Broken Hydraulic Lifters

[Christian_K]

If some of you might have interest in seeing how broken Lifters behave when removed out of the M119.974 engine, just see my Video here:

I found a few to be broken. I'll replace all with "INA 420004210".

Interesting to see that they all do have a weight of around 70-78g (depending on how much Oil in it), the early ones are supposed to weight like ~85g and the later style like ~62g.

 

[Jim]

Thank-you Christian, ... to be clear the ones that can be pushed down are "leaking" and hence the oil pressure does not take up any valve lash leading to the ticking noise?

Jim

 

[Christian_K]

Thank-you Christian, ... to be clear the ones that can be pushed down are "leaking" and hence the oil pressure does not take up any valve lash leading to the ticking noise?

Jim

Yes they should not be able to be pushed down or their piston pushed in while in my Hands.
You can test this while in the car also, you just need to turn the engine so a specific cam lobe of the lifters to test is pointing upwards and only the base circle is pressing on the lifter. Then try to push the lifter down with a tool that must not be made of steel, i used a piece of wood like the shaft of a hammer for instance.

The Lifters have a small sort of "ball" in them that should close to oil hole whenever the lifter is beeing pushed down by the camshaft lobe and whenever they get unloaded the ball moves a bit back and fresh oil can be pushed in. Thats according to my knowledge by documents in the WIS and some that i did find in the internet by the manufacturers of such cup design hydraulic lifters.

 

[Klink]

Interesting. I have been working on 104, 119, and 120 engines since their introduction. In that entire time, I have seen one (1) count them, one (1) defective lifter that did not have an obvious external cause, such as being operated for a very long time with a leaking oil tube. By long time, I mean daily driver for several years. And by defective, I mean that it frequently ticks at hot idle. And yes, most of those engines that have been operated for incredibly stupid lengths of time with leaky oil tubes can simply have the tubes replaced, and they almost always become silent within a few seconds after start up, and then they stay that way for years longer. I've only seen one (1) car where that was not the case.

Almost all of the lifters that are not in a "wet" engine, that is to say with the passages full of oil, will "fail" the simple depression test, as will many lifters that have been "parked" with the cam lobes depressing them.

Like I said, only one (1) time, without an obvious cause, and it was on a new '91 SL.

Of course, all of my repair experience is here in Yank. Perhaps the rigors of the autobahn are less kind to them...

 

[Christian_K]

I dont know. I just go after the FSM in the WIS. In the Document Number "RA05001192110x" or simply "05-2110" they say if you can depress a lifter more than the others, replace this lifter.
In the Internet people say they are supposed to be able to be squeezed or otherwise they are stuck.
Well i found one cylinderhead to have them all impossible to depress at all while the other one has around half of em like shown in the Video. Either way im going to replace all of em. I will port and polish these heads and will get my cams regrind so im not going to experiment.

For reference there are some Videos here how to "rebuild" broken cup-style lifters/tappets and the question which ones are good and which ones are bad.:

[video=youtube;2Q83mZj3g28]

[video=youtube;ySf0r8GGMOY]

[video=youtube;HT71uhnNYjg]

 

[samiam44]

Christian,


I measured the old lifters out of my late-92 or early 93' heads(had the aluminum oil tubes and eliptical single valve springs). They were all 60-62g.


Michael

 

[Jelmer]

This is awesome. I love these little bits of information, though seeing the engine so ... nude ... still gives me chills. I somehow think I'd never get it back together again.
Sounds like a challenge, though. When can I come visit so we can do my engine?

 

[JC220]

I found this thread after a search. I am working on a m119 motor that has not ran in years possibly.

I notice that most lifters can be pressed in the same amount by hand. Whilst a couple are firm solid and cant be depressed.

Is it a case that since the motor has not ran for so long the oil has drained from many lifters? And possibly when the engine is running again with oil flowing they will pump back up again?

Just thought it was quite strange to see so many easily pressed and a couple hard as nails

 

[gsxr]

Is it a case that since the motor has not ran for so long the oil has drained from many lifters? And possibly when the engine is running again with oil flowing they will pump back up again?

Very likely that they will work fine under full oil pressure, if there is no obvious wear. New are $$$$...

 

[JC220]

Very likely that they will work fine under full oil pressure, if there is no obvious wear. New are $$$$...

