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Camshaft Regrind Thread

Not sure I'm understanding all this thread now..

Jono- for the RAT rod, I would suggest removing the Cam advance like Mercedes did when they raced. They reduced valve train weight by 45% !! That's probably 20 hp=0) Chilled cast iron's choice as a high production makes sense. I'm sure the design can be optimized to be weight neutral or lighter...
with other materials.

Remember too, MB racing engines were NiSik plated as that has less friction and they got more hp. I want 11+ mm cams and willing to do valve springs and valves with porting and head mods for the lift.

Very cool to know about Dbilas Christian! Never knew .. bet they did the Renntech cams too. Most of RT's stuff seems to be sourced from the same places as AMG. I think I was reading that the M120 or M119 were joint developed. I'd love to know what they can do- if they had cam blanks.


Michael
 
On the WOT modules, the adaptation does affect the WOT fuel curve. I did dyno runs with the normal adaptation (say, 1.03) and then reset adaptation to 1.000 and did another dyno pull... same day, same dyno, 20 minutes apart. There was not a significant change in power, HOWEVER, the AFR changed... it was leaner across the entire RPM range with the 1.000 adaptation. Again, there was not a big change in power produced but the adaptation values absolutely do affect WOT fuel enrichment.


:v8:

:plusone:
Excellent point/info, Gixxer! Most people miss the entire concept of adaptation via the oxygen sensor. It is there precisely to alter all of the "open loop" parameters that are not directly controlled by the oxygen sensor. It is exactly things like WOT enrichment that adaptation is there to adjust. When the oxygen sensor is in charge, it's in charge. Adaptation is there to tweak the mixture for all those conditions where it is not. Conceptually, that's the only reason it exists...
:klink:
 
It's a shame we can't get get cast iron blanks at a reasonable cost. I'm not interested in a heavy steel cam either... the iron cams are already damned heavy! Makes me wonder if Dbilas were also making cams for RENNtech back in the mid-1990's...

:scratchchin:
 
Not sure I'm understanding all this thread now..
Very cool to know about Dbilas Christian! Never knew .. bet they did the Renntech cams too. Most of RT's stuff seems to be sourced from the same places as AMG. I think I was reading that the M120 or M119 were joint developed. I'd love to know what they can do- if they had cam blanks.


Michael
Yes thread got cluttered... but its important information here. I love it :-)
I have no idea if they made Renntech cams, i did not saw all M119 engine invoices. There were some larger Folders full of M119 engine related data and invoices and we were also looking there for the profiles of AMG cams. Even the AMG Prototype M119 cams End 80s and 1990s were listed there, all their profiles, test results, the whole research and development, whatever... I would love to have these folders at hand at my home. Probably a nice read.

EDIT: ohh forgot that...
I want 11+ mm cams and willing to do valve springs and valves with porting and head mods for the lift.
With 11mm+ cams you run into some issues... Piston to valve clearance, probably you need deeper valve pockets on the pistons. Many times removal and reassembly of the heads, urghh. Also idle will depending on the profile be maybe crap, idk. Well and like i said, you need to push the valve-guides down further into the intake/exhaust runners by approx 0.50-1.00mm, and/or do machining with the valvespring/tappet bore.
.
:plusone:
Excellent point/info, Gixxer! Most people miss the entire concept of adaptation via the oxygen sensor. It is there precisely to alter all of the "open loop" parameters that are not directly controlled by the oxygen sensor. It is exactly things like WOT enrichment that adaptation is there to adjust. When the oxygen sensor is in charge, it's in charge. Adaptation is there to tweak the mixture for all those conditions where it is not. Conceptually, that's the only reason it exists...
:klink:
Actually the O2 sensore is PRIMARILY there to keep a perfect Lambda1 / AF 14.7:1 during closed loop with short-term and long-term fuel trims. That is their true purpose. So the idea, that rumor that the O2-based adaption values do not alter the WOT-Maps on WOT-Enrichment enabled M119 LH ECUs, is fair enough. And Bernard told me its a fixed map, so both the none WOT-enrichment enabled and the WOT-enrichment enabled cars have to be tuned on the dyno/street.
I tend to believe him as he and his Dr.Prof. Guy (that by the way teaches engine development at a nearby college/academy) that does the LH tunes for him, did them for IIRC AMG/Brabus and others, sounds good in my ears. Also the postive tune Results on the M119 engines i heard of in the german Forums, sounding good to my ears. See here for example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oA8_WRmW5I4

It's a shame we can't get get cast iron blanks at a reasonable cost. I'm not interested in a heavy steel cam either... the iron cams are already damned heavy! Makes me wonder if Dbilas were also making cams for RENNtech back in the mid-1990's...

