Stereo RetroFit Help

[frm1484]

I have a 92 that I just purchased, and am considering trying to reverse the current Blaupunkt Hamburg Head Unit back to a 1492 from Becker with the Aux Input kit. From reading other posts, I understand a 1492 isn't going to be plug and play in a 92 but i am hoping that i am in luck given the following:

- The owner of my car (2 owners ago), added in the blaupunkt head unit and in his FS ad for the car he represented that he got a custom made adaptor from becker to make his blaupunkt "plug-and play" with the factory wiring infrastructure and speakers (becker told me they used to sell these but no longer do), i also have a receipt from him that shows his purchase of a wiring harness from Becker

- Included when i bought the car is the old 1432 head unit and a heavy "black box" that i am presuming was an amp in the factory setup and the original 1432 head unit only sent out a preamp signal but no amplification. If i am correct that this is a factory amp and it has been removed, i am assuming that the speakers are currently running off of the amplification of the aftermarket blaupunkt unit now and the wiring infrastructure going to the old amp is basically being bypassed now due to the wiring adaptor and the blaupunkt HU amplified signal is going directly to the speakers

- Becker guys in NJ claim that if my car does have a "plug and play" adaptor that fits the blaupunkt, I should be able to cut the "clip" that fits to the blaupunkt outputs (which i am guessing won't fit a 1492) and splice in like wire for like wire the adaptor clip that will fit a 1492, plug it into the 1492 which can pass signal over the same infrastructure the blaupunkt used to run the speakers

Does anyone know if the 1492 has internal amplification that can power speakers or does it only put out a preamp signal that needs to go through an amp. Any help with other considerations i should have or how to think through this are also much appreciated

Thanks

 

[carboRS2]

I recently did a very similar job. Bought my car with a horrible alpine and decided to go back to becker.
My old amp was still in the trunk but had to source a new 8pin wire and the rest of connectors.
I'm almost sure the 1492 still needs the amp in the trunk.
The key part in the installation is the 8pin cable. If yours is still there and has not been messed up then everything is much easier.
If not you will have to remove seats and carpet to run the new cable.



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[gsxr]

Whoa, hold on a second, let's take a step back:

1) Your 1992 500E came with a 1432, not a 1492. The 1492 was not used until 1994 model year in USA. Sounds like you have figured this out, which is good.

2) The 1432 and 1492 are COMPLETELY different designs, with different wiring harnesses, amps, functionality, and nothing is interchangeable. If you want to revert back to stock you will need all the 1432 parts, not 1492. The 1432 has the tuner and amplifier in the trunk and zero deck power. The 1492 has internal amplification so it can drive speakers... but sends output to the trunk amp, and the trunk amp feeds all speakers.

3) If you find the harnesses are butchered and cannot be repaired / re-used, and still want to convert to a Becker setup, I would highly recommend sourcing the entire 1492 harness and amps/etc. Jeff (captruff) is parting out a 1995 E420 right now which would be a convenient donor. Problem is you need to remove most of the interior to do this conversion/upgrade. And at that point, I'd skip the 1492 head unit and use a Traffic Pro with in-dash CD and auxiliary input for iPod/etc.

4) If any speakers are aftermarket, and you are using the Becker system, re-install all the factory speakers. They are different ohm ratings which are required to obtain proper level matching and frequency response with the factory amps. This is particularly important with the front door midbass speakers. Becker is correct that you should be able to replace the Blaupunkt with the 1492 and use whatever infrastructure is currently in the car, however this may not be the optimal setup. Pretty much every 1432 system I've heard that has been "modified" with an aftermarket head unit sounds worse than stock, not better....

 

[600Eric]

Re: Stereo Retrofit Help

...Does anyone know if the 1492 has internal amplification that can power speakers or does it only put out a preamp signal that needs to go through an amp. Any help with other considerations i should have or how to think through this are also much appreciated

Your car actually has a Becker 1432 head unit and no it does not have any internal amps. The head unit connects to a receiver mounted in the trunk and there are also two external amplifiers back there as well. (See picture below). Unfortunately with this system unless you are willing to butcher your car (i.e. tear it all out) and start over with after market components you are pretty much stuck with it. There are many threads on the board about sound systems, options, etc. but the consensus with this system seems to be leave everything alone except for the dash speakers and change those out to a set of Rainbows ( http://www.ebay.de/itm/Rainbow-MB-M...00?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_77&hash=item2c6e5150dc ). Kind of a bummer but then again you have that beautiful V8 to listen to instead....





External Amp

 

[frm1484]

Thanks Dave, yes sorry I wasn't very clear on my definition of "retrofit".....wanting to go back to a factory look, understanding that the 1492 was from a 94, So I guess I Don't want to do "true" retrofit back to my 92 config with a 1432 as I understand that stereo is generally a disaster in the first place. Sounds like install pita of going back to a Becker factory correct hu that still requires a separate component amplification, and given all the labor involved (I'm not a good enough wiring ninja to do this myself I dont think) it might be a very expensive way to have the look I want with marginal sound

I Need to remove speaker covers to see what is in there now, but my belief is its factory originals. any tips on removal to make sure not to damage anything or any special tools required besides a flathead to get grills off? Also if they are still the old factory beat 23 yr old speakers and I upgraded to the rainbow cx all around, is impedance on those appropriate to run amplification from an aftermarket hu or small 4-channel external amp?.....while it is a general pet peeve of mine to lose "factory look" stereo set-up, as I did more research last night I started to lean towards considering the following set-up that is much more aftermarket than I initially expected I would ever consider

- remove my blaupunkt Hamburg which looks too "fast and furious" for my tastes and replace with newest blaupunkt brisbane (can see it on crutchfield, but imo is a pretty clean look for an aftermarket unit and should be able to plug in the same harness as I have now on my bkpt Hamburg)
- replace f&r speakers with the rainbow CXs and let HU run them, at first, if not happy can easily add a basic 4x50-75 external amp to make them sing if need be. Have read your perspective on not replacing the rears, but for not that much money I would probably still do it, especially since running factories from aftermarket amplification sounds like it's gonna be goofy impedance setup
- probably will get some sort of powered sub to handle the lows, jl makes a nice self amp'd 8 incher that doesn't take up much truck space and should give me enough bass for my mellow'd out tastes now (haha in high school I had 2-10s in my Vette sitting 6inches behind me!)

