Camshaft Sensor and Crankshaft Sensor persisting code.

[matzbats80]

1992 500E | 169,000 miles | Ran like a top until I took it to a shop.

Okay, everyone, first love the website, and thank you, everyone, for sharing your knowledge. I took my car to a shop here in Seattle that assured me they work on these old Mercedes all the time. Well, they really did a number on my car. Here is what was done at the shop.

-Rebuild transmission from Mercedes and sent from Germany.
-Removed the engine.
-replaced head gaskets
-replaced valve cover gasket
-rear main seal
-pretty much all gaskets were replaced.
-New sparkplug wires and spark plugs (I'm working on taking those our and checking the gap. They said they came pre-gapped from Mercedes but does that mean .8ml? I know it should be 1 or 1.1Ml thanks to you all.) (also, the wires do not seem correct. Not sure what they looked like before, but they all seem too long. They could be aftermarket something. I will check the resistance shortly as I'm waiting for my shop remodel to complete.)
-New steering box
-New bushings
-new timing chain and guides
-Crankshaft seals
-tensioner

Okay, that is how it all started last year, around September. The car ran GREAT before this.

I get the car back from the shop, and it is among down on power by maybe 20 - 25%. (my SL320 is likely fast than it now, and my 600S is certainly faster than my 500E. The car has a slightly rough idle. Like it is missing but not fully missing. The car will die if you give it too much gas too quickly from a start. You have to feather the throttle to keep running. Then it goes but with limited power. Sometimes you can feel the power come on intermittently. Also, the car does not want to shift down often unless you floor it to the click. Even then, sometimes it won't.

I hooked the car up to MB Star, and Some of the diagnostic modules were struggling to read consistently. So I started to replace more stuff. List to follow.

-EGAS Module
-LH Module
-ASR Module
-MAF
-Throttle body
-Crankshaft position sensor (still need to shim it) | Still get this code as well.
-Camshaft position sensor | Still get this code as well.
-Camshaft magnets
-Fuel injectors
-All breather hoses and vacuum lines. (none detected using the smoke test.)

MB star values. Keeping in mind, I have no idea what some of these values mean, I will share in hopes that you do.

First car runs better cold. Idle is smoother and acceleration seems better

LH1
Oxygen sensor voltage Fluxuates between 172 and 660mV.
The car is running idle at around 661 but will dip to low 600.
On/Off ratio cold sticks to about 50% once warm fluxuates between 35 and 41%

EZ1 (006 Current fault Camshaft PS L5/1) Stored Fault: 006 Camshart Position Sensor) I will frequently also get a Crankshaft.

Ignition angle 17.0 but fluxuates (rough idle) down to 13.4 at times.
tml 30 at 14.6V
Intake manifold pressure 655-670 mbar

No readings for ignition voltage or combustion time/cycl. (my other 500 E gave these readings.

DM I cannot get this module to read easily. Is this normal or an issue? Sometimes it will establish communication but more often then not it won't. I was lucky today.

Current fault 022 camshaft
Stored fault 022 camshaft and 013 camshaft.
Actual values indicates that all sensors are reporting back to the DM.
Absol intake manifold pressure is 370 mbar

I can unplug the camshaft sensor and it makes no difference in how the car idles.

I will look for your replies thank you in advance this has been frustrating. Let me know what your next steps would be. I have considered coil, re-gap spark plugs, checking resistance on plug wires. Ignition module. replace O2's. Perhaps the reading above will tell you guys something that I can't see.

Is there a magnet inside on the camshaft itself the shop could have messed up which gives me the CSP error? My wiring harness appears to be dated 4/2009. I did check the wires and they look new. HELP!

-Matt

 

[gsxr]

There should not be communication problems with the DM. Check the 38-pin socket for signs of corrosion.

You should get ignition voltage and combustion time live data, assuming you are using Mercedes SDS C3/C4, not some other digital scanner.

Wild guessing - I would pull the valve covers, or at least the driver side, and verify the cams pin correctly at spec. If the cam timing is off, that could cause the cam sensor faults and power loss. Do you have a spare EZL to try?

Plugs are pre-gapped to 0.8mm but even if the gap was way off, it shouldn't cause the problems you describe. New coils are a good idea but again, that wouldn't cause camshaft codes or major power loss; ditto for the wires (what brand are the wires?).