:scratchchin:
Yes, trust me if Bernard had the money to buy these many blanks for a new series and he would know that there is a market out there for like 500 sets of M119 cams, he would instantly pull the trigger. Yes of course even he is looking for possibilities as his stock is empty and the 6L cams at Mercedes for IIRC currently 4000€+VAT wont last forever. He said there are just a few sets left...
 
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I'll wait to see what Jono finds out... but the reason why mb cams were chilled iron castings (not cast iron), is it is more cost effective in large volume. In today's time- there are steel CNC which can work. They will not be compatible with *stock* lifters.

I believe if you read the SAE papers on the M119 race motors, you will find MB used Steel and not cast iron. They can be made strong and light or lighter than cast iron. Just a structural engineer whom makes things light for a living talking.

I suggest all to read "https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camshaft".

I understand the implications on valve lift completely Christian and do know Renntech did them. \


Remember CNC was not available 10-15 years ago for low volume.

Michael
 
"Fresh chilled cast iron blanks of course, like available through Mahle during the production time and some years later after the M119s time. The blanks getting grind too, the only difference is that you can keep the stock base circle.
Our stock M119 cams are also made from the very same chilled cast iron blanks as the tuners cams, just with another profile. I wonder if Mahle also did the grind on the Stock cams for Mercedes and delivered the finished cams for assembly on the motor line? "

About the Blanks, it raises a couple of Q. Std M119 blanks 4.2/5.0 seems obvious, the blanks for AMG are also obvious as the logo is cast into them, right?
very interesting to know is, what marks are there on, say Brabus, Hagman cams, maybe they used the AMG blanks?

Maybe someone ( Bernhard ) should lift one of his valvecovers off, just curious! Roger
 
About the Blanks, it raises a couple of Q. Std M119 blanks 4.2/5.0 seems obvious, the blanks for AMG are also obvious as the logo is cast into them, right? very interesting to know is, what marks are there on, say Brabus, Hagman cams, maybe they used the AMG blanks?

Maybe someone ( Bernhard ) should lift one of his valvecovers off, just curious! Roger
My early RENNtech 6L cams had no markings indicating AMG or RENNtech etc. Nothing cast into the cams, not even version code numbers etched or inked. They appeared to be "standard" blanks which were machined to RENNtech specs, but with nothing to identify them otherwise. These cams could not be installed via "pins" as the factory manual shows, they have to be used with adjustable sprockets and set via dial gauge. Ridiculous amount of work, I always thought it was lame they didn't drill the correct locating hole so the cams would be degreed properly when pinned.

:oldman:
 

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Christian,

Is that 1mm off the base circle radius or diameter?

Jim
1mm in Radius.

My early RENNtech 6L cams had no markings indicating AMG or RENNtech etc. Nothing cast into the cams, not even version code numbers etched or inked. They appeared to be "standard" blanks which were machined to RENNtech specs, but with nothing to identify them otherwise. These cams could not be installed via "pins" as the factory manual shows, they have to be used with adjustable sprockets and set via dial gauge. Ridiculous amount of work, I always thought it was lame they didn't drill the correct locating hole so the cams would be degreed properly when pinned.

:oldman:
Interesting... So different blanks for Renntech hmmmm....
I would do that Bore myself on the cam if everything aligned up perfectly.
About the Blanks, it raises a couple of Q. Std M119 blanks 4.2/5.0 seems obvious, the blanks for AMG are also obvious as the logo is cast into them, right?
very interesting to know is, what marks are there on, say Brabus, Hagman cams, maybe they used the AMG blanks?

Maybe someone ( Bernhard ) should lift one of his valvecovers off, just curious! Roger
My cams have some stuff ground of the shaft between the lobes. I saw this on other Cams aswell... Might be casting residues/imperfections that later got ground off... Dunno....
 
I'll wait to see what Jono finds out... but the reason why mb cams were chilled iron castings (not cast iron), is it is more cost effective in large volume. In today's time- there are steel CNC which can work. They will not be compatible with *stock* lifters.

