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Bring a Trailer (BaT) Auctions: Worth Listing Your Car or Not?

Question to those of you who have sold on BaT:

Is there some sort of mechanism which would allow you, as the seller, to report a commenter to BaT other than by the regular way in the comment section?


Asking for a friend who was under moderation, then recently came off moderation, but suddenly went back to full moderation after making a totally factual and relevant comment about an significant overdue service item on a vehicle. The seller happens to be a high volume BaT seller. And just prior they had made a comment about the service item in question which was favorable to them (the seller) but not very enlightening to the casual shopper.

Again, asking for a friend. :coolgleam:
 
Sellers have an "Auction Specialist" assigned to manage their auction from beginning to end. So yes, a seller could contact this person if there's a question about comments. But I don't know what, if anything, this Auction Specialist can or would do about reports related to comments.

:scratchchin:
 
Non-Mercedes related, but I adore this car. 1988 Porsche 944 Turbo Cup

Back in the late 1980s, Porsche had a factory-backed 944 Turbo racing series all over the world. Rothmans dumped a several truck loads of money into the series, including TV broadcasts and full 9 yards. Porsche made special 944 Turbos at their Weissach factory for the event with a bunch of magnesium parts that never made it on to the street cars. Well this example in Canada popped up for sale. Wouldn't you have, the original driver from 1988 showed up in the comment section today with a "Hey, thats my old car!" over 30 years later.

58559784549da2Photo-2020-03-05-12-50-15-AM-768x512.jpg

 
Non-Mercedes related, but I adore this car. 1988 Porsche 944 Turbo Cup

Back in the late 1980s, Porsche had a factory-backed 944 Turbo racing series all over the world. Rothmans dumped a several truck loads of money into the series, including TV broadcasts and full 9 yards. Porsche made special 944 Turbos at their Weissach factory for the event with a bunch of magnesium parts that never made it on to the street cars. Well this example in Canada popped up for sale. Wouldn't you have, the original driver from 1988 showed up in the comment section today with a "Hey, thats my old car!" over 30 years later.

View attachment 99687

Watching the race from 1988 now. I love this stuff --- cars you can actually relate to and watch them race!
 
I am very lucky. We both drag race, and she has 3 track championships at Firebird Raceway, including being the reigning track champ in the Outlaw Street class with her E63 (prior championships were with the RENNtech E60 and 500E). Definitely helps when I find some wayward 6.0L M119 that shows up on our doorstep... "well, as long as I get to race it!". :D

:v8:

Dave, how did you two meet? Seriously! 😆
 
Hoovster's old E63 wagon didn't fare well today, RNM @ $13k. Peanut Gallery Pundits opined this amount was all the money and then some, and the seller was foolish not to take it:


I suspect the current condition of the economy, stock market, and that COVID thing likely had more impact on the low bids than the odometer reading and bad door handles.

:watchdrama:
 
I have been opining as to whether or not the hit many people's 401k and investment accounts have taken of late will present a noticeable effect on venues like BaT. Looks like they might.

That being said, I've also noticed that the really expensive, like six figure stuff, doesn't seem to have been affected - yet.

Hmm.

Dan
 
BaT breaking their own rules again.


Went RNM @ $63K (!!!) five months ago.


Same seller and the reserve is still in place on the new auction.
 
Wait. What? You can do that?

Maybe BaT is not getting many submissions right now, and to keep the number of active auctions boosted, they are allowing re-runs of previous RNM's.

:scratchchin:
 
BaT had another tech fail today. Woulda thought they had it sorted out after that 240Z auction crunched their servers a couple of months ago. Same thing happened today with the NSX. They extended the auctions which were scheduled to hammer around that time today.
 
This will be a fun one to watch.


I was going to comment that I wonder what it will look like when they put a coat of paint over that primer, but I didn't want to ruin the guys auction :oops:
 
I was going to comment that I wonder what it will look like when they put a coat of paint over that primer, but I didn't want to ruin the guys auction :oops:

For a BaT newb, his first few comments have been spot on.

He's going to lose big six figures on the car. And appears to know it.

Personally, I think it's pretty hideous. I can walk out to the garage and look at/drive my wife's restored '70 SS that didn't cost but a fraction of what he's got in that restomod.
 