Thanks again for all the help guys, very much appreciated by a newb, would be pulling my hair out and losing lots of money trying to figure this out by trial and error

 

[maw1124]

I'm one of those who tore everything out of a '92 and went aftermarket.

I used different speakers than recommended, but left the rears stock, for now at least. I went with an Alpine head unit for the sound shaping, but it came with a bonus. Alpine makes a "power pack" which just snaps onto the back of the head unit and is good for 35x4 to power the cabin. A mono amp in the trunk runs the sub in the trunk. I probably spent too much money on labor to have the interior out, but while it was out everything was steam cleaned (and the center console dyed black) before being put back together.

I've never regretted that decision. The factory look here was a cassette, and that just wasn't happening for me. I kept the museum bits in case someone wants to reinstall them later.

Good luck,

maw

 

[gsxr]

- Don't replace the rear speakers. Stock are VERY good and you are just wasting time and $$$ messing with them. They only provide rear fill anyway.

- The problem with aftermarket amplification is that the door midbass drivers do not play nice due to the impedance issues. BT, DT. If you want to go aftermarket, I'd get the full Jehnert doorboard setup up front (with stock rears), but this is not cheap.

- A powered sub should help, but you'll have some issues with mounting and dialing it in to blend with the in-car speakers. You may get decent low bass, but if you don't have good midrange from the front door speakers, there will be a hole in the response curve.


In my experience, if you are picky about good, balanced sound... the only acceptable solutions are either installing a full factory Becker setup, either 1432 or 1492 (optionally with Rainbows in the dash), or going full aftermarket with Jehnert doorboards/crossovers/drivers. The first option is cheaper, the second may sound a little better if dialed in properly. Both are a lot of work. Side note - Mercedes offered a 4602 dealer accessory upgrade to the 1492, and the Traffic Pros look basically the same except they don't have the "Mercedes-Benz" name on the faceplate. So if you go the 1492 route, a Traffic Pro is pretty close to a period correct upgrade, and IMO it's worth it to get the in-dash CD so you can ditch the trunk changer. (Remember, with the 1492 auxiliary input upgrade, you lose the CD changer capability.)

 

[frm1484]

just want to say thanks for all of the replies, really helpful in figuring this stuff out. So had a chance to explore around my car a little more today and found a few things that led me to a few more questions

- My front door panels do not to have mid bass speakers in them, and seemingly my car just has the front dash and rear deck speakers consistent with how the door panels looked when ECM was advertising the car (see pics below). I confirmed that I do have MB factory rears and fronts

- Pic below is how my fronts look, strange question, but if I replaced them would I have to drill holes to mount the new speaker? (note no screws in the factory speaker basket holding it to the dash, i didn't mess with it to figure out how it was sealed in tight, i think that brass bolt is for holding the dash rather than the speaker)

- My set-up appears to just have had a single AMP/Tuner in the back, and a case for mounting it in the driver side of the trunk behind wheel well (see pics), I can't seem to find any amp that looks like what 600eric posted much less the set up i have read about with a "tuner/brain" for the system and then 2 separate amps (i would assume these would be visible in the trunk area and not require rear seat removal or something else more involved if i had them)?

One note, with regards to the door panels and amp set-up, my car was a relatively early production 92 I think as it has an aug 91 production date, so not sure if this or euro-spec may in anyway account for lack of mid-bass door speakers or different amp setups.

Thanks again for all of the help thus far!

 

[frm1484]

had to post multiple times as pics were to big to upload all at once, more pics

 

[gsxr]

I don't know what the black boxes in the trunk are, but none of that appears to be factory installation. The factory amps are all hidden behind the gray carpet trim panels, not screwed on top of the carpet. Are there Mercedes logos or part number on any of that stuff? If so can you post the info? Might have been some sort of dealer-installed equipment, like the CD changers in USA were dealer-installed. Or, possibly, the early Euro cars had some really funky audio equipment. (??)

Dash speakers appear factory, you can either leave them alone or upgrade to Rainbows, which use the same mounting type (no screws).

Odd that the front doors have no speakers... maybe that was a Euro thing. If there is no wiring inside the doors either, yes you would need to either cut holes and run wiring for a custom installation... or leave the doors with no speakers... or convert to the factory door speakers/grilles... or install Jehnert doorboards. Depends how crazy you want to get with the stereo, how much you want to spend, how picky you are about the sound, etc...

 

[Zuffenhausen]

Never seen the speaker delete in the doors either

 

[nocfn]

Is the black box in left trunk well for the phone?

 

[maw1124]

Or, possibly, the early Euro cars had some really funky audio equipment. (??) Odd that the front doors have no speakers... maybe that was a Euro thing.

Must be a Euro-spec thing. My USA Jan '92 build has speakers in the doors, which I just had upgraded to something that fit. I was blessed to have some relatively inexpensive yet high quality "competition car audio" types handy, and they did it all. It's satisfactory, given the money I was willing to spend on car audio (which I learned in my early years will never match home audio anyway).

