Viscous Fan Clutch Replacement

[valvfloat]

yes, the radiator was removed....

that clutch is shot...look closely at in the third pic...you can see it snapped on the mount...likely from initial impact with the radiator...

however, i think i/we can save a few buck and weld the fan back up... :-D

 

[cm60k]

I think generaly the M119 Clutches are thick, no problem for a "W140 & R129" Clutches to be that thick, cause they got a good

space to clear tha distance for replacement things, but "400E/E420 & 500E/E500" should has a thin Clutch, the "W124 V8s" has

a narrow & dangerous space, thats makes some difficult to removal or replacement, and sometimes you may scratch the

Radiator channels while works with a Clutch or fan,, i heard the diesel one is good to go with, but im not sure about it & if it

with 4 fan bolts..?!?!

ZAYED,,

 

[gsxr]

Uh-oh. I can't tell from the photos, but it's possible that the fan support (thingy the clutch bolts to) may be damaged. Not only is that part expensive, it's many hours labor to R&R. Hopefully the repairs will be covered by the shop.

On a side note, you have an aftermarket clutch in there. Based on some information that recently came to light, I would recommend shelling out for the OE/Sachs clutch only, not the ACM or Vemo aftermarket clutches. Vemo does not disengage at high RPM like the OE Sachs. ACM may disengage but at a higher RPM than spec. It would be worth paying the extra for the OE clutch, IMO.

BTW - why bother welding the fan? A little epoxy and it will be good as new! LOL!

 

[valvfloat]

Uh-oh. I can't tell from the photos, but it's possible that the fan support (thingy the clutch bolts to) may be damaged. Not only is that part expensive, it's many hours labor to R&R. Hopefully the repairs will be covered by the shop.

could you be more specific....?....you don't mean the pulley do you ?

 

[samiam44]

snip" Originally Posted by jano
By the way, how do you guys cut the allen wrench to fit? Vice with hacksaw or sawsall? I don't think a dremel will be strong enough. Maybe get a cheapo hex wrench set from harbor freight? My clutch should be in this week from parts.com.
"

The dremel will cut with a bit of patience and the cut-off wheel. Cut off wheels will go through any steel-regardless of hardness. Just lightly so the rpm stays high. I purchased the donner allen wrench from acehardware. I think it was $1.69. To break it loose, I hold the allen with my 12 or 16 inch channel locks. Works great..! Thanks DaveM for taking the measurements of his tool for me last year (?).


Michael

 

[cm60k]

could you be more specific....?....you don't mean the pulley do you ?

Sorry to hear that v.float, & i hope your baby well be cured soon,, i think Dave mean the brackets that holds the (pulley-clutch-

Alternator-fan)#: "119 150 08 70", it happened to my friend 500E 2 years ago, big crack under the Alternator side, makes the

fan move and belt goes out, break almost everything in front Engine........

ZAYED,,

 

[valvfloat]

thanks much ZAYED for the part #...!

 

[gsxr]

This is the fan support, it's what the pulley and fan clutch bolt up to. 119-150-08-70 is the correct part number. It's available via MB dealers as a "rebuilt" part for $84 plus a $60 core charge as p/n 119-150-08-70-88 if you need one.

 

[jano]

Hi there,

I took today off to swap out the fan clutch without removing the radiator. Short version: I didn't lose any limbs and the swap was successful. Here are some notes for your entertainment:

- I got the two of the three top-shroud bolts free, and discovered the third was seized in the shroud. This surprised me so much so that I dropped my ratchet. My little magnet-on-a-stick wasn't strong enough to bring it up, so I put on a powerful rare earth magnet, which simply got stuck to the front torsion bar. Had to lift up the car and remove the bottom sheath to get to both items.
- With the one bolt seized, I ended up have to cut the shroud slightly to get that bolt out. A little 2-part expoxy closed up the break, but I left the bolt out on reinstallation later
- Per Dave's suggestion, I cut up my 8mm hex wrench to about 29-30mm depth - was originally going to use a chop saw, but the friend had gone fishing (complete with sign, too), so just used a dremel. It worked.. Several of you here recommended getting a cheap one, however, I was lazy and used my craftsman one - and VERY glad I did. The torque required to break that center bolt was quite gnarly, having use one from horror freight would have made me lose a limb
- Getting that hex wrench in place only took a few minutes; my friend's gf has small hands which nimbly moved the wrench into place
- Couldn't figure out how to use the pulley holder I picked up from harbor fright; was afraid to put too much slack on the belt, and noticed my belt has a number of little cracks (grea, yet another thing to fix later, pffft). Instead, tried to wedge various items into the pulley to keep it from turning. Several hours, a hot dog, two root beers, a cherry pepsi, and over 273.37 four-letter words later, I looked at the FSM instructions, which so poignantly illustrated how to position the pulley holder behind the pulley itself, and had that bolt free in about 20 seconds. I used a foot long 1/2 inch ratchet extender on top of the hex wrench to give me torque
- I built a spinner tool similar to Dave's. The nubby left over from the first hex cutting was 2-part epoxied onto this zinc-based metal strip that was full of holes (so I wouldn't have to drill my own). The tool was pretty much useless, couldn't get the locomotion going properly. Took the tool apart, and just used the nubby part attached to the short strip, spun it quickly and worked well.
- I finally got to use my precision tools torque wrench for the first time, put the four bolts holding the new fan clutch to the fan at 10Nm, yay!
- Put it all back together, started the car up, and everything's fine!

I drove around for a while to get the temperature up higher, full a/c on, stop-n-go in about 80 degree ambiet temps. It wouldn't go. Dangit. 30 minutes later, it was barely at 90C (previously I would've been over the 100C mark). My oil pressure was showing 1 at stop lights, and depending on throttle position, 2-3 otherwise. Temp-wise, this thingy seems to be working. Decided to go home and just brute force it, and here's where I think I may have broken things? I hope not.

Car in park, with full a/c, I ran the throttle to about 4500 rpm. Watched the temp rise up to about 100C, shut off the engine. Stuck a white sticker onto the fan blade. Started up the car, and I was unable to get any reliable readings AT ALL. The clutch appeared to be working; it would spin faster at higher rpms, then slow down when it passed somewhere around 3500-4000. No roaring though, and we got readings from 100 to 1073 for the fan blade speed. At idle and in park and temps over 100C, my oil pressure was at 0 (haven't changed the oil pressure sending unit yet, next time). What was more disturbing: the car would "shudder" and drop RPMs when I hit about 5k. All this is probably not a good thing to do in park.... so I stopped.

I will try to get readings again some other day; I really want an "after". I can confirm one thing, however: with the old fan clutch, and the car OFF, the blade would spin just over 1/4 of a turn if I pushed it. With the new blade, it pretty much stops within 1/8 of a turn. So I believe it's working.

jano

 

[gsxr]

Congrats, Jano! Since the engine temps are reduced, it sounds like a success story to me!!

BTW - for fan blade readings via optical tach, put the reflective tape down on the center hub of the blade, not on the blade itself - too hard to get readings from the blade. On the hub it works great. On my old/good clutches, you can hear the 'roar' as you slowly increase RPM's, but the fan will disengage by 3500-3800rpm. So if you were revving to 4500, it would be disengaged. Lower revs to ~3k and mine will engage again. There may be a limiter preventing the revs from passing ~5k in Park, my one E420 does this (haven't tried the other one or my 500's). On the next hot day check the optical tach readings again with the reflective tape relocated.

 

[jano]

Okay, will give that a shot - I was trying to be consistent with my methodology. I think I had trouble getting a fan reading because we weren't working in the shade, possibly sun/glare interference. The readings I was trying to get were to be same as before, idle, 2k, 3k, and 4.5k. My ~5k was to make the engine hotter since it didn't really want to get there Anway, I'm glad it's working!

 

[BahnStorm]

So if your water temp is running 10-20 degrees above "normal" (9 o'clock position), on the highway on a mild temperature day, then your fan clutch is probably toast...? Seems like my car runs a few degrees hotter than it should, even with fresh coolant etc.

 

[gsxr]

So if your water temp is running 10-20 degrees above "normal" (9 o'clock position), on the highway on a mild temperature day, then your fan clutch is probably toast...? Seems like my car runs a few degrees hotter than it should, even with fresh coolant etc.