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For a BaT newb, his first few comments have been spot on.

He's going to lose big six figures on the car. And appears to know it.

Personally, I think it's pretty hideous. I can walk out to the garage and look at/drive my wife's restored '70 SS that didn't cost but a fraction of what he's got in that restomod.

I think the same thing. Ferrari like seats, horrible color. A nicely restored original '70 SS is far better looking than this. Here's a decent one but the headlights are not original.
 

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For a BaT newb, his first few comments have been spot on.

He's going to lose big six figures on the car. And appears to know it.

Personally, I think it's pretty hideous. I can walk out to the garage and look at/drive my wife's restored '70 SS that didn't cost but a fraction of what he's got in that restomod.

Agreed, depending on what the reserve is.

The only 1970 Chevelle SS that's worth $300k is one that has under 1,000 miles on it and just came out of the climate controlled storage it was pickled in in 1970. Maybe.

However, it does bring back (painful) memories of my $400 VW convertible restoration that ended up somewhere north of $12k. I think I got $6k out of it when I sold, but that was in the pre-Internet/eBay/BaT days, too. Learned a valuable lesson for that experience besides the hit on my finances. Buy the very best example of whatever it is you can afford. It's far cheaper in the long run. I've lived by that ever since, and remained far less poor as a result.

Dan
 
Just clicked through a bunch of current listings... I'd estimate that 3 out of every 4 are now from dealers.

BaT is basically a dealer-only venue now.

Here are the first few I noticed:

This guy has five auctions:
https://bringatrailer.com/member/nuvo/
Four
https://bringatrailer.com/member/choicedealsnc2017/
Three
https://bringatrailer.com/member/mwcrln/
Four
https://bringatrailer.com/member/360ferrari/
Four
https://bringatrailer.com/member/911r/
Five
https://bringatrailer.com/member/casciomotors/


What a joke.



Bring a Trailer is a digital auction platform and enthusiast community.

BaT Auctions are the best way to buy and sell classic, collector, and enthusiast vehicles.
We curate vehicles submitted by our audience and craft transparent auction listings that present the vehicles as they are—without superlatives or dubious used-car-lot language. BaT’s knowledgeable community of more than 350,000 users and over 145,000 registered bidders vets each listing so potential buyers can bid with confidence.
 
The bidding on a restored '85 Toyota xtracab pickup has reached $58000 with an hour to go.


While this is a very nice example of a desirable truck, the idiotic bits of "memorabilia" that accompany it appear to be inflating the price by something like 50-100%.

This was a $30-35K truck on a good day in the real world.

:pc1:
 
I might just add that I'm glad I'm not a dealer in this market.

A BAT listing might be the only way they have a chance of selling anything in the near(?) future.
 
I honestly never thought I'd see the day when '80s Japanese trucks would bring that kind of bones. I have to recalibrate my brain. I'm sure that 1970s and 1980s Toyota Corollas and Coronas will also start bringing huge money too.

Need to look up what first-generation Hyundai Excels have been bringing.
 
I honestly never thought I'd see the day when '80s Japanese trucks would bring that kind of bones. I have to recalibrate my brain. I'm sure that 1970s and 1980s Toyota Corollas and Coronas will also start bringing huge money too.

Need to look up what first-generation Hyundai Excels have been bringing.


I think early Hyundais are still trailing Hondas of that era by a substantial margin. lol

Pretty much anything 4X4 has been doing pretty well for the past year or two. I feel like it's almost time to create a "clean" BaT account in order to off sell a few of my Toyotas. If only there was something to rotate the proceeds into....
:bartman:


EDIT:
And it's not just 30-40 year old Toyotas. This one pulled a very good number earlier this week:

And it had two significant strikes against it... regular cab and auto tranny.

I'd like to think that my 6000 mile '03 Tacoma (5speed, extracab, stepside) would lure in some bidders with more money than sense.
 
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Hmm...Laura has a 2004 4Runner in really nice condition, the gold color, that she bought new. We've been wavering back and forth on selling it. I wonder what it could bring. She keeps her vehicles in pristine condition. I need to get the TPMS sensors replaced; that's the only issue with it.
 