GSXR's point about the sub in the trunk cannot be overstated, if you don't want to hack up the car (which I did not). I ended up with a 10" in a custom built box in that rear driver side wheel well, running off its own amp where the changer used to live. The key was to pick a "musical" sub, which could reach high enough for me to take stress off the cabin speakers by crossing them over at 100Hz (everything below that goes to the sub). I wish I could have crossed it over even higher, maybe 180Hz. Again, satisfactory for what I was willing to pay, but I had to play with the sound shaping in the head unit, and the boost and gain on the sub amp, to eliminate any holes in frequency response and more importantly, smooth out the transition from cabin to sub. It took a while to get it dialed in.

Since I finished my setup, JLAudio has come out with a thin-mount 10" sub that just "may" fit in the rear deck between the head rests with a large enough custom fiberglass enclosure (min .5 cubic feet) to make it stealthy and a worthwhile gambit. I'm tempted to try it, but right now I'm just tired of fiddling with it and am willing to leave well enough alone. See, http://www.jlaudio.com/10tw3-d4-car-audio-tw3-subwoofer-drivers-92184. If they extend that new technology to an 8" (or someone comes out with thinner box material), they may have me.

I mention this because if you move the subwoofer into the cabin, you may get away with no door speakers, provided you have enough sound shaping ability in your head unit. I hope some of this babbling helps.

Cheers,

maw

 

[frm1484]

The black box is def a mb part, has part numbers and mb stickers on it (will get a pic). Also there is a grey carpet contraption to cover the standing black box assembly I had in the picture, I just had it removed for the pic. It is a factory piece that matches the carpet in the trunk and has some unique looking clips that securely fasten it over the black box.

As far as I can tell, my car only has 4 speakers and had 1 amp. The more research I have done, I think I am less inclined to put a sub in the rear as I realized today that the gas tank sits right behind the back seat and inbetween the trunk and interior likely absorbing a decent bit of low frequency sounds when full between the trunk and cabin so probably would need more thump than I want to be putting out to reach cabin and I take Dave and maw's point about likely getting a step function in low end response that may sound goofy for the dollars spent

the jehnert doorboards are intriguing me if I go all aftermarket and I would probably just do those to cover the front and coaxials in the rear deck (Dave don't think I have the same dual tweeter rears other cars do) and just rely on the 4 6.5inchers in the doorboards crossed over to give me enough musical bass for my tastes (mostly classic rock). Anyone have experience with the doorboards and if they provide a nice musical full spectrum response? They seem straight forward, I wouldn't do install myself, but should any competent audio shop be able to install and wire them up to an external amp and not have me worried it's gonna get butchered?

 

[carboRS2]

My car is a very early model, 91 originally sold in Spain. It has no door speakers.
All the pre-facelift I've seen here have no door speakers.
So if yours is a euro unit is normal it has only 4 speakers. Do you have the fader roulette in the center dash (behind gear stick)?


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[gsxr]

The black box is def a mb part, has part numbers and mb stickers on it (will get a pic). Also there is a grey carpet contraption to cover the standing black box assembly I had in the picture, I just had it removed for the pic. It is a factory piece that matches the carpet in the trunk and has some unique looking clips that securely fasten it over the black box.

maw is right. Gotta be a Euro thang. All US-spec .034/.036 had identical equipment for a given model year (1432 in 92-93, 1492 in 94-95). Sorry, I don't know Jack about the Euro stereo options. And I never noticed the ECM car didn't have door speakers!

As far as I can tell, my car only has 4 speakers and had 1 amp. The more research I have done, I think I am less inclined to put a sub in the rear as I realized today that the gas tank sits right behind the back seat and inbetween the trunk and interior likely absorbing a decent bit of low frequency sounds when full between the trunk and cabin so probably would need more thump than I want to be putting out to reach cabin and I take Dave and maw's point about likely getting a step function in low end response that may sound goofy for the dollars spent

You can put a sub in the trunk on the side, as in my '94 (click here and here), but that's serious $$$ to do properly. Subs in the rear deck would be ideal, but as maw noted that's even more $$$$ to do properly, and also requires chopping stuff up which cannot be un-chopped. Depends how much of a basshead you are.

the jehnert doorboards are intriguing me if I go all aftermarket and I would probably just do those to cover the front and coaxials in the rear deck (Dave don't think I have the same dual tweeter rears other cars do) and just rely on the 4 6.5inchers in the doorboards crossed over to give me enough musical bass for my tastes (mostly classic rock). Anyone have experience with the doorboards and if they provide a nice musical full spectrum response? They seem straight forward, I wouldn't do install myself, but should any competent audio shop be able to install and wire them up to an external amp and not have me worried it's gonna get butchered?

If you go all aftermarket, the Jehnert setup is the way to go, IMO. You can buy it with matching dash speakers (midrange/tweeter) to go along with the midbass doorboards. The Jehnerts provide an acceptable amount of bottom end, you won't rattle any windows, but it's a more than the stock USA door speakers. It's a lot of work to install everything properly, and they need a pretty hefty amount of amplification. I have Jehnerts in two cars and I really like them, they are a huge improvement over the 1986-1989 factory stereo with no door speakers, but not enough of an improvement over the factory USA 400E/500E systems to justify the expense (IMO). But, since you are working with a neutered Euro setup, the Jehnerts make more sense. They'll cost about $1000-$1200 for the front kit, plus installation, plus amplifier(s). Some photos are here.

If you haven't seen this thread yet, check it out. This ERASE guy went seriously bonkers with his Jehnert install, after being disappointed with the Rainbows (mentioned in post 1):
http://www.benzworld.org/forums/w12...87-erases-determined-w124-stereo-journey.html

I'd get a pair of the factory rear dual-tweeter speakers to upgrade the rear deck, available from any junkyard 400E/E420, Jeff (captruff) might have a pair from the E420 he's currently parting out. No point in dumping a bunch of dough into rear fill, and most aftermarket speakers won't fit properly.

