pre-emptive replacement isn't crazy, but even that it largely unnecessary, IMO.

FYI everyone, the factory wires have a nearly unlimited life span unless they get physical "mechanical" or chemical damage. The suppressor resistors in the spark plug ends do go open circuit occasionally and the resulting huge voltage spike is what causes the external sparking that some see and faslely attribute to failed wire insulation. Don't replace your "wires". They are almost never a problem, the suppressor spark plug ends are the buggaboos on these engines.

That being said, good "wire sets" can often be had for less than the price of the ends alone. USA dealers have available nicely done Bosch "aftermarket" type sets under the part number B Q4 15 0036. As opposed to most over the counter dealer parts, those actually have their own "lifetime" warranty, however the set costs your dealer just over $300.00 to get them in his door, so they aren't cheap.

No end of other sources are also available. The former frequent contributor
ClarkZ-71 also makes and sells complete sets out of the original factory type wires and ends.

 

[lowman]

thank you so much Klink.

yeah i know its kinda unnecessary...but i do have this "dip" in the idle..like it misses a beat every couple of 30..seconds..and i want to adress it..and replacing 23 year old electric components is a way of ensuring proper function of the engine.though there aint nothing wrong in that sense with my car...i just want to make shure everything is spot on when it comes to allll electric components....and by now..you all should know how ridicoulsly picky i am with my cars. though some people are even worse..hehe

 

[Klink]

thank you so much Klink.

yeah i know its kinda unnecessary...but i do have this "dip" in the idle..like it misses a beat every couple of 30..seconds..and i want to adress it..and replacing 23 year old electric components is a way of ensuring proper function of the engine.though there aint nothing wrong in that sense with my car...i just want to make shure everything is spot on when it comes to allll electric components....and by now..you all should know how ridicoulsly picky i am with my cars. though some people are even worse..hehe

The very first thing to do about that single intermittent misfire is open your spark plug gaps to between 1 and 1.1mm. Do that first. That will fix most of those. If that produces no improvement, or actually makes things worse, proceed with your attention to the rest of the system.

 

[lowman]

The very first thing to do about that single intermittent misfire is open your spark plug gaps to between 1 and 1.1mm. Do that first. That will fix most of those. If that produces no improvement, or actually makes things worse, proceed with your attention to the rest of the system.

oh?....really? ill check em tomorrow indeed.

 

[gsxr]

Ditto everything Klink said above. I too believe the wire sets are replaced far too often, and generally for the wrong reasons. And, the aftermarket Bosch wire sets with the light gray colored insulation are fragile - the gray insulation tears far too easily when inserting or removing from the wire tray. The Beru wires are much more durable, IMO.

By the way...Dave....is it possible for me to use this EZL..?we have a deal..but i have one laying around you know...so maybe you can check it for me..number is

015 545 60 32.....from an e420...

The engine may start & run with this EZL, but it does not have the correct timing maps... it is designed for a smaller displacement, higher-compression engine. I wouldn't use it except temporarily in an emergency (assuming it works - I've never tested this particular part number in any E500E).

 

[lowman]

Ditto everything Klink said above. I too believe the wire sets are replaced far too often, and generally for the wrong reasons. And, the aftermarket Bosch wire sets with the light gray colored insulation are fragile - the gray insulation tears far too easily when inserting or removing from the wire tray. The Beru wires are much more durable, IMO.



The engine may start & run with this EZL, but it does not have the correct timing maps... it is designed for a smaller displacement, higher-compression engine. I wouldn't use it except temporarily in an emergency (assuming it works - I've never tested this particular part number in any E500E).

thankx mate.
Ill send you another email right now...and if you would be kind..can you verify the paypal adress ....

cheers

 

[Klink]

Ditto everything Klink said above. I too believe the wire sets are replaced far too often, and generally for the wrong reasons. And, the aftermarket Bosch wire sets with the light gray colored insulation are fragile - the gray insulation tears far too easily when inserting or removing from the wire tray. The Beru wires are much more durable, IMO.

I never tried routing a set through the trays on a M119, only one or two individual wires because they were too short to put a later version plug end on, because, like I said, the actual problem is almost never the wires themselves. Installing an entire pre-assembled wire set on a M119 would have to seriously suck.

But it seems to me that everything you said there is true. The Beru sets seem to incorporate the original factory type wire, and that gray outer sheath on the USA sourced Bosch aftermarket sets may have great chemical resistance and whatever, but it does tear easily.

 

[Klink]

The very first thing to do about that single intermittent misfire is open your spark plug gaps to between 1 and 1.1mm. Do that first. That will fix most of those. If that produces no improvement, or actually makes things worse, proceed with your attention to the rest of the system.

oh?....really? ill check em tomorrow indeed.