There are 2 metal "blocks" on the driver intake cam which the cam sensor reads. Photo below. Again, you need to pull the valve cover to check... hope the shop didn't mix up left and right, or that's going to be a PITA to fix. Passenger side does not have these. If the EZL is not receiving any intake cam position signal, it's likely going into a fixed operating mode which would cause reduced power, especially reduced mid-range torque.

 

[matzbats80]

Thanks, Dave! I've been long afraid the shop put the cams in wrong or something else internal after seeing the shotty work they did. This makes a lot of sense.

Would the lack of having a functional CPS also cause the loss of live readings for my cylinders? Perhaps it cannot calculate without the data?

Frankly, my MB Star has a hard time connecting to the car period. I usually have to pull the 38 pin plug and reinstall it over and over again until it connects. Sometimes fiddling with the battery cable corrects this but maybe only 50% of the time. Could it also be my MB Star as an issue? I do not know the correct hook-up procedure. i.e. what to plugin first, second and third.

I am using MB Star Diagnostic C3.

I do have another EZL and the second unit is in the car now. No real improvement. I do not have another Diagnostic Module. Seems like this is more challenging to find.

Not sure about the brand of the spark plug wires, the terriblele shop installed them. I am running a resistance test on them today to check and see that they are in line at/around 2100.

I wonder If I could uninstall the CPS, bump the engine to see if the blocks pass by?

If not it looks like I'm removing the valve cover next. I do have a new ignition module and coils coming so might as well replace those. The sticker for me is that the Camshaft position is persistent and when I pull the sensor off the car does not change behavior. I appreciate your advice let me see what I find out. :-(

 

[matzbats80]

I should also add I'm assuming the DM is the module with the fuses? I'm not sure that is correct.

 

[frall]

I should also add I'm assuming the DM is the module with the fuses? I'm not sure that is correct.

No, the Base Module ist the module with the fuses.
Perhaps your car doesn't haven a DM (diagnostic module). I think it is only in californian cars.

I think the communication problem with the SD (C3) ist caused by the multiplexer C3 and not the car. You can look inside the C3 for bad soldering especially at and around the 4 multiplexer chips (ADG426 or DG406).

 

[gsxr]

Early 1992 USA model years did not have a DM or CEL in the instrument cluster, and have a black emissions decal.

Later 1992 USA model years do have a DM and CEL in the instrument cluster, and have a yellow emissions decal.

The DM, if present, is located inside the car below the passenger footwell, near the alarm control module.

 

[TerryA]

I believe the Diagnostic Module is in all US E500E cars not just the CA cars.

lol

 

[gsxr]

I believe the Diagnostic Module is in all US E500E cars not just the CA cars.

This is correct - with the exception of early-production 1992 model years.

 

[matzbats80]

My car is an April 1992 car.

MB Star is reading a DM. I have to reinitiate contact with it multiple times before it answers. Does any have this part number handy? Mine must be going on the fritz.

Well, wish me luck. I'm taking the valve cover off tomorrow to see what's up. I will send an update. Thanks again, everyone!

 

[matzbats80]

I found the part number on the board.

 

[gsxr]

DM is p/n 015-545-13-32, your car may have a different part number, if so either p/n will work.

I'd be surprised if replacing the DM fixes the communication problem, but it's easy and cheap to try.

Remember that the DM is somewhat irrelevant. The sole function of the DM is to be a "watchdog" over data from all the other computer modules, and when it sniffs out a problem that can affect emissions, it does a Chicken Little "sky is falling!" warning by turning on the Check Engine Light. And, it has a built-in button & LED so you can check what code triggered the CEL, without separate tools or code readers.

All the important fault codes & data will be on the other modules. The DM data can sometimes be handy as it will log additional data snapshot at the time of fault, when chasing intermittent issues. But your problems are going to be related to the LH and EZL, assuming there's not a mechanical error (i.e., wrong cam sprocket, or incorrect cam timing).

Oh, and you have to remove the fan clutch to easily rotate the engine to 45° BTDC to check the cam timing...

 

[matzbats80]

Okay everyone, update. We removed the driverside valve cover and the pins are on the driverside for the camshaft sensor to read. Still, I get no reading for timing, injection, and a persisting camshaft sensor code. We are now thinking we need to see if the wire to the camshaft sensor is okay.

My harness is dated 4/1/2009. Still, I'm not sure what could be causing this error. Does anyone know what pin on the wire harness 36 pin plug is for the camshaft sensor? We want to read resistance from the sensor pigtail to the harness connector but can't seem to find what each of the 36 pins does.