 

[frm1484]

Looks like you had issues with the jehnert mounting plate for the dash mid driver and tweeter? would have expected it to be engineered to be a pretty exact fit given its tailored specifically for the w124

 

[8899]

Some photos are here.

Do you have a .pdf of your cardboard/wood dash template?

 

[gsxr]

Looks like you had issues with the jehnert mounting plate for the dash mid driver and tweeter? would have expected it to be engineered to be a pretty exact fit given its tailored specifically for the w124

Yes, but that was 10+ years ago. They may have modified their baffle plate or tweeter by now.

Do you have a .pdf of your cardboard/wood dash template?

No, sorry... didn't think about it at the time.

I'd like to try those Scan Speak drivers in the dash but $600/pair... ouch:
http://meniscusaudio.com/scan-speak-12m4631g-p-465.html

 

[8899]

I'd like to try those Scan Speak drivers in the dash

So, similar to your dash install, you would use the Scan Speak drivers and then also add in the Jehnert tweaters?

A group-buy of 5 pairs gets the price down to $500/pair here:

https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/approx-4-midrange/scanspeak-revelator-12m/4631g-4.5-midrange/

 

[gsxr]

I'd try to copy ERASE's setup. I'd have to re-read his thread to figure out if he used the Jehnert tweeter, a different tweeter, or left out the tweeter completely. My only concern is the relatively lower power handling of the ScanSpeak (40w).

 

[maw1124]

I'd try to copy ERASE's setup. I'd have to re-read his thread to figure out if he used the Jehnert tweeter, a different tweeter, or left out the tweeter completely. My only concern is the relatively lower power handling of the ScanSpeak (40w).

That was quite a setup. Mine is positively miserly in comparison. I kinda want to hear the ScanSpeaks myself.

I'd also like to see how the Jehnert doors sound with more modern 4" dash models (I used JLAudio TR400, not Kicker). GSXR makes a good point about that being a long time ago. For 40W, you may find good options that work over those frequencies for a lot less money today. It's really the cabin [bass and] midbass fitment that Jehnert solves.

Cheers,

maw

 

[7delta]

40w isn't horrible at midrange frequencies. And your ears are only a few feet from the speakers. We are talking about being in a closed cabin unless windows are open. And if you lower the noise floor by deadening the cabin you'd theoretically being hearing more music making your brain think it's louder. JMO
As far as the black box in the trunk.. I have one very similar in my 560sec it was for a phone.
Cheers.

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[8899]

It looked to me like he left out the tweeter completely, running the ScanPeak like a dome tweeter for certain frequencies (e.g., >250Hz).

Difficult thread to follow, but I think he did use the Jehnert tweeters up front along with the ScanSpeak drivers:

I took the Jehnerts and jammed them as far forward as possible towards the start of the windshield.

Most car audio buffs will tell you to try to avoid early reflections... particular 5 ms RELECTIONS as they smear the sound stage and cause all sorts of issues when they combine and compete with the DIRECT sound..In fact our brains block/erase the second sound reflections (this takes lots of brain audio processing power...every wonder why your head hurts after being in a loud restaurant or starbucks for 2 hours?)

So short term reflections cause listener fatigue when combined with the direct sound. I noticed that the “premium� stock system in our 1994- 1995 w124’s was not really fatiguing but just wasn’t perfect sounding.. but the fact that it was not fatiguing gave me a clue.

So in an effect to eliminate the time delays associated with tweeter’s (as Jehnert gives you tweeters to install- our original drivers had a whizzer cone) I decided…. Since I can not eliminate the reflected sound completely (5 milliseconds means nothing can be reflected until after 5 FEET!) I decided… since here was not much attenuation from glass reflection….. to eliminated one of the sources of the time differences… My solution.. was to eliminate the DIRECT sound as much as possible and try to make it ALL RELECTIVE SOUND. I am happy to say that this strategy has worked better than expected.. making it all sound like direct sound without reflection. Pretty damn cool!

I jammed the tweeters to be as close to where the front windshieldmeets the glass and used “blu-tack� poster putty (never hardens or melts in the sun) to mold around the tweeter to make it flush with the dash and fill in around that. This also dampens the vibrations caused by the Midrange driver. It cuts down on sound diffraction too ..(The enemy of good sound) So the windshield now acts as an acoustic lens extension. The putty really helped make this work..and my sound stage is as taller than the top of the windshield and goes much wider than the boundaries of the car!


It's just hard to tell if he fit both the tweeter and driver under the dash speaker grill similar to what GSXR did.

 

[gsxr]

I'd also like to see how the Jehnert doors sound with more modern 4" dash models (the Kickers I used). GSXR makes a good point about that being a long time ago.

Jehnert supplies MB Quart drivers for the 6.5" midbass and 4" dash midrange, at least they used to. The tweeter was not Quart, since Quart famously used titanium domes which were known to be harsh sounding... instead, Jehnert used a soft-dome tweet allegedly supplied by Rainbow (unconfirmed). Again, this may have changed over the years.

For 40W, you may find good options that work over those frequencies for a lot less money today.

The Jehnerts need quite a bit of power for the door drivers, and it's all routed through a three-way passive crossover. If you feed a bunch of power to the bottom end, you're also feeding it to the mids/highs. In theory you could probably compensate with a good third-octave or parametric EQ, and/or by adding a proper subwoofer.

It's really the cabin [bass and] midbass fitment that Jehnert solves.

Correct - the Jehnert system primarily adds the missing bass frequencies thanks to the dual 6.5" drivers in the doors. They cannot produce much in the bottom-octave (20-40Hz) but they are a huuuuge improvement over nothing in the doors at all, and still better than the single factory driver in the late USA cars. The early 124 stereos (with only deck power, no trunk amps, and tiny rear speakers) were truly awful. I didn't realize MB foisted that setup on some Euro cars too.

