* Let's have a test and tune day in So. Cal.

[szvook]

That only proves that you need to ditch your headlight panels as the stock tubes aren't getting enough air with them in place. Steve, you've got to remember that I'm telling you this stuff because I want to see you do well! Why do you resist?

Nooo...must resist the dark side.

I just don't think the panels are holding me back as much as honing my skillzzz with the car while at the track. My times are still within the claimed times the W124.036 chassis was recorded at and at the lower spectrum to be exact. That includes present owners here whom tracked their car (while being under normal/standard weight) with stock hoses, or at least with non-perforated hoses which I currently run. Plus like Dave said, the panels provide the underneath support for headlights and I'm not messing with my current headlights...maybe if they were still stock.

I do appreciate your guidance, so don't get me wrong...not that you should.

But like I said, go ahead and don't listen to the guy who's 2.24 geared 4.2 is as quick as your 2.82 geared 5.0 is. This will buy me more time till I can get B3 back to the track! Muhahahaha ;-)

MHOTY, no doubt there...but the shite ain't the same when we are lined up, u feel me Home Skillet? I do hope you can get the B√3 ready for September 3rd.

I need to go and buy my "incentive" helmet anyway...just in case. Sub 14's or die trying.

 

[400Eric]

I'm also kinda on a Benzer1 kick right now. If you do the math, using the old accepted 10 horsepower is equal to a tenth of a second formula, Benzer1, with his about 100 fewer horsepower than Benzer3, should be running uncorrected mid-15s, and I'm pretty determined to get them. Benzer1 also has the added advantage of being 500 pounds lighter AND has much lower gearing to boot than Benzer3 does. Yes, the torque output is also about a hundred less but it is proportionate to the horsepower output in the same way Benzer3's is. So, I want to see some mid-15s!
Regards, Eric

Dave, I'm re-posting the above because I'm wondering what your thoughts are on this. You are the only one around here with some experience with these cars. What do you think about it? Do you agree with my math?
Regards, Eric

 

[gsxr]

Eric, I only had my 86 300E up at the track, for an M103-powered car. It consistently ran around 17.0 @ 83mph at 2700', give or take a couple tenths. At sea level it would probably do mid-16's, low 16's at best (maybe). You are at least a half-second quicker already, adjusting for the elevation difference.

It's just too hard to compare cars with different engines, power curves, weight, gearing, etc. I'm impressed you got B1 into the 15's at all. I'd be thrilled with that. If you want it faster, go forced induction, or NOS. Trying to get another few tenths out of the 300E just isn't worth the effort, IMO. It's still a 300E, no matter how emotionally attached you are to it. Why not go back to tweaking the 400? I only ran the 300E to see what it would do... never had any interest in trying to make it fast. Zero ROI.

For the record, I was very much not impressed by the 300E/M103 combination, and would never be interested in owning one again - especially since the 400E/E420 is priced similarly now, AND has the same (or better!) fuel economy, with a much nicer interior, far more power, better AC, etc, etc. Take some photos of your 300's for posterity and dump them. Seriously. (No offense!)

 

[400Eric]

It's just too hard to compare cars with different engines, power curves, weight, gearing, etc. I'm impressed you got B1 into the 15's at all. I'd be thrilled with that.

Don't get me wrong, I am! Like I said earlier in this thread, I was more thrilled to get those 3 15s out of B1 than I was to get that 14.3 out of B3! It's just that, when you do the math, I think B1 should be capable of uncorrected mid-15s.

Why not go back to tweaking the 400?

I will, but I've been discouraged lately because it seems that we have really hit a wall, performance wise. It shouldn't come as any surprise though, and I have no right to complain since B3 has already exceeded my original publicly stated goal of uncorrected 14.7s by almost a half second!

