Camshaft Regrind Thread

[samiam44]

I'd be interested in welding too- note that he is NOT using the Ina lifters for this installation. Solid buckets, so I'm sure it's easier to have them DLP coated and not have an issue.

http://www.ukwelder.com/forum/lofiversion/index.php/t10381.html

webcams does it. Locally we have a very very old cam grinder in Dallas. Seems to be straight out of a time capsule. My friends tig weld their cams and take them over there and put an existing pattern on the cam. Usually american V8 stuff. Common way to repair vintage stuff.


M

 

[7delta]

I'd be interested in welding too- note that he is NOT using the Ina lifters for this installation. Solid buckets, so I'm sure it's easier to have them DLP coated and not have an issue.

http://www.ukwelder.com/forum/lofiversion/index.php/t10381.html

webcams does it. Locally we have a very very old cam grinder in Dallas. Seems to be straight out of a time capsule. My friends tig weld their cams and take them over there and put an existing pattern on the cam. Usually american V8 stuff. Common way to repair vintage stuff.


M

Just occurred to me... perhaps he's using these as dummies to R&D a profile, that can in turn be made from fresh stock. But, I do agree with you in regards to coating and the like.
Cheers

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

 

[Taxi Driver]

Just occurred to me... perhaps he's using these as dummies to R&D a profile, that can in turn be made from fresh stock. "

Usually you choose a *master* profile, within what's possible to recut, lift & duration will somewhat be restricted IF there
is not "meat" enough to reshape. Going wilder most ceartainly, you must find a uncut cam or go billet, if to maintain
a deacent ground circle..

 

[samiam44]

I was re-reading this the other day.

Cast iron is ~ 0.26 lb/in^3
Steel is ~ 0.285 lb/in^3

So the steel would be 9% heavier if you utilized the identical cross-sectional area. But steel has better tensile strength, so in theory you should be equal weight or lighter.

 

[whatever]

Camshafts are extremely difficult things.
Not only they need to have a profile, but they also need to harmonically balance the valvetrain, hence they might have quite odd closing ramps.

The Mercedes M103 uses highly assymetrical profiles. Which is beneficial.
Some local guys in Russia did 11-12 mm lift cams they say, I believe, re-welding. However, I also believe they have no idea of harmonics and assymetry. Maybe, I’m just being rude, haha.

But anyway, the OE cams are chilled cast iron and it is a GREAT material.
The best one you can get.

Cast Iron has graphite particles which help to lube as they absorb oil, being chilled cast make it also very hard and dense. Also it’s tribologically better as you can run normal steel against it.

If you change the cams to steel ones, for example, you have to use DLC coating or experimentally hardened surfaces (usually +10 to cam material). Tribology is significant if you want it to perform long term.

As for me, cams are important. But if I was to re-design M119 for performance, I’d re-do the intake as it is limiting it far out more. Being hot and small.

___
Added:

Ah, also due to the completely different nature of the cast iron (essentially being a composite material) and steel, a cast iron cam is much more rigid and it resists twisting. So timing is actually more accurate with iron cams. Steel cams get twisted on different RPMs in the same way as sway bars or driveshafts are twisted. So don’t underestimate cast iron. It is there for a number of reasons.

 

[NIIBE]

Camshafts are extremely difficult things.
Not only they need to have a profile, but they also need to harmonically balance the valvetrain, hence they might have quite odd closing ramps.

The Mercedes M103 uses highly assymetrical profiles. Which is beneficial.
Some local guys in Russia did 11-12 mm lift cams they say, I believe, re-welding. However, I also believe they have no idea of harmonics and assymetry. Maybe, I’m just being rude, haha.

But anyway, the OE cams are chilled cast iron and it is a GREAT material.
The best one you can get.

Cast Iron has graphite particles which help to lube as they absorb oil, being chilled cast make it also very hard and dense. Also it’s tribologically better as you can run normal steel against it.

If you change the cams to steel ones, for example, you have to use DLC coating or experimentally hardened surfaces (usually +10 to cam material). Tribology is significant if you want it to perform long term.

As for me, cams are important. But if I was to re-design M119 for performance, I’d re-do the intake as it is limiting it far out more. Being hot and small.

___
Added:

Ah, also due to the completely different nature of the cast iron (essentially being a composite material) and steel, a cast iron cam is much more rigid and it resists twisting. So timing is actually more accurate with iron cams. Steel cams get twisted on different RPMs in the same way as sway bars or driveshafts are twisted. So don’t underestimate cast iron. It is there for a number of reasons.

I had done with DLC coating for camshafts for genuine hydric lifters. i have been trying to make billet cam shaft with my profile with solid lifter, but still on going.

 

[chicky]

I had done with DLC coating for camshafts for genuine hydric lifters. i have been trying to make billet cam shaft with my profile with solid lifter, but still on going.

