400E 400E jerking/hesitation/power loss between 4000-6000 rpm

[gerryvz]

Hey guys

A0005456206 is not available anymore from the dealer.

A0005454906 is though.

Are these two NSS's the same? In other words: can I replace the first one with the second one?

Kind regards
Sam

MB dealer sites in the US are showing this part as available for $90-100, although MB's Classic Parts site is not showing that this NSS for the V-8 cars is currently available. It's important to note that the US dealers parts catalogs are NOT reliable and should NOT be used as an indicator of availability. The MB Classic Parts site is much more accurate.

MB's ISPPI part system is also showing that this part for the E500E and V-8 models is NLA.
View attachment 121109


The switches are available as MB parts from aftermarket dealers, and they are also available as a quality (OEM) part on the aftermarket, at least here in the US. The US company "FCPEURO.com" is selling the genuine MB part for the clearance / discounted price of $80, which is a great deal. Other companies such as AutohausAZ also have them.

So, you could order from the US, or you could try to find a new MB switch on European eBay if you need something closer to home.

Cheers,
Gerry

P.S. I re-iterate my advice as noted in the HOW-TO, for EVERYONE on this site who is a long-term owner of these cars:
View attachment 121112

The sad thing is that this is a pretty significant part, that was used in all of the LH-injection V-8 models (W124, W140 and R129), to go NLA from the company. In the future, when the stock of the "factory" MB parts is exhausted, I hope that the parts that are available are of good quality as compared to the MB original parts.

It really does sadden me to see important parts like this continually going NLA. We are well past the days when esoteric interior trim parts of a certain color are going NLA, like the case used to be 10 years ago. Now we are into the NLA for important parts like headlight lenses and neutral safety switches.

MB Annapolis informed me today that there are 21 of the NSSes for the E500E here in the US, with two of them being in the Robbinsville, NJ main warehouse. So it seems there is stock on hand.

We do not know if it is an NLA part, I will again explicitly ask this, but he did not say that it had gone NLA.

 

[744Brillantsilber]

It is not available according to the Xentry parts Information ("code 402, wird nicht mehr geliefert"), the German MB-parts website and the German MB-classicparts website:
SCHALTER - A0005456206
SCHALTER - A0005456206
Edit: and the original MB-part is now gone from FCP-Euro too, only "OE-supplier" is available...

 

[JC220]

MB Annapolis informed me today that there are 21 of the NSSes for the E500E here in the US, with two of them being in the Robbinsville, NJ main warehouse. So it seems there is stock on hand.

We do not know if it is an NLA part, I will again explicitly ask this, but he did not say that it had gone NLA.

I asked my dealer parts manager today and it IS NLA. Confrimed NLA no stock in europe.

I ordered one from U S of A so let's see if it actually ships.

EDIT- Hedged my bets and purchased a second unit from Germany. Perhaps both will get cancelled but here's hoping. (I have 2x V8 m119 cars so far and hope to get more)

 

[744Brillantsilber]

Good luck with that JC!
Are you telling us you do not already have at least 20 in your storage?

I had a friend in the US order me one from FCP just before they removed the item from the website.
We will see what happens...

 

[gsxr]

FCP now has an aftermarket / OEM version as a regular stock item (not clearance sale), ships in 1 day, at $115 USD:

Mercedes Neutral Safety Switch - OE Supplier 0005456206

Mercedes Neutral Safety Switch - OE Supplier 0005456206

www.fcpeuro.com

 

[JC220]

FCP now has an aftermarket / OEM version as a regular stock item (not clearance sale), ships in 1 day, at $115 USD:

Mercedes Neutral Safety Switch - OE Supplier 0005456206

Mercedes Neutral Safety Switch - OE Supplier 0005456206

www.fcpeuro.com

Anyone have one sitting spare they can check who made it? I mean isn't it a Mercedes Benz Part? Aka is there an OE supplier other than MB for this particular part? Good news of course but I'd be curious what this offering is.

 

[gsxr]

Anyone have one sitting spare they can check who made it? I mean isn't it a Mercedes Benz Part? Aka is there an OE supplier other than MB for this particular part? Good news of course but I'd be curious what this offering is.

