M119.960 camshaft specifications?

[Yuka]

Das anybody know what valve lift was on early m119 (199.960) engine? I find that after 1993 lift was redused.

 

[gsxr]

Re: M119 aftermarket camshafts

Das anybody know what valve lift was on early m119 (199.960) engine? I find that after 1993 lift was redused.

Jono measured a set for me years ago... assuming the numbers were accurate, the .960 had the lowest lift of any M119, even lower than the 93-up. We're only talking about a few tenths of a millimeter though.

c1L

 

[Yuka]

Re: M119 aftermarket camshafts

Very intresting but in file M119_1993_update.pdf May be something wrong?

 

[Yuka]

Re: M119 aftermarket camshafts



I think from that table from FSM is possibe to calculate lift, but I don't know how.

Add.
Ok I think deeper. We can calculate not in mm(but if we assume it linear prosess we can calculate, knowing that 1993-up is 8.9 mm) but in degree of crank rotation.
for 119.960 it will 180-25+35=190 it mean that from open to close it will 190 degree in term of crank rotation.
for 119.974 for those 1993 up it will 180-33+42=189 degree

8.9*190/189=8.94mm difference is 0.04mm but process is not linear.
Only what I may say is that on 119.960 intake valve is open little longer or little shorter if from close to open.

Add part 2.

I incorect calculate assume that intale valve start opening when exhaust just close
full cycle for 119.960 will 13+25=38 degree and need add 190 from previous from open to close 38+190=228 degree.
for 119.974 1993 up 11+33+189=233 degree.

8.9*228/233=8.7mm we have little less for 119.960 but if we add what mention in file that mean that inlet valve on 119.960 open and close more agressive that on 1993 up.

 

[gsxr]

Re: M119 aftermarket camshafts

You cannot determine lift from duration. The only way is to measure the lobes. Also, lift and duration are two separate items... you can have high lift with short duration, or vice-versa.

 

[Yuka]

Re: M119 aftermarket camshafts

You cannot determine lift from duration. The only way is to measure the lobes. Also, lift and duration are two separate items... you can have high lift with short duration, or vice-versa.

I fugure out this. but if we watch from airflow point of view they become connected or we may assume that they connected. Right?

 

[Yuka]

Re: M119 aftermarket camshafts

My theory why 119.960 must have more lift is that we need conpensate air loses when Mercedes add cat, more here

http://www.benzworld.org/forums/r129-sl-class/2027681-119-960-no-cat-no-oxygen.html

 

[gsxr]

Re: M119 aftermarket camshafts

My theory why 119.960 must have more lift is that we need conpensate air loses when Mercedes add cat, more here

http://www.benzworld.org/forums/r129-sl-class/2027681-119-960-no-cat-no-oxygen.html

119.960 cams are different, but they DO NOT have more lift. And, MB used the same camshafts for M119 engines both with and without catalysts.

 

[Yuka]

Re: M119 aftermarket camshafts

gsxr, I figure out your poin of view, but doc say different story. I see only one way to solve this problem, is or find spec or do measure of lobes.

 

[gsxr]

Re: M119 aftermarket camshafts

I already told you. Jono measured them. The .960 cams have less lift, not more lift.

.960 intake = 8.6mm
.970 intake = 9.5mm (1992)
.970 intake = 8.9mm (1993-up)

Exhaust lift is less than intake on all three versions.

 

[baviking1]

Re: M119 aftermarket camshafts

gsxr, I figure out your poin of view, but doc say different story. I see only one way to solve this problem, is or find spec or do measure of lobes.

Trust me dude; if ANYONE knows the specs here, it will be Dave, Jono, Clark, or GVZ. See above.......

 

[Yuka]

Re: M119 aftermarket camshafts

I also not a first time on drive seat.

One person may make error or engine already was modified before, many reason way one person may have wrong result. I see when in offical doc have number error, but all setences is too many.

 

[baviking1]

Re: M119 aftermarket camshafts

I also not a first time on drive seat.

One person may make error or engine already was modified before, many reason way one person may have wrong result. I see when in offical doc have number error, but all setences is too many.

I believe you Sir. I also know from experience Dave doesn't make mistakes when I comes to the M119 (not any I KNOW of anyway)......

 

[gsxr]

Re: M119 aftermarket camshafts

I measured the .97x cams personally and I stand by the numbers. I received the .960 measurements from Jono and his data appeared valid (i.e., his base circle numbers were extremely close to mine, so I believe his numbers are correct). Feel free to double-check the .960 lobe dimensions but seriously, there's no smoking gun here. MB made minor changes to the cam profiles due to the other changes to the motor (short deck, different intake manifolds, etc). All the 5.0 motors still made between 315-329hp per factory ratings.

 

[Yuka]

Re: M119 aftermarket camshafts

I take some investigation look http://www.neoriginal.ru/cat/mb/part__1_1_15M_119_974_44S_124_036/05

this give you only 2 variant of camshaft
1190500417 and 1190502817
if you google both of them you find that 1190502817 is use only in E60 in all years http://www.mbpartsworld.com/p/Mercedes__E-60-AMG/CAMSHAFT/7428707/1190502817.html

and 1190500417 for all engine as 5L w/o divide by years.

and now lets look at my engine http://www.neoriginal.ru/cat/mb/part__1_1_15M_119_960_515_129_066/05
this give you only one number 1190508401 and car 129.066 was also as AMG 6L with CIS-E system
what that mean is that on engine 119.960 in 5L and 6L was the same camshaft.

