Alternator/belt squeal

[ALL500]

Well... I actually didn't get a rebuilt one. I got one off a parts car (1992 400e), it says 'Made in Germany'. The two times it did fire up last night were the quickest it ever has. I could take the starter from my other 500e, but if something is frying them, I'm not so keen on that.

 

[gerryvz]

It's not uncommon for rebuilt brand-name units to be defective out of the box. I had a defective Bosch alternator some years back on my 560SEC right out of the box. It was replaced rapidly.

 

[ALL500]

Hmm. Welp, maybe I'll go on then and swap starters from my other car. I know that one is still good atm. Just to clarify, there can't really be anything else in the chain causing this failure? Harness and battery are good. I believe the ignition switch is good, had the (front part?) of it replaced. Main ground wire? Alarm lockout? Or maybe I'll do as Klink suggests and test the starter. Or maybe I'll just buy a brand new one. Sheesh.

 

[Klink]

Tried two batteries, one from my daily driver. Haven't tested them but no problems with either.
I attempt to crank the engine at the 10 sec mark and release at the 14 sec mark.


[video=vimeo;139292367]https://vimeo.com/139292367[/video]

Well, the lamp brightness barely changed, yet we can hear what sounds like a starter solenoid engaging. Obviously, the correct way to test this is with voltmeters on the operating circuits, etc. etc., but based on this simple test, it appears that the starter motor itself is not drawing any amperage for whatever reason. It's likely that either the switch in the solenoid is bad, or the starter motor itself is bad, but I repeat, this is not a be-all and end-all test...

 

[ALL500]

So the solenoid can be bad but still engage as well? I can just spring for a brand new starter, but before I do that - is there anything that can be causing these starters to 'burn out', assuming that they are not bad to begin with? I'm going out now to do a highly sensitive and complex test involving a hammer and high velocity...

 

[Hakie]

Did you measure the voltage on the battery? The battery (or 2) can still fool you. Measure the voltage (no load) before you start. A fully charged battery gives 13.6 volt. While starting (load) it can drop to 12-10.5V. Clean (sandpaper) the contact of the mass cable to the chassis and the chassis connection of the car in the back, near the battery.

A bad battery example gives 12-12.8 volt (no load). While starting it can drop to 8-9 volt. Engine will not start. (Example).

 

[samiam44]

I replaced mine with a mb rebuilt Bosch and tested it prior to installation. Those 2 allen bolts that hold on the starter face fwd, the threads are in the starter. I suggest a good soaking w penetrating oil. Make sure you put the shims back and the pin.
The mb starter was only a little more than bosch aftermarket. But, they are done at a different factory in Europe.

M

 

[gsxr]

So the solenoid can be bad but still engage as well? I can just spring for a brand new starter, but before I do that - is there anything that can be causing these starters to 'burn out', assuming that they are not bad to begin with? I'm going out now to do a highly sensitive and complex test involving a hammer and high velocity...

The solenoid (small thing on top) and starter motor (big part) are two separate items. The solenoid can engage and pull the drive gear into the flywheel (the loud click), but the motor itself may still be defective and not turn the engine. The hammer test would be the next suggestion. If GENTLE tapping brings it back to life... you get to do the job all over again, this time with a Bosch rebuilt starter. Cost should be $150-$200 or so, last I checked.

If the battery is at fault, the dome light will go dim or completely out when you turn the key. Looked bright in your vimeo, I doubt that's the issue.

 

[Hakie]

It's a 60 seconds job to check the battery by measuring. Just to exclude it.

 

[gsxr]

It's a 60 seconds job to check the battery by measuring. Just to exclude it.

I agree - definitely good to double check, so you can rule that out.

 

[ALL500]

Thanks,

Hakie, that's a great idea, I had previously cleaned my battery contacts, but not the one actually attaching the negative cable to the chassis. I went over everything again with sandpaper this time, but no difference. I don't have a meter to check the batteries I tried, but they both barely blink with the headlights on and attempted starting. Windows still roll quick. Not scientific, but my 'hunch' is it's not the battery, hope I'm right. I should get myself a meter to verify asap.

Samiam - I don't remember a pin, just the three shims, I hope I didn't lose something.

GSXR, thanks, I tried to keep it to a gentle tap... tried. I have removed the starter again, half way through the fun once more.