I thought this was only an MB dealer part. Could be the OEM item has the Star logo ground off. I'm not sure who the manufacturer is, but AFAIK there is only one...

 

[gerryvz]

MB Annapolis informed me today that there are 21 of the NSSes for the E500E here in the US, with two of them being in the Robbinsville, NJ main warehouse. So it seems there is stock on hand.

We do not know if it is an NLA part, I will again explicitly ask this, but he did not say that it had gone NLA.

It is not available according to the Xentry parts Information ("code 402, wird nicht mehr geliefert"), the German MB-parts website and the German MB-classicparts website:
SCHALTER - A0005456206
SCHALTER - A0005456206
Edit: and the original MB-part is now gone from FCP-Euro too, only "OE-supplier" is available...

I asked my dealer parts manager today and it IS NLA. Confrimed NLA no stock in europe.

I ordered one from U S of A so let's see if it actually ships.

EDIT- Hedged my bets and purchased a second unit from Germany. Perhaps both will get cancelled but here's hoping. (I have 2x V8 m119 cars so far and hope to get more)

Looks like that based on this thread, people are snapping these NSSes up......

I just received this follow-up e-mail from the Parts Manager at MB Annapolis, where I asked him explicitly what the situation was with this part:

 

[JC220]

I just received this follow-up e-mail from the Parts Manager at MB Annapolis, where I asked him explicitly what the situation was with this part:

View attachment 121455

If I was a betting man I'd say 500E board had something to do with this.

I'd also guess that in addition to my 2x ordered there were alot more ordered today. You know who you are!

Funny enough I've never once had a single NSS issue. None, nada.

 

[gsxr]

Funny enough I've never once had a single NSS issue. None, nada.

Really! I've had to replace the blasted thing on almost every M119 car I've had...

 

[JC220]

Really! I've had to replace the blasted thing on almost every M119 car I've had...

Yes never. Out immediate family has about 20 benzes including w126s etc. Never has one had a NSS hiccup.

I guess knowing my luck many of them will sh@rt the bed now

 

[gerryvz]

I finally had to replace mine in November, 2018 because of random limp-home mode occurring.

The NSS was one of the very first spare parts I ever bought for my E500, back in early 2004. I had it all those years !!

Went through 3-4 of them on various M104-based W124s.

Never had to replace the one on my C126, nor on my G320 yet, but have single spares for both.

 

[nocfn]

Mine was replaced when I got a new trans rebuild on both the 124 and the 126, so I have not experienced the NSS issues.

 

[gerryvz]

MBUSA’s stock of neutral safety switches is down further throughout the day, with a total of six of the 21 switches being sold just on Tuesday.

Quite a run due to this forum !!

 

[lightdude95]

Hello everyone

I got my NSS today from the dealer, packaging looked really old (like +10y) so I can imagine they found it in a deep dark hole in one of their warehouses somewhere lol. Is there any way I can test the new unit with a multimeter? Just for my own peace of mind.

Btw: is it normal that moving the lever by hand feels kinda 'not smooth'?

Kind regards
Sam

 

[gsxr]

It's normal for it to feel "notchy" when moved throughout the range.

Only way I know to test is install, then verify with digital scanner that each gear position selected reads correctly in live data on the E-GAS module.

Remember the NSS requires adjustment during installation! If not adjusted properly, you'll get faults and/or limp mode, even with a new switch.

 

[lightdude95]

It's normal for it to feel "notchy" when moved throughout the range.

Only way I know to test is install, then verify with digital scanner that each gear position selected reads correctly in live data on the E-GAS module.

Remember the NSS requires adjustment during installation! If not adjusted properly, you'll get faults and/or limp mode, even with a new switch.

Alright thanks, I'll try to make time to install it this week.

Will keep you guys up to date.


Happy New Year till then
Sam

EDIT: I just checked the production date of my new NSS: 31/08/2004, any reason for concern or no worries?

 

[gerryvz]

No reason for concern.

I installed one made in 2003 on my E500 last year. It works just fine. The NSS does not have a "shelf life".