Thanks Dave yes on thinking more about it I guess it's just oil has drained out after so long. I think they will be OK

 

[R129 UK]

I dont know. I just go after the FSM in the WIS. In the Document Number "RA05001192110x" or simply "05-2110" they say if you can depress a lifter more than the others, replace this lifter.
In the Internet people say they are supposed to be able to be squeezed or otherwise they are stuck.
Well i found one cylinderhead to have them all impossible to depress at all while the other one has around half of em like shown in the Video. Either way im going to replace all of em. I will port and polish these heads and will get my cams regrind so im not going to experiment.

For reference there are some Videos here how to "rebuild" broken cup-style lifters/tappets and the question which ones are good and which ones are bad.:

[video=youtube;2Q83mZj3g28]

[video=youtube;ySf0r8GGMOY]

[video=youtube;HT71uhnNYjg]

There is so much conflicting information in the comments of the first video link in this post:!!!

[video=youtube;2Q83mZj3g28]

Are good lifters supposed to move when pressed or not?

Do people here recommend replacing or cleaning if you find a lifter that's not functioning correctly? Whether than be squishy or hard? See above question.

Finally, does anyone have a link or any documents that cover removal and refitting of cams where the lifters need attention?

Many thanks!!!

 

[Kridre]

Lifers should be hard when inspected on the engine that was running before. Lifter that is collapsed and soft on the engine that was running is bad and should be cleaned or replaced.

I had 4 lifters that were collapsed on my engine and after the car was sitting for 5 months there was a loud ticking noise that went away after 10 min, but not completely.

When I rebuild my engine, I cleaned all 32 lifters. I had a lot of lifter noise on the initial startup that went away after the engine warmed up. Now there is no more ticking noise and engine never run this quiet why whole ownership. When cleaning the lifters, make sure that they are not rock hard, but there is a little bit move when pressing them, even brand new lifters are like this. They will natural get hard when there will be oil pressure coming in to them. INA delivers instructions how to "break in" new lifters that I cannot find right now and the same goes for "rebuild" lifters.

I suggest cleaning over replacing because lifters are relative simple and there is really nothing that could go bad in them, M119 engine didn't have any lifter issues like M156 had, besides being just dirty from the lack of frequent oil changes.

 

[R129 UK]

Lifers should be hard when inspected on the engine that was running before. Lifter that is collapsed and soft on the engine that was running is bad and should be cleaned or replaced.

I had 4 lifters that were collapsed on my engine and after the car was sitting for 5 months there was a loud ticking noise that went away after 10 min, but not completely.

When I rebuild my engine, I cleaned all 32 lifters. I had a lot of lifter noise on the initial startup that went away after the engine warmed up. Now there is no more ticking noise and engine never run this quiet why whole ownership. When cleaning the lifters, make sure that they are not rock hard, but there is a little bit move when pressing them, even brand new lifters are like this. They will natural get hard when there will be oil pressure coming in to them. INA delivers instructions how to "break in" new lifters that I cannot find right now and the same goes for "rebuild" lifters.

I suggest cleaning over replacing because lifters are relative simple and there is really nothing that could go bad in them, M119 engine didn't have any lifter issues like M156 had, besides being just dirty from the lack of frequent oil changes.

Many thanks for the reply and detailed information. I am planning to start work on my engine tick investigation this weekend.

 

[R129 UK]

I have removed my collapsed lifer and disassembled it to clean it thoroughly.

I then tried to fill it with oil but I cannot seem to get it to fill properly and no longer compress.

I have decided to replace it with a new one (part due to be delivered in a few days) and my question is, should I try to introduce oil before fitting it or just let the engine do the necessary?

I was thinking I could submerge it in oil and then “pump" it to draw in oil and push out the air...

I also checked the ports in the head connecting with the oiler tube and they seem fine when compared with the position of a good lifter. There is a groove on one half of the cavity which presumably allows oil to flow into the hole highlighted below:



Thanks.

 

[gsxr]

See if the new lifter can be "compressed" by hand. If not, install it as-is. It will fill with oil rapidly after startup.

If you can press the new lifter, it wouldn't hurt to try and pre-fill while submerged in oil.

 

[R129 UK]

See if the new lifter can be "compressed" by hand. If not, install it as-is. It will fill with oil rapidly after startup.

If you can press the new lifter, it wouldn't hurt to try and pre-fill while submerged in oil.

Thanks for the quick response!!

 

[R129 UK]

Update - the new lifter came filled with oil so I just fitted it.

 

[rayhennig]

A bit of an aside here. My M104 has new (80K Kms/7 years old) lifters. 5W40 oil for the 27 years I've owned it.

My son's 190D2.5 has varying ticking noises at about 350K Kms. Original lifters, we assume.

We got a huge batch of MB's own 5W30 oil and his ticking dimished. But returns from time to time. He does 10K Km oil changes.

