500E does not start

[verkuilm]

changed the coils, but no difference.............
So still same problem. Stars cold very good en idle nice.
Heatung up it gets more rough. After 2 minuts it dies. It is possible to restart. Then it will runs voor 15 seconds en dies.
Start it again and wil run for 10 seconds. At the end it fires ones en dies directly.
Looks like there something to go wrong when the engine heats up.

Caps&rotos dust caps, all new, no moisture no oil. Cranksensor new....
I think there is something wronh with the EZL.

 

[gerryvz]

The EZL will only fail in one of two modes:

1) The car will not start at all. No ignition power to all eight cylinders.

2) The car will start but only run very roughly on four cylinders (1 side of the engine).

 

[verkuilm]

Thanks!
Okay then is not likly to be the EZL. Looks like there is something hapening while heating up.
Probaly it is switching van open to close loop? Could it be the O2 sensor?

 

[robm.UK]

What about EVAP system? Vent line? Open gas tank cap. Does engine run ok?

 

[gsxr]

You are nearing the point where you need live data from a digital scanner to better diagnose/troubleshoot.

Side question: What brand coils and new crank sensor were installed?

 

[verkuilm]

Yess I think so, will need a scope, already looking on the internet.
Coils, I believe NGK, not possible to get bosch. Crank sensor is a new bosch.
I checked the evap and open gas tank, but no difference.
Gone order new spraking plugs and cables. Just for sure, but dont think thats the problem.
And read the MAF, mabay unplug it and see whats happen.

Thanks for the help!

 

[gsxr]

Not a scope, a Mercedes-specific digital scanner that will show actual values / live data from the computer modules. Specifically, the Star Diagnostics / SDS, either C3 or C4, with HHT-Win support.

Definitely try unplugging the MAF and see what happens! This is easy and free.

 

[robm.UK]

changed the coils, but no difference.............
So still same problem. Stars cold very good en idle nice.
Heatung up it gets more rough. After 2 minuts it dies. It is possible to restart. Then it will runs voor 15 seconds en dies.
Start it again and wil run for 10 seconds. At the end it fires ones en dies directly.
Looks like there something to go wrong when the engine heats up.

Caps&rotos dust caps, all new, no moisture no oil. Cranksensor new....
I think there is something wronh with the EZL.

You could put a trace with your scope on the HT leads from the distributor that was full of moisture in post #32. I suspect the trace will show misfiring again, similar to the engine stumbling in post #40.

If you open the new distributor cap, my guess is it will probably be full of moisture again. Do same for other distributor.

Netherlands. Winter. Low temperature. High humidity? Yes? M119 EZL distributor ignition doesn’t like these conditions. Distributors, compact design, not enough ventilation and dispersal of moisture. They complain.

You report no moisture in oil, which is good. But did you change the oil recently?

I think you are battling against moisture related misfiring. EZL can be damaged because of this, especially if you hold engine on increased revs, loading the coils and EZL while stumbling/misfiring is occurring.

You have non-resistor spark plugs fitted? What about the leads. Non-resistor, wire cored? The 2k suppression resistors incorporated in the plug caps, rotors and distributor terminals.

Have you checked the condition of the spark plugs? Gaps ok?

 

[verkuilm]

Yes cold now. And really wet climate. I removed the dustcaps a few time after the engine dies. But the were bone dry. I will change the sparkplug and wires. Will order them tomorrow. Thanks!

 

[robm.UK]

Ok.

If you found moisture in old caps, chances are IMHO there will be moisture in new caps too. Same design caps. Same problems. When you look, sometimes you find moisture. Sometimes not. Follow this process for best time to see moisture. Start engine from cold. Run for 10 mins. Switch off. Wait 10 mins. Open distributor caps. Moisture inside cap?

Remember your post #32.

Yesterday I clean up the distibution caps, Rotorts and isolators. I have to order new ones. They ar used.
Started the engine, and yess real good. Let it idle for few minutes. Drive a little bit. And all okay. Let it idle for few time.
Engine was all heated up.
Turn it off, wait 15 minutes en start it again. Nothing. Remove the caps, and the left one was full of moisture. Clean both caps.
Now it starts runs for one seconds en dies.
Wil try it today with cold engine.
So I orded new caps, rotos and isolators and seals.

