Viscous Fan Clutch Replacement

[Benzer]

I am finally getting around to replace the VFC on my engine. MB's service manual points to several special tools to be used for this simple R&R. Purchasing the tools is an option I would like to avoid for the time being. Are there any tips&tricks out there to loosen and remove the center bolt and remove the clutch or should I remove the fan prior to removing the clutch. Space is just as limited on this engine as in the BMW E36 but I manage by locking the clutch with a contraption I made on the bimmers, which I can't use on the MB.

I bought the ACM clutch. Now Dave mentioned a shorter bolt is required, M10X50mm. Any chance there is a MB p/n for it out there?

Thanks guys..

 

[gsxr]

Re: Vicous Fan Clutch Replacement

If you pull the radiator, the fan clutch is easy to R&R. With the radiator in place, you'll need to fabricate the tool shown in the image below. Also shown is the p/n for the shorter bolt (dealer only item).

 

[Benzer]

Re: Vicous Fan Clutch Replacement

Ok that should be no problem. Thanks for the specific sizing picture. Is that a 8mm allen? Is this what should be used to stop the pulley from turning by inserting it into a hole located around its edge and from behind?

 

[gsxr]

Re: Vicous Fan Clutch Replacement

Ok that should be no problem. Thanks for the specific sizing picture. Is that a 8mm allen?

Yes, that is an 8mm allen.

Is this what should be used to stop the pulley from turning by inserting it into a hole located around its edge and from behind?

No. The 8 mm allen (cut down to ~30mm long) is to break free & re-tighten the center bolt.

This photo (also attached below) shows the pulley holding tool, and the spinner tool (home-made). I need to get a photo of the factory spinner tool. Ignore the OM60x reference, they also work on the M119. The 'stubby' 8mm driver shown is too deep and will not work with the OE Sachs fan clutch, there is not enough room. Your reference to a hole in the pulley only applies to the M103/M104 engines, not the OM60x or M119/M120.

The FSM procedure is here - note it says the radiator must be removed, and this is true if you want to use the stubby socket (factory tool) depicted:
http://www.w124-zone.com/downloads/MB%2 ... 0-3120.pdf


UPDATE: After the fan+clutch has been R&R'd once and all the fasteners cleaned up, including the 3 bolts for the fan shround... it's possible to remove the fan+clutch in 5-10 minutes. Clearance to the radiator varies due to manufacturing tolerances, it goes faster on cars with a bit more space. Typical is about 24mm air gap from the radiator fins to the plastic cover on the face of the clutch, ±2mm or so.

 

[Benzer]

Re: Vicous Fan Clutch Replacement

Ok, now I can see the need for the cut hex key. The E36 bimmers have 32 mm Nut that is a PITA to remove and hold the clutch in place, specially if anti-seize has not been previously applied.., thanks Dave..

 

[gsxr]

Re: Vicous Fan Clutch Replacement

Final tip: When re-installing, DO NOT over-tighten the center bolt. It just needs to be snug. The torque spec is pretty low, but you can't get a torque wrench on it unless the radiator is out. With the ACM clutch at least you'll have more room, as you'll find out when you install it... much easier than the Sachs.

 

[Benzer]

Re: Vicous Fan Clutch Replacement

Dave,

I'm replacing another fan clutch for a E400. seems like the damn bolt is fused on. The pulleys spin as I try to unscrew it, but that's about it. I sure as hell don't feel like taking the rad out, but will if I have to.. Any tips you might think of..? Is it a right hand thread like in my E420..?

Thkxz,...

 

[gsxr]

Re: Vicous Fan Clutch Replacement

E400? You mean 400E? W124 / M119, correct? Standard bolt thread, no left-hand threads here. You are experiencing first-hand why you DO NOT over-tighten this bolt.

I had one years ago that started stripping the bolt head; I had to pull the radiator, weld the 8mm Allen to the bolt to get enough torque on it without stripping the head, and then replace with a new bolt after getting the old one out. Total nightmare. I think I saved the carnage, I should take a photo of it....