Do it. It's the best idle quality fix ever for just about any MB...

 

[sheward]

I cured a slight cough at idle by changing the caps. Next time i'll check plugs first.

drew

 

[Klink]

I cured a slight cough at idle by changing the caps. Next time i'll check plugs first.

drew

Well, that is one of the cool things about the plug gap approach. If it makes the idle worse or adds a new problem, you know that there's something else that needs attention.

 

[sheward]

As well as being free vs the price of 2 new caps.

drew

 

[Trae]

Jono and Klink,

It amazes me that so many of the Mercedes "Technicians" do not know about the spark plug gap to cure occasional misfires at idle.

When I mention your method, they respond that they had never heard of that. Of course, I had never heard of it either.

I used to just install the plugs without, gasp, gapping them correctly and wonder why the engine did not respond to my kindness.

Thanks again for supplying the knowledge to make us happy campers with our M119s and M117s!

 

[Klink]

Jono and Klink,

It amazes me that so many of the Mercedes "Technicians" do not know about the spark plug gap to cure occasional misfires at idle.

When I mention your method, they respond that they had never heard of that. Of course, I had never heard of it either.

I used to just install the plugs without, gasp, gapping them correctly and wonder why the engine did not respond to my kindness.

Thanks again for supplying the knowledge to make us happy campers with our M119s and M117s!

Oh, your plugs were probably gapped correctly out of the box at about .032". That is the factory specification for your M117 and M119 engines. It just doesn't work as well as a wider gap most of the time. The wide gap is a completely "off label" prescription. It just happens to work most of the time. When I get the chance, I'll tell y'all how it came about. It's kind of funny...

 

[samiam44]

Yea,


I got one of the Clark71 wire sets- I first raided a pick n pull and came up with a dozen used Beru resistor ends. Clark used all OE parts- Beru wire and the ends crimped on with the factory tool. I highly recommend you lay the leads in the trays without fighting with the ends- then screw them on when you have all the wires situated.


You can read coil voltages with the SDS live data section. They were within range, but on the high side. No need to stress the EZL.



Michael

 

[500AMM]

what Gixxer said.
.........
............
........
No end of other sources are also available. The former frequent contributor
ClarkZ-71 also makes and sells complete sets out of the original factory type wires and ends.

I bought a complete wire set from Clark as well with custom lengths for a better fit. I think he used the recommended wire lengths that Dave has worked out, so great thanks to Gixxerman for that! http://www.500eboard.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6441

The wire set is really well done, built from the best parts with the OE crimp tool and Clarks lifelong experience. I also bought OE spark plugs at the same time, 3 sets for each engine 5.0 and 6.0. These wires goes in the 6.0, despite it's no running issues ATM, except from the never ending "caps & rotor moist syndrome".

BTW - the testing I have done with 3 times more vent ports on the caps seems to give proven results. The SuperMerc has the OE caps and start coughing after 15 min idling from a cold start and need to rest a bit to dry up, while the Limited has bad & worn caps modified with extra vent ports and doesn't suffer from the moisture problem at all. FYI to all, the moisture problem occurs during storage/standstill, but independent of how long time. The problem is climatic conditionally, due to seasonal dew point variations, which varies geographically too. And the running issues increases gradually along with the caps wear due to increasing sensititvty on the contact points.

 

[lowman]

Jono and Klink,

It amazes me that so many of the Mercedes "Technicians" do not know about the spark plug gap to cure occasional misfires at idle.

When I mention your method, they respond that they had never heard of that. Of course, I had never heard of it either.

I used to just install the plugs without, gasp, gapping them correctly and wonder why the engine did not respond to my kindness.

Thanks again for supplying the knowledge to make us happy campers with our M119s and M117s!

Not everyone can know everything
I personally have always checked the plug gap on my high performance ford"s...and usually tighten the gap abit..
but on Mercedes..they usually come pre gapped..or it is NOT a procedure to "Re" gap the plugs...as they are supposed to come pre gapppppppped.

Another thing is that my plugs are spanking brand new...so i really cant see why they would cause this "blip" in the idle speed....but as we all know...you can never know with cars

But i will check mine i guess this weekend...though i reaaally dont wanna pull all the plugs to find them what they are supposed to be..but of course it will be worth to have it checked.
But i have checked prices on new Bosch coils today...and abit confused on "Which" ones to get..as there are two...different parts numbers you are told to use...but it also seemed that you could do with TWO of the same of one of the different parts numbers...

any suggestions?

 

[samiam44]

Nope

Due to space, there is a left bank coil and a right bank coil. Bracket mounting the coil is different.. not the internal coil itself. Ya need one of each.

