Best speaker replacement choices with stock 1432 Becker on 1992 500E

[maplevalleyhammer]

Per the thread starter, my stereo works well but the 22 year old paper cones sound muffled. Given the output of the stock unit, are there some decent options that match the OHM's of the factory unit or are otherwise efficient enough to work with said unit?
Thanks!
Brian

 

[gsxr]

Rainbow Audio up front in the dash: http://www.w124performance.com/images/W124_stereo/Rainbows/

Don't waste money upgrading the rears, they are quite good, and their only function is rear fill anyway. I had a stock rear speaker fail, I just replaced it with a good used one. I will never understand why people mess with the rear speakers in the 500E... the woofers are decent size and the dual angled tweeters will work better than any coax you can shove in there.
http://www.w124performance.com/images/W124_stereo/OE_MB_speakers/rear_140mm_sound-system/

 

[maplevalleyhammer]

Thanks Dave!
I get "muddy" sound whether I fade front or rear. Seems like the Becker works fine but the 22 year old speakers have seen better days.....maybe it's my 55 year old ears though. I figured if I put in fresh speakers, it would help. I can't seem to find the Rainbow speakers???
Could it be my Amp/Head unit that is in need of refurbishment instead?
Brian

 

[maplevalleyhammer]

Been searching until my eyes are bleeding but I did find a good reference on speaker removal.....http://www.peachparts.com/Wikka/W124Stereo

 

[DerFuror]

Been searching until my eyes are bleeding...

Consolidate your blood-letting. There's plenty of related info in our own ICE Forum such as this.

 

[gsxr]

Thanks for the link, Derf.

I still disagree that a speaker in the dash, which does not completely fill (meaning SEAL) the hole, will sound ok. The basket needs to completely seal the dash hole in order to sound correct. The only exception is tweeters. A four-inch speaker would need a custom baffle fabricated like this, and believe me, it wasn't worth the effort.

 

[2phast]

Thanks for the link, Derf.

I still disagree that a speaker in the dash, which does not completely fill (meaning SEAL) the hole, will sound ok. The basket needs to completely seal the dash hole in order to sound correct. The only exception is tweeters. A four-inch speaker would need a custom baffle fabricated like this, and believe me, it wasn't worth the effort.

Not a correct statement. A front to rear seal is important for any speaker that is producing low frequencies. If you run a proper high pass filter on the 4" dash speakers (to filter out low frequencies which will just damage them anyway) a gap is a non issue. Midbass and subs being the only exception.

The rear deck speakers might of been ok back in the 90's, but in the now, there are plenty of dynamic speakers that can provide a much better listening experience. Regardless if the rear speakers have angled tweeters or not. Combined with a high end DSP headunit, you can tailor the sound field to properly deal with early/late reflections. Rear fill is just as important as your main stage, as the entire visceral listening experience is highly dependent upon them.

You don't need to spend a ton of money to upgrade your sound system and you don't need a ton of power either. The loudness of your sound system is in direct proportion to the efficiency of your speakers. The higher the efficiency, the less power needed to produce a given sound level. Speaker efficiency is measure in DB at one watt, measured at one meter away. A speaker with a efficiency of 95 db 1w1m would take twice the power to increase its efficiency by 3 db.

 

[gsxr]

Rik, I disagree, but I'm tired of arguing.

 

[2phast]

Rik, I disagree, but I'm tired of arguing.

If you have every been to a opera, symphony etc., you notice many audiophiles picking out mid row, center section seating. This provides a enhanced listening experience. A experience that allows you to enjoy the sound coming from the stage and early/late reflections (sounds that pass your ears, reflect off of a surface and head back to your ears). This experience allows you to localize all the sounds on the stage, whether they be violins on the left, brass on the right, percussion in the rear etc. Now take a recording of that performance and play it in your automobile. The results are going to be less than stellar and no where near replicating the "live" listening experience. A audiophile is one that does try to replicate this experience, whether it is in the home or the car. If you don't fall into this category, then of course spending the time researching correct acoustic reproduction isn't going to be something your interested in. But, there are those of us whom tend to go a bit overboard with trying to recreate the "live" experience. While this is difficult in a home theater environment (even sitting in a optimum location) it is compounded in a automobile with so many surfaces for reflection AND sitting off axis to the sound stage. We work around these issues by implementing complex equalization and digital signal processing to address non-optimum speaker locations, off axis listener positions and hard/soft reflection interference.