Maybe, maybe not. If the car is running over 100C on a mild day with the AC off, cruising on flat roads, something is probably not right. Hard to pin it on the clutch without additional diagnostics though. To fully test the clutch you really need a very warm (or hot!) day with the AC on.

 

[gerryvz]

My fan clutch is bad on my E500 and needs to be replaced. On summer days here in Houston (90-100F) the car either at high speeds, particularly going uphill, with the A/C on, will get to 105-110C -- that's well over the 100C hash line. At more moderate temperatures (80-85F) in the same conditions, the car will get up to 100-105C. At COLD ambient temperatures (70-80F) the car will get up to 95-100C.

In all of the above conditions, in normal cruising on flat with the A/C on or off, particularly on days with temps around 75-80F outside, I see 85-95C on the temp gauge.

A new fan clutch on my wife's E320 wagon this year solved a major high-temp problem she'd had for several years, where the car was regularly getting up to 110-115C. Even on the hottest summer days of 100F now, with the new factory fan clutch, temps of 90-95C are normal. I have yet to see the car go above the 100C line with the new fan clutch, even sitting in long traffic lights or in standing Houston traffic.

The problem is, that a new E500E fan clutch is a BOHICA item, particularly compared to an E320 unit.

Cheers,
Gerry

 

[jano]

What about the "push the fan" test with a cold car? My clutch was busted, and if I gave it a push, it would make a revolution or so. The new one comes to a halt almost immediately.

 

[gsxr]

What about the "push the fan" test with a cold car? My clutch was busted, and if I gave it a push, it would make a revolution or so. The new one comes to a halt almost immediately.

This test is mostly inconclusive, but if it will spin easily by hand with the engine/clutch cold, that's not a good sign and likely indicates a dead clutch. However resistance to the push by hand does not automatically mean the clutch is ok. Testing (OE) fan clutches is a serious PITA, as you recently discovered!

 

[kubasz]

hi 500E deivers
i'm from poland (europe) writing for a first time on 500Eboard.com
My 2001 sachs was weak as my m119 was reaching super high temps and i switched to VEMO and when driving behind of an new SLS AMG at 230 km/h my vemo refused to work. when i stoped i saw all silicone oil from vemo all around my m119. but i was lucky and everything else then vemo is good. it served only around 200 kilometers !!
btw i own 26/11/1992 500E 744 silver with black leather

best regards

 

[kubasz]

hi everyone

this week was a bad week for my 500E. i put oryginal sachs back on car and something weird happend.
the bimetalic strip broke my radiator really bad after reving it few times.
now is there any good radiator that i can use? maybe niessen or valeo? i can go to dealreship but maybe ther is a better way ($$$) to make may car drivable again.
the one on car was aftermarket banco.

 

[gerryvz]

Kubasz,

Sorry to hear this.

You should go with a Nissins or a Behr, with a Behr being preferred if you can get it. It's worth extra złoty for you to buy the Behr.

By the way, where in Poland are you located? I was just visiting Poland in June. For the second time in my life I visited Żagań, and also Oświęcim, near Krakow. I like Poland very much -- the people are friendly and the petrol is cheaper than most of the rest of Europe

Cheers,
Gerry

 

[kubasz]

gerryvz

i can get nissen more easy then behr and is 1/2 cheaper then behr.

I live in Radom, around 200kilometer north from Kraków.

 

[J-Sauce]

I received my ACM clutch from www.pelicanparts.com yesterday and there were no markings stating "Made in China", which I think must lawfully be displayed when sold in the US. There was labeling on the bag and box that say "acm Germany". Methinks they either have old stock, or they are still being made in Germany.

 

[gerryvz]

If it doesn't say "Made in Gemany" then IMHO it's suspect. "ACM Germany" does not mean that it was made in Germany -- this is commonplace for a company to have a [deceiving] place name in its trade name (kind of like Victoria's Secret which says "London" in its trade name, but is actually a US company with no real business presence there other than normal stores).

Can you post photos of the unit?