 

[JC220]

I asked my dealer parts manager today and it IS NLA. Confrimed NLA no stock in europe.

I ordered one from U S of A so let's see if it actually ships.

EDIT- Hedged my bets and purchased a second unit from Germany. Perhaps both will get cancelled but here's hoping. (I have 2x V8 m119 cars so far and hope to get more)

Got emails today that apparently both vendors shipped my m119 NSS'sss

Oops I guess I have 2 spare now (was thinking one or both would be cancelled)

 

[gerryvz]

Got emails today that apparently both vendors shipped my m119 NSS'sss

Oops I guess I have 2 spare now (was thinking one or both would be cancelled)

Share the wealth?

 

[JC220]

Share the wealth?

Well I do have 2no M119 cars currently which have never had a NSS to my knowledge so they will be put to use eventually My 500E sooner than later since I do plan on pulling the engine and trans for restoration. (It really needs nothing but can't help myself not to nut and bolt it)

We don't know if these are hard NLA yet though do we? Maybe more stock will come..... you'd like to think so for a part like this.

 

[gerryvz]

By the way, I now have two spares for this switch. But I did not buy it with intent to sell for inflated prices in the future. I purchased as a hedge to guarantee my car keeps running in the future with factory parts

 

[lightdude95]

Hello guys,

First of all: best wishes for 2021.

I replaced the NSS today, but sadly that did not cure the powerloss problem. To add insult to injury, I found that the flexible fuel hose from the filter to the steel feed line is leaking badly (PN: A1244708075), so I just disconnected the battery to avoid sparks and let the car be until I get a new hose.

Regarding the my main issue; last trick up my sleeve consists of testing the car with another MAF. If that fails, idk what else to do.

Thus far my adventures with the 400E in 2021.

Kind regards,
Sam

 

[gsxr]

Yikes. Replace that fuel hose ASAP... OE/dealer only. Click here for info.

Have you tested the car with MAF disconnected? Try that also, along with a known-good MAF if possible.

I found an old thread where a faulty CKP (crank sensor at rear of engine) caused significant weirdness, click here for details. That would be a long shot, but if your crank sensor is old/original, it might be worth replacing. If it's recent, I doubt that's the problem.

With the new NSS, what fault codes keep recurring after being cleared?

 

[lightdude95]

Yikes. Replace that fuel hose ASAP... OE/dealer only. Click here for info.

Have you tested the car with MAF disconnected? Try that also, along with a known-good MAF if possible.

I found an old thread where a faulty CKP caused significant weirdness, click here for details. That would be a long shot, but if your crank sensor is old/original, it might be worth replacing. If it's recent, I doubt that's the problem.

With the new NSS, what fault codes keep recurring after being cleared?

Thanks Dave.

Yeah apparently it's been leaking like this for atleast a week, I smelled fuel last week but I thought it was just running rich or something. Drove that thing several hundred miles in between. Got lucky.

I will test with MAF disconnected and with a MAF from my friend's 400E.

CPS has been replaced 2 months ago or something with a Hella unit.

Will have to check codes again, was too cold to stay outside for too long.

 

[Vinnie]

Hi Sam,

I replaced the NSS today, but sadly that did not cure the powerloss problem.

I'm sorry to hear that. I know this pain, you fix something, full of hope that it's that golden fix, and then...it is not. But, did the new NSS cure the following problem:

what I noticed the last couple of days is that the idle when getting getting out of gear in N or P does not go back to 600 but stays on 500 and engine rpm fluctuates and after a while has a hard time not stalling. Doesn't happen all the time, but very random. Moving shift lever in and out of gears helps get it back to 600 sometimes.

Best wishes for 2021, too. Lot's of golden fixes. Or better - no needs for fixes

 

[lightdude95]

Hi Sam,

I'm sorry to hear that. I know this pain, you fix something, full of hope that it's that golden fix, and then...it is not. But, did the new NSS cure the following problem:


Best wishes for 2021, too. Lot's of golden fixes. Or better - no needs for fixes

Hi Vinnie

Thanks for the uplifting words. The test drive today was very short (having in mind that it was leaking fuel), but idle rpm seemed a bit more smooth in my opinion. Could've been a placebo effect though. But rpm values were correct in neutral/park (650) and all other gears (500). It must be said that the problem with fluctuating idle rpm didn't occur all the time, more like 5-10% of the time. So longer test drives are definately needed.