I found this online but does not seem accurate when compared to my harness. Is there a better way of doing this. All my wires look great.

As always appreciate all your wisdom. Missing my car!

 

[matzbats80]

We do get a resistance reading of 20mv from pin 19 to the CPS pigtail.

 

[matzbats80]

We are getting reading on 19,22,33,34,and 35. This is with the positive hooked up to the end of the CPS pigtail. That seems strange?

 

[gsxr]

Have you confirmed the camshafts are timed correctly? That would be my first check. Rotate the crank to 45° BTDC and see if both cams will pin. If not, rotate the crank 1° at a time (44°, then 43°, 42, etc) until each will pin. If they are off a little (say, less than 10° at the crank) that shouldn't cause the fault codes (or lack of power) you are experiencing. But if it's 20° or more, it must be fixed. One tooth on the chain/sprocket is 20° at the crank.

FSM link:

https://freescruz.com/.priv/W124/w124CD1/Program/Engine/119/05-2230.pdf

 

[gsxr]

The cam position sensor coaxial cable goes to the EZL, not to the rectangle connector with flat pins. It has a coaxial connector behind the CAN box.

 

[gsxr]

Cam sensor goes to EZL connector B, pin #1, I think?

https://freescruz.com/.priv/W124/w124CD1/Program/Engine/LHIS/15-0020.pdf

 

[matzbats80]

Ah! I saw that behind! Thank you. I will check the cam timing next. Thanks again!

 

[matzbats80]

Have you confirmed the camshafts are timed correctly? That would be my first check. Rotate the crank to 45° BTDC and see if both cams will pin. If not, rotate the crank 1° at a time (44°, then 43°, 42, etc) until each will pin. If they are off a little (say, less than 10° at the crank) that shouldn't cause the fault codes (or lack of power) you are experiencing. But if it's 20° or more, it must be fixed. One tooth on the chain/sprocket is 20° at the crank.

FSM link:

https://freescruz.com/.priv/W124/w124CD1/Program/Engine/119/05-2230.pdf

View attachment 129274

Looks like I need to get some tools! Oh well, this will likely not be the only M119 engine I have. Thanks again for pointing me in the right direction. Here is hoping I can get this fixed.

 

[gsxr]

You can use a 6.5mm drill bit to check the cam timing... when the holes are aligned, it will slide in & out easily. Just make SURE to remove the pin before rotating the crank again. I find it very difficult to turn the crank in small increments (1° or less)... usually need a breaker bar with pipe extension, otherwise it tends to "jump" multiple degrees and then you have to rotate the crank 2 revolutions and start all over again.

Also, the crank must only be rotated in normal direction; standing in front of the car facing the engine, it rotates clockwise. Don't rotate it backwards.

 

[matzbats80]

You can use a 6.5mm drill bit to check the cam timing... when the holes are aligned, it will slide in & out easily. Just make SURE to remove the pin before rotating the crank again. I find it very difficult to turn the crank in small increments (1° or less)... usually need a breaker bar with pipe extension, otherwise it tends to "jump" multiple degrees and then you have to rotate the crank 2 revolutions and start all over again.

Also, the crank must only be rotated in normal direction; standing in front of the car facing the engine, it rotates clockwise. Don't rotate it backwards.

Perfect! Thank you. I have a breaker bar and I can find a pipe!

Have you confirmed the camshafts are timed correctly? That would be my first check. Rotate the crank to 45° BTDC and see if both cams will pin. If not, rotate the crank 1° at a time (44°, then 43°, 42, etc) until each will pin. If they are off a little (say, less than 10° at the crank) that shouldn't cause the fault codes (or lack of power) you are experiencing. But if it's 20° or more, it must be fixed. One tooth on the chain/sprocket is 20° at the crank.

FSM link:

https://freescruz.com/.priv/W124/w124CD1/Program/Engine/119/05-2230.pdf

View attachment 129274

If the cam is off of its correct timing, will I need to remove the chain tensioners and guides? Does this require breaking the engine down again and removing it? Hoping for a magic way to slack up the chain to allow me to correct the timing. I thought it worth asking. I know they removed the engine when we replaced the tensioners, guides, and chain last time. Sorry for my naivety; I'm just not sure what will be required to correct the cam timing?