For the record, I was very much not impressed by the 300E/M103 combination, and would never be interested in owning one again - especially since the 400E/E420 is priced similarly now, AND has the same (or better!) fuel economy, with a much nicer interior, far more power, better AC, etc, etc. Take some photos of your 300's for posterity and dump them. Seriously. (No offense!)

I agree with all of that except that I've found that I get better fuel economy out of the 2 3.0s in pure city driving while I get better fuel economy out of B3 on the highway. (God bless those 2.24 gears!)
You also left out the reliability factor. In my own personal experience, B1 and B2 have been light years more reliable than B3 has been despite having 100,000 more miles!
And you forgot! I DID take several photos and I DID run several ads on several different sites. No takers. If somebody, anybody, had only come over and offered me a thousand dollars for either one I would have taken it. Benz folks don't want them cause they feel, like you do, that there are better Benzes out there to be had. Non-Benz folks don't want them because of the usual misconceptions about Benz ownership like parts costs and other such non-sense. (Hey you want to talk about expensive parts? Try pricing Toyota and Honda parts!) Anyways, if nobody wants to give me a measly thousand dollars for the most reliable cars that I have ever owned, F em! F all of them! I'll keep the cars before I'll give them away! I'll get a thousand dollars worth of use out of them! Then maybe I'll give them to my kids or make Lemons racers out of them!

As for posterity, I already have that. Those precious, priceless videos of B1 repeatedly thoroughly spanking the Sauceman's Bimmer!
Regards, Eric

 

[gerryvz]

Those precious, priceless videos of B1 repeatedly thoroughly spanking the Sauceman's Bimmer!

 

[szvook]

This first timer will be spanking all of you - volvos and everything.

Bring it....

 

[400Eric]

Just caught a long term forecast that says 88 a week from Saturday. If that holds true, I wanna go. Who's with me?
Regards, Eric

 

[400Eric]

Well, I just caught another long term forecast that says 95. Our Dallas is MIA again so I'm having to rely on 2nd rate weather forecasters. If it's gonna be 95 I'm gonna have to think about it some more before I decide about going.
Regards, Eric

 

[gsxr]

Pffffft. Fair-weather racers! My wife & I were racing last weekend in 97°F ambients. NINETY SEVEN. Time to man up, guys... I mean if a girl can take the heat...

 

[gerryvz]

I think I just peed my pants from laughing so hard.....

 

[400Eric]

I know you are directing that comment to all of the pussies who NEVER show up!

Maybe we should get Uncle Gerry some Depends.

I go racing more than anybody else here on this site except for Dave. There are SO MANY 036s here in So Cal who's owners don't even have the stones to weigh in on this thread, much less show up at a drag day.

You've got to remember Dave, I'm just trying to better my best E/Ts, and sometimes get some cool videos for you all. I'm not there to chase season points. It's not very likely I'll achieve better E/Ts in hot weather. But, again, I'll go if someone else is going.
Regards, Eric

 

[400Eric]

Dallas' underling, Danny Romero, is calling for 90 on race day. Who's in?
Regards, Eric

 

[szvook]

Pffffft. Fair-weather racers! My wife & I were racing last weekend in 97°F ambients. NINETY SEVEN. Time to man up, guys... I mean if a girl can take the heat...

HA! So were your ET's lower or higher in the 97°F temperature.

 

[szvook]

Dallas' underling, Danny Romero, is calling for 90 on race day. Who's in?
Regards, Eric

I'm officially out till September 3rd.

 

[400Eric]

Most all of the forecasters are saying that our current below normal temps will hold through Friday, then on Saturday they will shoot way up to 95. Perfect. Not!

Those people are all idiots though. My wife tells me that the reason Dallas has been missing so much is because he is having health issues. She says they said something about it on the news. So we've been having to rely on the idiots.

We sat out the last date because they all said it was going to be bunk ass hot. Then the high was only 88, well below normal for this time of year in this knappy area.

Dallas was on tonight and he is saying 90 for Saturday which isn't too bad considering that the night temps will be pretty decent.