 

[Kyiv]

Quick update: I checked the magnets and they both work. Engine starts running rougher when 12V is applied to either one.

I also filmed a few things:

WOT_1st_run: Here I am flooring it, for some reason it upshifts too early 2->3 (happened only once though, always revs to redline when I floor it), but most important thing to notice here is the sudden slower climb in revs as soon as the engine gets above 5500rpm before shifting into 4th.

70percent_throttle_low_power: This video is filmed after the 1st run. You can see that while I'm pressing the accelerator quite far, the engine is very sluggish until it reaches about 3500-4000rpm, after which it suddenly regains power.

WOT_2nd_run: This clip is filmed after the second one, as you can see oddly enough full power is gained again across the entire rpm range...

Could you clarify if your 70percent_throttle_low_power was resolved with a new throttle cable and/or other parts you've changed along the way?

As far as 4 out of 5 time power dip between 5,500-6000 rpm, what what is worth, this is a dyno graph of my 1993 US 400E. I had a power dip between about 4,700 and 5,300 rpm. Eventually, some time later my fuel started clicking, which meant LH module has gone bad. Replacing capacitors in LH module fixed the clicking relay and subjectively smoothed the power curve (I haven't re-dynoed my car). I know you re-capped your LH module and tried your friend's, but perhaps it's worth giving it another look



Lastly, could the badly leaking fuel house cause the fuel pressure drop just enough to gimp 5,500 - 6,000 RPM gain?

 

[lightdude95]

Could you clarify if your 70percent_throttle_low_power was resolved with a new throttle cable and/or other parts you've changed along the way?

As far as 4 out of 5 time power dip between 5,500-6000 rpm, what what is worth, this a dyno graph of my 1993 US 400E. I had a power dip between about 4,700 and 5,300 rpm. Revenuer, some time later my fuel started clicking, which meant LH module has gone bad. Replacing capacitors in LH module fixed the clicking relay and subjectively smoothed the power curve (I haven't re-dynoed my car). I know you re-capped your LH module and tried your friend's, but perhaps it's worth giving it another look
View attachment 122074


Lastly, could the badly leaking fuel house cause the fuel pressure drop just enough to gimp 5,500 - 6,000 RPM gain?

Hello Kiev,

The problem of the power loss was not resolved with a newly adjusted throttle cable, or any other part that I replaced unfortunately. After revving above 4,8-5k rpm the engine loses about 100hp and becomes very sluggish for a minute or two. Intake noise gets considerably louder as well.

I will take another look at the caps of the lh-module though as you suggest.

Well, this problem has been present since I got the car (march 2020), and the fuel leak is something that has developed recently in the last few weeks. But of course I will test the car once I replace the fuel hose and I'll let you all know.

Thank you for your suggestions,
Sam

 

[Kyiv]

The problem of the power loss was not resolved with a newly adjusted throttle cable, or any other part that I replaced unfortunately. After revving above 4,8-5k rpm the engine loses about 100hp and becomes very sluggish for a minute or two.

I meant atn issue with low rpm gain as in your earlier video that you posted months ago. There was a video with two WOT runs and one video with slow rpm gain down low.

Well, this problem has been present since I got the car (march 2020), and the fuel leak is something that has developed recently in the last few weeks.

It could have be there before, you just haven't noticed. Unlike you, I'm no engineer, but could a leaking fuel hose affect fuel pressure just enough to be felt at the top end?

 

[lightdude95]

I meant atn issue with low rpm gain as in your earlier video that you posted months ago. There was a video with two WOT runs and one video with slow rpm gain down low.


It could have be there before, you just haven't noticed. Unlike you, I'm no engineer, but could a leaking fuel hose affect fuel pressure just enough to be felt at the top end?

