• Hi Guest !

    Welcome to the 500Eboard forum.

    Since its founding in late 2008, 500Eboard has become the leading resource on the Internet for all things related to the Mercedes-Benz 500E and E500. In recent years, we have also expanded to include the 400E and E420 models, which are directly related to the 500E/E500.

    We invite you to browse and take advantage of the information and resources here on the site. If you find helpful information, please register for full membership, and you'll find even more resources available. Feel free to ask questions, and make liberal use of the "Search" function to find answers.

    We hope you will become an active contributor to the community!

    Sincerely,
    500Eboard Management

Sun Valley Mercedes Rebuilt Trans Problem

Status
Not open for further replies.

Kyiv

1993 400E | Azov мой кумир!
Member
The rear gear on my car (1993 400E, 112 mi odo) went out (no issue with forward gears) and was supposedly fully rebuilt by the prominent(?) Sun Valley Mercedes. About 40 months and 7k miles later no longer will shift into 3rd gear. No delay between P to R, P to D, or R to D

At about 45 mph I am at 4,000 rpm. What's the safe speed/rpm not to cause further damage to transmission? I still need to make a 2 round trips today and tomorrow before it gets to the shop for evaluation. Trips are 12 miles each way/25 min, total of 2 round trips


Thanks
 
First check - make sure fluid level is correct. I doubt this is your issue, but rule out the easy stuff first. I assume you did the fluid / filter change somewhere around 3kmi as recommended after the rebuild? (I forget the exact time/miles they specify.)

RPM's shouldn't damage the trans, but it gets tiring cruising around at 4000rpm. Keep an eye on engine temps. You should be fine for a couple of 12 mile trips.

If the shop doesn't find anything amiss, i.e. the pan is clean inside, fluid is not dark, no abnormal odor... I'd be tempted to swap the valve body with a different one, if available. I wonder what Sun Valley normally does with VB's when they rebuild a 722.3 trans.

:detective:
 
Dave,

trans fluid was changes after 2 years/5k miles (5-6 moths/2k miles ago), per Sun Valley recommendation. It came out clean. Fluid level re-checked, it's proper. No leaking.

So, in your opinion, driving 45 mph at 4k rpm for 50 minutes will no be overheating transmission fluid? It's not synthetic, it's the regular Dexron something, exactly the one that's recommended for this car.
 
The high RPM shouldn't overheat the transmission. Usually, high ATF temps are caused by high loads, i.e. towing, or extended full throttle. Cruising at light throttle (even at 4000 RPM) generally should not be an issue. I wouldn't be crazy about doing that for hours on end, but 12 miles each way should be fine.

:klink:
 
When they do a rebuild, it’s just the transmission, not the valve body. I asked specifically for a FGS VB and he supplied one for me. I think I sent him mine as a core, but maybe not. I remember offering, don’t remember sending it. But I offered because he did the extra VB as a service to me, which is how I know VB is not the usual case. To the OP’s issue, is the VB the only thing external to the transmission that would cause failure of 2-3 shift?

maw
 
To the OP’s issue, is the VB the only thing external to the transmission that would cause failure of 2-3 shift?

maw

That's a good question. Going for diagnostic today and will report back

By the way, GSXR, 30 minutes of driving at 3,500 - 4,500 rpm got my coolant a few times, very briefly, to 95c in 63f ambient. New fan clutch is working really good
 
To the OP’s issue, is the VB the only thing external to the transmission that would cause failure of 2-3 shift?
maw, I believe so, but we'd need a pro like Jono or Klink to confirm. I can't think of any other internal item that would allow a normal 1-2 upshift, and zero 2-3 upshift.

kiev, what happens if you floor the pedal and let it go to redline in 2nd gear? Does it just hang at the rev limiter in 2nd? (Don't worry, this doesn't hurt anything if you try it, just don't keep it bouncing off the rev limiter).
 
maw, I believe so, but we'd need a pro like Jono or Klink to confirm. I can't think of any other internal item that would allow a normal 1-2 upshift, and zero 2-3 upshift.

kiev, what happens if you floor the pedal and let it go to redline in 2nd gear? Does it just hang at the rev limiter in 2nd? (Don't worry, this doesn't hurt anything if you try it, just don't keep it bouncing off the rev limiter).