40w isn't horrible at midrange frequencies. And your ears are only a few feet from the speakers. We are talking about being in a closed cabin unless windows are open. And if you lower the noise floor by deadening the cabin you'd theoretically being hearing more music making your brain think it's louder.

Lowering the noise floor is always a good thing. You can go nuts with Dynamat Xtreme, or similar material, all over the car. MB put quite a bit of deadening in the car already, but adding it to the bare metal areas can't hurt. Sample pics below.

 

[maw1124]

Yes, yes and yes. Dynamat is the only thing I regret not doing while the car was apart for my setup. I can evaluate whether the MBQuart drivers are available and worth it in the doors.

I used a modern Kicker 5.25" (KS525) in the door, along with the JLAudio 4" (TR400) in the dash. They were like $150 for both pair -- unarmed robbery. For that money it's been hard for me to do anything else, although they are audiophile quality for no one. Thankfully the Alpine head unit (http://alpine-usa.com/product/view/cda-117/Specs) has both internal 5-band parametric and a 7-band graphic EQs, in addition to dedicated sub level output and time correction. For under $2k for the whole setup, it's been workable for 10- and 11- hour road trips. A God-send, actually -- I listen to all kinds of stuff in compressed mp3 format, so the sound shaping is the lynchpin. But dual midbass drivers in the doors would be boss!!

I can't see taking the car apart again for Dynamat, for the reason GSXR highlighted. It's really only the exhaust that creates any cabin noise, and turning the stereo up even a little obliterates that along with any passenger conversation.

I really think car stereo imaging and speaker technology these last 10 years have made car audio affordable again, for even the misers among us.

Cheers,

maw

 

[8899]

So it seems that if one wants some decent bass but is not interested in going the subwoofer route (because (a) you want/need the trunk space, (b) properly installing in trunk is difficult/expensive to do properly, or (c) don't want to cut up the rear shelf first aid kit compartment) then the Jenherts are the other best alternative?

frm1484 - what did you decide to do???

 

[gsxr]

So it seems that if one wants some decent bass but is not interested in going the subwoofer route (because (a) you want/need the trunk space, (b) properly installing in trunk is difficult/expensive to do properly, or (c) don't want to cut up the rear shelf first aid kit compartment) then the Jenherts are the other best alternative?

Given those limitations, the only option left is to put midbass drivers in the front doors, and Jehnert is the least painful option (full custom would likely cost more). Full custom would allow (maybe) an 8-inch driver in the door if you were willing to sacrifice the map pockets.

 

[frm1484]

Haven't done anything yet, guy from exquisite is sending me a quote on door boards. It all comes down to if I plan to stick to aftermarket head unit or go back to a Becker, does anyone know if there is a way to have clean preamp signal leave the Becker via rcas that could then go into an aftermarket amp(4channel)? Thinking would do either a 4602 or 1492.....both with aux input, I do t really care about CDs so not sure that I get much by having 4602 over 1492. below are kinda the options I have distilled it down to:

Option 1 w Becker hu
- A: internal amplification of 4602 or 1492, rainbow cx drop-ins on the dash and in the rears (Dave - I don't have dual tweeter rear I don't believe, I also don't believe my speakers are crossed over like the 10driver systems were, pretty sure mine is 4 full range cone speakers, no tweeters, basic setup, pretty much same drill as my 84 w123)
-B: (don't know if Becker could work this way), output to small external amp to drive rainbow cx drop ins in front and rear
-C: same as 1b, but use doorboards instead up front and rainbow cx in rear (requires more external amplification power and may ideally need a 6channel amp and have 4 of channels combined to 2 for the 2ohm load presented by jehnerts.....very pricey setup)

Option 2: replace my ugly hu with better looking blaupunkt brisbane 230 (pretty clean for aftermarket)
A: let blaupunkt hu drive 4 rainbow speakers (potentially add small power pack amp if hu was too weak, but this set up will inherently lack low end and scale so prob doesn't get much over the hu amp)
B: get doorboards and rainbow cx rears and run off strong external amp
C: just replace my ugly HU with better looking blaupunkt, let it drive my original factories as is happening today and just make it a cosmetic upgrade, call it a day, spend 150-200bucks and focus on enjoying the sound of that beautiful v8....I'm used to my original factory 1984 w123 stereo that still "works" fine, so my somewhat lame current setup is still tolerable, just not enjoyable really

And yes to the earlier question, my car does have the wheel fader on the console

 

[frm1484]

To point about a custom 8incher in the door, seems like too much brain damage vs dual 6.5s in Jenner kit, and not good airspace in door enclosure to get good low response and an 8 won't do as well as 6.5incher to give sweet midrange......feels like going for good clean musical "bass / mid-bass" as your low end is prob path of least resistance and with Jehnerts One would prob get close to something sounding like a modern "upgrade" factory system like the Harmon in my wife's ml or the bose in my 911

 

[gsxr]

1492 only has speaker-level outputs.

If you want RCA outputs, you need a 4602 or a newer Becker like a TrafficPro.

With any aftermarket setup, best option is to use a real power amp to drive all speakers, and not use deck power for anything.

 

[nocfn]

Someone mentioned dynamat! Did my C126 floor pan with the stuff and strongly encourage anyone who has your interior out to use it.

 

[8899]

If you want RCA outputs, you need a 4602 or a newer Becker like a TrafficPro.

GSXR - what are your opinions on the various Becker headunit upgrade options? Becker Autosound quoted me something like $550 for a 4602. And aren't there several different [Harmon] TrafficPro models?