Yes that is what I meant with sluggish, sorry I should have been more clear. But indeed as you said, it is basically a very slow rpm gain until it hits about 3,5k rpm. Then full power returns unless I go over 5k rpm again, very weird. This problem still persists today.

Haha being an engineer definitely does not make me smarter than you. Yes of course, the engine needs a higher volume of fuel at high rpm's, so if there was a considerable fuel leak all this time, that could have messed with the fuel volume and fuel pressure.

Hell, at this point I'm even hoping that that hose cures my issue, would be a lifesaver hahah.

 

[Kyiv]

Hell, at this point I'm even hoping that that hose cures my issue, would be a lifesaver hahah.

Let's hope for some serendipity!

 

[gsxr]

lightdude, did you ever drive the car while having someone view live data? Especially at the times when the problem occurs? Need to check out what's happing with ignition voltage/timing, MAF airflow, O2 sensor voltage, and other stuff.

However, if you are stilling getting consistent fault codes, those should be addressed first.

 

[Kyiv]

Thank you for your reply. There is oil on the cam magnet pins indeed, which I clean off every now and then. I am planning on replacing them as well (already have the new magnets and the special sealant). I'll keep you updated! Thanks again.

What is that special sealant called/part #? Thanks

 

[lightdude95]

lightdude, did you ever drive the car while having someone view live data? Especially at the times when the problem occurs? Need to check out what's happing with ignition voltage/timing, MAF airflow, O2 sensor voltage, and other stuff.

However, if you are stilling getting consistent fault codes, those should be addressed first.

Not yet, the mechanic at the dealer told me if the other MAF doesn't work we could try going for a drive with the HHT. I'm just not confident anymore in the dealer staff recognizing any weird data from the engine...

 

[lightdude95]

What is that special sealant called/part #? Thanks

MB PN is 001 989 89 20 10. I used loctite 574, which is exactly the same thing

 

[gsxr]

Not yet, the mechanic at the dealer told me if the other MAF doesn't work we could try going for a drive with the HHT. I'm just not confident anymore in the dealer staff recognizing any weird data from the engine...

At this point, you may need to invest in your own SDS. Then have a friend capture video of the live data screens while you are driving. Or send the car across the pond to Blue Ridge MB / @jhodg5ck to be sorted out...

 

[195910]

Dave I've been thinking of doing a driving test with the diagnosis plugged in, but the hood wouldn't close and the cable is too short to get the multiplexer inside the car.
Best to do this on a rolling road

 

[gsxr]

Dave I've been thinking of doing a driving test with the diagnosis plugged in, but the hood wouldn't close and the cable is too short to get the multiplexer inside the car.
Best to do this on a rolling road

Ah, got it. Yes, you need a 38-pin "driving" extension cable. Not sure what aftermarket options are available for this. MB used to sell one but I expect it was not cheap...

 

[195910]

Ah, got it. Yes, you need a 38-pin "driving" extension cable. Not sure what aftermarket options are available for this. MB used to sell one but I expect it was not cheap...

View attachment 122114

Interesting, its also has a flat cable!
this would be very advantageous to have

 

[lightdude95]

Hi guys,

I also had a live readout in mind with the HHT attached while driving. Already have called a more "capable" mechanic that I found through a friend, he also has a HHT and lots of experience.

But sadly there is a much greater issue right now: the flexible fuel line from the filter to the engine is seized (almost welded) to the steel fuel line (A1244706164) which runs from the back of the car to the engine. I used the proper tools (line wrench on steel line and a 17mm ring wrench on the flexible hose), but the nut on the steel line got rounded anyhow and the steel line itself twisted a bit. Really frustrating...

I decided to close everything back up with the leaking fuel hose in place. I called MB today and the steel fuel line is NLA, unless the classic center has it. They're gonna give me a call once they have more info.

Else I'll have to take out to steel fuel line (which I really hope is possible without dropping the subframe or so, I read some horror stories on the internet) and take it to a shop somewhere to make a new one based on the old one, hoping that they can recreate all the bends and provide the correct end nuts.

Starting to think this car is cursed...