 

[Benzer]

Re: Vicous Fan Clutch Replacement

Ahhhh, kinda figured that was the way it was headed..,btw yes 400E/M119.. Well, without the rad, you think an easy-out might work or slamming a 21/64 " hex in there or even going at it with the impact and a couple of hexes or torx from Horror Freight..? Unfortunately I don't weld..

I can feel a little play on the hex by now, so its almost on its way to getting stripped. It still has the original VFC I presume. (I thought the one in my car was bad, this one spins without any resistance..)

Thxz,

 

[samiam44]

Re: Vicous Fan Clutch Replacement

Anybody have reliability information on the ACM/Hambertech unit?

What's considered a good life span for a fan clutch? 100k miles, 150k? I'm in Texas and my 6.0 liter seems to not like the stop and go as much as the 420e. As Jono said.. 5mm less headgasket- don't want to stress the engine with overheating.

 

[gsxr]

Re: Vicous Fan Clutch Replacement

I think it's more of a time issue than mileage, but if the clutch lasts 10 years / 100kmi, I'd say it served its purposes. Some may last longer, but it's quite likely toast by 15 years or 150kmi. Sometimes it's hard to tell the age until you remove it and look for the date code painted on. Fresh ones are engaged a LOT more often, and you can hear it!!!

 

[samiam44]

Re: Vicous Fan Clutch Replacement

Dave,

So are you running one of these? I'm wondering on how these aftermarket ones are holding up versus the OE. If they don't last.. maybe I'm better with the OEM in the long run?? Does the ACM still engage fully @ 105F?
Can someone point me to a source for them.. or at least the wirlpac part number?


Thanks,


Michael

 

[gsxr]

Re: Vicous Fan Clutch Replacement

I ran the ACM one for a few months last summer, and it was engaged much sooner (lower temp) than the old/worn OE clutch, similar to a new OE clutch. My 92 has a more recent OE clutch and it acts similar to the ACM. I pulled it out to swap into my '95, which has a totally dead clutch, but haven't had time yet (need to do that ASAP though as it's hot here). No idea if the ACM lasts as long as the OE Sachs, but at roughly 1/4 the price, if it even lasts half as long you're still saving $$$, lol.

M119.974/.975 fan clutch = OE part number 119-200-01-22, $607 at AutoHaus, $N/A at ElAutoParts, $521+SH at parts.com
ACM equivalent in WhirledPack number = G5010-34879, $137 at AutoHaus, $133 at ElAutoPArts, $N/A at parts.com

Don't forget the ACM clutch requires OE bolt # 000912-010222 (must be OE, the aftermarket bolt has the wrong head, won't fit).

 

[samiam44]

Re: Vicous Fan Clutch Replacement

Dave,

Chatted with Jono- the ACM clutch is now made in China. He quit using them due to poor quality when the off-shored the part. I though there was a guy on benzworld whom's clutch came apart and took out the radiator, fan, Trans cooler lines...

I may try and re-fill mine.

Michael

 

[gsxr]

Re: Vicous Fan Clutch Replacement

I've not yet heard any official reports of the ACM clutch failures, so if you can find a forum thread, I'd be interested in reading that. I've had an ACM clutch on my OM603 for a couple years now with zero problems, btw.

 

[Benzer]

Re: Vicous Fan Clutch Replacement

I fought with the fan clutch a couple of days ago with no success. Today after literally trying all kinds of weird S&^t, a friend was able to well my 'special tool' Worked like a charm. I did have to remove the damn radiator for better access of ratchet & socket. Luckily the bolt was not stripped. Below you can see the gizmo in action. It was used to keep the dam pulley from turning. That bolt was way, way, tighter than normal. Oh, and the VFC looks to be the original. So it was around 14 yrs old. Overheating..GONE..Took out the thermostat as well. A observation on the thermostat, EPC pointed out to one with housing included, however, the one that worked was the thermostat only..