Hmm...Laura has a 2004 4Runner in really nice condition, the gold color, that she bought new. We've been wavering back and forth on selling it. I wonder what it could bring. She keeps her vehicles in pristine condition. I need to get the TPMS sensors replaced; that's the only issue with it.

4th Gen 4Runners don't seem to do nearly as well as earlier examples. IMO, Mr T made a massive error by not offering a 5/6speed. And the size began to grow outside of the sweet spot that many buyers want to see today.

If her 4Runner photographs well and is totally rust-free, you could take a shot at BaT accepting it. They've not run a 4th gen-or-newer 4R. Yet. But they've begun listing 100 Series Land Cruisers, which were produced 1998-2007.
 
Pretty big number for a final year FJ62 Land Cruiser, as well.

 
This one didn't get much love at close of auction. Buyer got a good deal IMO (despite the M103).

 
This one didn't get much love at close of auction. Buyer got a good deal IMO (despite the M103).


That’s about the price I see similar cars asking on the local Craigslist and Facebook marketplace but that one looks to be in far better shape. Very well bought at $3500
 

So I wanted to try this on a car with which I wasn't particularly familiar, but had some marginal level of interest in doing the comp research.

I went with the '96 Corvette 6speed with LT4. 11k miles. Looks like a pretty nice example of a late C4.


Punched it into that estimator and here are the results:


I was thinking $18-22K for final value before the vig. That website suggests a range of $866 to $1170.


Then I tried a garbage FJ60. Should hammer in the $15-20K range.


The estimator suggests $8600-12900.

#NotReadyForPrimeTime
 
So I wanted to try this on a car with which I wasn't particularly familiar, but had some marginal level of interest in doing the comp research.

I went with the '96 Corvette 6speed with LT4. 11k miles. Looks like a pretty nice example of a late C4.


Punched it into that estimator and here are the results:


I was thinking $18-22K for final value before the vig. That website suggests a range of $866 to $1170.


Then I tried a garbage FJ60. Should hammer in the $15-20K range.


The estimator suggests $8600-12900.

#NotReadyForPrimeTime

Hello! I wrote the BAT Predictor system. I'm still working out the details on how exactly I want to deal with the first day or two of data where we have *very* little in the way of actual bidding (e.g. throw out the stuff where people bid $1,977 because it's a 1977 car etc), or just in general very little information about the trajectory of the auction. If you look at the1996 corvette now, we're 3 days out and the valuation is basically agreeing with you now (note that I didn't play with any numbers to respond here, it just takes a day or two to start narrowing into the actual final results): BringATrailer.com Price Predictor.

The FJ60 that should be in the $15-20k range is now reporting at $13-21k which is about where you're expecting: BringATrailer.com Price Predictor

The problem you're citing is definitely valid and I'm looking into a way to get the machine to make a better-principled guess when the auction is just starting up. After the first two or three days though, the model has latched onto basically the same numbers you have, but automatically. The value add for this modeling stuff is twofold: first, it requires no human intervention to get to the same price point you're saying here (albeit it was a day or two later than you), and second, because it has a huge corpus of data about makes/models, it can do some interesting projections / analysis that may be valuable. Here's the output from the database for W124's, in terms of historical record keeping as well as future inventory predictions:
```
{"make":"Mercedes-Benz","model":"Mercedes-Benz W124 E-Class","model_url":"W124 E-Class","mileage_average":93361.34453781512,"full_count":239,"full_success_count":"79%","full_low":1900,"full_avg":15519.905263157894,"full_high":77777,"full_performance_above_expectation_pct":"-2%","full_price_trend":"0%","prev_90_day_count":27,"prev_90_day_success_count":"66%","prev_90_day_low":3500,"prev_90_day_avg":15314.666666666666,"prev_90_day_high":37500,"prev_90_day_performance_above_expectation_pct":"-4%","prev_90_day_price_trend":"0%","probability_of_sale_next_90_days":"99%","probability_of_auction_next_90_days":"99%"}
```

Happy to answer more questions about the modeling - you're right that it was off initially on those cases. It's a complicated mess trying to get the model to predict the right answer the second an auction goes online - I may end up feeding data about historical highs/lows for the given make/model, which would basically totally eliminate the issue (right now the model just considers attributes about the specific individual auction rather than larger market conditions, which is good in some ways but more rickety in others, like this situation). Sorry to barge in but I did want to provide some more info!
 