I am sorry you consider these types of conversations "arguing", as I am merely trying to help. You can do your own due diligence on the topic and arrive at the same conclusion.

Here is a starting point if you are so inclined.

http://soundoctor.com/whitepapers/subs.htm

This is the last IASCA winning sound system I built/campaigned. It was undefeated in the 0-100 watt category. As featured in the June 1997 issue of Car Audio & Electronics.

http://2phast.com/porsche1/mag1a.jpg
http://2phast.com/porsche1/mag2.jpg
http://2phast.com/porsche1/mag3.jpg
http://2phast.com/porsche1/mag4.jpg
http://2phast.com/porsche1/mag5.jpg

 

[Maui]

 

[gsxr]

Very nice install in that 911, Rik!

 

[M104-AMG]

Dave, who's the best vendor for Rainbows now ?

neil

 

[gsxr]

Dave, who's the best vendor for Rainbows now ?

Good question. I'm not sure anymore, I think the previous US vendors no longer carry them. We might have to import from Europe.

Note that they have changed the design & packaging slightly, with a new part number as well... now IL line, previous IQ. Photos of both are on my website at the link in post #2.

 

[600Eric]

Dave,

M104-AMG beat me to the punch as I plan on installing new Rainbows in my car and was going to ask where the best place was to source them. As far as the stock Becker 1432 head unit is concerned as much as I am divided on leaving it or replacing it I am considering two options 1. Replacing it with one of the modern Becker units available from Becker Autosound (assuming it is a plug an play install). 2. Not crazy about this option but maybe install just a simple / clean modern unit from Nakamichi, Blaupunkt, Etc. (i.e. nothing with crazy lights, retractable screens, etc.) The most important thing I absolutely do not want to butcher the wiring harness, install new aftermarket amps, etc. I want a completely sanitary installation. All that said are you aware of anyone who makes a wiring harness adapter for the MY '92 '93 cars with the Becker 1432? In looking online all I can find is one for the '04 with the 1692 (Metra 70-1784 Harness).

 

[gsxr]

ebergstedt, the 1432 cannot be replaced with anything newer, without COMPLETELY rewiring the entire system. Your choices are to add an iPod input to the 1432, or totally rework the entire system.

There is no adapter for cars with the 1432 head unit. It is a unique design with the tuner in the trunk. The head unit is simply a controller. There's not even an antenna lead up front. The tuner, amps, everything is in the trunk. The simplest option is to have Becker refurb the 1432, add the auxiliary input, and retain the stock amps.

Search the forum, there is lots more information about this.

 

[Maui]

I picked up a Monster Cable cassette adaptor and it sounds great. I just wish it would charge the ipod.

 

[gsxr]

I picked up a Monster Cable cassette adaptor and it sounds great. I just wish it would charge the ipod.

That is the quickest / easiest solution. It works quite well. You can add a power socket in the front rolltop box, with an iPod charger, and keep everything in there with just the wire running out to the cassette adapter.

For my "permanent" setups with either 1492 or aftermarket head units, I use a Blitzsafe Uii-FX with the level matching knocked up a notch (BAM!), this allows charging the iPod, and allows it to remain in the center rolltop without cables sticking out.

 

[600Eric]

ebergstedt, the 1432 cannot be replaced with anything newer, without COMPLETELY rewiring the entire system. Your choices are to add an iPod input to the 1432, or totally rework the entire system.

There is no adapter for cars with the 1432 head unit. It is a unique design with the tuner in the trunk. The head unit is simply a controller. There's not even an antenna lead up front. The tuner, amps, everything is in the trunk. The simplest option is to have Becker refurb the 1432, add the auxiliary input, and retain the stock amps.