I believe if you read the SAE papers on the M119 race motors, you will find MB used Steel and not cast iron. They can be made strong and light or lighter than cast iron. Just a structural engineer whom makes things light for a living talking.

I suggest all to read "https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camshaft".

I understand the implications on valve lift completely Christian and do know Renntech did them. \


Remember CNC was not available 10-15 years ago for low volume.

Michael

Yes its all ok what you say... but its not Plug and Play, but majore head rework, coatings and what not. Large ammounts of $$$ to be spend. Also i hear this camshaft stuff since 5 years already... and nobody released any custom cams for the M119 so far.
Go Ahead and deliver something. Let people test it out for some many many miles so we see how realiable the steel cams will be. Or will it be now another 5 years until the next mentioning and no cams released?
And what are the costs then for the cams alone? I bet way more than 2000€ + Springs + Whatever. A reground cam with a good profile and around 10.4 Lift is just 700 some Euros... For me the decision was a good one with the regrounds.
 
I know what is P&P. AMG cams, right or wrong? Roger
Depends on the engine and the cams. The AMG E60 manuals indicate that the heads were machined to allow the higher valve lift... so, the AMG 6L cams may not be plug & play in a stock cylinder head.

:hornets:
 
As I see it, more and more complicated it goes! We need more research to be certain, wonder if the E50 head job was as elaborate as the E60?
Given the same lift~they must have some revision into them, porting and etc.etc.
 
Has this been dyn'd, just cams? Not trying to be a naysayer but I would like to see some actual gains. Maybe I missed it somewhere.
I am just still hesitant to believe there is much there. Basically the difference in hp from a stock 5.0 m119 to an AMG 6.0 m119 is max say 80-90hp. And that is displacement, compression, camshafts and tuning. I bet there is 20+hp in tuning there on a stock engine if you could adjust the timing properly and get a good a/f ratio. And if all things are equal it is around 60-65 hp per liter that a stock 5.0 makes. Add a liter of displacement and you get 60-65 hp. Add a couple hp for compression. and a couple for Camshafts or maybe they were needed to just get the gains of the additional displacement.
My point really that with the profiles and small amount of adjustment and without being able to tune for them. Cams are at most a supporting mod for the larger displacement or maybe a few hp on the top end.
I have also put AMG m113 cams in standard 430 and 500 engines and you could not really tell the difference. If I had to guess I would say 5-10hp.
Now if you could put a proper header and collector setup on the engine to get some scavenging I think you could see some slightly better gains from Cams.
 
Hi there, I know you from the MB World, welcome here.
Yes say 5liters and some 25*30hp as the AMG E50 has over the 500E
ME*jet. but 11.0 to 1comp. opened up intake ports, much better exh. syst.
officially 347hp wich I think, feel is a bit underestimated.

Remember that AMG had to enlarge the M113 500 to 550 to get the same result
with a little more torque, due to stroke.

Yes cams alone may free a little but the sum of all other parameters add up. Rogec
 
Yes say 5liters and some 25*30hp as the AMG E50 has over the 500E
ME*jet. but 11.0 to 1comp. opened up intake ports, much better exh. syst.
officially 347hp wich I think, feel is a bit underestimated.
Remember that the E50 with ME injection likely does not have WOT enrichment... if so, the same engine with WOT enrichment (~12.5 air/fuel ratio) could produce 355-360hp at the crank.

:v8:
 
The 5L M119 greatly improves with ported/portmatched heads+intake runners+exhaust manifolds and more aggressive cams. This will confirm you every tuner that tuned the M119 back then. The stock cams are relatively mild, especially the later ones. While the heads already flow "good" (well its a 4 Valve so it has to be) there is still room for improvement. If there would be none or just 5HP, no tuner would have offered it. Remember one of the Tuner with the best references for M119, M120, M113, etc was Hagmann. The Hagmann owner himself told me, his cam profile (10.4 Lift intake and 10.4 exhaust, 264°intake/252°exhaust) with the stock heads and after LH Adjustment will produce around 355HP. When you Portmatch and Port the Heads it will be 370HP (dyno verified!), Max HP shifts to 6000RPM. Thats 15HP/NM that the Portmatch Porting alone will give, dont forget that Porting/Portmatch will often greatly improve throttle responsiveness and overall "feel" of the engine when it revs up. You can read this result at basically every Porting/Portmatch experience of a user (brand/car independent).