Hello! I wrote the BAT Predictor system. I'm still working out the details on how exactly ....

Good for you, I give you credit for doing so (and for being frank about its current stage of development).
I am curious, what did you write your back-end in (Java?, C++, Python)?

One simple suggestion until you figure out how to deal with first couple of days - just put a message up for now that the prediction is not likely accurate first couple of days (and leave that message until you figure out if/how) - it's perfectly understandable and better than creating an initial impression that harms the reputation of your BAT Predictor.

Anyway - good concept and good luck!
 
Personally, I think there's virtually zero predictive value of a bidding trend line over time (on BaT). Especially with such a short time duration and so very few data points.

Aside from the ego-driven bidding war that in sometime inevitable, comps will always rule the day.

It's a fun exercise, but I don't think it's going to pan out.

I've thought long and hard about the absurd bidding behavior on BaT and have come to the conclusion that it's far too riddled with shills, fanbois and big egos to be predicted with any real certainty. Heck, I already think my 15-20K number on the FJ60 is going to be light by a few $K, despite it being a bondo queen.


Disclaimer: I build financial models for businesses and also enjoy following the car "market." Also, I trend to be a pessimist in the conventional sense of the word. lol
 
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......
Aside from the ego-driven bidding war that in sometime inevitable, comps will always rule the day.

It's a fun exercise, but I don't think it's going to pan out.
......

I don't know about that....I think it could be a good/fun tool to have. Yes, for sure comp's will almost always rule the day (unless you get the emotional "two guys against each other and I am going to win at all costs"....like the guy who paid quite a bit more for the yellow Ferrari than the top price it was listed on Hemmings a couple weeks before it was listed on BAT....humorous...or the stuff you point out above...shills etc.).

However it looks like his algorithms take into account comps and I suspect weight more towards recent ones. One of the issues will be is that comps from say 6 mos ago may not be that useful (look where we are now; or with past market fluctuations).

If I were interested in a car on BAT I could do all the comps myself - look at past BAT auctions, go to other auctions sites, look on Hemmings for "private party" sales and discount that a bit etc and then use 4 or 5 data points to make a prediction....I have done that in the past and its pretty accurate unless you get some of the silliness that you point out.....but why bother doing this if most of this can be automated?

You'll never have a tool that is near 100% accurate due exactly to the points you made above - but something that gives me a feeling on final price within say $1K - $2k or within x% could tell me "should I waste time even looking at this car" and save me the time.
 
Personally, I think there's virtually zero predictive value of a bidding trend line over time (on BaT). Especially with such a short time duration and so very few data points.

Aside from the ego-driven bidding war that in sometime inevitable, comps will always rule the day.

It's a fun exercise, but I don't think it's going to pan out.

I've thought long and hard about the absurd bidding behavior on BaT and have come to the conclusion that it's far too riddled with shills, fanbois and big egos to be predicted anything with any real certainty.


Disclaimer: I build financial models for businesses and also enjoy following the car "market."
I mean, I'm a statistician / machine learning engineer first and business person like.... very far from first so don't take this as an earnest play for building a real business. Even at it's best, it's limited by the ecosystem it serves, which is small the point where it's unlikely this would be a profit machine. This is much more "because it was there" than anything else. That said, somewhere in the 3-4 day range (around the halfway mark) the out-of-sample R^2 is around 0.9 so the hypothesis that it can't be predicted with any certainty is demonstrably false - around 90% of the variance can be explained. I think the more specific argument I'd make against it is that while it can perform at 90%, it needs to be at 90% plus some delta such that on average, the predictions it makes are more right than not so as to allow some economic behavior (i.e. flipping cars or something). If it's at 90% accuracy but that's still more-often-than-not a little more wrong than is economically useful, then absolutely, it's a fun card trick but not much else. I'm not in the car auction / broker space, so I can't say whether it's at that economic viability point.