Search the forum, there is lots more information about this.

Thanks for the info and bummer.... Oh well I definitely did not buy a 500E for a sound system and at least it will save me some $$$ but I will probably send the 1432 to Becker and have the iPod integration installed. As for the speakers is it worth the $$$ to install the Rainbow's or just leave stock and focus on other improvements.

 

[gsxr]

My $0.02: Try the stock speakers first. The stock speakers aren't bad. No, they aren't IASCA quality, but for most people, they are tolerable. If you find that you want the front end a little brighter, try the Rainbows up front.

 

[M104-AMG]

Dave,

M104-AMG beat me to the punch as I plan on installing new Rainbows in my car and was going to ask where the best place was to source them. As far as the stock Becker 1432 head unit is concerned as much as I am divided on leaving it or replacing it I am considering two options 1. Replacing it with one of the modern Becker units available from Becker Autosound (assuming it is a plug an play install). 2. Not crazy about this option but maybe install just a simple / clean modern unit from Nakamichi, Blaupunkt, Etc. (i.e. nothing with crazy lights, retractable screens, etc.) The most important thing I absolutely do not want to butcher the wiring harness, install new aftermarket amps, etc. I want a completely sanitary installation. All that said are you aware of anyone who makes a wiring harness adapter for the MY '92 '93 cars with the Becker 1432? In looking online all I can find is one for the '04 with the 1692 (Metra 70-1784 Harness).

Eric et al., anyone have a source for the Rainbows ?

neil

 

[gerryvz]

La Jolla Audio used to carry them. Try the Rainbow site in Germany and see who their US distributors are (or send them an email).

 

[maw1124]

Does anyone here have info on the speaker size for the front door of a '92 car?

I've had all the factory stuff removed and am running a modern head unit with sound-shaping, sub pre-outs, etc. I'm happy with 4" in the dash.

I'm not happy with what I think are the 5.25" I had put in the door. First, I want to make sure that's the right size diameter. Next, I want to confirm what mounting depth I have to play with there, from the factory with no modifications.

I apologize if this information is already here somewhere, but my eyes are getting tired and I haven't found it just yet. It could be that I need to add crossovers, but I want to tick off the basics first before I go back into the doors.

Cheers,

maw

 

[gsxr]

The door speakers are an odd metric size and there is no aftermarket replacement available that fits properly, that I'm aware of. I've seen people stuff wrong-size speakers in there but the results tend to be poor.

FWIW, I have the exact same problem in my 92... a previous owner replaced all the factory stuff with aftermarket (except the door speakers), and there is a distinct lack of bass output up front, and no amount of tweaking tone control or crossovers seems to help. I am suspicious there is both an impedance mismatch, and also some custom frequency-response tuning built in to the stock amps. In this scenario, the best solution is usually aftermarket doorboards like the Jehnerts.

 

[maw1124]

The door speakers are an odd metric size... and there is no aftermarket replacement available that fits properly, that I'm aware of. I've seen people stuff wrong-size speakers in there but the results tend to be poor.

FWIW, I have the exact same problem in my 92... a previous owner replaced all the factory stuff with aftermarket (except the door speakers), and there is a distinct lack of bass output up front, and no amount of tweaking tone control or crossovers seems to help. I am suspicious there is both an impedance mismatch, and also some custom frequency-response tuning built in to the stock amps. In this scenario, the best solution is usually aftermarket doorboards like the Jehnerts.

Thanks, GSXR. It's that "odd metric size" I'm wondering about. They're certainly not making it easy. If I dig into this, I'll come back to you. This particular install (door and dash speakers) was done while I was away, so I didn't pay as much attention to it as I probably should have.

With a modern system (HU + speakers), impedance matching shouldn't be an issue, which is part of the reason I bit that bullet in the first place. But that may be a reason to get rid of the factory's in the rear deck (although those are not my problem). I find it hard to believe that the rear deck are as good as what's produced today. I know your thoughts on that topic, but I tend to agree with 2Phast on that one.