 

[8899]

Lowering the noise floor is always a good thing. You can go nuts with Dynamat Xtreme, or similar material, all over the car. MB put quite a bit of deadening in the car already, but adding it to the bare metal areas can't hurt. Sample pics below.

If one doesn't want to go nuts with the Dynamat everywhere, what parts of the car benefit the most from some targeted Dynamat installation?

 

[nocfn]

Floors up to vertical seat backs and doors. Heat target is tranny tunnel.

 

[7delta]

I agree with Louis. You can go crazy with it. But there is a point at which the gains taper off. Meaning you're adding weight with minimal gains in lowering the noise floor. Target large areas. That don't have bracing on them. Think of these areas like a drum skin. They are the surfaces that will resonate the most. Door skins, floors, etc.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

 

[gsxr]

GSXR - what are your opinions on the various Becker headunit upgrade options? Becker Autosound quoted me something like $550 for a 4602. And aren't there several different [Harmon] TrafficPro models?

For a 1994-1995 W124, the newer Beckers are my favorite drop-in upgrade. You lose the CD changer but gain ability to have an iPod input, plus in-dash CD, so I never missed the changer. 100% plug & play. Make sure to fiddle with the settings, I turn off loudness, turn off the compass, set GAL (speed-dependent volume level) to zero, and fiddle with treble/bass a little.

There are a bunch of different versions. I thought the 4602 was either NLA from Mercedes, or crazy expensive. For $550, I'd go with one of the newer models that offer iPod control. Otherwise you can get one of the older/early TP's for $150-$250 used on fleaBay. There are cousins available branded BMW, Ferrari, Porsche, Land Rover, Chrysler, etc if you want something even cheaper. I saved pictures of most of the different models I was able to find (click here).

Becker used to have a bunch of different models for sale on eBay (click here) including some really spendy ones, not sure what the advantage was. At the moment they only have the Indy 7921, with zero description - lame. I'm curious if it can control an iPod from the head unit (like some of the newer/expensive versions), or not.

 

[maw1124]

Haven't done anything yet, guy from exquisite is sending me a quote on door boards. It all comes down to if I plan to stick to aftermarket head unit or go back to a Becker, does anyone know if there is a way to have clean preamp signal leave the Becker via rcas that could then go into an aftermarket amp(4channel)? Thinking would do either a 4602 or 1492.....both with aux input, I do t really care about CDs so not sure that I get much by having 4602 over 1492. below are kinda the options I have distilled it down to:

Option 1 w Becker hu
- A: internal amplification of 4602 or 1492, rainbow cx drop-ins on the dash and in the rears (Dave - I don't have dual tweeter rear I don't believe, I also don't believe my speakers are crossed over like the 10driver systems were, pretty sure mine is 4 full range cone speakers, no tweeters, basic setup, pretty much same drill as my 84 w123)
-B: (don't know if Becker could work this way), output to small external amp to drive rainbow cx drop ins in front and rear
-C: same as 1b, but use doorboards instead up front and rainbow cx in rear (requires more external amplification power and may ideally need a 6channel amp and have 4 of channels combined to 2 for the 2ohm load presented by jehnerts.....very pricey setup)

Option 2: replace my ugly hu with better looking blaupunkt brisbane 230 (pretty clean for aftermarket)
A: let blaupunkt hu drive 4 rainbow speakers (potentially add small power pack amp if hu was too weak, but this set up will inherently lack low end and scale so prob doesn't get much over the hu amp)
B: get doorboards and rainbow cx rears and run off strong external amp
C: just replace my ugly HU with better looking blaupunkt, let it drive my original factories as is happening today and just make it a cosmetic upgrade, call it a day, spend 150-200bucks and focus on enjoying the sound of that beautiful v8....I'm used to my original factory 1984 w123 stereo that still "works" fine, so my somewhat lame current setup is still tolerable, just not enjoyable really

And yes to the earlier question, my car does have the wheel fader on the console

I'd also look at something between Options 2A & 2B -- see if a local custom shop can get 6.5 inches in the doors, try a modern 4" dash on a crossover, and run a 4x75w amp to power that and the rears of your choice. That'll fit your listening preferences and not break the bank (or burn grey matter).

Good luck.

maw

 

[frm1484]

So couple new pieces of info I gathered today that may be helpful for others too:

Got quote on loaded doorboards, 1k shipped, with the full leather upgrade, $160 less using "not real" leather (vinyl I guess?).....euro is 1.1 to dollar today so think this price has come down decent bit from what people may have been paying a couple years ago (from old forum looks like we're in 1350 area in past). If your ready to get semi serious on the audio and spend some money I think it's actually a pretty darn good deal considering everything it solves and the cleanliness of it vs "working" off-size stuff in if you aren't confident in your ability or time to cleanly do ithat yourself or don't have a shop that you have past experience with to trust to do it right (sounds like a lot of audio shops butcher these cars)

Talked to Becker for a while today (Eddie-very nice guy), got same quote on 4602 at 550. The 4602 can be used with the right adaptor in a 1432 system (just need to explicitly tell Eddie what you are trying to do, basically it's the same concept that my blaupunkt has, I think, so that it can run factory speakers over existing infrastructure).

