Interest in Group Buy of Performance Camshafts?

[Christian_K]

I will most likely have to opportunity to provide sets of 4 camshafts for our beloved M119 Engine if there is enough interest.
They will have the Profile that the infamous Mercedes Tuner Hagmann once offered. The Power-Gain was Dyno verified 30HP (DIN) in the 5L and around 20HP (DIN) for the 4.2L engines.

Minimum Order quantity will be around 10 sets. I will also try to find a good quality vendor for fitting valve springs.
All this is now only in the planning phase pre-pre-alpah so to speak, so if there is enough interest i will give the order to do the CAD drawing for them this winter.
They will be produced in a cheap wage country, so either china, malaysia, turkey, india, etc etc. There are many companies that do infact produce OE camshafts for car manufacturers world-wide and i'm now in contact with them.

Quality will be either todays stock OEM (cast iron and hardened) or machined from forged steel of good quality.

 

[gsxr]

1) I'm not sure how much interest there will be unless someone can post a before & after dyno graph comparing them to stock 5.0L cams (even better if the graph specifies if the baseline/stock engine is 1992, or 1993-up, as the factory cams are different).

2) Chinese cams will be a tough sale to the M119 crowd.

3) Estimated price...?

 

[Christian_K]

1) Thats why i ask. Given the fact that Hagmann himself written me emails in which is said he can proof the power-gain on a Dyno anytime and that a Guy in Germany put them in his E60AMG and said there was judging by his Butt Dyno at least 30HP more, it should be a fact.

2) Why? Does not matter where produced, if the correct machinerey is there, ISO/QS-Certificate, etc. Labour costs make the price these days sadly.

3) Depends on various factors. Machined out of billet steel or cast iron. Costs of CAD Bureu/Laser-measuring of stock cams, etc.

I just ask first... ;-)
If the cam price and CAD-Drawing/Laser-measuring will be "cheap" or "affordable" for me, i will let them be produced after a initial prototype set and then sell them over ebay if there is not much interest here ;-)

 

[gsxr]

1a) Hearsay claims are still hearsay. I want to see a dyno sheet. Or send me a set of cams and I'll put them on the dyno myself, since nobody else seems to be able to do that AND produce a printout of the results.

1b) If it's 30hp gain up top but with a significant loss of torque off idle, that's not good. And the ONLY way to determine this is with a dyno graph from 2000rpm to redline, for stock cams vs aftermarket cams. Sorry, butt-dyno claims don't fly here.

2) It matters because far too many low-quality products come out of China. I don't think anyone with an M119 will be real anxious to be the beta tester for Chinese camshafts. I'd rather pay a USA manufacturer (i.e., Comp Cams, or Crane Cams) twice as much for a known bulletproof product... that is, if they would be willing to make them - I have no idea.

3) Why not go with dBilas regrinds? They said they could provide duplicates of the Hagmann regrinds, correct?

 

[quicksilver500]

Second that about Chinese manufacturers. ISO doesn't mean shit, its really just about how good you can trick the auditors, or buy them off in the case of China. Also, they will tell you they are using a 4140 steel and use pig iron and disappear right after the order is complete. Companies cycle over there so quickly it will make your head spin. As always, you get what you pay for. SKILL and REPUTATION drive costs in technical manufacturing.

Comp cams can do all the development, they are a big company but still operate like a small one when it comes to customers. They do tons of custom jobs. I posted the link to their Ford 5L cams on your other thread, and they are billet cams made in USA for $1600. So if you did a run of 10 maybe you could get a custom job for 2000 or 2500? I wouldn't mind taking them a motor to put on their spintron/dyno if someone would pay for their development time . REALLY cool operation up there. They are in Memphis, TN.

-Mike

 

[Christian_K]

Also, they will tell you they are using a 4140 steel and use pig iron and disappear right after the order is complete. Companies cycle over there so quickly it will make your head spin. As always, you get what you pay for. SKILL and REPUTATION drive costs in technical manufacturing.

No, i will only get in contact with reputable companies doing camshafts for over 5 years. Trust me im not an average dumbass, im pretty smart and will evaluate everything ;-)

Comp cams can do all the development, they are a big company but still operate like a small one when it comes to customers. They do tons of custom jobs. I posted the link to their Ford 5L cams on your other thread, and they are billet cams made in USA for $1600. So if you did a run of 10 maybe you could get a custom job for 2000 or 2500? I wouldn't mind taking them a motor to put on their spintron/dyno if someone would pay for their development time :smile:. REALLY cool operation up there. They are in Memphis, TN.

Way to expensive. Price aimed with Valve Springs way below 1500€. Even hagmanns Price for 1400€ was to expensive in my opinion.
So no, not interested.

1a) Hearsay claims are still hearsay. I want to see a dyno sheet. Or send me a set of cams and I'll put them on the dyno myself, since nobody else seems to be able to do that AND produce a printout of the results.

1b) If it's 30hp gain up top but with a significant loss of torque off idle, that's not good. And the ONLY way to determine this is with a dyno graph from 2000rpm to redline, for stock cams vs aftermarket cams. Sorry, butt-dyno claims don't fly here.

2) It matters because far too many low-quality products come out of China. I don't think anyone with an M119 will be real anxious to be the beta tester for Chinese camshafts. I'd rather pay a USA manufacturer (i.e., Comp Cams, or Crane Cams) twice as much for a known bulletproof product... that is, if they would be willing to make them - I have no idea.

3) Why not go with dBilas regrinds? They said they could provide duplicates of the Hagmann regrinds, correct?

For sure it was planned that you get a initial Set and run it on the dyno. ;-)
I still have the email from Mr. Hagmann. He said NO LOSS AT IDLE, NO TORQUE LOSS. The cams were designed to give equal powergain from idle to 6000RPM, thats why he has chosen a asymetric profile. Its probably the best Profile from all worlds, so to speak.

Again, i will only be in contact with very good companies, will find the best ones and only care about quality. And no order will be placed before i received a first prototype Set and have that fully measured, etc. Forget the word "China" in this case. I also found a laaaarge cam company in Turkey. There are tons of em found on well known Portals.

I wont use regrinds in my engine at all, read much to bad things. Especially in DBilas own Forums. This is fixed for me sorry, so only NEW cams with a good Profile will be used by me. If your not interested, and rather would go with Regrinds, thats fine Dave.
I don't mind.

 

[gsxr]

I'm still interested... just concerned about the vendor quality, for the reasons Mike clearly outlined above. I'm not necessarily that interested in regrinds, I too would prefer fresh blanks, but the cost tends to be soooo much lower with regrinds.

Q1: Do you have a set of original Hagmann cams (for 5.0L, I presume) that can be measured / reverse engineered?

Q2: Do you have the matching EPROM for the cams, to maximize the power gain?

 

[samiam44]

worse cam I EVER purchased was for a 617 out of turkey. Wouldn't work and the elustrous "OEM" supplier wouldn't make good on it. Assured me it must have fit a different motor.. yea sure that's why it's stamped OM617 but the journals are 0.100 inch to small. Proper metal formula can only be post determined by lab analysis. You can check surface hardness on every cam easily with rockwell hardness tester on a non-lifter surface.

I thought Hagmann combination came with a chip? Do you have access to copying 4.2, 5.0 and 6.0 liter Hagmann modified chips?

Are these new old stock cams or are they used which you will be copying? Are you going to stay with beehive/elliptical wire valve springs or go with traditional coils? How much pressure @ 10.4mm? What is the approximate duration of intake and exhaust.

Need a new set of lifters too....

If you get a profile, I'd be happy to do the kinematics to determine peak acceleration and velocity.

I didn't think ppl made cams regularly out of 4140. Thought it was a different alloy?

Michael

 

[quicksilver500]

Its probably different than 4140, just using that as an example. I think people use heat treated 8000 series steel. But who knows, maybe 4000 series hardened with DLC is acceptable! I think if you coated stock lifters and cams with DLC you would pick up power from < friction.

There more than just making the lobes bigger and getting the angle right. Getting vibration minimized, surface treatment right, etc. Stock cams are cast with a core right? So that's a totally different material formulation than a billet material.

-Mike

 

[Jelmer]

I'm interested. And after meeting Christian, I can vouch for him that he won't pick the first company he sees; he's already busy preparing, reading, contacting, etc. That fact they are produced in China is only to keep the labor costs down, since that will be the biggest part of the price.

We'd been discussing this during the weekend, and also spoke about the EPROM bit. He has some arguments on why the EPROM won't be needed (bigger openings -> sucking more air in -> MAF detects this -> computer compensates by injecting more fuel).

 

[superstar]

1a) 3) Why not go with dBilas regrinds? They said they could provide duplicates of the Hagmann regrinds, correct?

+1

 

[quicksilver500]

I think reason the MAP/MAF won't totally take care of new cams is the volumetric efficiency of the engine changes overall, and could change quite a bit at different points. So the computer needs to know that to optimize use. Also injection points change depending on cam profile. It would be sweet to get a hagmann chip duplicated.

 

[500AMM]

First of all - a big thank to Christian for taking this initiative!

Chinese, or low cost country production doesn't scare me, as long as it is a experienced and reputable company, and the guarantee is in place for the entire product and quality. Reputable companies tends to excist for some time anyway. But I would like to see the material certificate and something about the heat treatment and surface properties. Just as Michael says, hardness testing can be carried out to get an indication of the wear resistance and durability.

I'm a bit more concerned about the A/F compensation..

However, I am in for a set if a proven cam profile is selected.

Thanks.

 

[samiam44]

Hagmann EPROM might still be available? Would check...

 

[gsxr]

I think reason the MAP/MAF won't totally take care of new cams is the volumetric efficiency of the engine changes overall, and could change quite a bit at different points. So the computer needs to know that to optimize use. Also injection points change depending on cam profile. It would be sweet to get a hagmann chip duplicated.

Exactly. I believe the LH adaptation can compensate for changes in airflow, but it assumes stock camshafts, meaning it's expecting a particular shape for the power curve. It can move the entire curve up or down, but it most likely won't compensate for a change in the shape of the curve, which is what you'd get with aftermarket cams. The Hagmann cams allegedly move the top end of the power curve up, while not (significantly) changing the bottom end of the curve. Assuming that is true, there would potentially be some power gained by tweaking the EPROM.

The problem is, nobody on this forum knows how to do that. Ideally we would get a Hagmann EPROM designed for the specific camshaft and duplicate that. I could do this if someone could send me the original chip (and let's hope it's not copy-protected!). Otherwise we'd need to get Bernard's buddy that burns custom EPROMs to whip up a special chip, and hope that it works better than the stock chip... dyno tests would be required to prove if his custom chip works or not.

 

[Jelmer]

I would be willing to jump into this. If I'd had a stock EPROM, I could get started and see what this is all about...

 

[Christian_K]

Hi,

Q1: Do you have a set of original Hagmann cams (for 5.0L, I presume) that can be measured / reverse engineered?

Q2: Do you have the matching EPROM for the cams, to maximize the power gain?

Q1: No, but its not needed. Im in contact with a little german company which designs customs camshafts for race teams. They need a set of original cams (provided by me) and i give them the wanted duration, valve-lift, etc. So they told me this is a piece of cake for them, since they dont need to do all the evaluations with the detailed engine data and my desired power-band/features, since the Hagmann Profile is already proven to work with our engines.
Then they deliver me detailed blueprints/drawing which the company that later produces them, needs.

Q2: No, i dont believe its needed.
Hagmann never answered me in detail WHY this is needed at all.. They only answered me it "can" be done and pointed toward the benefits that the top-speed governor will be removed by them, back then.
Dbilas said to me one phone and mail that NO ECU adjustment is needed since we have a MAF and a O2 Sensor and our LH is self-learning.

Hardness of cams: One of the companies that produce custom cams from steel billet already answered me that their Rockwell hardness is HRC 55-62. Is this good?

Lifters: The Lifters only need to be changed when there is any (even very little) sign of wear on their tops. In my case in both engines there is NONE (both are replaced already recently). In the blown one, they are brand new MB and have only 45km ran.

Valve-Springs: Regarding Valve-Springs. Just like Hagmann AND Dbilas have told/listed, for the early 5L engines with double valve-springs and a default valve-lift of 9.5mm, for the desired 10.4mm is no change needed, but still recommend. All later type engines with reduced default valve-lift of 8.xmm and single valve-springs however, stronger springs are STRONGLY needed. Would be good if i'd have some data to ask all the vendors of valve-springs what data/stiffness we need for our desired 10.4mm valve-lift.

I would be willing to jump into this. If I'd had a stock EPROM, I could get started and see what this is all about...

Well Jelmer, its basic Hex-Code on the chip. We need to translate what specific code blocks stand for and even then we need a true engine specialist to adjust those values properly.

In Detail about the ECU adjustment.:
I understand your guys point and we really should discuss this in absolute detail until we come to a final conclusion and IF the result is that we really NEED a rewritten ECU, i will get in contact with Bernard and ask what it cost to produce lets say 5-10 pieces of the same ECU for our 5L Plant with that cam profile. Hopefully it will be lot cheaper than what i expect now (Bernard never speaks/spoken about money "numbers" with me, so i dont know what his ECU guy wants for a custom ECU).

Also we should consider this...
At 6000RPM all 4 Strokes of the engine need 20ms in total, basic math. We have confirmed by Dave and others, that at WOT and at high RPMs the car already injects up to 19ms long. This translates as to that the Injectors are ALMOST constantly open DURING ALL 4 STROKES already.
I wonder how much sense it makes to adjust the injection points there at all? If anyway, then only low/medium RPM on part-throttle ranges could benefit from that i suppose. But we should reaaaaallllyyyy seriously need to work that out.

 

[gsxr]

[the EPROM is] basic Hex-Code on the chip. We need to translate what specific code blocks stand for and even then we need a true engine specialist to adjust those values properly.

This is easier said than done. If I could figure out what specific code blocks stand for, shoot, I could make the adjustments myself. The problem is, without a secret decoder ring, there's no way to tell.

At 6000RPM all 4 Strokes of the engine need 20ms in total, basic math. We have confirmed by Dave and others, that at WOT and at high RPMs the car already injects up to 19ms long. This translates as to that the Injectors are ALMOST constantly open DURING ALL 4 STROKES already. I wonder how much sense it makes to adjust the injection points there at all? If anyway, then only low/medium RPM on part-throttle ranges could benefit from that i suppose. But we should reaaaaallllyyyy seriously need to work that out.

And that was ~19ms on a 5.0L engine. And we know from Niibe's (and Bondavi's) experiments that a 5.0L chip limits power to 5.0L levels when used on a 6.0L engine. So obviously it's not just the MAF and O2 signals making the LH adapt. It would be interesting to see what the injection time is on a 6.0L at WOT. If it's still ~19ms then we have a really good mystery on our hands.

 

[gerryvz]

Indeed, more than a few folks (myself, run.exe, and others) have attempted to delve into the secrets of the M119 EPROM in the past. It's not easy, nor for the amateur....

 

[Bondavi]

Christian, in your research for possible vendors, check out Motor Works in San Diego:

http://motorworkspromach.com/

Ask for Sergio.

As I understand, they have the CNC facilities to produce cams from scratch AND regrinds.

Henric (48hp) of AMG Classics was able to offer solid lifter cams for a very reasonable price using said facility. Check into it. Buy USA!

 

[samiam44]

Christian,

You want the camshaft to be within a few hardness points of the lift. You'd need to do a hardness test on a lifter and then add a a few. 55-62 is in the right range. At 55 you might be wearing cams out quickly. I have a friend whom has been saving damaged cams for years and going to do a field-investigation. I can push on him over the next month to take some hardness test.
I hear only talk of 5.0 liters. How about the 6.0 liter boys?
I'm not completely understanding the milisecond of 19 at WOT. How does the 6.0 liter with 7000 rpm redline do it?? Something must not be understood here- and I believe the supercharger modification still uses stock injectors. You cannot only have 5% more injector capacity and get 500+ hp versus the stock 322. 105% of 322 is ~340 hp. All 6.0 liters are above that..

48 hp for solid lifter cams? Not to muddy the waters, but I though Hagmann had claimed 370 hp from his 5.0 liters with the cams/chip/porting. If you talk with anyone about solid-lifter cams, I'm just curious on if they are using VW style shims on top of the buckets or the Jaguar style which fits between the bucket and valve stem. What type of adjustment period? I seem to remember most in the 15,000 mile range...? Did bernard do hydraulic or solid lifters?

Valve spring you want the minimum required not to have valve bounce or float with a little margin of safety. So that is very dependent on the profile. Are ppl planning on removing heads with this project? If so, I would highly recommend port matching and getting swirl flow intake valves which are 39mm. Of course, that adds cost...


Michael

 

[gsxr]

"48hp" is the forum user name of Henric. It's a reference to his first car I believe, a VW with 48hp. Nothing to do with camshafts.

Hagmann did claim ~370hp from the 5.0 with their cams, springs, EPROM, port work, and possibly some other tweaks. NO word on torque though, however it would be nowhere near 6.0 torque.

Remember that solid lifter cams require completely different valves, along with different valve springs, and lifters. I personally wouldn't bother as that is somewhat rarified specialty territory that very, very, very few people will be interested in.

I expect that almost nobody will be removing their cylinder heads to install the cams. Most people would not even want to swap springs if it could be avoided. If the 93-up engines with single conical springs absolutely cannot be used (do we really know for sure? why are those so terrible?) that will further limit the interest as only the early engines would allow a straight cam swap.

I'm not sure that moving up to the 39mm valve will do much on a 5.0L engine. On a 6.0 yes, and we know both RENNtech and Brabus did that, but on a 5.0 the ROI is probably nil.

 

[Christian_K]

You want the camshaft to be within a few hardness points of the lift. You'd need to do a hardness test on a lifter and then add a a few. 55-62 is in the right range. At 55 you might be wearing cams out quickly. I have a friend whom has been saving damaged cams for years and going to do a field-investigation. I can push on him over the next month to take some hardness test.

The cam planning company i'm now in contact with, also told me that many many aftermarket cams are bad designed and thats why some of them wear out way to fast. They offer to check that Hagmann profile with their own developed cam-software, that simulates also wear on the computer. However i then would have to measure all parts inside the cylinder-head for that or send them a pack of springs, a valve, the spring-tables (correct term?), a lifter or even better the whole cylinder head, but this will be costly.

They also can make a different cam-design which can work with the single coil-springs from the later engines aswell, but if we'd go that route and do a "universal" performance camshaft-set for all M119 Folks out there, the planning will be costly. We talking about a couple of 1000 Euros here, and i'm personally not going to spend that on my own. Also, Valve-Lift might be limited that way and performance-gain will be lower (which i personally don't like).

I wonder what is so bad about a valve-spring change if the people will get a whole Set Steel cams with Springs for probably below 1500$/€ ? Well yes they probably have to pay a shop a few 100 bucks to do the swap...But is this so bad?
What will shops quote for a valve-spring change on the M119?

do we really know for sure? why are those so terrible?

The cam planning company can check that too, im also wondering. But would add cost as ive written above.
But if both Hagmann and Dbilas said the later engines strongly need stronger valve-springs, they probably tested it and know for sure.

Hagmann did claim ~370hp from the 5.0 with their cams, springs, EPROM, port work, and possibly some other tweaks. NO word on torque though, however it would be nowhere near 6.0 torque.

Remember that solid lifter cams require completely different valves, along with different valve springs, and lifters. I personally wouldn't bother as that is somewhat rarified specialty territory that very, very, very few people will be interested in. I'm not sure that moving up to the 39mm valve will do much on a 5.0L engine. On a 6.0 yes, and we know both RENNtech and Brabus did that, but on a 5.0 the ROI is probably nil.

I completely agree. For me it would be just a cam change and probably when i combine it with my other pair of heads, that i will port/rework, that i will add fitting valve-springs aswell.

As for the power ratings...Dblias with their offered symmetrical 260°/10.3mm lift Design said 20HP/20NM gain without any other change than just swapping cams. Hagmann said 30HP but no Torque numberrs. Max HP on the Hagmann Design is near the stock max-hp RPM (~5900RPM), so i also assume 30NM/30HP more for the Hagmanns without any other change (maybe ECU).
Yes with head rework (port/portmatch and polish intake, outtake, combustion chamber) they found 370HP on the Dyno for a 5L but no Torque rating said. Maybe a overall gain of 50NM, so from 480NM -> 530NM - your butt and your 0-60 ratings will notice, haha.

 

[gsxr]

...or send them ... the whole cylinder head, but this will be costly.

It would be interesting to see what a US company could do if we sent them a complete cylinder head. Used heads are available for ~$300 USD or so. Then of course there's the question of which to send... early or late style (dual spring or single)?

They also can make a different cam-design which can work with the single coil-springs from the later engines aswell, but if we'd go that route and do a "universal" performance camshaft-set for all M119 Folks out there, the planning will be costly. We talking about a couple of 1000 Euros here, and i'm personally not going to spend that on my own. Also, Valve-Lift might be limited that way and performance-gain will be lower (which i personally don't like).

I think it depends how much performance gain would be lost. If we're talking maybe 5hp, pfffft, it would make more sense to go with the universal design that works with all factory valve springs. Besides, the extra lift may not have much effect with stock intake ports. Plan on very, very few people (if any!) spending the money to pull the heads and port/polish them.

I wonder what is so bad about a valve-spring change if the people will get a whole Set Steel cams with Springs for probably below 1500$/€ ? Well yes they probably have to pay a shop a few 100 bucks to do the swap... But is this so bad? What will shops quote for a valve-spring change on the M119?

The labor just to swap the cams is significant... about 10 hours book time. Swapping valve springs would add another 5-10 hours labor. Shop labor in the USA averages about $75/hr. The spring swap would likely add $500-$750 labor plus the cost of 32 (or 64?) springs, and new valve seals while it's apart. This is not a DIY project for most people unless they want to buy the factory valve spring tools for ~$750 or so. Again - most people would be on the fence just with the cam swap, requiring a spring change might cut the number of interested people in half. I smell a poll coming soon.

The cam planning company can check that too, im also wondering. But would add cost as ive written above. But if both Hagmann and Dbilas said the later engines strongly need stronger valve-springs, they probably tested it and know for sure.

I thikn Hagmann told you that when you were emailing them, but dBilas never said anything on their website, and their email to me (pasted in the other thread) didn't mention it either. If they are still selling these cams, I guess you could get in touch with them and see what they say?

 

[samiam44]

Christian,

FYI, Crane cams perfered alloy was 8620. If they use cast iron billets you can increase the surface hardness by nitrating to Rc55-60.
Found this on the web which is a test of a ford coyote camshaft:
Camshaft- 43 RC
Camshaft Bearing Journal- 43 RC
Sprocket Hub- 53 RC
Cam Lobes- 62 RC

Michael

 

[Christian_K]

Ok please find a place or a way to get a newer style cylinder head WITH Valve-springs. In german ebay they start at 400€ without any cams or springs/valves.
I will use my old Block then, bolt the head on and measure everything they require with some gauges i will buy. IF they can make us a cam that works on both valve-spring designs and give at least expected 25HP (maybe the valves need to stay longer open to compensate for lower valve lift - sacrificing some idle quality even more - i dont mind), i'm happy with it.
But again this will be costly to let a cam be designed by them and many times wear and stuff gets calculated by their computers. I'm expecting around 2-3000€ here just for getting the design. Who is paying for that? With the Hagmann Design known, it will be much cheaper (in the 500€ range).

So i need your help. Or Dave you can measure all Things at one of your engine. But thats a lot of stuff they are asking. Need TDC/BDC Points and whole Piston lift directly measured through sparkplug hole on a hundredth of a millimeter, same for stuff like lifter weight, lifter diameter, height, same for valves, valve-springs (there you even need to tell the spring-constant, max-compression height, whatever) etc etc etc etc. Lots of stuff to measure, but saves us money. Need to use a very good measure-gauge with a tripod/stand.

But again regarding the valve-springs... i see it this way - they are in our cars since at least 17 years, even in Bernards 6L documentary one was broken, so they definitely don't last forever even with mild stock parts.
Now with even more force added towards them by a performance cam, i really wonder if they will live long enough and wont break. I somehow have a bed feeling with that.
Maybe its advisable anyway to replace them, just for the sake of security...

 

[quicksilver500]

Christian

Any progress on your cam experiments?

-Mike

 

[samiam44]

Too bad we cannot get some aggressive cams ground. The original 4 valve experts was cosworth.

Man how about a manifold and cam set.....

Seriously...anyone thought about contacting them?

 

[Christian_K]

Well i lost interest in doing this. I dont have the financial ressources to do a initial run of multiple sets.
Also today you can get cars with much higher performance levels that even a 6.4L Brabus M119 could do, for relatively low money and can mod the shit out of them for low $$$.

I will maybe do a cam regrind next or in 2 years with some head work, but that will be it from my side.

 

[Jackasic]

I have a good source for cams, they probably be billet steel instead of chill cast, as the blanks probably aren't available any more. Jono loaned me a set of stock cams, just need a head to send over to my cam grinder also. We can do sets under 10, but to be honest, would be surprised is the cost is over 3k for 4 cams. I have to call them tomorrow about some other projects, I'll check and see what they say.

 

[jouniu]

265/10.5 for intake, 260/9.5 for exhaust

set of thesse cams £1900, if more than 4 in same order then £1440 /set? anyone intrested?
Material EN40B Nitriding Steel

I asked this from Newman cams UK, AFAIK its products have good reputation.

 

[gsxr]

Without dyno runs showing power gains before/after, and details as to what modifications are needed (i.e. need to replace valve springs, and if so on 93-up single-spring engines only or 90-92 dual-springs engines too? Etc.)... I doubt anyone is going to risk ~$2500 USD without more info.

 

[samiam44]

I thought Hagmman had a chip which went with the cams to achieve the increase in power.


I would want a high lift cam similar to the Renntech 10 or 11 mm cam.


Micahel

 

[gsxr]

Details are in the Hagmann thread. Hagmann claimed twice the power gain with their chip, but there were still gains without it.

I'm not sure if increased lift is a magic bullet. Duration may provide similar gains, without headaches that come with replacing 32 valve springs, or having the heads pulled to get the spring pockets machined deeper like AMG did on the E60 engine.

 

[Maui]

Lift might sound meaner at the stop light.

 

[modzona]

Make it sound like a WRC car and spit flames on gearshifts!

 

[jouniu]

I visit the local engine machinery shop and I am going to have re-grinded cams. spec is intake 260/10.5, exhaust 255/10.4, total cost is below 500 euros, I think it is reasonable.

 

[gsxr]

Will you get it on the dyno before & after?

 

[jouniu]

Will you get it on the dyno before & after?

Not only for the cams. I am rebuiding whole engine, 5.6 conversion etc. It is pointless to just swap cams, those are just one "enabler" for higher performance.

 

[gsxr]

Bummer. That way, you can't tell what the power gain was from the cams.