What I think I may end up with is a dedicated mid-bass for the front doors. If I knew the size, I might be able to make some headway. For example, my E46M had "odd metric" sized midbass speakers all over the place, but people make direct plug ins for those. If that odd metric size is the same as this odd metric size, I can use those here (either the old ones I have or a new replacement set). Also, if the 5.25" that I have fit fine but was just a poor speaker, then a 5.25" dedicated midbass + crossover might do the trick. Finally, I'm noticing that the OE setup was the speakers AND some gadgetry attached (likely crossovers); hopefully they didn't just switch the speaker and hook it up to the gadgetry. See...http://www.ebay.com/itm/like/291546264523?ul_noapp=true&chn=ps&lpid=82

Again, just thinking through my options but thanks for your thoughts. I'm just not at the moment ready to pony up for the doorboards, as much for the money (doorboards + more power to run them = ) as the fact that I like for the system to be "invisible" (apart from the HU, of course).

Cheers,

maw

 

[gsxr]

If you know my thoughts on the rear fill, that will save me some typing, lol! Short version is, you don't go to a concert and stand with your back facing the stage, right? The stock 034/036 rears are plenty good for rear fill. (Note: The early 124's had very poor rear speakers... my comments are specifically for the late-style 'sound system' rears with dual tweeters). Better to invest your time and $$ up front. The rear fill should be lowest priority.

I have a loose door speaker in my shop, I can measure it tonight. I thought I had photos of this already but apparently I hadn't gotten a round tuit yet. From memory, they are something like 7" diameter? I recall the usual 5.25 and 6.5 aftermarket drivers did not fit at all. The door speakers are in their own plastic enclosure, and also have a built-in crossover (just a simple capacitor, IIRC). And, I think they are 2 ohm impedance.

My plan for our 1993 500E is to convert the entire system to the 94-95 setup, which allows plug+play installation of newer Becker CD head units. I'll use all stock speakers, wiring harness, amps, just a newer head unit. The parts are available relatively inexpensively, the problem is gutting the interior to install the harness. The 94-95 stock systems sound pretty decent with just a head unit upgrade. The best-sounding system I have in any car is a full Jehnert install with 15" sub in the trunk, but that would be $$$$$ to duplicate.

 

[maw1124]

That'll be good intel. It looks like something in the 5"-6" range, round. It may be that my guys just replaced the stock driver with the 5.25" coax's that I supplied, leaving the crossover to govern sound going to the 4" dash. That would have been simplest, and IIRC they didn't charge much, so that may have been it. If so, then maybe I can just upgrade the 5.25" coax with same size dedicated mid-bass.

I might not touch the rest of the system after that, as tempting as it is to upgrade the rears. Something tells me the 20+ year old plastic housing the rear speakers (a) will be tough to get out; (b) might fall apart once out; and (c) might not go back in. If anything, I'd buy an extra set of stock rear speakers with housing for the installers to work with outside the car, then just swap them in. Or not. It is, as you say, lowest priority.

By the way, I think the new JLAudio slim fit subs placed in a custom enclosure in-cabin (where the first aid kit now lives), would blow away a 15" sub in the trunk. That's my next thought, as opposed to the one I'm running from the trunk now. If I touch the rear deck, I'll probably do it then. But for now, I'm almost content if I can get the front doors singing a little better.

Thanks, GSXR.

Cheers,

maw

 

[gsxr]

By the way, I think the new JLAudio slim fit subs placed in a custom enclosure in-cabin (where the first aid kit now lives), would blow away a 15" sub in the trunk. That's my next thought, as opposed to the one I'm running from the trunk now. If I touch the rear deck, I'll probably do it then. But for now, I'm almost content if I can get the front doors singing a little better.

I would LOVE to get a clean installation of a slim-fit sub in the first aid kit area, especially if it could be done without cutting a hole in the parcel shelf. Even better if it thumps anywhere near as hard as the 15" box tucked in the trunk side pockets!