- 4602 c block adaptor will have 4 channels of pre-amp outputs so it's easy to connect an aftermarket amp. Eddie's recommendation was that if you use external amp, you need to run speaker wires from it all the way to speakers and shouldnt try to splice into existing speaker wire infrastructure (just leave it there and alone for next guy who might want to retrofit to stock)

- Becker makes 120mm coaxial speakers that appear to be drop-ins for front and rears for 125 a set (same speaker front and rear, if ordering rear it just has extra mounting bracket clips for slightly different hole fitment)....rainbow cx's "look" to me to be higher end for only about 50-60 bucks more per set (after the 49euro shipping to get them to the states) but at least there appears to be another option for people with a shorter lead time and not dropping so much for shipping

In general if you are trying to do a Becker upgrade, sounds like there are solutions you just need to know explicitly what you are trying to do and what your current set up is and its easiest to call Eddie (I would ask for him as I think he is the more senior guy there, I talked to a more junior guy in the past and I didn't have a ton of confidence in what he was telling me). I Gotta get some blaupunkt removal keys and get my deck out to confirm exactly what my wiring harness situation looks like as I have been taking an educated guess so far based on prior owner fs ad, receipts I have, and lack of functioning amp as to what that looks like

 

[gsxr]

Talked to Becker for a while today (Eddie-very nice guy), got same quote on 4602 at 550. The 4602 can be used with the right adaptor in a 1432 system (just need to explicitly tell Eddie what you are trying to do, basically it's the same concept that my blaupunkt has, I think, so that it can run factory speakers over existing infrastructure).

AFAIK, this is 100% wrong. There is no adapter to make any aftermarket head unit (Becker or otherwise) replace a 1432. The 1432 has no deck power and sends low-level signals via DIN cable to a power amp in the trunk. Any 1432 replacement will require re-wiring, meaning pulling new wires all over the car, which is very different than an "adapter" plugged in between the deck and harness. If there was an easy way to swap out a 1432, believe me, someone would have found it during the past 25 years.

- 4602 c block adaptor will have 4 channels of pre-amp outputs so it's easy to connect an aftermarket amp. Eddie's recommendation was that if you use external amp, you need to run speaker wires from it all the way to speakers and shouldnt try to splice into existing speaker wire infrastructure (just leave it there and alone for next guy who might want to retrofit to stock)

Yes, the 4602 has 4 channels out (plus subwoofer channel, I think). However no, you don't want to run speaker wires from the 4602 to the power amp, you run RCA cables from the 4602 to the power amp. Speaker-level amp inputs are not what you want.

Becker makes 120mm coaxial speakers that appear to be drop-ins for front and rears for 125 a set (same speaker front and rear, if ordering rear it just has extra mounting bracket clips for slightly different hole fitment)....rainbow cx's "look" to me to be higher end for only about 50-60 bucks more per set (after the 49euro shipping to get them to the states) but at least there appears to be another option for people with a shorter lead time and not dropping so much for shipping

Interesting, I did not know they offered a 120mm drop-in replacement. But IMO, this would not be as good as the stock rear speakers with dual tweeters, which are 140mm+. I'd still just get good used rear speakers from a US-spec 400E/E420, but again since we're talking rear fill here, it's not a big deal either way.

 

[frm1484]

Sorry realizing my post read wierd now that I look back (iPhone typing of a short novel there!), I meant direct wiring to be of speaker wire from external amp speaker out terminals all the way direct to speakers rather Than trying to splice into existing infrastructure somewhere earlier (not speaker level inputs to amp, that would be rca done as you suggest)

Will be interesting to get my blaupunkt out and see how it's wired up in the back (I will take pics for people) right now all I have as data points are that my head unit is playing the 4 factory speakers, there is no amp in the trunk running anything, seller that did the hu install claimed it was a full factory plug and play to existing, and I have a receipt from Becker for an item that simply says "adaptor for 92/93 install" (this is seperate from the iPod aux cable which is also on the receipt).....will keep people posted

 

[frm1484]

So finally located blaupunkt keys I will need to get my hu out (not the bent wires ones that just look like corners of a coat hanger cut that are all over eBay, I need a different one that looks more like a Becker key), problem is I couldn't find them anywhere in the states so had to order from a place in UK and unsure how long will take to come in but hopefully within next couple weeks.

If it proves that I can drop in a 4602 for a basically plug and play, then I plan to go very basic and just let the 4602 run drop-in rainbows (an install easy for me to do myself), if turns out I am going to need to run a bunch of new wires anyway to get a 4602 to work (something I dont plan to do myself) then I probably will bite bullet, do doorboards with a strong 4ch amp and rainbow drop ins for the rear. am shying away from idea of having an external amp to run just the rainbows, as that will still be good bit of labor to cleanly run and if Going that far might as well pony up for doorboards to get more value out of that labor

 

[frm1484]

Got busy at work and didn't have a chance to followup on this for a while, but finally got my blaupunkt pulled last week and there was a very clean adaptor that spliced right into factory speaker wires (pics below). For guys in the states keep in mind my car is a early production (aug 91) eurospec and i already know i don't have the 10 speaker setup that everyone else has, i had a mysterious single black box in the trunk that appears to me to be a combination of an amp/tuner (don't know for sure, just my logic as it is pretty dense / heavy, has a heat sink on the back and an antenna plug). My audio guy was complimentary of the set-up and said it was a clean job (much cleaner than what he typically sees come in with aftermarket HUs on an older car), but that at least for the needed harness in my application, it was something that while it came from becker for a little over $100, should be pretty easy for any custom audio shop to make from scratch for pretty cheap. Note the Yellow/White/Black/Green caps actually plug into the end of the speaker wire which has a little 2 tooth connector like it would have plugged into a factory harness (these are not just wire nuts on twisted together wire which is what it looks like)

 

[frm1484]

Despite all of this though i think i have decided that i am just going to go external amp at end of day anyway and just run the extra wires as found an audio guy who I have confidence in to do it right but nice to know that existing infrastructure isn't butchered. Narrowed down choices to the following (interested in any recs or thoughts):

Head Unit: Becker 4602 or one of the Audio-10 units from car-radio.de (anyone have experience with these? if i could confirm it has pre-amp outs - i kinda like look of a number of these options better than the 4602 which still looks a little more modern to me). Also from looking online all of the 4602's i saw didn't light up the same color orange as the rest of dash in our cars, anyone have a pic of the 4602 lit up?