For fun, I'll attach the predicted/actual sample scores for 399 auctions from the 96-hour model (i.e. exactly four days after posting) - the R^2 is 0.88 and the average difference between them is about 12% (i.e. my guess is 12% off final price). Personally? I think that unless you're dealing in large volumes of transactions, that's probably not close enough. I'd want to see more like 4-5% off. Factoring in typical auction prices for that make/model probably would help a bunch on that front, but it feels a little cheaty and makes the model less interesting. The only thing I could see as being truly useful is as a gut-check - if you're already thinking about bidding this could help give a sort of rough bounds of how much it should go for, to help constrain what you should and shouldn't do (unless of course, you get into that macho bidding war, in which case my model probably can't help someone get over their ego).
 

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Do you mind sharing what language you wrote the back-end in and what AI platform you are using (note: I have no plans or time to do anything like this....I have had teams work with various AI platforms in the past to varying degree...so I am more curious than anything)
 
I find BaT's system of plotting completed auctions interesting and helpful, as said, with comps.

While an auction prediction system is an interesting exercise, and use of AI/ML capabilities, it's always going to only be as good as the algorithms that it uses. In the BaT case, there are numerous and HUGE variables at play ... both in a micro and macro sense.

Just take one variable -- the economy -- right now. We're essentially in the worst economy, over the past eight weeks, since the Great Depression. Yet many cars (not the MBs that most of us care about) are still getting stupid high money. Other MBs are rolling along unscathed, and other MBs have fallen off the Earth in terms of demand and prices being paid.

I'm not poo-pooing this prediction system. It's interesting and cool. I'll definitely continue to play with it! I'd love to integrate a link to it as a "sticky" thread in the CARS FOR SALE sub-forum. And I work for a major software company that creates enterprise-grade analytics/AI/ML products and systems, and has for a long time, so it's of interest to me. But honestly I think my own market experience, and knowledge of our E500E models, and nearly 20 years of watching (and recording) the market, is as good of or a better predictor of how a car will do than an algorithm. And as is true with butt-dyno sensitivity, my experience isn't nearly as good nor tuned as that of others here, such as the @gsxr or @ace10 or @maw1124.

So it's definitely something to watch, and I will with interest. Good luck as you continue to fine-tune and evolve the system. Will it become the Zillow of collectable car sales? Interesting potential perhaps.

My biggest issue with BaT is the cheerleading there -- the fact that there are some car models, and some sellers, who seemingly walk on water, can do no wrong, and never had any flaws. And they get cheer-led by gullible individuals. It's a herd mentality and human nature thing.

There's one guy over at BaT, who often comments on 500E and W124 auctions, called "UnhingedTroll" -- he is a real menace. I've seen some AI-based analyses that show that this individual can lop anywhere from $500-5,000 straight off of the final price of a BaT auction.
 
Do you mind sharing what language you wrote the back-end in and what AI platform you are using (note: I have no plans or time to do anything like this....I have had teams work with various AI platforms in the past to varying degree...so I am more curious than anything)
Ah yes of course! I saw your question earlier but got sidetracked. Here's a schematic of my system:
0*BsWDwVZ4mf6yTcjy.png

The yellow queue cylinders are Redis, the Database is Mongo. The blue squares are all Ruby code which I prefer to write in as my go-to-gluing-things-together code. Mainly it's responsible for transacting with BringATrailer, storing transactions into my database, generating numerical feature representations of the auctions at points in time, and then sending emails / feeding results out via HTTP API. The models themselves are scitkit-learn models optimized with tpot which sat rand for 50 generations at a sample size of 50 (e.g. big enough that a brute-force search of the hyperparameter space results in a fairly decent model without much more work). I pulled that schematic from a much longer thing explaining my process and the basics of the results here: Predicting Car Auction Prices with Machine Learning

Hope that helps and thanks for this discussion!
 
Interesting thing about Zillow and real estate in general... IMO... you only need two data points on a given subject property in order to be something like 80% of the way to estimating "market" value.... zip code and square footage.

Compare that with something like a Porsche 993 C2:
How many crucial data points can you name? Maybe half a dozen?