And all this is ok with M119_1993_updates.pdf even more it describe engines from 119.960 and later and dont describe engine 119.97x from 1992.

All in all you wrong in 2 ways:
1. There was no difference in camshaft in 119.97x from 1992 and later.
2. Lobes on 119.960 must be longer than on 119.97x

 

[gsxr]

Re: M119 aftermarket camshafts

*sigh*

and now lets look at my engine http://www.neoriginal.ru/cat/mb/part__1_1_15M_119_960_515_129_066/05
this give you only one number 1190508401 and car 129.066 was also as AMG 6L with CIS-E system
what that mean is that on engine 119.960 in 5L and 6L was the same camshaft.

This is incorrect. The FSM for the 119.960 AMG 6.0L engine specified "Intake and exhaust camshafts have a modified cam profile." The EPC does not always show all the parts used on early AMG engines:
http://www.w124performance.com/docs/mb/M119/AMG_500SL_6.0L_Intro.pdf

And all this is ok with M119_1993_updates.pdf even more it describe engines from 119.960 and later and dont describe engine 119.97x from 1992.

This document is describing the differences between the 1992 .97x engines, and the 1993-up .97x engines. It is not relevant to the .960 engine at all (or, the later .98x engines, which received different changes).

All in all you wrong in 2 ways:
1. There was no difference in camshaft in 119.97x from 1992 and later.
2. Lobes on 119.960 must be longer than on 119.97x

You can believe that all you want, but it still won't be true.

 

[Yuka]

Re: M119 aftermarket camshafts

Open file M119_1993_updates.pdf and read fist page carefully and you lose moment that EPC have info about E60, and have just one camshaft for all 119.974 engine for ALL years. This is inportant.

I am not intersed in AMG and don't want discuss this. A am not "sporty" guy.

 

[gsxr]

Re: M119 aftermarket camshafts

Open file M119_1993_updates.pdf and read fist page carefully and you lose moment that EPC have info about E60, and have just one camshaft for all 119.974 engine for ALL years. This is inportant.

There is not just one camshaft for the 119.974... I am not sure why you think that. This is well documented. IIRC, even the EPC shows different part numbers with an engine serial number break which corresponds with the changes between 1992 / 1993.

 

[Yuka]

Re: M119 aftermarket camshafts

http://www.neoriginal.ru/cat/mb/part__1_1_15M_119_974_44S_124_036/05

Give gust 2 numbers. one of for E60 another for all other.

Anyway it is no anwser for my first qestion about lift for 119.960

 

[Yuka]

Re: M119 aftermarket camshafts

I find some error with 119.960 in file M119 FSM camshaft specs.pdf write open ATDC with 25 degree, but in file M119.960_Mechanical.pdf write that 23 dergee.

 

[gsxr]

Re: M119 aftermarket camshafts

http://www.neoriginal.ru/cat/mb/part__1_1_15M_119_974_44S_124_036/05

Give gust 2 numbers. one of for E60 another for all other.

That is not the factory EPC. That is the Russian copy. It is incomplete and inaccurate. Get the full EPC.

Anyway it is no anwser for my first qestion about lift for 119.960

I already answered that question, but you didn't like what you heard. My advice would be obtain a set of .960 camshafts and measure them yourself.

 

[gsxr]

Das anybody know what valve lift was on early m119 (199.960) engine? I find that after 1993 lift was redused.

Forgot to mention: The 119.960 engine was only produced from 1990-1992 (USA model years). The 1993-up changes cannot apply to the .960 because it was already out of production.

 

[gsxr]

Different part numbers = different camshafts.


Standard 5.0L camshafts:
119-050-84-01 = 119.960 left intake camshaft

119-050-04-17 = 119.974 left intake camshaft, 1992 (to engine #6122 USA, #5781 Europe)
119-050-28-17 = 119.974 left intake camshaft, 1993-up (from engine #6123 USA, #5782 Europe)

119-050-28-17 = 119.980 left intake camshaft



AMG 6.0L camshafts:
HWA-119-050-01-01 = 119.960 left intake camshaft, AMG 6.0L

HWA-119-050-18-01 = 119.974 left intake camshaft, AMG 6.0L

HWA-119-050-30-01 = 119.980 left intake camshaft, AMG 6.0L

 

[J-Sauce]

I also measured two sets of M119.97x camshafts next to each other. One set from a 92 and one set from a 95. I do not have the figures in front of me, but there was a distinct difference in lift.

 

[gsxr]

I also measured two sets of M119.97x camshafts next to each other. One set from a 92 and one set from a 95. I do not have the figures in front of me, but there was a distinct difference in lift.

Yep. I own both 1992 engines and 1993-up (119.974) and the cams are absolutely, without question, different. Including different code numbers to identify them.

AFAICT, all .960 motors (5.0L) used the same cam, there was no change in the .960 cams mid-production. However, Jono is the expert on the .960 engine... I've never owned one.