As the saying goes..."long time no hear" . I see that you have relocated from Japan. How is your other hobby of "show jumping horses"?

I hope all is well with you, stay safe

 

[whatever]

I had done with DLC coating for camshafts for genuine hydric lifters. i have been trying to make billet cam shaft with my profile with solid lifter, but still on going.

I’ve found BMW engines interesting recently.
M5 E60 and M3 E92 have radius top non-rotating hydraulic lifters.
Cam designer would know better. Radius followers allow higher cam accelerations (which is why rocker arms are also radius). A roller profile with a small roller may almost allow concave lobes - for extremely high accelerations.

Both hydraulic and solid lifter cam profiles are very different.

Hydraulic cam lobe has a constant acceleration of the profile - constant acceleration keeps the hydraulic lifter valve closed. If released, it’d depress the oil.

Solid lifter profile has constant velocity on the other hand.

You can get away with simpler profiles if you have a very light valve train (that includes everything).

Here’s a soviet video on general camshaft design and poly-dynamic profiles.

The last 1/3rd is what I’m talking about.
The case in the video is that a theoretic profile doesn’t work at higher speeds due to the deflections of moving components when exposed to higher forces. So they analyze and create a better profile to counter these deflections. This is exactly the same in the engine design. The closing ramps are very important as they need to calm down the valve train, so it won’t bump open from the seat after closing. It may not seem like a big problem in DOHC engines, but designing OHV cams is a lot more complicated as you have: lifters, pushrods, pushrod/rocker arm lash bolt, rocker arm w/without roller end, and normal valves, retainers, springs.

On the other hand real racing engines often never had the precision of street engines, The cams could have been so poorly designed, that they didn’t last longer than the race itself. Some 90s F1 engines were pretty rough.

 

[NIIBE]

As the saying goes..."long time no hear" . I see that you have relocated from Japan. How is your other hobby of "show jumping horses"?

I hope all is well with you, stay safe

Thank you for your reply. Yes now I am living in Thailand. sad thing is No 500E here but wondering to import CARNE and drive temporary.
Show Jumping is also facing very difficult problem in here cause of African Horse disease. but other things are everything be FIne!

Hope you and your family members are well!

Speed NIIIBE

 

[500AMM]

Camshafts are extremely difficult things.
... ... ... ...
___
Added:

Ah, also due to the completely different nature of the cast iron (essentially being a composite material) and steel, a cast iron cam is much more rigid and it resists twisting. So timing is actually more accurate with iron cams. Steel cams get twisted on different RPMs in the same way as sway bars or driveshafts are twisted. So don’t underestimate cast iron. It is there for a number of reasons.

Please let me correct that chilled cast iron is not a composite material, it is just an iron based material but with a much higher carbon content than "regular" steel, if something could be called regular. The higher carbon content and other amounts of the alloying elements - plus that the manufacturing method is casting, makes it to cast iron products. Here is some nice reading about chilled cast iron:
Chilled Cast Iron - an overview | ScienceDirect Topics

 

[bicylindrico]

So wish Catcams would provide M119 blanks as I own an R129 M119 that I would build if they made camshafts for them. I tried the regrind route with my M113 build but should have just built the engine that I wanted from the start considering how much I paid for the regrinds. Having control over all valve events is worth the money whereas regrinds have many limits.

✂️ Back on the road

17 seconds · Clipped by bicylindrico · Original video "Mercedes-Benz Hillbilly Hammer 2 Update 351 Cleveland intake Demon 650 Catcams Flowmaster M113 W124" b...

youtube.com

 

[gsxr]

How much were the Catcams M113 regrinds?

Someone will make custom M119 cams if you want, but it may cost a small fortune... at that point you gottta decide if it's better to invest in displacement instead of cams.

 

[bicylindrico]

How much were the Catcams M113 regrinds?

Someone will make custom M119 cams if you want, but it may cost a small fortune... at that point you gottta decide if it's better to invest in displacement instead of cams.

Regrinds were $700 and not from Catcams. Catcams new blanks were $1700. The Catcams required significantly more work but the end result was what I wanted from the start. Of course the M119 has twice as many cams

 

[gsxr]

Cool! Were the Catcams new blanks $1700 for both, or $1700 each ($3400 for both)?

I would expect the M119 new blanks to be in the ballpark of $1k each / $4k for a set.

 

[bicylindrico]

The set was $1700. I was at coil bind on the springs, interference with the retainer/valve seals and interference at the piston to valve. .490" valve lift, 244 degrees duration @ 1mm with a 108 degree LSA. I used COMP Cams Ford modular 4.6 valve springs and retainers. This engine is night and day compared to my factory engine with regrinds.

 

[Rouven036]

I will contact them (catcams) to ask for a 3.6 m104 recommendation. Same time will ask how much it would be to make M119 cams (over the amg 6L)