So I'm thinking we should go because we have only one night racing date left after this one and that one (Sept 3) could very well be seriously bunk ass hot, and yes, even seriously bunk ass humid too. It's a very real possibility. We get days here sometimes this time of year that are just as miserable as what Texas is seeing right now. But we at least usually don't have to endure it for as long as they've been. (More than 30 straight days! I spent 4 years in that part of the country, it was enough for me to last a lifetime! Uncle Gerry, why can't you transfer back to the Northwest? Don't you want to? I'd take a pay cut if I had to!)

Anyways, We need to do this! I don't want to go by myself! (This is where Dave weighs in and says: "Aw come-on, man-up! I've gone racing even when there was no one to race! Why, last Summer, I went on a day when there was only a local Road Runner bird to race!")
Regards, Eric

 

[gsxr]

Anyways, We need to do this! I don't want to go by myself! (This is where Dave weighs in and says: "Aw come-on, man-up! I've gone racing even when there was no one to race! Why, last Summer, I went on a day when there was only a local Road Runner bird to race!")

YEAH! And I kicked his feathery rear end, too!! (meep! meep!)

 

[gerryvz]

This song came up on my playlist tonight as I was pulling my E500 into the driveway ... made me think of 409Eric:

[youtube]_17HGrGovrQ[/youtube]

Cheers,
Gerry

 

[400Eric]

Sorry, never was a 409 man. I was 440Eric, then I was 401Eric (AMC 401, not Buick 401), before I was 400Eric. Chevys are knappy!

It is really funny though that you would post that. Only 2 hours ago, I was explaining to my wife who "The Little Old Lady From Pasadena" was and about how there was even a song about her. She was a Mopar person too!
Regards, Eric

 

[gerryvz]

It was the "Gotta be cool now, powershift here we go" line that made me think of you ;-)

 

[szvook]

My plans changed so there is a chance I might go after all. Should know tomorrow. The weather looks hot for this Saturday, 94F or so.

 

[400Eric]

As of 11:00 PM tonight, Dallas is still sticking with 90.

90 or 94, it doesn't really matter though as long as we aren't in a Monsoonal weather pattern (which we won't be) like we were in last September which was why it was so humid and hot well into the night. This weather pattern we are in now will provide us with a nice, cool late afternoon and evening.

We should line you up with that guy who was threatening to kick everybody's asses. Where is he now anyways? I thought he was coming too?

Dave, you never answered Steve's question. What were your E/Ts in that 97 degree weather?
Regards, Eric

 

[gerryvz]

Dave, you never answered Steve's question. What were your E/Ts in that 97 degree weather?

Seeing as his car is unfazed by high ambient temps, I'm sure his E/Ts in the hottest weather were among his best-ever. The results for the rest of us, whose M119s don't prefer hot ambient & engine-bay temps to colder temps, are accordingly lower

 

[gsxr]

Dave, you never answered Steve's question. What were your E/Ts in that 97 degree weather?

My car varied from 14.55-14.65 and 96-97mph that night, uncorrected. In the peak heat (97F, 5pm) it ran 14.598 @ 96.14 into a slight headwind. The DA was >6000ft. This corrects to 13.7 @ 102, which I know is pure, weapons-grade baloneyum.

Setup: 92 motor & LH module, 3/4 tank of fuel, 2.65 LSD diff, heavy wheels/tires (18", 255f/285r), spare tire/etc in trunk. With stock wheels/tires, less fuel, no spare tire, and no headwind it would drop a solid 3 tenths.

I've run essentialy the same configuration at sea level in cool weather and it does right around 14.0-14.1 @ 99mph, not 13.7 @ 102... need to dump weight & run lightweight wheels/tires to get those numbers (which I did years ago). This is why I don't put much faith in the correction calculators.