It still baffles me that it fired up so strong and quickly then I leave it to sit overnight (with battery unplugged) and then nothing. Maybe that 'new' starter had two mighty displays of strength before it's final death throes? Weird.

Anyways, I have a question: Are the starters between the w124/w210/w211 interchangeable?
I have my eye on this brand new one meant for a w211 E320:

REPC320130

 

[gsxr]

Anyways, I have a question: Are the starters between the w124/w210/w211 interchangeable?
I have my eye on this brand new one meant for a w211 E320:

REPC320130
View attachment 43664

NO! The starter will be M119-specific. Bosch aftermarket # SR461X:

http://www.autohausaz.com/search/product.aspx?sid=r3ncm445zpner1zkltyg1cec&partnumber=SR461X

http://www.amazon.com/Bosch-SR461X-Starter/dp/B000BZIN9E

https://www.google.com/#q=SR461X

 

[ALL500]

Yes sir, Bosch #SR461X it is! I will write it 100x on the blackboard first hehe. I'll post back as soon as I get it and install.

 

[ALL500]

Here is the original starter:

[video=vimeo;139858901]https://vimeo.com/139858901[/video]


Here is the absolutely mint condition and cosmetically perfect 'New' starter that I had the success with.
I will admit it's rough, but it is working no? Is it suppose to spin stronger/faster?

[video=vimeo;139860657]https://vimeo.com/139860657[/video]

 

[jouniu]

At least replace all bearings in starter. They cost pennies and since you are in NA you can enjoy cheap summit parts: http://www.summitracing.com/int/parts/bch-sr461x/overview/

 

[ALL500]

Thanks jouniu. I've been starring like a caveman at the starter, thinking about how to crack it open. The screws are fused on there pretty good. I have a refurbed Bosch on the way, hope that will do the trick. It will be good to have a backup, I haven't quite pinned down where to buy specific parts for the Bosch SR461X, still looking.

 

[ALL500]

I've installed a refurbished Bosch SR461X and have gone 48 hrs without a hitch.



What is this "No striking with hammer" business?!

 

[Klink]

I've installed a refurbished Bosch SR461X and have gone 48 hrs without a hitch.

View attachment 44042

What is this "No striking with hammer" business?!

View attachment 44045

Lol...
Back in the day, whenever a starter would not crank, someone would inevitably strike the starter with a hammer. In many cases, it worked immediately after that. Even more common was the deployment of "buddy system", whereby one person held the key in the crank position while the other smacked the starter with whatever was handy. These methods would often get a last gasp out of a worn-out starter, enabling one to drive home, and/or confirming the suspicion of a faulty starter.

Then, starting in the '80s, these much smaller and lighter weight permanent magnet/reduction drive starters where phased into production, eventually completely replacing the larger and heavier electromagnet field starters. These compact starters use a ceramic like material to make extremely strong permanent magnets. This material lines the inner wall of the starter motor housing. This permanent magnet material is brittle and fractures easily. Apparently, the starter manufacturers and rebuilders began receiving used starters with these permanent magnets all cracked to pieces...

If I remember correctly, those "don't beat on me" stickers started appearing on Bosch remanufactured starters in the late 80s and persisted at least through the 90s. Those stickers may even still be in use, and I think I recall seeing them in some ECE standardized(?) visual icon format. I can't say for sure, as they have long since faded from my notice, and I don't handle starters very often...

 

[sheward]

Guilty, although the statute of limitations has long run out. Interesting stuff.

drew

 

[Klink]

Guilty, although the statute of limitations has long run out. Interesting stuff.

drew

Oh, everyone is guilty. Probably even the Honcho, despite the prominently displayed "nicht schuldig"

 

[Klink]

I neglected to mention that as you might imagine, the potential humor lurking in this sticker was not lost on us. Most of them were removed only to be placed on recalcitrant computers, workshop equipment, office machines, engines, the removed transmission sitting on the assembly stand, vending machines, the back of your friends motorcycle helmet, etc...

 

[600Eric]

What is this "No striking with hammer" business?!

View attachment 44045

That sticker is as unbelievable as it is hilarious. :lol:


PS: There are some carburetor companies that could use those as well.

 

[Klink]

That sticker is as unbelievable as it is hilarious. :lol:


PS: There are some carburetor companies that could use those as well.

Absolutely! Carburetor being derived from a French word that means "don't f$ck with it!"

 

[ALL500]

... I was just looking at it thinking... How... how did they know... ?