Bernard will offer in the future a tuning between the 5L and the 6L with a 5.6L (or was it a 5.4L?) engine with just different pistons (because of IIRC compression and displacement), his Stage 2 or Stage 3 Ported CNC Heads, Agressive Cams, ported stock exhaust headers and it will Rev to 7000RPM!, redline at 7200RPM, 11:1 compression, LH-Jetronic.
This engine will Produce 400HP (DIN) and Torque inbetween the 5L and 6L, but of course not the massive 6.xL Torques. Different high-revving engine characteristic, i dont know if he already had a succesfull prototype of this engine so far (he was pretty silent about it), but i believe him with his Power advertisements, as they are always very conservative.

Bernard offers CNC Ported M119 heads that massively englarged the intake ports, shorter and oval-tip shaped valveguides, Multi-angle valve-seat cut, maximized exhaust ports and Portmatched Intake Runners+Exhaust manifolds (both are also greatly enlarged to portmatch the enlarged intake and exhaust ports in the heads). He already sold a couple of sets of these Heads. The price is including 19% VAT IIRC 3900€ for both, you basically have brand new heads then that are tuned to the maximum. Some of the customers were people with 6L Brabus or 6L AMG 500Es, they noticed an improvement in reaction to throttle inputs, they told him and he told me that the cars equipped with his heads got more "agressive" and gain especially near top till readline. I share you one pic of an Intake runner of his CNC machined heads. The funny thing is... if you look at stock 6L AMG heads or the 6L Brabus heads, you notice these heads are already ported/portmatched and the surface is very smooth. Brabus also shortened the valve-guides on their M119 and M120 head rework on top of that. And still Bernard claims his CNC heads flow 15% !!! better than the Ported/Portmatched AMG heads.
Pictures of his Stage1 CNC heads. Notice especially the big exhuast Ports. I can tell you from my own experience that they are stock only approx 60-70% of that opening!:
Bernards M Besuch 06.201505.jpg20150801_111730.jpg20150801_111725.jpg20150801_111748.jpg20150801_111751.jpg

These are Brabus Ported Intake runners (sorry not more pictures taken):
20150801_113704.jpg20150801_113712.jpg

These are the E50AMG Exhaust Manifolds. Bernard says these engines are artificially throttled, they are stronger if exhaust opened up.
Yes Dave i also thing they have no WOT-enrichment. I think i secure one of these engines, a friend of mine selling one currently. Might be good if optimized for a 500E.:
Bernards M Besuch 06.201506.jpgBernards M Besuch 06.201507.jpg


Regarding your Question Roger,
i think Brabus machined the Valvespring/Tappet Bore deeper for safety margins. The Hydraulic lifters/tappets were 2mm longer/deeper back in the days. The current ones are 2mm shorter. And maybe because of their used Valvesprings. All i can tell you is that it works with a stock Valvespring Bore with the 10.4mm Lift. IF it will work with 11mm, you need to put the Valveguides down further into the ports and you need good springs that can compress so much but still are strong enough.
 
I think that the big problem with comparing engine to engine in general is tuning. Unless you know what the timing actually is and the a/f ratio you are really guessing more than anything. And add the fact that there is not a progression of cams added. then compression added then more displacement, etc. What injection system is used is really mute unless it has a physical air restriction.
Do not get me wrong in that I do not think cams could add power. Just not in the current engine configuration alone. Look at engines that do respond really well to cam changes. And then look at then look at these. There is also a lot of optimization with the cam advance that a standard cam motor would not have and respond more to a cam change.
I think that looking at closer engine designs like say the m3 engine and a c36 engine. Look at where the power is made and what is different about the engines. Later BMW engines do very well at higher rpm with vanos cams and high compression and a much more open intake and exhaust system. I mean a lot less restrictive. But they loose torque compared to the AMG engine. Then make up for the torque loss with gear ratios.
In the end I really think that unless you can tune for it 20hp is probably max from Cams alone then maybe another 20-30 from exhaust. Maybe more on the exhaust I could see 30-40 or more up top and more than that with tuning. And then you are back to the intake. It is a long runner intake built for torque.
And one more thing I do plan some day to build a wicked m119. But it will be TT and on a standalone. But everything I have learned on the m104 is that the heads breath pretty well and a few lbs of boost will do a lot more than 5k in head work and camshafts. Damn near double that for a m119 and I will just add boost. I love the engine.
 