 

[Klink]

Not everyone can know everything
I personally have always checked the plug gap on my high performance ford"s...and usually tighten the gap abit..
but on Mercedes..they usually come pre gapped..or it is NOT a procedure to "Re" gap the plugs...as they are supposed to come pre gapppppppped.

Another thing is that my plugs are spanking brand new...so i really cant see why they would cause this "blip" in the idle speed....but as we all know...you can never know with cars

But i will check mine i guess this weekend...though i reaaally dont wanna pull all the plugs to find them what they are supposed to be..but of course it will be worth to have it checked.
But i have checked prices on new Bosch coils today...and abit confused on "Which" ones to get..as there are two...different parts numbers you are told to use...but it also seemed that you could do with TWO of the same of one of the different parts numbers...

any suggestions?

Just to repeat, since I may have confused you. Nothing but nothing causes more rough idling and single intermittent misfires in M119 engines than new plugs gapped to spec. Nothing.

It's completely counterintuitive to most people, but it is what happens most of the time.

Your new plugs were "correctly" gapped to the factory specification of around 0.8 mm when you pulled them out of the box.

Please take note that I am suggesting a LARGE deviation from the factory recommended specification. I am saying to open the plug gaps from the factory specification value of 0.8 MM to between 1 and 1.1MM. That will fix the intermittent single "BUMP" misfires at idle just about every time it's tried...

 

[nocfn]

I have done this to my boxed plugs from Honch for both the M119 and the M117... Ready for install (when needed)

 

[lowman]

do you Klink..have a theory behind why opening the cap makes the dip go away?arent you actually making the spark less "powerfull " when opening the gap...or making the coil struggle more to deliver a spark?or am i totally wrong?

 

[Klink]

do you Klink..have a theory behind why opening the cap makes the dip go away?arent you actually making the spark less "powerfull " when opening the gap...or making the coil struggle more to deliver a spark?or am i totally wrong?

Here's a decent thread, and see post #95 for the theory...


http://www.500eboard.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1833&p=111353&viewfull=1#post111353

 

[gsxr]

do you Klink..have a theory behind why opening the cap makes the dip go away?arent you actually making the spark less "powerfull " when opening the gap...or making the coil struggle more to deliver a spark?or am i totally wrong?

Opening the gap makes a larger spark, which helps ignite lean mixtures. In general you want the largest gap possible without causing a misfire at higher RPM / high load / high cylinder pressures. The M119 coils are able to fire the 1.0-1.1mm gap without a problem. Klink can probably explain the technicalities more better than me.

The only concern is if those "over gapped" plugs were used for a very long time, (say, 50-75kmi, far beyond the recommended service interval of 25-30kmi) the gap could increase due to wear, and the even larger gap (say, worn to 1.2-1.4mm) might cause misfiring. I doubt anyone on this forum would let their plugs get that bad so it's probably not an issue.

 

[500AMM]

do you Klink..have a theory behind why opening the cap makes the dip go away?arent you actually making the spark less "powerfull " when opening the gap...or making the coil struggle more to deliver a spark?or am i totally wrong?

Take a look at post #95 in this thread:
http://www.500eboard.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1833

-a-

Uh...I posted in parallel with Klinks post, sorry.

 

[lowman]

i forget sometimes im dealing with a NA engine.....im so used to dealing with Turbo engines..and then it is definetly not good with a larger gap..

but ill dig into the measuring..and see how my plugs are gappppppppped.i dont think i will go further than 1mm,,do not want misfire

 

[Trae]

I never gapped more than .40 on the M119 and .42 on the M117.
Or, 1mm on the M119 and 1.1mm on the M117.

 

[lowman]

I post this video here aswell..as on my thread

Hope you like even though they are the usual babble alot of very little...hopefully some of you may find it usefull or funny...or just plain stupid
Part two and three coming up as soon as they are uploaded

[video=youtube;gJ7Ssj75Lrg]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gJ7Ssj75Lrg[/video]

 

[lowman]

final video in this "series"
Hope you find it useful....and like i said in the video..thank you to GSXR and Klink ..for pointing out a possible cause for this issue.

cheers

[video=youtube;_z1bsvDYrN8]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_z1bsvDYrN8&feature=youtu.be[/video]

 

[Trae]

Glad the gap method worked out for you.
You may now play the 040 theme song!

[youtube]pAgnJDJN4VA[/youtube]

 

[lowman]

 

[2phast]

My car also has the occasional idle miss. It is not present in warm weather (summer months) but now that it has cooled down, its back. New plug wires, plugs, caps, rotors and coils. I will also try to regap the plugs to see if it fixes the problem. Thanks for posting the gapping tip.