Read a lot of post of this kind problems. So I gone renew all parts.
The only connections I dont see, there must be a problem with the carter breather hose?

Thanks a lot!

This is why I’m leaning to moisture in distributor caps.

The cycle of turning engine off, waiting for 10 minutes, and restarting, is one of the main pointers for moisture related misfire. If bad enough, engine will not start.

Suggest you try the 10/10 test again.

 

[verkuilm]

Will try that again, takes me 30 seconds to remove the whole caps&rotors en dustcap. But never see any moist again. Pretty sure that is not the problem. Next time I will unplug MAF and O2 sensor.

 

[robm.UK]

Ah, dustcap, insulator. Different terminologies for same thing. You don’t need to remove rotor and insulator. If moisture is present after short warm up, it will be on the inside of the distributor cap. A mist of condensation.

30 secs? You’re well practiced.

Moisture might not be the problem, but I suspect you might have a number of issues, but not necessarily related. Process of elimination.

I am impressed with your diagnosis so far. The photo of the circuit board inside the EZL. Brilliant!

 

[verkuilm]

Start the 500 again. And same. Runs. But if the coolant tempature hits the 50 celcius it quits.
What happens with 50 celsius?
Just for sure check for moisture, but it is dry.
unplugged the MAF, but that does not matter.
I have to find diagnose computer, or bring the car to someone with that.

 

[frall]

Another thing: is there a difference in stability of the idle if you change from N to D?

 

[robm.UK]

Have you tried a 0.5 mm spacer on the new CKS?

View attachment 123825

 

[gerryvz]

Have you tried a 0.5 mm spacer on the new CKS?

View attachment 123825

Yes, I believe the @gsxr has talked about this and experienced this situation in the past.

 

[gsxr]

In my case, it was an intermittent code 18 on the EZL (crank sensor magnets not recognized). Adding the shim cured the problem permanently. This was over 10 years ago, btw, on a 1992.

 

[verkuilm]

There is no code for CKS. We chaned it for a new one but no difference. I will check the result in D. I'm now looking in manuals to find out how this LH and EZL is working with cold start. And what happends when heating up. It is probaly not the EZL as explained over here.
But I'm not sure for the LH unit. Whe had some trouble wit h that, replace the capicitors. But mayby there soms other circuits defective. Gone look for another one.

 

[robm.UK]

Post #65. “Usually no codes”.

 

[robm.UK]

In my case, it was an intermittent code 18 on the EZL (crank sensor magnets not recognized). Adding the shim cured the problem permanently. This was over 10 years ago, btw, on a 1992.

Dave, is this the same code 18 that the OP got from pin 4 LH in post #1 below?

Thread '1991 500E codes - Engine dies after 1 minute'
1991 500E codes - Engine dies after 1 minute | Troubleshooting and Diagnostics

 

[gsxr]

No. Code #18 from a different module. This is why it's critical to specify which module a fault code is from:

Pin 4 (LH) code 18 = No CAN data transmission with DI control module (N1/3)
Pin 17 (EZL) code 18 = Magnets for CKP sensor (L5) not recognized

 

[JC220]

There is no code for CKS. We chaned it for a new one but no difference. I will check the result in D. I'm now looking in manuals to find out how this LH and EZL is working with cold start. And what happends when heating up. It is probaly not the EZL as explained over here.
But I'm not sure for the LH unit. Whe had some trouble wit h that, replace the capicitors. But mayby there soms other circuits defective. Gone look for another one.

Make absolutely certain the crank sensor is a genuine MB part. No exceptions. If unsure buy a genuine part.

I keep spare, known good tested modules for all my cars. Including MAFs and EZLs. This is recommended on this forum. Makes for easy troubleshooting and given the age of these cars the parts will soon vanish

 

[gsxr]

Make absolutely certain the crank sensor is a genuine MB part. No exceptions. If unsure buy a genuine part.

Joe, have you had problems with aftermarket M119.97x (LH-SFI) crank sensors? If so, what brands / what problems? OE is painfully expensive here, $256 USD list, ~$190 discounted. Aftermarket Bosch (unknown COO) or Hella (Spain) are $70-$100.