 

[gsxr]

The steel fuel line can be repaired, but it will be a nuisance. You can cut off the end, slide a new threaded nut on, and re-flare it. Replacing a larger section may require dropping the subframe, which I'd want to avoid as it's many hours of labor, and while the subframe is out you may as well do a bunch of other repairs ($$$$)...

Photo attached.

 

[lightdude95]

The steel fuel line can be repaired, but it will be a nuisance. You can cut off the end, slide a new threaded nut on, and re-flare it. Replacing a larger section may require dropping the subframe, which I'd want to avoid as it's many hours of labor, and while the subframe is out you may as well do a bunch of other repairs ($$$$)...

Photo attached.

So MB called, they can't help me out, classic center doesn't have any either. Called several shops and they don't make these lines either... There's one junkyard that specialises in vintage benzes and I called them, he said he has a couple of 400's and 500's W124 and that I should send him an email with some pics of the line. I did, now just hoping to get a reply that he can provide me with one.

I don't think there is enough room to cut and flare the twisted end of the line while it's still installed on the car.

I really hope I can take the entire line of without removing the subframe. By the looks of it, it should be possible: removing all the clamps and disconnecting it at the second coupling under the engine. Then manoeuvring it out gently as a whole. At that point, I can either repair it as you said, or put in another line.

 

[JC220]

This is not the correct way but is how I do it with no negative effects.

Cut the broken / rusted line end off with a mini pipe cutter for a clean edge.

Use a custom piece of petrol hose, slip onto end of cut metal pipe directly and secure firmly with a stainless steel fuel clamp.

It will not leak or blow the pipe off it is not that high pressure [4 bar / 60psi]. Indeed think about the original fuel lines under bonnet. They rely on barb only and no actual clamp!

That repair is fine and will save lots of heartache

 

[Kyiv]

Starting to think this car is cursed...

The darkest time is right before the sunrise

 

[JC220]

If apprehensive about my method know that MB ditched the flared nut fuel lines from at least w220s onwards and they have a rubber hose direct to metal pipe like this.

 

[gsxr]

Indeed, the very late 124 production (as of C226336) changed to a single fuel pump, and different fuel filter that uses plain/bulk fuel hose with clamps to connect to the feed pipe (with a different barbed end).

 

[lightdude95]

Thanks for all the good tips & tricks and encouraging words guys. I really appreciate it, gives me confidence to not throw in the towel yet.

I'll wait for a reply from the guy from the mercedes junkyard and see where it goes from there, the fact that he said he has some 400E's and 500E's "laying around" gives me hope.

@JC220 I agree with your method as well, on my friends 380SEC he replaced a rusty part of the steel fuel line with a rubber hose in the same way and it held up fine.

 

[Unavita]

Also:

1) If you have not yet checked fault codes, you MUST do that... clear all codes, go drive the car so it jerks and hesitates, then check codes again. If there are no codes on any of the 5 powertrain modules, that may indicate an issue with fuel delivery or ignition system. There are no sensors in the fuel system and therefore no codes for fuel delivery issues; and intermittent ignition faults don't trigger codes.

2) I just realized you did NOT replace the insulators behind the distributor rotor. At least remove the rotor bracket and inspect the back of the insulator for fluid! This is free... but this problem generally causes misfiring at lower RPM's, not a high-RPM hesitation.

3) Cam advance magnets would not cause your issue, but if leaking oil (common problem), it would be nice to fix them.

4) Engine shake at idle is very likely failed engine mounts. Measure the air gap from oil pan to crossmember. Make sure you are sitting down when looking at the price for new OE mounts. Unfortunately all the aftermarket mounts are Chinese now, can't get OEM Boge anymore.

View attachment 107842

Reading through this thread now as I have experienced this on ocassion. Is this one of those quirky things that can be linked to the ignition not wanting to turn easily any longer as well?

 

[gsxr]

Reading through this thread now as I have experienced this on ocassion. Is this one of those quirky things that can be linked to the ignition not wanting to turn easily any longer as well?

Do you mean the key not turning easily in the ignition lock tumbler?