 

[500ESpain]

Re: Vicous Fan Clutch Replacement

Does anyone know the correct part number for the clutch? I've seen several 1192000022 for sale at a very reasonable price but I can't find the correct part number on the EPC. The part is there but no part number.

Thanks!

 

[Benzer]

Re: Vicous Fan Clutch Replacement

According to what I get its p/n 119-200-01-22, (you are missing the number one).

 

[gsxr]

Re: Vicous Fan Clutch Replacement

119-200-00-22 is used on the W140 and R129 chassis. It is taller/thicker and will not fit in a W124.

119-200-01-22 is only used in the W124 chassis. It costs more because it doesn't fit anything else so they don't make as many of them.

 

[Benzer]

Re: Vicous Fan Clutch Replacement

And below is a prime example as to why you should NOT purchase junk on ebay. I installed an ACM on a E400, but [to save a few bucks] I bought this knock-off on ebay and installed it on MY E420. It lasted 200 miles. It could not take the centrifugal force and split in two, releasing all the silicone fluid inside my engine bay. Luckily it did not split in two while I was on I-49 or many bad things would have happened.

I have an ACM installed on it now...

 

[500ESpain]

Re: Vicous Fan Clutch Replacement

FYI I've purchased the clutch (SACHS 2100 013 032) for 310 euro (free shipping to Spain) from www.recambiosviaweb.com

 

[gsxr]

Re: Vicous Fan Clutch Replacement

$310 EUR is approx $450 USD. We can get the same clutch for ~$540 USD shipped in USA via parts.com.

By comparison, the ACM clutch is ~$135 USD shipped (~$90 EUR). Pretty big difference...




PS: That's crazy about the eBay clutch explosion in post #20!!

 

[500ESpain]

Re: Vicous Fan Clutch Replacement

Yes, I know but it's the cheapest I could find handy here in Spain. Anyway, it is a big saving for the exact same part at the dealer.

 

[Paul64]

Re: Vicous Fan Clutch Replacement

Just found this on Eurocarparts in the UK - http://www.eurocarparts.com/ecp/c/M...b3ee7fa768720fde364e72cf6ccdc764492df2b5&FVIC

Can this be the real deal???

 

[Christian_K]

Re: Vicous Fan Clutch Replacement

Just found this on Eurocarparts in the UK - http://www.eurocarparts.com/ecp/c/M...b3ee7fa768720fde364e72cf6ccdc764492df2b5&FVIC

Can this be the real deal???

This is highly interesting!

 

[Paul64]

Re: Vicous Fan Clutch Replacement

Indeed Christian - I did try to get on the BERU website partsfinder but couldn't get it to load properly. I guess that would be the cheapest option, back to the manufacturer direct....

Paul

 

[Paul64]

Re: Vicous Fan Clutch Replacement

Did anyone have any experience with the BERU unit - I want to get one as a spare and BERU is a pretty good Company; they make all the ignition system parts we use on a day to day basis........

Paul

 

[Christian_K]

Re: Vicous Fan Clutch Replacement

Never heard of it before... but it might be worth a try, why don't you do it? ^^

 

[gsxr]

Re: Vicous Fan Clutch Replacement

Brief procedure to test your fan clutch:

The mechanical fan clutch will be fully engaged with the engine temp at 90C, and probably will have engaged at a lower temp. If it's not engaged by 90C, it's defective [OR, for OE Sachs/Horton clutches, mis-calibrated]. With the car in park and temp at 90C or higher, pop the hood, and rev the engine slowly. The fan should roar loudly up to ~3500rpm, you can hear it disengage by 4000rpm, then let the revs drop slowly and the fan should re-engage by ~3000rpm. If yours doesn't do this, either the clutch is bad, or there is a blockage directly ahead of the clutch as it needs hot air to trigger the bimetal strip.

 

[jano]

Re: Vicous Fan Clutch Replacement

I tried doing the test myself, but am not sure what the results are. With the car at just over 100, in park, there's a big fan on the inside between the radiator and engine that spins at what I'd call a moderate speed (not fast not slow). I hit the gas to bring rpm up to 4k slowly, but I was unable to tell whether I heard a fan or not (don't know what I'm listening for). There are two smaller fans on the front of the radiator by the horn which were not moving. Perhaps two people are needed to observe the fan roaring?