For the record: One week earlier, in cool 75F ambients and even cooler engine temps, with the SAME vehicle configuration, it ran 14.50-14.61 @ 96-97 mph. A whopping 5 hundredths quicker with basically no change in trap speed, despite ambients about 20F cooler and engine temps in the 60-65C range (vs 70-75C). The barometric pressure was ~0.05 higher on the cooler day, which is more likely to be reason for the improved times. Slowest run of the night was in 69F ambients but with a hot engine (no cool down time before the finals).

No smoking gun here, guys... yes you may slow down a bit in the heat, but you're not gonna be watching Priuses smoke your 500. You can make up 0.05 at the tree!

 

[szvook]

Mid 14’s you say, then I’m not feeling too bad about my low 14’s @ 98+mph.

Ok, I’m going this Saturday, need to blow off some steam.

Eric, who else is coming? If the Swedes are gonna show up I’ll bring more drinks, but if it’s just you and I, I’ll bring less. Can you grab your cooler and get the ice again? So, which car are you going with?

 

[gsxr]

Mid 14’s you say, then I’m not feeling too bad about my low 14’s @ 98+mph.

Bingo. Remember that I'm at 2700' elevation, and I think your track is ~1500' or so. And, I have taller gears (2.65) vs your 2.82... the 2.65's are 0.10-0.15 slower than the 2.82's, but help provide a spin-free launch.

So, your car should be running around 14.2-14.3 uncorrected at AutoClub Raceway, assuming no wheelspin at launch. The higher elevation in Boise & taller gears in my E500 are the primary reason my car is a bit slower. Your car would run closer to 14.1 at sea level. As a very rough guide you'll pick up 1 tenth of a second for each 1000' drop in elevation.

 

[szvook]

Bingo. Remember that I'm at 2700' elevation, and I think your track is ~1500' or so. And, I have taller gears (2.65) vs your 2.82... the 2.65's are 0.10-0.15 slower than the 2.82's, but help provide a spin-free launch.

So, your car should be running around 14.2-14.3 uncorrected at AutoClub Raceway, assuming no wheelspin at launch. The higher elevation in Boise & taller gears in my E500 are the primary reason my car is a bit slower. Your car would run closer to 14.1 at sea level. As a very rough guide you'll pick up 1 tenth of a second for each 1000' drop in elevation.

Makes sense. Before this Saturday, we’ll look into the ECU’s updated range for elevation. After the ECU remap, I recall we went with a narrower elevation rage based on my current geographical location in L.A., which we might need to expand to account for the 1500 foot rise in Fontana.

 

[gsxr]

Makes sense. Before this Saturday, we’ll look into the ECU’s updated range for elevation. After the ECU remap, I recall we went with a narrower elevation rage based on my current geographical location in L.A., which we might need to expand to account for the 1500 foot rise in Fontana.

The ECU can't do much compensation for elevation... the elevation & atmospheric pressure dictates how much air/oxygen is available to stuff into the engine. As elevation goes up, air/oxygen goes down - simple as that. The ECU can't add more air, all it can do is tweak the fuel delivery.

You either need lower elevation, forced induction (turbo or supercharger), or NOS... all of which put more oxygen into the engine, then the ECU can provide more fuel and voila! More power.

 

[jano]

Does elevation have any affect on forced induction and/or NOS?

 

[gerryvz]

Does elevation have any affect on forced induction and/or NOS?

On forced induction, yes because you are compressing/inducing more air that contains the amount of oxygen that particular altitude has.

For dinitrogen oxide (aka nitrous oxide) injection, no, because the "oxygen" (actually one atom of oxygen attached to two atoms of nitrogen) is coming out of a bottle, so there's no additional atmospheric/ambient input outside of the regular air that the engine is running off of. And the ECU is being stimulated to provide extra fuel to go with the N2O.

Cheers,
Gerry

P.S. Not that I give a shit, but dinitrogen oxide is considered to be a greenhouse gas, whatever that means.....