I'm ordering the tools from the steps you sent me. Thank you for that. Really helpful! -Matt

 

[matzbats80]

You can use a 6.5mm drill bit to check the cam timing... when the holes are aligned, it will slide in & out easily. Just make SURE to remove the pin before rotating the crank again. I find it very difficult to turn the crank in small increments (1° or less)... usually need a breaker bar with pipe extension, otherwise it tends to "jump" multiple degrees and then you have to rotate the crank 2 revolutions and start all over again.

Also, the crank must only be rotated in normal direction; standing in front of the car facing the engine, it rotates clockwise. Don't rotate it backwards.

Sorry total newb here but when you say remove the pins you are referring to the cam pins used to check to the timing. There isn't another pin somewhere I need to remove? Overly cautious over here...

 

[gsxr]

If the cam is off of its correct timing, will I need to remove the chain tensioners and guides? Does this require breaking the engine down again and removing it? Hoping for a magic way to slack up the chain to allow me to correct the timing. I thought it worth asking. I know they removed the engine when we replaced the tensioners, guides, and chain last time. Sorry for my naivety; I'm just not sure what will be required to correct the cam timing?

Worry about that if you find the cams are way off spec... it's a pretty involved job and will require pinning all 4 cams, removing the tensioner, and removing the upper rails to let the chain move around enough to get things back in synch. Hopefully the shop did it correctly and this won't be an issue.

Sorry total newb here but when you say remove the pins you are referring to the cam pins used to check to the timing. There isn't another pin somewhere I need to remove? Overly cautious over here...

When a 6.5mm pin slides through the holes in the bearing cap AND into the hole on the sprocket, this "locks" that sprocket... turning the engine could (theoretically) break the pin, sprocket, or bearing cap. So you remove the 6.5mm pin from the sprocket before rotating the crank.


The video below shows where the pins slide into. They are using an M6 bolt which is adequate for a rough check. You won't normally get all 4 cams to pin perfectly at 45° as shown, unless (1) all guide rails are brand new, and possible (2) a new chain is installed as well. The FSM indicates that ~2° of stretch is normal after break-in.

 

[matzbats80]

Worry about that if you find the cams are way off spec... it's a pretty involved job and will require pinning all 4 cams, removing the tensioner, and removing the upper rails to let the chain move around enough to get things back in synch. Hopefully the shop did it correctly and this won't be an issue.



When a 6.5mm pin slides through the holes in the bearing cap AND into the hole on the sprocket, this "locks" that sprocket... turning the engine could (theoretically) break the pin, sprocket, or bearing cap. So you remove the 6.5mm pin from the sprocket before rotating the crank.


The video below shows where the pins slide into. They are using an M6 bolt which is adequate for a rough check. You won't normally get all 4 cams to pin perfectly at 45° as shown, unless (1) all guide rails are brand new, and possible (2) a new chain is installed as well. The FSM indicates that ~2° of stretch is normal after break-in.

Well, good news and not good news.

First photo is dead on 45 degrees. Neither cam will pin.
Second photo is where I had to turn the crank to get the right side (non-cps cam) to pin.
Third photo is the CPS cam and the degree at which it will not pin.

So both sides of the driver head are out of time and it looks significant if one tooth is 20 degrees.

I can't thank you guys enough. I'm feeling a mountain of relief. I am very OCD and I love these cars, so this has been killing me for the last 6 months. I can't thank you enough.

I will update you once the cams are properly timed. Keep your fingers crossed for me.

-Matt

 

[gsxr]

If I'm reading your post correctly... the exhaust cam is OK (43° is within normal tolerance).

But it does look like the intake cam, which is the critical one, may be off 1 tooth. You can keep turning the crank until the intake cam pins, and it may read somewhere around 25-23° on the balancer. If so, that confirms 1 tooth off.

And then you get to fix it! Which will be fun... have to remove passenger side valve cover also; and probably the air pump+bracket to access the tensioner. Assuming you are doing the work yourself, make sure to apply anaerobic sealant to the bracket bolts (if you remove it), otherwise it will leak oil. That's the orange goop on the bolts in the photo below. Remember to set the crank at 45° to start with and don't turn it while you mess with the cams & tensioner... and the cams will "jump" to the point of least resistance when the chain tension is released. Then you need to manually rotate each cam until they pin, etc etc...

 

[matzbats80]

If I'm reading your post correctly... the exhaust cam is OK (43° is within normal tolerance).