The question. People talk about thicker oil being the answer. But his service records imply that the reverse is true. Great improvement with the thinner oil.

Comments on this?

He's considering changing the lifters. MB at 30+€. INA around 18€. Kolbenschmidt at around 13€. Any comments on these marques? Safer to pay the money for MB?

He's had the car for over 100K Km and nothing has changed. Some clicking but not always.

The oil issue confuses me endlessly. I thought that modern, fully synthetic oils are supposed to stay thinner when cold and thicker when hot. Surely that's what we need??? But what do I know?

And I'm not convinced by the "... read your owners manual ..." comment. Our manuals are 30+ years old and oils have changed greatly over that period.

We're not going to change our oil policy as I have evidence that my 5W40 fully synthetic policy has paid dividends. I'm approaching half a million Kms and all is well. Touch wood.

Sorry to ramble but I have an annoying back pain and have launched into a rather fine, hugely expensive pure malt that a good friend gave me for my birthday.

Best to all.

RayH

 

[gsxr]

The OM60x diesel lifters can wear out over time (which is odd, considering the M119 lifters seem to last longer). You can try different oils first. Generally you'll want something in the 5W-40 to 15W-40 range, full synthetic. 5W-30 is thin for the OM602 diesel. I've had mixed results with different oils quieting OM60x lifters, sometimes it helps, but if the lifters are worn, no amount of snake oil will cure them.

Anyway - if the ticking is not eliminated with different oils, just replace the lifters. I believe INA is the OEM, made in Germany, and would be my first choice. I was not aware that Kolbenschmidt offered these lifters, I'm curious about the COO (or, if they are repackaged INA).

There are only 10 lifters on the OM602 so you're looking at ~€200 plus a few hours labor. When the old ones are removed, try pushing the center button, if it's easy to press... that lifter is likely failed. New ones are typically rock hard. Be careful removing the camshaft, follow the FSM carefully, with the cam lobes pointing upward and releasing all cam bearings evenly / slowly.

With new lifters you should be able to use whatever oil you want. Note that in the owner's manual, xW-30 oils are not recommended at summer temperatures.

 

[R129 UK]

The OM60x diesel lifters can wear out over time (which is odd, considering the M119 lifters seem to last longer). You can try different oils first. Generally you'll want something in the 5W-40 to 15W-40 range, full synthetic. 5W-30 is thin for the OM602 diesel. I've had mixed results with different oils quieting OM60x lifters, sometimes it helps, but if the lifters are worn, no amount of snake oil will cure them.

Anyway - if the ticking is not eliminated with different oils, just replace the lifters. I believe INA is the OEM, made in Germany, and would be my first choice. I was not aware that Kolbenschmidt offered these lifters, I'm curious about the COO (or, if they are repackaged INA).

There are only 10 lifters on the OM602 so you're looking at ~€200 plus a few hours labor. When the old ones are removed, try pushing the center button, if it's easy to press... that lifter is likely failed. New ones are typically rock hard. Be careful removing the camshaft, follow the FSM carefully, with the cam lobes pointing upward and releasing all cam bearings evenly / slowly.

With new lifters you should be able to use whatever oil you want. Note that in the owner's manual, xW-30 oils are not recommended at summer temperatures.

I bought a Kolbenschmidt replacement for my recent engine work. Mainly because I can't abide my MB dealership - they treat parts customers as scum of the earth imo. Probably because we are taking work away from their extortionately priced workshop. I found it online and was more concerned about the correct size / weight than any performance, reliability or quality aspects.

Anyway, purely from memory and with only visuals, I would say there is nothing to identify any differences between the originals already fitted to my engine and the replacement.

I did check the site where I bought mine but there was no COO listed.

Valve Tappets / Cam Follower / Valve Lifter 50006421 by Kolbenschmidt

Valve Tappets / Cam Follower / Valve Lifter 50006421 by KolbenschmidtThe Kolbenschmidt brand stands for more than 100 years of experience in the production of pistons. With its products for petrol and diesel engines in the passenger and utility vehicle se

www.diycarserviceparts.co.uk

It is of course early days as I haven't any real world experience of this rogue lifter I now have fitted and with the tiny mileage I do annually I probably (hopefully) won't get to find out if there are any quality issues.

@rayhennig I too considered the effect of oil grade on lifter "performance" (anti ticking which seems to be oil grade driven from the discussions I've read) and in my simple mind considered thinner oil to be possibly the better option because to maintain the lifter, oil must pass through a very small hole in the side. Could be completely wrong but that was my thought process FWIW. I hope your back gets better before the Whiskey runs out...