 

[gsxr]

Does elevation have any affect on forced induction and/or NOS?

Yes, but to a much smaller extent. On a turbo engine, higher elevation means less power until boost builds. The same applies to supercharged engines if they are not making boost at idle, but the effect is reduced as there is less lag with superchargers. Both can run into power loss at extremely high elevations, where the air is so thin that there isn't enough air to feed the turbo or blower. The vast majority of people would never be operating a vehicle at those heights (probably >10k ft). NOS is a little different story, but the same principle applies - the power loss at higher elevations should be less than normally aspirated.

Some interesting reading on power output (related to dyno testing) is at this link, it has some relevant info...

 

[gsxr]

For dinitrogen oxide (aka nitrous oxide) injection, no, because the "oxygen" (actually one atom of oxygen attached to two atoms of nitrogen) is coming out of a bottle, so there's no additional atmospheric/ambient input outside of the regular air that the engine is running off of. And the ECU is being stimulated to provide extra fuel to go with the N2O.

Sort of. A normally aspirated engine with NOS gets oxygen from two sources: a bottle in the trunk, and the atmosphere. As you go up in elevation, the bottle oxygen supply should remain constant; however the atmospheric oxygen supply will decrease, resulting in less total oxygen available to the motor, and therefore reduced max power output. But since it's being supplemented by a fixed supply via the bottle, the reduction should be less than a plain normally-aspirated engine would see at the same increase in elevation.

 

[szvook]

The ECU can't do much compensation for elevation...

Generally yes, but my current set up is different than most (if not all) ECU's and the new program has a way to receive a predetermined range for elevations at will, as well as choosing the countries to program the ECU further. My ECU can now be programed to think it's in Germany or Middle East or South America or Asia, etc, which taps into the optional preset power curves the program comes with - a part of it comes from tapping into the Transient fueling, based on the elevation grid(s) and the A/F ranges. Then, there are elevation grids that list elevation ranges which can be manually adjusted even further. The only obstacle we have is that the software is all in German so it takes a bit of time to translate everything correctly. There are also optional menus to update the ECU code once free flowing cat’s are installed and once I get my OEM cat’s replaced, the ECU will be remapped again.

 

[gerryvz]

Sort of. A normally aspirated engine with NOS gets oxygen from two sources: a bottle in the trunk, and the atmosphere. As you go up in elevation, the bottle oxygen supply should remain constant; however the atmospheric oxygen supply will decrease, resulting in less total oxygen available to the motor, and therefore reduced max power output. But since it's being supplemented by a fixed supply via the bottle, the reduction should be less than a plain normally-aspirated engine would see at the same increase in elevation.

That's EXACTLY what I said -- notice the phrase in my NOS reply that says "so there's no additional atmospheric/ambient input outside of the regular air that the engine is running off of."

Which by deduction states/assumes that the normal atmospheric/ambient laws apply to inducted atmospheric (non-nitrous) air.

Cheers,
Gerry

 

[gsxr]

Jano: "Does elevation have any affect on ... NOS?"

GVZ: "...no, because the "oxygen" is coming out of a bottle, so there's no additional atmospheric/ambient input outside of the regular air that the engine is running off of."

Your statement of "no" is the confusing part. Elevation DOES ("yes") have an effect on power developed with NOS (or without NOS), on a normally aspirated engine. The rest of your statement is correct though.

 

[gerryvz]

It's good to be corrected, thanks !!

 

[400Eric]

You guys are all missing the bigger, more pressing question: Is Jano going to be joining us this week-end?

Steve, I'm still working on the answers to your questions. I'll update shortly.
Regards, Eric

 

[szvook]

Is Jano going to be joining us this week-end?

I think he was planing to attend the September 3rd. date.

Steve, I'm still working on the answers to your questions. I'll update shortly.

OK.