I keep spare, known good tested modules for all my cars. Including MAFs and EZLs. This is recommended on this forum. Makes for easy troubleshooting and given the age of these cars the parts will soon vanish

Plus eleventybillion: ^^^

Unfortunately, you need to have your car running normally to test the spare items purchased. Ideally you install the spare for a few hundred miles (or longer) to confirm it works over the long term with no intermittent issues.

 

[JC220]

Joe, have you had problems with aftermarket M119.97x (LH-SFI) crank sensors? If so, what brands / what problems? OE is painfully expensive here, $256 USD list, ~$190 discounted.

Yes absolutely. I had a Lucas m119.970 sensor which looked high quality. However my good EZL was soon broken with intermittent crank signal caused by a tight fitting plug on that crank sensor. I had to replace the sensor with MB and the EZL with good used. The symptoms were occasional no start extended cranking. Tried the shims etc no difference. After genuine sensor & used EZL was fitted all good.

I see this regular on all MB models. New aftermarket ABS sensors for example being intermittent almost 100% failure rate.

Unless the part is OEM reboxed with MB part number ground off - avoid.

I do not fit any none genuine sensors anymore it is a waste of time and money. There is a reason why an aftermarket ABS sensor is £20 VS the £120 MB option (w220 as example).

 

[gsxr]

Ouch. Any chance you still have the offending Lucas sensor floating around? I'd like to see photos of it. I just installed a Hella (Spain) CKP on a car and it's been working ok so far, but now you have me nervous.

 

[JC220]

Ouch. Any chance you still have the offending Lucas sensor floating around? I'd like to see photos of it. I just installed a Hella (Spain) CKP on a car and it's been working ok so far, but now you have me nervous.

I *think* I binned it Dave to be honest - I also have 400,000 parts in my garages but I will keep an eye out incase I spot it still here and send photos.

 

[verkuilm]

Yesterday we invest some more hours on the car. We also borrrow a snap on diagnoistic tool.
First of all, we had this code found with blinking codes
Pin 4 (LH) code 18 = No CAN data transmission with DI control module (N1/3) BUT found out, cars befor july 1991you can ignore that.

With snap on, there is more info. When the car dies it says no communicatie with CPU, when we looked in the LH module as it dies.
Difficult is, when the engine dies, you can restart it. But after a while of starting there was no reaction. Tried to start it with brake cleaner and it fires!
We are sure the problem is in the fuel systeem. The igniotion is oke.
And we ar for 90% sure the LH unit is shot, so we have to find an other one.

I agree, it is crucial to have some spare good working spare modules. But they are hard to get over here and really expensive.

 

[gsxr]

Remember that for short-term test purposes, you can use any M119 LH module, even one from a different chassis or 4.2L engine.

For a good spare it needs to be from a 5.0L engine. If you aren't picky about part numbers, they are available at reasonable prices in USA, and shipping isn't too expensive overseas since the weight is <2kg.

 

[verkuilm]

Thanks! Found one over here, with the correct number. It is onlu without WOT. But correct number, foud a very good list in this forum.

 

[verkuilm]

So yesterday I Mounted the other LH module witch was sent to me. And Yess it keeps running now.
When heating up there is still a lot of misfire. But when warm it is almost 100% oke.
Did drive a little bit, not that far, the car is not registrated. I think I have to drive for few hours first.
But let it run for an hour, driving a little, idle...

Sofar what happend, takes weeks and lot of hours, when the car did not start:
-replace capicitors in LH module. Fuel pump running again, but no fire.
-Replace upper harness and lower harness. But no starting.
-Changed the EZL, starts, but runs terrible after a few minuts.
-Changed caps and rotors from Rockauto. Looks fake.
-changed caps and rotos, dustcaps from MB runs cold nice but heating up it dies.
-Replace the LH modul and now it keeps running but misfire in the heating up pfase. But it is possible to drive once again!

The only whe changed with no difference was the crank position sensor. But that is oke, cheap part and the old one looks really old.

 

[verkuilm]

Nice weather now so we drive around. Started pretty well. Drives voor 99% oke.
But stopped for fuel. Started it again. En then it runs strange low in rev. If I brake on the engine it hesitates enourmus.
We channged the O2 sensor But same. Stupped thing is, it is not always a problem.
I think:
-the used LH unit has a problem it is used not tested one.
-ETA throttele body, is stil the orginal one. Could that gives a problem.