 

[J-Sauce]

Yes, I was suspect too but I do believe that if a product is manufactured in China, it must legally be labelled as so in the USA.

"U.S. law requires the country of origin of the product to be clearly displayed on the product, or on the product's container if it is enclosed." -Wikipedia

I'd be glad to throw up a few pics sometime this weekend.

 

[gerryvz]

That may be the requirement of US law, but when have the Chinese ever followed US law when it comes to trade goods, or anything else?

What I've learned with regard to MB parts, particularly on the aftermarket, is when something sounds/is priced too good to be true, it always is.

That being said, photos can tell a lot with regard to the quality of a unit, particularly side by side with a factory/OE/OEM unit.

Cheers,
Gerry

 

[gerryvz]

Re: Vicous Fan Clutch Replacement

Brief procedure to test your fan clutch:

The mechanical fan clutch will be fully engaged with the engine temp at 90C, and probably will have engaged at a lower temp. If it's not engaged by 90C, it's defective. With the car in park and temp at 90C or higher, pop the hood, and rev the engine slowly. The fan should roar loudly up to ~3500rpm, you can hear it disengage by 4000rpm, then let the revs drop slowly and the fan should re-engage by ~3000rpm. If yours doesn't do this, either the clutch is bad, or there is a blockage directly ahead of the clutch as it needs hot air to trigger the bimetal strip.

Per MB spec for the E500E, the viscous fan clutch on the E500E begins to engage at ~82C, whereas with other models this temperate was ~96C.

 

[gsxr]

Re: Vicous Fan Clutch Replacement

Per MB spec for the E500E, the viscous fan clutch on the E500E begins to engage at ~82C, whereas with other models this temperate was ~96C.

I've seen those specs in the factory docs, but I believe this is incorrect... AFAICT, the Sachs clutch for M119.96x/97x engines all engage at the same temp. It's also unclear if those numbers are coolant temp or air temp at the clutch itself, but it seems most likely to be coolant temp. This also doesn't match my "real world" observations on several M119 cars, particularly the ambient air temp and whether or not the AC is operating also has a significant effect on triggering the fan clutch. I should note that my 90C claim is on a warm day (>80F) with the AC on. On a cool day with AC off the clutch may not engage until the engine temp is higher.

EDIT: The factory documents are incorrect. Click here for a PDF file details.

Pics of ACM clutch are here. There is no sticker designating the country of origin, but the bearing is clearly Chinese. The ACM clutch I have (currently installed in my E420) does not disengage until approx 1000-1300rpm higher than a good OE/Sachs clutch. The ACM clutch also engages at much lower temps than the OE/Sachs.

 

[gerryvz]

I believe it may have been initially correct for early cars, but MB may have revised it for the mid to late 1992 and beyond models.

 

[gsxr]

I believe it may have been initially correct for early cars, but MB may have revised it for the mid to late 1992 and beyond models.

I'm not even sure if that would explain it... I have found more than one significant discrepancy in factory documentation, and I believe it's just a plain ol' error... same as the error in the specs which show the M119 clutch disengagement RPM's (which I have previously documented in a different thread).

It's sorta kinda semantics though, if your engine is running at an indicated ~100C on a warm day with the AC blasting and an optical tach on the fan blade shows it never spinning above 400rpm, you can be pretty confident the clutch is toast.

 

[J-Sauce]

Re: Vicous Fan Clutch Replacement

Pics of ACM clutch are here. There is no sticker designating the country of origin, but the bearing is clearly Chinese.

Weird (and maybe good for me) my bearing is marked as made in Canada. I meant to post that before, but must have forgotten. Sorry, no pics yet. I'm off work Friday and I'll take a big picture of everything I bought for this job.

 

[kubasz]

Hi 500E drivers
today i received VFC for my 500E. I ordered it at dealership and it turns out that now horton makes it. also my new niessens radiator is in it's place now. here few photos from under hood.
I know that it is easier to put VFC with radiator off but i just could not resist to install it

 

[FiveHundredE]

Anyone replaced their fan clutch completely with an electric fan set up?

 

[Jelmer]

Why would you do that? The amount air the viscous fan moves is insane, I doubt any electrical fan can live up to that.