 

[maw1124]

I would LOVE to get a clean installation of a slim-fit sub in the first aid kit area, especially if it could be done without cutting a hole in the parcel shelf. Even better if it thumps anywhere near as hard as the 15" box tucked in the trunk side pockets!

Keep your eye on these. http://www.jlaudio.com/10tw3-d4-car-audio-tw3-subwoofer-drivers-92184

If you do the math (and I hope you do, because it'll check mine), I think you can custom mold a fiberglass enclosure that's 17"x11"x7"; 1309 cubic inches, or .76 cubic feet. 7" is a tad tall, but no taller than the head rests when down. When you look at the spec sheet on the JLAudio website, the number that's in question is the 11" (because it's a 10" sub, and I'm not sure how much space you need from the inside enclosure wall, if any). But .76 cubic feet is plenty, and if you reduce it to 6" tall, it's still plenty. Fiberglass isn't as thick as the box material.

I've been waiting and hoping they did an 8" of the same design, as that would fit EASILY. And judging by the way my 10" knocks from the trunk pocket, with it in the cabin, it wouldn't need to knock as hard. I'd use the same amp anyway from the same location, so all the installer would have to do would be get the wire inside the cabin.

When I discussed this with them before, the JLAudio subs weren't out yet, and they were on the fence about whether the enclosure would be big enough for a "regular" 10". The one I have in the trunk was their best at the time for a small enclosure (.75 cubic feet minimum). Not wanting a disappointed customer, they got risk averse on me and advised against it. They also didn't think an 8" would give enough punch. I'm thinking about revisiting that conversation with this JLAudio sub.

maw

 

[8899]

Keep your eye on these. http://www.jlaudio.com/10tw3-d4-car-audio-tw3-subwoofer-drivers-92184

If you do the math (and I hope you do, because it'll check mine), I think you can custom mold a fiberglass enclosure that's 17"x11"x7"; 1309 cubic inches, or .76 cubic feet. 7" is a tad tall, but no taller than the head rests when down. When you look at the spec sheet on the JLAudio website, the number that's in question is the 11" (because it's a 10" sub, and I'm not sure how much space you need from the inside enclosure wall, if any). But .76 cubic feet is plenty, and if you reduce it to 6" tall, it's still plenty. Fiberglass isn't as thick as the box material.

I've been waiting and hoping they did an 8" of the same design, as that would fit EASILY. And judging by the way my 10" knocks from the trunk pocket, with it in the cabin, it wouldn't need to knock as hard. I'd use the same amp anyway from the same location, so all the installer would have to do would be get the wire inside the cabin.

When I discussed this with them before, the JLAudio subs weren't out yet, and they were on the fence about whether the enclosure would be big enough for a "regular" 10". The one I have in the trunk was their best at the time for a small enclosure (.75 cubic feet minimum). Not wanting a disappointed customer, they got risk averse on me and advised against it. They also didn't think an 8" would give enough punch. I'm thinking about revisiting that conversation with this JLAudio sub.

maw

Anything further on an 8" JLAudio sub? Also, I've heard that a custom-made fiberglass enclosure leave a pretty strong odor in the cabin for months.

 

[frm1484]

Looks like in the shallow mount tw series they only do 10s and 12s unfortunately, I had similar idea to maw that wouldn't need as much thump if could get it in the cabin instead of in the trunk (I'm just trying to fill in missing notes, not over power the rest of the music with bass) and having bass fight through a full tank of gas, seat thickness, sound deadening, etc. has always seemed pretty inefficient to me so was also investigating some of the under seat powered sub options.....probably not as good as something in the Med kit area but could be a lot less $$ and brain damage if could find one decent enough to get the job done


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[8899]

Would something like this fit under one of the front seats:

http://www.crutchfield.com/p_091IBUS20/Focal-Integration-IBus-20.html

 

[frm1484]

I believe so, I'm going to measure later today.....that one is pricey but was one I was considering as well, they have others for 300, but focal makes good stuff, and reviewers seem to have praised it for exactly what I was looking for (there was a guy that got one in a 911 so figured should fit our cars)


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