Audio guy recommended 4 or 5 channel MBquart from the same line depending on which speaker config i go with:

Rear Speakers: doesn't matter that much but probably will do rainbow drop-ins to keep it clean, too much trouble to try to source the double tweeter factory speaker and worry how it fits for my euro application or how it pairs with an aftermarket amp

Fronts: Doorboards or rainbow drop ins, if go with rainbow drop ins could do a high quality small sub (8") in custom fit enclosure done right in the trunk and still come out a not insignificant amount cheaper than door boards

My audio guy was familiar with the jehnerts as has used them in a number of BMWs and newer benzes but never a W124 and had good things to say from his past experiences with them. Based on rainbows response curve, I shouldn't have a step function frequency response issue pairing it with a sub.

 

[7delta]

Sounds like a pretty solid plan to me and you have an experienced installer. I don't have much if any usable knowledge in regards to the Becker 4602 HU and it's compatibility with an aftermarket amp. Wonder if it may have connetability issues? NAK headunits have a pretty good reputation and liking amongst the community. They may prove to be a good option for you. And they look era correct and compliment the interior. Other than that, it sounds like you've chosen to go with quality components.
In the end , the only thing that matters is that You are happy with its performance.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

 

[gsxr]

Got busy at work and didn't have a chance to followup on this for a while, but finally got my blaupunkt pulled last week and there was a very clean adaptor that spliced right into factory speaker wires (pics below). For guys in the states keep in mind my car is a early production (aug 91) eurospec and i already know i don't have the 10 speaker setup that everyone else has, i had a mysterious single black box in the trunk that appears to me to be a combination of an amp/tuner (don't know for sure, just my logic as it is pretty dense / heavy, has a heat sink on the back and an antenna plug).

That is the Becker adapter designed for early 124 USA stereos without external amps. It's a plug+play adapter for head units with the Becker style connectors, which your Blaupunkt happens to have. See photo below. It will also work for a 4602, 1492, TrafficPro, etc. My guess is your Euro model has a trunk amp with speaker-level inputs. Nice to see the wiring wasn't butchered on the car!

Head Unit: Becker 4602 or one of the Audio-10 units from car-radio.de (anyone have experience with these? if i could confirm it has pre-amp outs - i kinda like look of a number of these options better than the 4602 which still looks a little more modern to me). Also from looking online all of the 4602's i saw didn't light up the same color orange as the rest of dash in our cars, anyone have a pic of the 4602 lit up?

Based on photos I've seen, I don't think the Audio-10 has preamp/RCA outputs. The 4602 does. The 4602 has an amber display. I'm not sure where you can buy a 4602 nowadays, but you can get a TrafficPro which is nearly identical for less $$$. The TP can control a CD changer (4602 can not), and the TP has a nav system (which is a dinosaur compared to what your iPhone can do).

 

[frm1484]

I can buy a 4602 from Beckerautosound but it's pretty overpriced at 550....Dave - is there anyway to look at the output and "prongs" on the back of the deck to figure out if it has a preamp output ability. Becker tells me the 4602 has preamp, would that be just taking the speaker output signal and the harness converts to an rca connection or is it a true pre-amp signal like you would get on an aftermarket unit and want for this application

All of the used traffic pros I have found are either ford green / bmw orange / or bright blue and red.....can you buy new tp still in an amber that matches our interior? That will be very important to me

 

[DerFuror]

Audio guy recommended 4 or 5 channel MBquart from the same line depending on which speaker config i go with:

I've got a 5 Channel MB Quart amp that I've been happy with...Its Red Eye is killer.

 

[gsxr]

I can buy a 4602 from Beckerautosound but it's pretty overpriced at 550....Dave - is there anyway to look at the output and "prongs" on the back of the deck to figure out if it has a preamp output ability. Becker tells me the 4602 has preamp, would that be just taking the speaker output signal and the harness converts to an rca connection or is it a true pre-amp signal like you would get on an aftermarket unit and want for this application

I have a 4602, and yes it has true preamp outputs. A dongle plugs into the upper 20-pin connector and this provides RCA preamp outputs. If you look at the Audio 10, this top connector is different, and according to this diagram it does not have line-level (RCA) pre-outs. On a side note, unless you really want a cassette tape player, I'm not sure why you'd want the Audio 10...?

All of the used traffic pros I have found are either ford green / bmw orange / or bright blue and red.....can you buy new tp still in an amber that matches our interior? That will be very important to me

The original Harmon-Kardon 4773 is amber. These are less common but can be found used, for example this one that sold recently. I don't think they are available new anymore, but there are other newer versions of the Becker units (Indianapolis, Mexico, etc) which you can still get new, I think. If you will only accept brand-new, the 4602 might be the best option, but $550 is kinda painful. Make them at least include the RCA pre-out and auxiliary input harnesses at that price (bet they'll want to charge extra!)

 

[frm1484]

On a side note, unless you really want a cassette tape player, I'm not sure why you'd want the Audio 10...?

The audio 10/20/30s that I was looking at were the ones on car-radio.de....they are all CD players with ability to have aux-in added...4602 definitely seems like a higher end piece of equipment, primary interest in audio 10/20/30 was being more reasonable price and having a look that is more period correct (basically looks like a 1492 with a CD player or like the early w210 stereos depending on which one you choose). I think I will likely bite the bullet and do the 4602 just because it's a better unit and worth it to have a "real" preamp, as I am spending a good bit of money to have my source come in via speaker level inputs, but I do prefer aesthetics of the audio 10s

I know you said 4602 lights up Amber, does it match rest of dash in our cars or is it slightly different ? (in the Porsches that used the same deck I seem to recall them having more of a yellow tint to them than how our dashes light up)