But it does look like the intake cam, which is the critical one, may be off 1 tooth. You can keep turning the crank until the intake cam pins, and it may read somewhere around 25-23° on the balancer. If so, that confirms 1 tooth off.

And then you get to fix it! Which will be fun... have to remove passenger side valve cover also; and probably the air pump+bracket to access the tensioner. Assuming you are doing the work yourself, make sure to apply anaerobic sealant to the bracket bolts (if you remove it), otherwise it will leak oil. That's the orange goop on the bolts in the photo below. Remember to set the crank at 45° to start with and don't turn it while you mess with the cams & tensioner... and the cams will "jump" to the point of least resistance when the chain tension is released. Then you need to manually rotate each cam until they pin, etc etc...


View attachment 129334

Yes, you are right. the intake cam appears to be one tooth off. The shop that goofed is paying to have Mercedes of Seattle take care of it. However, I had the car with them and they did not diagnose this as the issue. When I got the car back "fixed" and immediately realized it was not fixed. Then I decided I'd go through the car to look. That is when I reached out to the 500 E board. In one post you figured it out. I'm very grateful.

I'm taking it back to Mercedes to fix the timing. I work too much to do the full job. At least we have a solid reason for the poor operation. Again, thank you, Dave!

 

[Unavita]

And to add something of an obvious question: when the cam sensor is unplugged from the sensor on the valve cover... there should be a noticeable difference in the manner the engine runs, correct?

Adding this pic from above. This dohickey disconnected should cause a change. Is a proper reading for it in volts or milliamps? current or resistance?

 

[gsxr]

And to add something of an obvious question: when the cam sensor is unplugged from the sensor on the valve cover... there should be a noticeable difference in the manner the engine runs, correct?

Yes, if the cam sensor is not working properly, there is a significant loss in midrange torque as the camshaft advance won't engage. (IIRC...)

Adding this pic from above. This dohickey disconnected should cause a change. Is a proper reading for it in volts or milliamps? current or resistance?

That is the wire which plugs on to the cam sensor bolted the head. If you measure the wire, it would just show a reading from the computer module it connects to (LH/fuel module), which is no help. If the sensor was bad, it should trigger fault code #8 on pin #4 (LH module). The sensor itself could be measured for resistance, similar to the crank sensor which connects to the EZL.

Photo of the cam position sensor (CMP, L5/1) is below:

 

[Unavita]

Soooo....

Ifya disconnect it, gofor a spin and there's no noticeable difference... there's uno problemo!

 

[gsxr]

Soooo....

Ifya disconnect it, gofor a spin and there's no noticeable difference... there's uno problemo!

I would say YES. I've never done this on purpose, but I guess I should try it and see what happens!

 

[Unavita]

I would say YES. I've never done this on purpose, but I guess I should try it and see what happens!

I tried it under the conditions I've been experiencing (similar to the OP). There was NO difference. So I bought one and installed it today! Definitely a change with the new CPS! (Cam)

 

[gsxr]

Great! Did it solve the problem when the engine temp gets over 80C?

 

[Seangbadee]

I would say YES. I've never done this on purpose, but I guess I should try it and see what happens!

I just noticed while working on my car that my sensor is broken. I removed the plug and the whole sensor just came out. Now I wonder if this is responsible for the unexpected hard starting

 

[Unavita]

Great! Did it solve the problem when the engine temp gets over 80C?

I did think so but no! I am convinced that the engine is turning in to a bad air-fuel mixture. I can't be certain if lean or rich but I my educated guess is rich. This is what is causing the engine to run hot too. I have a pm into the person for the SDS. I have already communicated regarding the EHA. Once I've nailed that to be the problem it's off for a rebuild. In short- no.

Post edit:

I totally disconnected the EHA today and drove the car. The symptoms were slower to arise but did eventually come. So disconnecting the EHA made the A/F issue not arise as quickly. The engine, amazingly, ran cooler. I would think with the rich environment ( Im guessing) the EHA removal would create the engine would run hotter. Of course an engine that is to lean creates a lot of cylinder head heat as well IIRC.

 

[aliking]

Hello,
This problem happened with me, the crank & camshaft codes on star diagnosis keeps coming up although everything is ok in my car, a mechaninc here suggested to change the EZL with another good used unit, and that solved the problem.

 

[usarover]

I got this code on my 500E this week. Thank you for the posts now I know where to start!