If feels exactly as driving manually in a 2nd gear. If a let go of the gas pedal the rpm start to drop under natural engine braking.
 
If feels exactly as driving manually in a 2nd gear. If a let go of the gas pedal the rpm start to drop under natural engine braking.
So it hangs at 6000rpm if you keep the throttle pinned, and still refuses to shift to 3rd?

:scratchchin:
 
So it hangs at 6000rpm if you keep the throttle pinned, and still refuses to shift to 3rd?

:scratchchin:
I did not redlined it. Yesterday transmission service station owner test drove it and said "it does refuse to shift to 3rd". Maybe he redlined it. it's at the station right now to determine whether rebuild is required. The shop is County Transmissions in Vienna, VA
 
Got it. Let us know what they say. It's unlikely the transmission itself needs another rebuild, but it wouldn't surprise me if the valvebody may be at fault. Most shops wouldn't want to bother with that level of diagnosis (or, are unable to, since you need another known-good 722.3 VB from an M119 trans).

:pc1:
 
I am hoping a rebuild will not be necessary in your case on an ... already rebuilt transmission. Why don't you give Sun Valley a call, explain them the symptoms and see what they advise? You bought it from them so they should feel a bit obligated to advise.... perhaps even more. You may find out you are not the only one experiencing this, they have a ton of knowledge and could offer a solution. All they do all day long is MB transmissions ...
 
Its out of warranty, which was 24 months. It has been about 40 months since rebuilt. But only 7k miles. A local diagnostic result avoids over-the-phone guessing. Once I know what the issue and its scope/price, I'll explore next step
 
Well, the shop did their diagnostics. It's something internal to transmission. I figured, per suggestions here, I'll give a call to Mark, just for a check mark that I tried. To my surprise, despite warranty expiring 14 months ago, he said to ship it to him and his shop will fix it. Left me quite speechless. Nice to know old-school people still exist in our superficial times.

Still a $2k endeavor - removal, re-installation, shipping. The shop here said it's a $2,500 - $4,150 job, based how bad the situation is. Marc said it should be something simple, since all of the innards are new.

Thinking if I should go with a local, crossing fingers for a $2,500 situation and have a 3 year/150k mi warranty and convenience or go for guaranteed $2k, but no local shop to bother in case of an issue? What would you guys do?
 
...but it wouldn't surprise me if the valvebody may be at fault. Most shops wouldn't want to bother with that level of diagnosis (or, are unable to, since you need another known-good 722.3 VB from an M119 trans)...
I would certainly agree with Dave. It is amazing how much "havoc" a valve body could cause, even if everything looks good inside, ask me how I know :stickpoke:

If this was my car, before diving into rebuilds, I would certainly call Sunvalley first for their input, and I would indeed try swapping for a known good valve body first, maybe even FGS, its a low cost "diagnostic" that can be achieved in about an hour with full drop.

Good luck!
Regards,
D
 
Clarification. The shop that did the evaluation would the remove your Sun Valley tranny, ship it to SV, and then re-install the tranny? Their quote for that work was $2 grand?
 
Clarification. The shop that did the evaluation would the remove your Sun Valley tranny, ship it to SV, and then re-install the tranny? Their quote for that work was $2 grand?

It's $1,650 for work to remove and reinstall + my cost of freight to SV = about $2k. 14.5 hours of labor per book
 
I'd do what Duh Vinci says. First go with the valve body option.

If that is unsuccessful, then as a 2nd option I'd go with shipping it to Sun Valley for the repair. I'd be leary about giving your local shop a $2 grand to $4 grand range for a rebuild. It sounds like Sun Valley stands behind their work. I wouldn't be too concerned about having "a local shop to bother if there's an issue".

My 2 cents.