 

[400Eric]

Well, he needs to plan on attending this weekend too cause the September date may be bunk ass hot! Did you guys know that, statistically speaking, September is our hottest month of the year? So Jano should join us this weekend as he may find himself having to go racing with Dave if it's too hot here come September.
Regards, Eric

 

[J-Sauce]

Still on vacation, so I'm out. However, I did have quite a good laugh when I saw what one of you admins put in my sig. Have fun guys!

 

[jano]

I cannot make this weekend. A little heat doesn't scare me.. I make heat. Oh yeah baby. I'm going to do my best to make September 3, but I don't know whether I'll have the redlining issue resolved; I don't want to track my e500.

However, I'm very pleased to announce, the racing stripes have been completed.

 

[400Eric]

If you aren't gonna run your 036, what exactly are you gonna run? In other words, do I need to bring Benzer1 or Benzer3?

 

[400Eric]

Ok, I’m going this Saturday, need to blow off some steam.

Eric, who else is coming? If the Swedes are gonna show up I’ll bring more drinks, but if it’s just you and I, I’ll bring less. Can you grab your cooler and get the ice again? So, which car are you going with?

OK, here are your answers:

No Swedes this time, unfortunately. I did try.

Already have new ice, please remind me again tomorrow night about the cooler.

I was close to surprising everyone with the return of Benzer3, but it's looking less likely now. My neighbor was gonna hook me up with "a friend of a friend" who is supposedly gonna cut me a killer deal on the glass replacement job but he still hasn't come through with a phone number yet. It was supposed to happen at the beginning of the week. This is why I couldn't answer you last night. I was still hoping it would happen today.

I was also still waiting to hear back from Casey. I'm really surprised he doesn't want another crack at you. His car has a couple of 14.1s under it's belt (he ran a 14.2 the last time he and I raced), he should be able to do it again. The problem is his shifter hasn't been right since the last time he and I raced. He messed it up on the very next run right after our last race (the round that I bagged the Tundra), and he's been running it in a semi-repaired state ever since. He wants to properly fix it before he returns to the track. Plus, he has another obligation on Saturday.
Regards, Eric

 

[szvook]

Well, there has been a change in my plans again. I have some family matters this weekend to take care of, so my time is cut. I still want go, but I might be able to only stay for 2 or 3 hours tops. I'll know more tomorrow evening.

 

[szvook]

So my Saturday is shot, I can only stay till 4:30pm which isn't enough time to enjoy the day. Only if the race starting time was earlier, but that would defeat the night hours. So I have to pass on this Saturday, but will make the September 3rd date for sure. Eric, can you keep the ice on...ice, till then?

 

[400Eric]

I'll save the ice even though freezer space is always a scarce commodity in our house. I really wish now that I hadn't bought the ice early. I was just trying to cut down on the things that I have to do on race day cause I always end up late cause I always have too much to do.

Guys, I absolutely HATE to go by myself! Somebody needs to join me! Remember, there is only ONE night racing date left after this one and chances are it will be nasty, stinky, sticky hot on that date.
Regards, Eric

 

[J-Sauce]

If you want, you can put the ice in a drawer or somewhere else less in-demand until the night before the neaxt race day.

 

[lil_dz33]

So whens the next so cal E500E meet?

 

[400Eric]

September 3rd I reckon but it can hardly be called a "meet" when only one E500E shows up at a time.

Are you contemplating joining us?
Regards, Eric

 

[szvook]

It's more of a "board" meet...with a racing purpose. Eric, how was the day?

 

[400Eric]

Thanks for your interest. I posted the results of the day on a thread on MercedesShop on a thread that pertains to modding CIS-E cars. http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/showthread.php?t=245997&page=13 Just pick up the discussion at the top of the linked page so you'll sorta know what we are talking about and then read all of the subsequent posts. Dave weighs in over there too basically telling me I'm wasting my time (like he did here). He's already forgotten that Benser1 has spanked a 500E! :-D
Regards, Eric