Odo (under 40K seems to be bring top $$, 100K+ falls off a cliff)
Accident history
Transmission (Tip is -20 to 30%)
Color (arena red seems to get a big haircut, for example)
Coupe or cab (Cab is at least -25 %)
Maintenance history (hard to define)

How do you factor in the presence or absence of RL fanbois in the comment section?
The aptitude of a seller to play the crowd?

This stuff can obviously all be scored, but that's just one car model.
 
This is cool. I agree with Gerry and others that I don't see it being a viable tool for decision making other than on a very macro basis, however, that doesn't really take machine learning to do.

It's an interesting exercise and I've very interested to see it refined and in use on BaT.

Like Gerry I like the scatter plots they do. I can look at one of those and get a high level grasp of a car's value or where it should fall for the most part.

Thanks for your work!

Dan
 
Interesting thing about Zillow and real estate in general... IMO... you only need two data points on a given subject property in order to be something like 80% of the way to estimating "market" value.... zip code and square footage.

Compare that with something like a Porsche 993 C2:
How many crucial data points can you name? Maybe half a dozen?

Odo (under 40K seems to be bring top $$, 100K+ falls off a cliff)
Accident history
Transmission (Tip is -20 to 30%)
Color (arena red seems to get a big haircut, for example)
Coupe or cab (Cab is at least -25 %)
Maintenance history (hard to define)

How do you factor in the presence or absence of RL fanbois in the comment section?
The aptitude of a seller to play the crowd?

This stuff can obviously all be scored, but that's just one model.

All very true, the complexity of this vs. Zillow is a good comparison but I look at it a bit differently: this extra complexity gives the author an opportunity to really differentiate his product by optimizing his models and his algorithms specifically because there are so many variables.

AI is so overblown these days and some of the platforms are really not what I consider "AI" - some are just various forms of regression analysis - however - if you a. have real expertise in the domain b. have real expertise in the relevant datasets (the example you gave above or Porsches is a good one) c. use "real AI" d. know how to optimize your models and algorithms .... you can do some really interesting things .....however 90% of the stuff I see out there (I am making up the 90% #) is not real AI, they are just somewhat clever versions of regression analysis marketed as AI.

To be clear - not saying that about this about this product - I think it's clever to try and to provide a tool that could be useful - so I give the author credit.
 
Yes, all the tech guys here know the difference between "predictive" and "artificially intelligent". There's nothing intelligent, in the human brain sense of the word, about predictive analysis necessarily. Maybe that's why the word "artificial" is there. Or maybe @msq is just right and it's mostly marketing. Part of what interests me about the car game generally, and BaT specifically, is that Buyers are expressly not rational actors. They're too... well... intelligent, for that. Nothing can process a multiplicity of dynamic factors like God's own creation the human brain. Anything else is a sub-derivative of that, by definition.

@cogsurp, I haven't spent time with your tool here, but is it intended on some day to be able to predict what the next "hot car" will be, e.g., by using a variety of factors like those from Autotrader lo so many years ago (make, model, type, trans, engine, color, etc.)? That would be really cool, but may yield some funny results. One I can't shake is how in the E46M crowd, they all hate the paddle-shifted SMG and drop-tops; whereas everything I think I know about cars tells me the exact opposite. I think this whole manual transmission thing is a millennial, purist fad (excuse me), as is the whole "track day" car preference for a coupe over a convertible. And I think it lasts no more than 5 or 10 more years. Maybe I'm wrong (won't be the first time) but it would be interesting to see what a machine learning predictor would say.

I once famously predicted that large SUV's were a fad. That was in the 90's and only proved how truly irrational (read "intelligent") are human Buyers and how completely out of touch with the Bell Curve I am.

:deniro:

maw
 
Well, @maw1124, I still see plenty of "Fast and Furious" Hondas driving around with fart-can exhausts, and even the occasional "lowered mini-truck" from the 1980s !! Remember those?
 
LOL to all of that @maw1124 - and yeah, I think you *could* come out of this exercise with some interesting higher-order market movements (e.g. the average price is tracking in certain directions, the model is systematically undercounting certain makes/models, the success rate is way higher for certain makes/models suddenly... really, any discontinuities or strong non-static tendencies could be interesting), that may be useful beyond the simple "price this car!" question that most folks already have a good intuition for if they're about to bid.
 

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