That said, how much time does it take for a new clutch to settle in? I've driven 1000km+ but it still roars at engine start for quite a while....

 

[gsxr]

FiveHundredE, yes, NeilV has converted to a Spal electric fan in his 500E. He says it works fine, but for normal street use, I tend to agree with Jelmer... the mechanical fan likely moves a lot more air, especially when the engine is above idle. The electric fan might move more air at idle though. An alternator upgrade to 143A-150A is required (not a big deal, I put the larger alternator on all my cars anyway). Properly size electric fans are expensive, $300-$400 USD, plus the cost of the alternator, wiring, and installation. So there isn't much cost savings.

Jelmer, if you installed an aftermarket (ACM / Vemo) clutch, these do tend to roar when cold for quite a while, and not disengage until the engine revs past ~3k or so. This is different from the OE Sachs clutch, which normally will not roar after a cold start, even when new. What brand clutch did you install?

 

[Jelmer]

Crud. I believe they installed Vemo. I'll ask Thursday when I'm going there for the final gearbox tune-up.

Combined with the delayed upshift with a cold engine this is really annoying. I feel I wake the whole neighborhood

 

[gsxr]

The cold upshift delay is easy to eliminate... disconnect the appropriate vacuum hose leading to the Bowden cable, and plug both openings - that should fix it. Just make sure you plug the correct one, as Euro-spec cars will have two hoses & two solenoids going to the Bowden cable... one is for the E/S switch, the other is for the cold upshift delay.

 

[FiveHundredE]

GSXR, do you know where I can source a low mileage OE fan clutch for our cars?

 

[gsxr]

GSXR, do you know where I can source a low mileage OE fan clutch for our cars?

Nope. Only source I know of is to buy one new... something like $525 USD from parts.com, last I checked.

 

[Jelmer]

It seems the brand of my clutch is Vebi, which, according to the mechanic dudes, is the brand Mercedes buys, slaps their stamp on it, and sells for triple the money.

 

[gsxr]

You can tell by looking at it what brand it is... the OE clutchs are signifcantly larger (thicker) than the aftermarket clutches. If yours looks like the Sachs clutch below (far right), it's OE. If not, it's aftermarket and definitely not OE.

 

[Jelmer]

Well, I guess they are either wrong or simply mis-informed. This is the clutch I have now:


Distance between fan and radiator (somehow strikes me as odd):

 

[gsxr]

Well, I guess they are either wrong or simply mis-informed.

Absolutely correct. You have an ACM, Vemo, or other aftermarket clutch (re-labeled as Febi). That is most definitely not OE/OEM which would be Sachs or Horton.

 

[Jelmer]

I guess your advice would be to inform them and tell them I'd like to swap for an OEM? (Mechanic already hinted towards that solution).

 

[gsxr]

If it's in your budget.... that would be the preferred option.

 

[mb280sel1985]

The cold upshift delay is easy to eliminate... disconnect the appropriate vacuum hose leading to the Bowden cable, and plug both openings - that should fix it. Just make sure you plug the correct one, as Euro-spec cars will have two hoses & two solenoids going to the Bowden cable... one is for the E/S switch, the other is for the cold upshift delay.

I just bumped into this comment.

Are they the two (mine is Euro-spec) vacuum hoses sitting at the right upper side of the transmission?

A year ago or so, my mechanic plugged two hoses that were just hanging from the side of the transmission. He couldn't find anywhere to connect them.

Just make sure you plug the correct one

Are you saying that the cold upshift delay hose should be plugged, but the E/S switch must not be plugged?
And what does the E/S switch translate to?

Hope I'm not way off misunderstanding

 

[gsxr]

I just bumped into this comment. Are they the two (mine is Euro-spec) vacuum hoses sitting at the right upper side of the transmission? A year ago or so, my mechanic plugged two hoses that were just hanging from the side of the transmission. He couldn't find anywhere to connect them. Are you saying that the cold upshift delay hose should be plugged, but the E/S switch must not be plugged? And what does the E/S switch translate to?