P.S. I've had two 400E tranny rebuilds and looking at one for my 500E. I'm not an expert, but I have some opinions
 
I think you’re missing something here. Sun Valley is THE expert, and Marc is friendly and helpful. This is not about a warranty, and he almost certainly WILL know whether it’s the trans or the VB or something else. You have to do what GSXR said and see if it hangs all the way to the redline or shifts somewhere before. For instance, if there’s zero vacuum pressure (modulator gone), will the box shift? Marc will know the answer to that. As someone else said, all they do is MB transmissions, all day everyday, for at least a decade. No local trans shop diagnosis is going to match that experience.

GL

maw
 
You need a new shop. Removing and reinstalling that transmission should be a $500 job, max. If your shop won't do it for that, find one that will.

There is no thinking to do here. Pull it, ship it to van nuys to let them figure it out, then put it in your car and be happy. Your mechanic is already trying to rip you off for more than the shipping would cost. Maybe you can get Sun Valley to send you a label to ship it on their freight account and just add the cost to your bill. Fedex ground business rate on a crated transmission would be cheap.

87 300TD om606 compound turbo
94 e420
85 300tdt
 
I think you’re missing something here. Sun Valley is THE expert, and Marc is friendly and helpful. This is not about a warranty, and he almost certainly WILL know whether it’s the trans or the VB or something else. You have to do what GSXR said and see if it hangs all the way to the redline or shifts somewhere before. For instance, if there’s zero vacuum pressure (modulator gone), will the box shift? Marc will know the answer to that. As someone else said, all they do is MB transmissions, all day everyday, for at least a decade. No local trans shop diagnosis is going to match that experience.

GL

maw

Thanks for sharing your opinion. It will not up shift into 3rd at all. Just hangs at red line. I've also noticed that 1-2 shift can have a slight kick to it on uphills. Not the positive engagement, but a slight, soft, but a kick to it.

When the transmission was rebuild, it was super smooth for the first 2-3 weeks, but then on occasion, I would get a soft kick between 2-3 shifts. I could never replicate it on purpose, but If I drove for 30-40 minutes, it would happen, on average, once.

As soon as I moved to VA - of course - it has gotten a bit more frequent. Once I've changed ATF here it has gotten even more frequent with a bigger kick. I could avoid it 90% by modulating throttle and then 1 month ago it became a jerk-kick, developed a flare here and there and thumps and thunks. And one morning no more shifting into 3rd. Replacement ATF was the proper Dexron III and fluid level re-check twice according to instructions.

The local shop said they don't think, preliminary, that it's a valve body issue. But they do fix them in-house. I assume if this shop does it, Sun Valley must have inspected my valve body too...

Ideally, I'd like to take most direct path with the least amount of kinks and have the issue solved - and out of my mind. Though, naturally, I wouldn't mind some kinks if I'm at $2,500 or below vs $4,150.

My current train of thought: if it turns out that valve body is not the culprit, (or not the only culprit), swapping it will add several(?) hundred dollars to the endeavor (labor + new fluid) + inconvenience, with transmission having to come out and be put back anyways....

The local shop has been in business since 1973 and current owner started as tech in it in 1983. He's reminiscent of a member of "the greatest generation" - "Good morning, sir", "yes sir", "thank you, sir"; humble attitude. No fake exaggeration of friendliness. Just basic old-world politeness. He test drives and deals with customers directly. Shop is very clean, with out puffery.

Prices are because it's NoVa, close to DC and the 3 employees that do the rebuild are all Americans. I strongly suspect this is a shop with close to zero employee turn over. And this is why I'm torn between sending it to Mark at guaranteed $2k or hoping for $2,500 here, but having a 3 year/150k mi warranty locally.

I think what I'll do is ask them how many hours of labor it will take them to determine the scope of rebuilt and if it's about 2 and the outcome is $4,150, I'll have them assemble transmission back and will ship it to Mark. If it's $2,500, as of right now, I'm thinking of letting them do the rebuild.

Thanks for everyone sharing their opinions!
 