 

[gsxr]

Re: Vicous Fan Clutch Replacement

I tried doing the test myself, but am not sure what the results are. With the car at just over 100, in park, there's a big fan on the inside between the radiator and engine that spins at what I'd call a moderate speed (not fast not slow). I hit the gas to bring rpm up to 4k slowly, but I was unable to tell whether I heard a fan or not (don't know what I'm listening for). There are two smaller fans on the front of the radiator by the horn which were not moving. Perhaps two people are needed to observe the fan roaring?

Jano, it's the large metal fan between the engine & radiator that you are checkout out (not the two smaller plastic fans on the front of the radiator). If you can't tell if the fan is roaring, then it isn't. It is LOUD when spinning at 2000-3000rpm, and will turn off by 4000rpm (also very easy to hear - gets much quieter all of a sudden). At idle it will spin at moderate speed; when revved up it spins fast. Based on what you describe, your mechanical fan clutch is not working.

 

[gsxr]

Re: Vicous Fan Clutch Replacement

Brief update on the fan clutch thingy:

I used an optical tachometer from good ol' Harbor Freight (similar to this model, HF item # 66632) to test the fan clutch on two of my M119's yesterday. One has a good clutch and passes the "roar" test with flying colors. The other has a bad clutch and fails the "roar" test. It was ~90°F ambient temp for the test and both cars were at operating temp (85-95C on the dash gauge).

Car #1 - Good Clutch:
With the engine at ~650rpm idle in park, pulley speed was ~810rpm, actual fan blade speed was ~790rpm (almost 98% lockup).
I didn't think to test it at higher engine RPM's, I will do that in the future for grins.


Car #2 - Bad Clutch:
With the engine at ~650rpm idle in park, pulley speed was ~810rpm, actual fan blade speed was ~275rpm (only ~35% lockup).
With the engine at 1500rpm idle in park, pulley speed was ~1900rpm, actual fan blade speed was ~500rpm (only ~25% lockup).
With the engine at 2500rpm idle in park, pulley speed was ~3200rpm, actual fan blade speed was ~500rpm (only ~15% lockup).


Conclusion: With a bad fan clutch, the fan is spinning slower at freeway speeds than it does with a good clutch at IDLE. I have a couple more fans & clutches to test (one good, one bad) to get additional data. After I test those, I'll probably start a new thread with all the numbers. I may try to get a video of what it sounds & looks like with both a good and bad clutch, revved up to the disengagement point, etc. I also want to test the "good" clutch in winter on a cold day, just to see how it acts when not engaged. I suspect it may still drive the fan better than a 'dead' clutch.

 

[samiam44]

Cool Dave!! Nothing like another way to test them! Roaring is pretty noticeable. It's the in-between bad and good where it gets tougher to make the call.

FYI, Paul64, I don't think the part at the Eurocarparts link is correct for a W124.034/036. It says "206220200" which is not correct.


Michael

 

[jano]

Bad clutch, BAD!

Taken in park with parking brake on, at just over 100C. Stuck white paper to fan and used a gizmo gauge with a red laser to read.
Idle: 760
2k rpm: 520
3k rpm: 823
4.5k rpm: 445

Forgot about the pulley, oops!

(edited to add more details)

 

[Paul64]

Hi Michael,

I wonder if that number - 206220200 - would be the BERU part number perhaps? I still can't get onto their website catalogue, perhaps it's worth a punt anyway - there's probably a sale or return for badly supplied parts.

Paul

 

[gsxr]

Tested my wife's E420 over the past two days, first when warm but not hot enough to engage the fan; then when it was hot enough to engage the fan cutch. This car runs cool at 85-90°C in summer heat with the AC on, and the fan easily passes the audible "roar" test. The data shows that even with the fclutch disengaged, it still pulls more air than car #2 with the dead clutch:.