There are two vacuum hoses on the right (passenger) side of the transmission, which attach to the Bowden cable assembly. One is for the cold upshift delay, the other is for the E/S switch function. If both hoses are disconnected and plugged, that's fine, as long as the vacuum source has also been plugged so you don't get a vacuum leak when the E/S switch is in "E" mode and also when the engine is cold. The vacuum source is behind the brake booster area, there are several vac lines present, and one or two vacuum solenoids where those two tubes would normally have connected. Kinda depends if the mechanic plugged them at the transmission end, or the chassis end, hard to tell without photos. It's nearly impossible to attach the tubes to the Bowden cable with the transmission in the car.

The photo below shows the USA-spec version with only one vacuum tube, note where it connects, you can't even see this from under the car. The Euro version with E/S switch has a red section below the green where the second vac tube would attach.

 

[mb280sel1985]

If both hoses are disconnected and plugged, that's fine, as long as the vacuum source has also been plugged so you don't get a vacuum leak when the E/S switch is in "E" mode and also when the engine is cold. The vacuum source is behind the brake booster area, there are several vac lines present, and one or two vacuum solenoids where those two tubes would normally have connected. Kinda depends if the mechanic plugged them at the transmission end, or the chassis end, hard to tell without photos. It's nearly impossible to attach the tubes to the Bowden cable with the transmission in the car.

This is interesting. Thanks for the great picture Dave.

Aren't these two vacuum hoses responsible for any function? Wouldn't it have any impact on driving?

The only thing my mechanic did, was to plug the ones hanging on the side of the transmission. So you are saying that unless he also plugged them closed at the vacuum source (in the engine compartment..?), my car may be experiencing a vacuum leak? I have surging issues, major while standstill at throttle, but also noticable when driving and applying constant throttle.

 

[Christian_K]

Update on the BERU unit. Overview: http://www.beru.com/products/fan-components
Order Number: 0 720 002 043
Code Designation: LK 043

Seems to be highest quality. Question is still "where to buy" ?Got
Got it together with alternatives: http://www.daparto.de/Teilenummernsuche/Teile/Beru/0720002043
"Meyle" usually produces very high quality parts for a reasonable price. I think next Summer i will give one of them a go.

Another Link with alternatives: http://www.daparto.de/Teilenummernsuche/Teile/Alle-Hersteller/1192000122
"AVA Cooling Systems" is also not bad either, i have the viscous clutch from them in my C36AMG and it works. Price was cheap 40€ IIRC. No Idea how that below 50€ Part would work in our 500Es tough...

 

[gerryvz]

"Meyle" usually produces very high quality parts for a reasonable price. I think next Summer i will give one of them a go.

I would not and cannot recommend Meyle as a quality parts provider, across the board. I have seen first-hand the quality of their rubber products and it leaves something to be desired, particularly in comparison to MB rubber. I'm talking motor mounts, suspension rubber kits, door/trunk rubber seals, and so forth. Based on this experience I would NOT trust the quality of their fan clutches. Recommend going with a more trusted aftermarket brand (Beru, Sachs, etc.) or sticking with factory.

Cheers,
Gerry

 

[gsxr]

Update on the BERU unit. Overview: http://www.beru.com/products/fan-components
Order Number: 0 720 002 043
Got it together with alternatives: http://www.daparto.de/Teilenummernsuche/Teile/Beru/0720002043

Check out the diagram of the Beru clutch... it appears to be the type used on the 119.985 engine with the hex-nut attachment, NOT the type that will fit our 119.974 engines. Sorry. Photo below of what I think the Beru clutch will will like on the back side (119.985 Sachs clutch in photo).

 

[Christian_K]

Thanks for your input Gerry. Indeed i also had troubles with Meyle Parts (Doorlock bands on my former W201). However the independent shop i'm currently at regularly uses Meyle parts for his customers and never had issues he said. He usually uses the so called "HD" Parts if available for all suspension/axis parts, for which the manufacturer (Meyle) gives a very extended parts-guarantee. Still one should give it a go a verify it, how good the quality is.

EDIT: Dave the pictures showed at "daparto.de" are often just examples. Beru lists this Part Number ONLY fitting for W124.036/034 and E60AMG. I don't think they made a mistake there.
The corresponding TECDOC image to that Partnumber is this: