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500Eboard Management
Bolt on performance exhaust for the 500e (testing waters)
- Thread starter 5thscaleracer
- Start date
see post #26.
Agreed, but if the OE cat is really a 1000cpsi unit as claimed that would mean a lot of back pressure, more than any normal gasoline engine would want for efficient operation so it isn't a stretch to think we could gain ~10hp+ by changing to a high quality 400 or 200 cpsi cat. Most good modern European OE cats are 600cpsi or less and some are as low as 400cpsi, while the motorsport cats are 200 and 100 cpsi.
I partly killed this theory by testing my car with straight pipes (catalyst delete) on the dyno & at the dragstrip. If there was any gain, it was low single digits, as there was nothing measurable on the dyno graph on timeslips. This is for a stock 5.0L engine btw. Maybe there are gains with a 6.0 but again, I've got dyno graphs of 6.0 motors with stock exhaust vs headers and high-flow cats and there was ~10hp total difference. Which is why I, for one, won't be shelling out for custom exhaust until there are dyno sheets per the procedure described in post 26 (specifically, exhaust change only, NOTHING else done).
Cadence, does this mean you decided to keep your car? Or did you buy another one? I thought you sold yours back in 2011...?
Back from the dead..
Just wanted to update you all
I have been finishing up my 16v header project and here is my dyno results.
View attachment 27673
My base line was with exhaust peak power was 148whp.
On average 16v cars were putting out 133-137whp. I was not able to get a true baseline because my 16v came with an exhaust with shotgun holes all over the place. So mine was with a performance unit installed.
But this is to give you an idea of the power extracted from a 16v running CIS still.
@4500rpm
~+15whp
~+20lbft
Now with that said.. I have been drawing and modeling the 500e motor with possible header designs. The truth is there is no solid way to make equal length headers. There simply isn't enough room to design an effective unit unless tangent ends are used.
It's been a nightmare of a project so now I am looking at log style manifolds.
While not equal length I might be able to use cone technology to balance exhaust speed to simulate equal length header.
This is still a work in progress..
Just to update my time line..
Rear exhaust section (bolt on). Aug/September 2014
Downpipe/cat portion oct/nov 2014
Header 2015???
These speculated dates might change as other projects get moved up/pushed back but something will eventually be created.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Just wanted to update you all
I have been finishing up my 16v header project and here is my dyno results.
View attachment 27673
My base line was with exhaust peak power was 148whp.
On average 16v cars were putting out 133-137whp. I was not able to get a true baseline because my 16v came with an exhaust with shotgun holes all over the place. So mine was with a performance unit installed.
But this is to give you an idea of the power extracted from a 16v running CIS still.
@4500rpm
~+15whp
~+20lbft
Now with that said.. I have been drawing and modeling the 500e motor with possible header designs. The truth is there is no solid way to make equal length headers. There simply isn't enough room to design an effective unit unless tangent ends are used.
It's been a nightmare of a project so now I am looking at log style manifolds.
While not equal length I might be able to use cone technology to balance exhaust speed to simulate equal length header.
This is still a work in progress..
Just to update my time line..
Rear exhaust section (bolt on). Aug/September 2014
Downpipe/cat portion oct/nov 2014
Header 2015???
These speculated dates might change as other projects get moved up/pushed back but something will eventually be created.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I'd be curious for some pics on the intake-
How did you expand the plenum? Are the intake tubes shorter, bigger diameter etc? I thought change the plenum to be more like the newer models- relocate the airfilter(s) and raise the runner higher- big plenum in the middle. Move the throttle to the front of the motor.
Michael
How did you expand the plenum? Are the intake tubes shorter, bigger diameter etc? I thought change the plenum to be more like the newer models- relocate the airfilter(s) and raise the runner higher- big plenum in the middle. Move the throttle to the front of the motor.
Michael
Are you asking me? Or was this directed to someone else.
I am not touching the intake side of the 500e my goal is to simply create a bolt on performance exhaust option possibly a header back unit for the motor.
My previous post was to show the type of gains that was achieved with my 16v project.
My next project is the 500e.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Back from the dead...
Headers... The 500E can be produced, power gains are still up in the air but the biggest issue is COST! estimated price is $2800-3000 for the pair,
One can be made for testing purposes only but the realistic question is are you guys really serious in spending that amount of money for headers?
You guys can let me know later on the header but for now the Exhaust is priority.
Exhaust is scheduled for Mock up in late July and hope to have a working model by September of 2014, first production run to be 10/2014 and second to follow in 2015.
Exhaust will be offered in two configurations.
Track pack (removes the cats)
Cat Back (bolts after OE cat)
Estimated price for Cat Back exhaust will be $1500-1600
Estimated price for the Track Pack (Forward pipes only from Manifold to the Cat Back Exhaust) $1200.00
Estimated price for the complete kit $2800.00
Tip configuration will be OE turndown look and Brabus slash cut 45* angle pipes 90mm dual round.
stay tuned...
Headers... The 500E can be produced, power gains are still up in the air but the biggest issue is COST! estimated price is $2800-3000 for the pair,
One can be made for testing purposes only but the realistic question is are you guys really serious in spending that amount of money for headers?
You guys can let me know later on the header but for now the Exhaust is priority.
Exhaust is scheduled for Mock up in late July and hope to have a working model by September of 2014, first production run to be 10/2014 and second to follow in 2015.
Exhaust will be offered in two configurations.
Track pack (removes the cats)
Cat Back (bolts after OE cat)
Estimated price for Cat Back exhaust will be $1500-1600
Estimated price for the Track Pack (Forward pipes only from Manifold to the Cat Back Exhaust) $1200.00
Estimated price for the complete kit $2800.00
Tip configuration will be OE turndown look and Brabus slash cut 45* angle pipes 90mm dual round.
stay tuned...
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That's how they came from the factory. Except they weren't all nice and pretty like Captruff's.
One time I was at the ML plant in what we call LA (lower Alabama), even though it really isn't that low on the map. There was a body being lowered over the frame / drivetrain assembly of a 163 ML. I think it was a ML220 or 230 on the badge. I was told it was for export to Italy. It had what looked to be an M111 4 cylinder. I couldn't see if there were any cats on the exhaust due to the viewing angle and distance, but damn if it didn't have a beautiful equal length exhaust manifold. From the distance, it looked just like the headers on the 16V. May have even been tubes. There were no cameras on us, of course...
You are correct... it did come with headers but i was able to improve them with a revised design.
Stock MB header vs. Improved header
The 500e test mule is getting the wavetrac diff install then exhaust mock up begins..
Everything got delayed on the 500e parts development.
But still on my must get done list before 2014 is over.
Everything got delayed on the 500e parts development.
But still on my must get done list before 2014 is over.
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In general internet theory is that for bigger engines plenum should be 0.8...1.25 x engine displacement. So for minimum M119 should have ~4l plenum, well it is not, not even near. I just measure M119.960 plenum and its volume is about 1.8l !. I have plans already to build custom bottom part to intake manfold with bigger throttle body and ~6l plenum, that fits easily under original top part, at least in .960., will send pictures when ready.
Alright bring this back on top...
We are finalizing fixtures...
Being that the 500E guys is such a limited community i don't expect to make more than 15-20 units.
That being said...
Whats being made is a CBE option (Cat-Back exhaust) allot of the guys still want their car to be Smog compliant but want to replace the rusty old rear box with something that fits correctly.
So the question is....
-Turndown Tip
of
-Tips that stick out the back?
Tips that will stick out of the back will be dual round 90MM thin wall stainless that has been polished angle cut
Later down the road a Y-Pipe/Test pipe option will be offered for the 500E for the "Go Fast" guys. but realistically the 500E is not a 190E hotrod... it's a wolf in sheeps clothing.
Personally i am leaning towards turn down but with the advantage of gaining some Power/Sound.
Please share your thoughts we are fitting the car today and i just need a general consensus of what would appeal to the masses.
We are finalizing fixtures...
Being that the 500E guys is such a limited community i don't expect to make more than 15-20 units.
That being said...
Whats being made is a CBE option (Cat-Back exhaust) allot of the guys still want their car to be Smog compliant but want to replace the rusty old rear box with something that fits correctly.
So the question is....
-Turndown Tip
of
-Tips that stick out the back?
Tips that will stick out of the back will be dual round 90MM thin wall stainless that has been polished angle cut
Later down the road a Y-Pipe/Test pipe option will be offered for the 500E for the "Go Fast" guys. but realistically the 500E is not a 190E hotrod... it's a wolf in sheeps clothing.
Personally i am leaning towards turn down but with the advantage of gaining some Power/Sound.
Please share your thoughts we are fitting the car today and i just need a general consensus of what would appeal to the masses.
While I love the look of the straight tips, I don't think I could bring myself to cut the bumper. So turndown tip for me!
Both can be accommodated the problem is cost, two fixtures will need to be made.
You have to keep in mind...
If we produce a tipped option the muffler will have to hang low like a Remus. So there is a chance the tip will rub on driveways. Not to mention you will clearly see the exhaust can since it's a nice shiny muffler.
You have to keep in mind...
If we produce a tipped option the muffler will have to hang low like a Remus. So there is a chance the tip will rub on driveways. Not to mention you will clearly see the exhaust can since it's a nice shiny muffler.
Maui
The only way to do what you request is to build a turndown style can tucked up then have 2 pipes basically bend down and out of the rear valance... To me it will look ghetto rigged.
The proper way is to hang the muffler low and have the tips exit with no additional bends.
The only way to do what you request is to build a turndown style can tucked up then have 2 pipes basically bend down and out of the rear valance... To me it will look ghetto rigged.
The proper way is to hang the muffler low and have the tips exit with no additional bends.
Like so !
Gerry , I remember you mentioning that you really fancy this rear box fitted in Bernard's 6L .
And perhaps sounds like this : http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Qq7BpRfoMMo
That's still open for discussion but I am scared of producing a kit that will cost 1300-1800 and I get stuck with 10 kits.
The 190e group is bigger and "hot rod" oriented. But the 500e guys is a lot smaller.
So anything can be made but cost is always the issue.
This cat back exhaust target price is less than $1000.00
Btw cats? Are you talking race cats or smog legal CA cats?
Quality cats are $$$$. Ca legal heavy metal units are $450 to 550 each and two is required.
Spun race cats are cheaper about 125-200 each.
As im not living in CA im interested in race cats.
I know of one more here i Norway that is not on this forum that will be interested in a complete set with cats.
That im keeping updated on this.
So where you have two set's gone
Ok well let me finish the cat back exhaust then work on the front section.
+1 on this idea along with a lighter exhaust can. Is titanium too expensive for any to consider?
drew
This is what I have currently in my SL, primaries are 2.5" and enpipe 3"
see pictures:
http://www.benzworld.org/forums/r129-sl-class/1896249-thoughts-custom-exhaust.html#post9293538
see pictures:
http://www.benzworld.org/forums/r129-sl-class/1896249-thoughts-custom-exhaust.html#post9293538
By Default this exhaust will be lighter than the stock exhaust.
As for Ti it's a very finicky material to weld, bend and stretch into shape, cost of quality Ti material is 3X the price of S321... even Inconel is cheaper.
weight savings from Stainless to Ti is not that significant Also the expansion rate of Ti vs SS304/SS321/SS409 is different so if i were to use a Ti cat back bolting onto the Stock Cat.. Chances are the Ti will crack since the cat will expand at a higher rate than Ti. If you really want a Ti kit you need to do a full Ti exhaust and V-band at the manifold. The V-bad will actually expand and leak out a little but at least the Ti won't be stretched to a point that it cracks.
Not to be a dick but you just created a huge restriction going form 2.5" to 3" I have to admit the build quality is BEAUTIFUL! but you have a high speed section, slow speed section and a super high speed section in your exhaust.
Ideal for the 500E would be 2.25" primaries and 3" rear section... it will cause a slight restriction but that can be addressed with a well formed X pipe. X pipe should have a 15-20* taper to build velocity with a 2.25" dual entrance, the center section should be a 3" with a dual 2.25" exit at a 10-15* taper for smooth flow.
Looks like that shop used U bends and made what he could which is very nice!
Ideally the X pipe should be this smooth BTW this part sells for about $380.00
www.burstainless.com <by far supplies the best X pipes or convergence pipes but it's $$$$
Like this?
To me it looks ghetto... it's a turndown style muffler with some 5" tip extensions welded on. I would rather hang the muffler low enough and have the tips shoot directly out. It's cleaner and less exhaust flow turbulence. Refer to the 16V rear muffler cans pictured below.
Sorry to say but it won't work with your bumper the 500E I am using does not have a cut out like the one pictured. We are basing the exhaust fitment off of a stock 500E rear bumper.
the other option is i can build the exhaust minus the tips... there will be 2" long stubs welded off the muffler body and you guys can get your local muffler shop to install tips? Just make sure who ever is welding the tips use SS309 or SS321 as a fill rod when welding.
That option I can offer if any of you are interested
So far I am looking at a MEC muffler style tip but the tips will be larger because they have to reflect the internal construction of the muffler.