Last edited:
You need a new shop. Removing and reinstalling that transmission should be a $500 job, max. If your shop won't do it for that, find one that will.

There is no thinking to do here. Pull it, ship it to van nuys to let them figure it out, then put it in your car and be happy. Your mechanic is already trying to rip you off for more than the shipping would cost. Maybe you can get Sun Valley to send you a label to ship it on their freight account and just add the cost to your bill. Fedex ground business rate on a crated transmission would be cheap.

87 300TD om606 compound turbo
94 e420
85 300tdt

ATG, local shop told me that by the book removal and re-installation of transmission is 14.5 hours. Does that sound correct? Labor rate here, in NoVA seems to be $115...
 
That's a thorough write up Kiev. When I did mine, I kept Marc on speed dial for consultation and troubleshooting. He was very generous with his time. My shop actually made a mistake with the install the first time (dowel pin), which he was able to diagnose over the phone. Over the years since, we've kept in touch, and I've seen how much he actually knows about these things. He values his name and likes happy customers. It's worth it, in my opinion, to talk to him about it (phone), and together with your shop decide upon a plan of action. My $.03, which is slightly more than my usual $.02. Good luck.

maw
 
Thanks! I will have the local shop's owner speak with Mark on the phone. It has crossed my mind too
 
Thanks! I will have the local shop's owner speak with Mark on the phone. It has crossed my mind too
I lived in DC for about eight years and I know a lot of those shops. They will all get as much money out of you as they can, pretty much. There are a ton of them. If you are paying 2k for a tranny r and r you might as well move to Santa Monica.

If I were you, I would call Randy out at the auto shoppe in Silver Spring and ask him how much to r and r a 124 transmission that is under warranty from Sun Valley. Compare it to your number. Or just drop by there sometime. I had lots of stuff done there back in the day, and I would bet it hasnt changed much if he is still running it.

I cant guarantee it will be cheaper that what you have been quoted, but if it is the same I would offer him a grand and see if he bites. They will have that thing out of there in less than an hour and in again in not much more.

Worst case scenario is you confirm your current guy is fair. I'm thinking that isn't going to happen, though. 2k is fair labor for a head r and r. Tranny? Not so much.

No relationship. I just went there for several years and used to have a 190sl that pretty much lived in bay 5.

87 300TD om606 compound turbo
94 e420
85 300tdt
 
UPDATE.

During the diagnostics, the shop measured and reduced pressure in transmission. This returned 3rd gear, but when engaged, it's not connected to the engine. So with higher pressure no shift to 3rd. With lower pressure it will, but the engine will free-spin.

They'll speak with Mark and will get back to me. Will make a decision whether to gamble then
 
Transmission is out of the car already. Went to look at it in person. Just waiting on Mark to return local shop's owner voicemail.

Transmission mount looks like new, and rear engine seal is absolutely dry. Owner says he wouldn't change them. But the front flex disk has a few minor cracks, so I'd like to replace it, given the chance. There is Meyle branded one at $62, part number 1294100115. Then there is "OEM" (I assume it's original Mercedes part) at $102 with a part number 1294100115A

Does anyone know what A at the end adds? Is it worth saving $40 and going with Meyle?


Tnanks
 
DO NOT use Meyle!! Get the "OEM", which should be an SGF-branded flex disc.

IIRC, Klink has mentioned in the past that a few hairline cracks in the flex disc are generally nothing to worry about. I'd only use an SGF disc.
 
Mercedes does not append letters onto part numbers. Did you get this from some on-line catalog?

Daimler AG will generally will append an extra pair of numbers to a part number to indicate a production change of some sort -- often when the OEM changes (for example, from Bosch to Beru for spark plugs, or from Mahle to Mann for filters, or Pagid to Jurid for brake pads).

DO NOT EVER use Meyle for a critical part like a flex disc. Either use (as GSXR indicates) an SGF unit (SGF is the OEM for MB) or an MB factory unit.