Also - the M119 fan does do the "jerk to a stop" thing when you kill the engine, if the clutch is engaged. It stops almost instantly and freezes in place, it does not freewheel. I'll try to get some video of that.


Car #3 - Good clutch, NOT engaged:
With the engine at ~650rpm idle in park, pulley speed was ~800rpm, actual fan blade speed was ~325rpm (~40% lockup).
With the engine at 1500rpm idle in park, pulley speed was ~1900rpm, actual fan blade speed was ~410rpm (~22% lockup).
With the engine at 2500rpm idle in park, pulley speed was ~3100rpm, actual fan blade speed was ~980rpm (~32% lockup).


Car #3 - Good clutch, engaged:
With the engine at ~650rpm idle in park, pulley speed was ~800rpm, actual fan blade speed was ~775rpm (97% lockup).
With the engine at 1500rpm idle in park, pulley speed was ~1900rpm, actual fan blade speed was ~1750rpm (92% lockup).
With the engine at 2500rpm idle in park, pulley speed was ~3200rpm, actual fan blade speed was ~2600rpm (81% lockup).

 

[J-Sauce]

Any word on the various number of clutches available on ebay lately for dirt cheap?

 

[gsxr]

Any word on the various number of clutches available on ebay lately for dirt cheap?

I am very suspicious of any clutch that is sold for <$100. Here are two I found on eBay, along with an ACM:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/220711396349
Seller = macautopartsdiscounts, part brand is listed as "US Motor Works", $55 + $8 S&H.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/150606422277
Seller = deutschepartsusa, part brand is listed as "HAMBURG TECHNIC GERMANY", $76 + $10 S&H.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/310046191064
Seller = fivestar007, part brand is listed as "ACM", $195 with free S&H.


Comments: I don't like that the first two are showing a photo of the OE Sachs clutch, which IMO is misleading and borders on false advertising. The seller with the ACM is showing an ACM clutch photo, which is good, but their price is lousy (you can get it elsewhere for <$140 delivered).

I am certain the $55 clutch is total junk and probaby would fall apart like this one did. The $75 Hamburg clutch could be a re-packaged ACM, I'm not sure. Guess someone could order one up and try it. I recall a discussion about this elsewhere, maybe on Scott's forum many moons ago. Don't remember the verdict on Hamburg though. [Edit: Hamburg is junk, Vemo is junk. Get OE Sachs/Horton, or ACM, only.]

Peachpit forum thread (old):
93 400e Fan Clutch Debacle - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

Google search shows the Bimmer crowd is not impressed with 'Hamburg' and that they are indeed a Chinese-made clutch (although the ACM is supposedly now made in China too). FWIW, I've had an ACM/Vemo (think they're the same) clutch on my 300D for a couple years with no problems, still working fine. I don't have enough miles on my M119 ACM clutch to be able to say anything other than it worked great out of the box after I got the shorter bolt.

 

[gerryvz]

Any parts by "Hamburg Technic" I put in the same category as Üroparts -- i.e. DO NOT BUY list.

By the way, the price has gone up on the M119/W124-specific fan clutches - now $520.80 at parts.com + probably $40-50 shipping (list price $725). O-U-C-H !!!

Even if one would get 3-4 years out of an ACM, it is worth paying the price for them.

Cheers,
Gerry

 

[Paul64]

I just collected my car from the UK and drove back through France - total around 2000km.
Here's a photo of the dashboard showing outside temp / speed / engine temp and the a/c was on 22C / first speed on the fan. All looks good to me and original coupling going strong after 200k...

God bless the Germans!


Paul

 

[Jelmer]

That's odd, your oil pressure is pointing higher than the normal maximum!
(And damn, can't wait for my new visco fan... Or outside temp-sensor for that matter)

 

[jano]

Mine oil pressure gauge goes to the same level slightly above 3, I think (don't recall now).

By the way, how do you guys cut the allen wrench to fit? Vice with hacksaw or sawsall? I don't think a dremel will be strong enough. Maybe get a cheapo hex wrench set from harbor freight? My clutch should be in this week from parts.com.

Dave: did you use the nubby left over from the hex wrench on the spinner tool? Does the depth of the spinner tool have the same 30.5mm max depth requirement?


jano

 

[gsxr]

By the way, how do you guys cut the allen wrench to fit? Vice with hacksaw or sawsall? I don't think a dremel will be strong enough. Maybe get a cheapo hex wrench set from harbor freight? My clutch should be in this week from parts.com.

I think a hacksaw will just dull the teeth without cutting anything, but you could try. I forget if I burned up a Sawzall blade, or just used an abrasive cutoff wheel on an angle grinder, which is the preferred method for cutting hardened steel (including coil springs).

Dave: did you use the nubby left over from the hex wrench on the spinner tool? Does the depth of the spinner tool have the same 30.5mm max depth requirement?

It's been years since I did this, but yes, I think I did use the piece left over to fabricate the spinner tool. You'll want to make the spinner tool depth fairly shallow, much less than 30mm! Just enough to engage the bolt head from the face of the clutch. Guess I should measure mine, eh?

 

[gerryvz]

Harbor Freight tools are cheap enough and soft enough that a hacksaw may actually work just fine One of the rare situations where a cheap tool may have some advantages !

 

[gsxr]

Harbor Freight tools are cheap enough and soft enough that a hacksaw may actually work just fine One of the rare situations where a cheap tool may have some advantages !

Good point! Definitely worth a try. You'll know pretty quick if the saw is going to cut or not.

 

[valvfloat]

i had my clutch replaced by my long-time mechanic (work actually performed by his new tech) on Thursday....after driving around for 1.5 days, i thought i'm good to go on a short 4 hr trip to the interior of BC....Saturday morning half way up the vaunted Coquahalla hiway...BOOM!!!....initially i thought i had a blowout at 80mph...fortunately i found my way off the hiway...quickly circled the car...looked up to see coolant steam pouring from under hood, came around the driver's side, peek at the temp gauge (110+)...shut it down...popped the hood...and OMG....rad shifted back...hit the fan...

pics later....

oh....towed back to Vancouver...dumped off at the shop....talked to him today...he was falling over himself apologizing...he said it would all be taken care of....problem...the fan is unobtainum...1+weeks out of deutchland....

 

[gerryvz]

Coincidental ... wonder if something was not re-attached correctly. Hopefully your mechanic will be honest about it if they were responsible. Good luck. Sorry to hear this.

Cheers,
Gerry

 

[gsxr]

Sounds like the clips which hold the radiator to the crossmember were left out, and the radiator fell back against the spinning fan, and... *crunch*. Very ugly scene, probably requiring a new radiator, fan blade, and clutch...!

 

[valvfloat]

i had my clutch replaced by my long-time mechanic (work actually performed by his new tech) on Thursday....after driving around for 1.5 days, i thought i'm good to go on a short 4 hr trip to the interior of BC....Saturday morning half way up the vaunted Coquahalla hiway...BOOM!!!....initially i thought i had a blowout at 80mph...fortunately i found my way off the hiway...quickly circled the car...looked up to see coolant steam pouring from under hood, came around the driver's side, peek at the temp gauge (110+)...shut it down...popped the hood...and OMG....rad shifted back...hit the fan...

pics later....

oh....towed back to Vancouver...dumped off at the shop....talked to him today...he was falling over himself apologizing...he said it would all be taken care of....problem...the fan is unobtainum...1+weeks out of deutchland....

the carnage...

 

[gerryvz]

Day-um. Looks like the Davester called it -- was the radiator removed when your clutch was replaced? It didn't have to be. If so then it's a clear issue with the shop. That's a new radiator. Make sure the new one is a Behr with a reinforced neck. Fan looks gnarly. Good luck. Sounds like your shop will make it good. DEFINITELY check out that new clutch carefully too; there's a chance it could have been damaged (may not be able to see it visually) in the 'collision'. Those things (as you know) are spendy.