Just to give you guys examples of the quality of what can be produced here are some examples of my other projects.
16V rear mufflers
Header back kit $1300.00
This part is $360.00
16V DP
M104 DP
$360
16V Header and DP
$1855.00
CLA Exhaust 3" $1400.00
Mini Cooper R60 JCW 3" axle back $850.00
That looks great! 
And very important points about choice of materials, welding, expansion and cracking issues.
I would like to get a custom exhaust for my SuperMerc, but since it is supercharged I'm not sure I should sign up on this. Just for reference regarding the muffler & tip appearance, I've enclosed some pics of the MAE exhaust muffler on my SuperMerc.
-a-
And very important points about choice of materials, welding, expansion and cracking issues.
I would like to get a custom exhaust for my SuperMerc, but since it is supercharged I'm not sure I should sign up on this. Just for reference regarding the muffler & tip appearance, I've enclosed some pics of the MAE exhaust muffler on my SuperMerc.
-a-
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Proof that great minds think alike. Dave, go back and read our PMs on this topic. Those are the exact same dimensions I told you I want for my system!
Regards,
Eric
Arnt,
Improved exhaust flow will have a beneficial effect on a supercharged engine.
Jim
Supercharge?That looks great!
And very important points about choice of materials, welding, expansion and cracking issues.
I would like to get a custom exhaust for my SuperMerc, but since it is supercharged I'm not sure I should sign up on this. Just for reference regarding the muffler & tip appearance, I've enclosed some pics of the MAE exhaust muffler on my SuperMerc.
-a-
The exhaust that's being built can support a supercharger lol..
Pm me details curious to see how a supercharger was shoved in the engine bay
You don't see the stock exhaust, hence it looks perfect! Remember this car was still not designed of, by, and for the Ritalin generation... Then again Ken, with your excellent taste, I'm sure I will like whatever solution you adopt just fine...
I may be part of the "Ritalin generation", but I also prefer an unseen exhaust. Sure, I hate the rusty old tips and pipes as much as the next guy, and I'd love to see a nice clean setup when the car is on a lift, but not when the on the ground. Turned down tips please
You give me hope for the future, Justin!
2.25" for 5.0l, how about 6.0l?
6L V8 2.25" to 3" will still support the power. Even though it's 1L bigger displacement you need to calculate how much air volume is moving in and out at a given RPM and temp.
The issue is if you go too big of a pipe all you get is deep tone and no torque with minimal hp gains up top.
If the pipe is too small you get a mid tone alot of velocity giving nice mid range but a drop in rpm.
there is still an art in exhaust design but with newer cars most exhausts are free flowing and there is probably a 10% improvement factor. On older cars before 2005 there is a good 20-30% improvement factor on exhausts.
You have to also take the muffler into account, alot of companies boast "Hi-Flow", "straight through", "low restriction". In a perfect world of more flow = more power is true to a point. Universal mufflers are what they are universally offering one thing.. More Flow.
Mufflers should be used for two things...
1. Controlling exhaust velocity
2. controlling sound
A muffler can be used to speed up or slow down exhaust gasses by playing with hi/low pressure chambers. This is a whole different discussion on it's own and really not worth discussing unless you plan on building a muffler can from scratch.
But for a 6L a good setup would be 2.25" per bank X pipe it with a 3" mid section exiting to dual 2.25" entering mufflers. So basically you are utilizing dual 2.25" from the manifold to the tail pipe which flows roughly like a 3.75" or 4" pipe.
If you do a dual 2.5" pipe then to a 3" you deal with the low speed/high speed section again which affects mid range torque delivery.
But realistically 5.0L and 6.0L 2.25" to a 3" vs 2.25" all the way back i would speculate 3-5% horsepower difference (positive direction) about 5% torque difference (negative direction)
Hey my company car is a Camry all i do is turn the key and it keeps going...
But yes stock exhaust is not something to brag about. But big chunky tips looks odd to me..
i will revisit the tip option again once we get something fitted and check numbers.
BTW anyone have a STOCK 500E Dyno plots... the car i am working with has a Golf ball hole in several sections of the muffler. So if i were to dyno this car the way it is with all the holes it would not properly represent the before and after gains.
Then again Ken, with your excellent taste, I'm sure I will like whatever solution you adopt just fine...
Then I am sure you love my side pipe idea or maybe we could just bring the headers straight up through the hood?
Lol I vote for the hood tips
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