You MAY be able to order a Febi boxed flex disc -- for some years now, the flex discs in Febi boxes are often re-boxed SGF units. I would consider ordering one and checking it out, and if it is not an SGF, returning it. Or just spend the extra $40 and get an MB unit (or use a discounter of factory parts such as www.mboemparts.com with our forum discount code of 500EPROMO for free shipping).

Cheers,
Gerry
 
DO NOT use Meyle!! Get the "OEM", which should be an SGF-branded flex disc.

IIRC, Klink has mentioned in the past that a few hairline cracks in the flex disc are generally nothing to worry about. I'd only use an SGF disc.

They are hairline cracks. 3 of them. About 1-1.5 inches long. If guru says nothing to worry about, I guess I'll re-use it. Wonder though how much lifespan is left after they've developed though. I hate not knowing even vaguely on a subject matter. If it's 50%+ that's good. If it's 30% or less, I'd change it...
Mercedes does not append letters onto part numbers. Did you get this from some on-line catalog?

Daimler AG will generally will append an extra pair of numbers to a part number to indicate a production change of some sort -- often when the OEM changes (for example, from Bosch to Beru for spark plugs, or from Mahle to Mann for filters, or Pagid to Jurid for brake pads).

DO NOT EVER use Meyle for a critical part like a flex disc. Either use (as GSXR indicates) an SGF unit (SGF is the OEM for MB) or an MB factory unit.

You MAY be able to order a Febi boxed flex disc -- for some years now, the flex discs in Febi boxes are often re-boxed SGF units. I would consider ordering one and checking it out, and if it is not an SGF, returning it. Or just spend the extra $40 and get an MB unit (or use a discounter of factory parts such as www.mboemparts.com with our forum discount code of 500EPROMO for free shipping).

Cheers,
Gerry

Gerry, part number with an "A" at the end is from FCPeuro. www.mboemparts.com doesn't recognize it, but part number with out "A" is recognized, though it says "doesn't" fit my 1993 400E.... Where do you guys look up part number? FCPeuro and eeuroparts.com are providing me with 1294100115 for a front flex disk for my car
 
I changed mine on GP when the trans was out, with OE, no reason not to. You’ll feel the difference in reduced driveline slack — just more solid during shifts. Unless a new one went in with the rebuild, it’s likely 25 year old rubber. Any car part that isn’t metal or glass (or maybe cloth or leather) is likely past its date at 25yo, as far as I’m concerned. While I’m not taking the car apart to get to them, if I encounter them for other reasons...

maw
 
Several of us on this forum have Laws ... similar to the fundamental Laws of Science.

My laws pertain to deferred maintenance levels.

GSXR's laws pertain to factory parts, reference manuals, and information about using them.

GSXR's First Commandment states "Thou shalt use no other reference than the MB EPC for part numbers."

What this means, is that you should ONLY use factory MB information for looking up and referencing factory part numbers.

This means the Mercedes-Benz Electronic Parts Catalog (EPC) or ISPPI (which I affectionately call the "Pee-Pee"). These two sources are the most accurate, and up-to-date, sources of information for MB factory part numbers. On-line vendor part catalogs, eBay, The Google, etc. are NEVER to be relied upon for supplying factory part numbers.

The Pee-Pee states that the factory part number for the flex disc for a 1993 400E is: 129 410 01 15
 

Attachments

  • Screen Shot 2019-04-02 at 6.13.12 PM.jpg
    Screen Shot 2019-04-02 at 6.13.12 PM.jpg
    252 KB · Views: 14
  • Screen Shot 2019-04-02 at 6.13.21 PM.jpg
    Screen Shot 2019-04-02 at 6.13.21 PM.jpg
    13.3 KB · Views: 13
  • Screen Shot 2019-04-02 at 6.13.29 PM.jpg
    Screen Shot 2019-04-02 at 6.13.29 PM.jpg
    36.4 KB · Views: 14
Mercedes only uses numerals at the end of their part numbers (AFAIK). Any time there's a letter suffix, like the "A" appended in this example, it is almost always an aftermarket vendor (FCP Euro, in this case) differentiating between OE/OEM and aftermarket (non-OEM). I've seen this at other vendors too. Note the "A" suffix is appended to the Meyle part number, not the OEM part:
https://www.fcpeuro.com/products?utf8=✓&keywords=1294100115

Mercedes does use letters at the beginning of their part numbers, which can be confusing... as the vast majority of part websites will not recognize the "complete" MB part number including the letter prefix. The complete MB part number for the flex disc is actually A1294100115 however you need to drop the A prefix when entering the number at all part vendor websites. About the only time you need the first letter is if it happens to be "Q" (3rd-party accessories) or "S" (documentation). For HWA- prefix numbers, you need the "WA", but drop the "H". Confused yet?

As Gerry mentioned above, the EPC (or new XPISS, Xentry Parts) is the only accurate source for part numbers. 129-410-01-15 is correct for front & rear flex disc on all 124.034/.036 chassis.
 
Thank you for your help and information. Especial thanks to Maw for saving me from GSXR's crafty, malevolent, and perfidious attempt to make me keep a 26 year old flex disk on my money pit :lightning:
 
As Gerry mentioned above, the EPC (or new XPISS, Xentry Parts) is the only accurate source for part numbers. 129-410-01-15 is correct for front & rear flex disc on all 124.034/.036 chassis.
Just be sure your nuts and bolts are going the right way :stickpoke:
 
Well.... Local shop opened up transmission. They called me and asked me to come in to take a look. I was led to the work bench were I was shown all of the parts and received thorough technical commentary. Because I'm not versed in technical vocabulary of transmission innards and English is my 3rd language, I unfortunately cannot properly repeat it. Topologically I understood everything. I'll ask the shop to provide me with a written assessment, and will post it here later. In a nutshell: the transmission is destroyed inside and was not properly rebuilt. Below are some pictures but several destroyed parts are not in them.

7k miles on it. Looking at $3,500

80212
80213
80214
80215
80216
80217
80218
80219
 
Last edited:
OMG. What the heck! Very interested in what the technical failure(s) were.

Can you explain the images with the areas circled in red? I'm not quite sure what's being highlighted there.

:duck:
 
Dave, I'll ask the shop to do the write up and will re-post it here. Picture with red circles are of a drum. It should be flush in its housing around the perimeter, like in the 1st picture. It's not. Most everything looked ugly, melted, scratched, destroyed. The two pins you see, the "after-market" one was put in by SV.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Looks like all of the clutch material is off the clutch packs and in the pan. Not good.

Ouch.

Dan
 
I'd be burning up the phone lines to Marc at Sun Valley, sending him these photos and having you shop explain what they found to him. Dollars to donuts that he would provide another unit free of charge or for a minimal charge. Then, you would only be out the money for R&R, which should be a LOT less than $3,500.

FYI, to my knowledge Sun Valley generally charges ~$1,800-2,000 shipped to provide a rebuilt transmission, less any R&R which would be done locally by your shop or yourself.

Sounds like you got a bunk rebuild; I bet pretty strongly that Sun Valley would stand behind it. You would probably need the original invoice/documentation from Sun Valley when they rebuilt it -- hopefully you have that.
 
I'm curious which clutch discs are fried... are those reverse clutches, or K1, or K2? I don't know internal bits well enough to identify them visually. Based on the "no 3rd gear" symptom, I'm guessing those are K1 clutches.

Kiev, were there any symptoms prior to losing the upshift from 2nd gear? Or had the tranny been shifting perfectly up to that point?

:runexe:
 
Sorry to hear that- it's a do over. I wouldn't attempt fixing that one. Shop should buy a core with a clean pan and proceed to do soft parts overhaul. Make sure you flush the cooler lines and replace the convertor.
 
Why hasn't anyone called me on this issue? This transmission should do an easy 100K.
Just so you know, We will pick up and rebuild this unit at no charge (assuming it is ours).
Call me at 818 7822300
Marc
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top