Christian K.,
The problem is that you have to separate what they could do with just tuning 1st. So what do stock cams make with proper tuning? Then add cams and re tune. Then what? I would love to see the dyno graphs. And better flow from heads does not nec. result in more hp. I have seen some very high flowing heads result in lower hp. Velocity is much more important.
Again, I am not saying there are no gains to be had but it is small little pieces and as far as why to offer something for thousands of dollars that makes 10hp. Look at any tuner and you will see those parts. Renntech air boxes are my favorite.
 
I hear you Mr whipple. However the so called "classic (and expensive) engine tuning" does work. I mean heads and cams. If it would not net some power, no one would ever offered it. I read you old posts that you had no gains with Cams and porting on the M104 and all i can tell you is that you most likely did something wrong. I know of 3.6L self-made builds in german Forums that improved from Porting and installation of the C36AMG intake cam. Yes maybe just 20HP on that 3.6L but thats around 10%.

When you bought a 6L M119 back in the days from Brabus or Hagmann, AMG, MKB, Lorinser, Carlsson, whoever, they were ALL including Head porting/portmatching and more aggressive cams. You could not even say "no i dont wont it", they were just part of those tuned engines.
Bernard, which you dont know but i know him and i believe the experience stories he always tells me on our long evenings when i visit him, has done more than 500! M119 engines the last 10 years. Many of them were complete overhauls or 5L to 6.xL conversions with Brabus and/or AMG Parts. Bernard puts his engines on the Dyno which i mentioned before and get them dyno tuned after conversion.

He also had "bad running" 6L engines at his shop from a certain Tuner near Aschaffenburg, Germany. "Bad running" in terms of to low power compared to 6L Brabus and AMG cars - the customers complained after they driven with Bernards cars. So Bernard put them on the Dyno first and reads that they Produced 370HP, while his 6L M119s always do produce more than 400HP on the same Dyno (Most 6Ls produce like 420HP). So he opened the engine and found that they had the stock 5L heads with stock camshafts in them.
So he intalled Ported/Portmatched Heads and AMG 6L Cams, went to the Dyno and got back more than 400HP in this case.
So please now lets tell me again that Heads and cams wont do anything with our cars?

How can you even compare classical engine tuning to something hipster like a Renntech Airbox? How should an Airfilter Box increase powert at all? Not possible. However, very likely possible with Heads and Cams.
Yes i also thought that flow speed is more important, i also read lots of books about it from vizard & co. I also had an Argument with Bernard about it. Still when he says his heads run better than Ported/Portmatched AMG or Brabus Heads, then i believe him. He is a conservative guy when it coms to tuning and possible power gains...
 
I am not saying that these mods will not do anything at all. I really think that everyone should be realistic about what each individual mod does and how each mod is effected by another. In fact you just stated that ported heads netted 30hp on a 6l with cams etc. which cost 3900 euro, which is 4300 plus labor to remove and install. So another couple thousand. So that is a lot of money for 30hp. And if you did this same job on a standard 5.0l then you could expect the gains to be less. You cannot say that cams yield 50hp with tuning at the same time from stock. I do a lot of headers and tunes on the m156 engines. Yes a C63 gains damn near 100whp with headers and a tune but they also gain 50-60hp from a tune alone. So headers and another tune net another 50hp-60hp.

And to be fair, I did not realize the gains with the camshafts I had hoped on my car, but for the investment I should have spent the money doing something else. I have not been on the dyno since and expect to see a bit. And the point was if not on a supercharged engine with an open header exhaust with collectors then you could expect less on a n/a engine with stock exhaust and no or little tuning. Another thousand on top of what I spent and I could have gotten a 2.3l supercharger and added 10lbs of boost and made another 200hp. I just wanted to know what I could get with the camshafts. I also could have had a custom crank pulley made for 5-600 and made more boost with my current supercharger and made more power. Or a larger intercooler and kept iat lower and made more power per dollar spent.
 
Just to be clear I am not criticizing what you are doing in any way. There is something to be said about maximizing any platform and I love n/a engines as well. I would love to see the ported heads, cams, intake and high compression with long tube headers rev'd up to 8k rpm. I think you could make some real hp.
 
I am not saying that these mods will not do anything at all. I really think that everyone should be realistic about what each individual mod does and how each mod is effected by another. In fact you just stated that ported heads netted 30hp on a 6l with cams etc. which cost 3900 euro, which is 4300 plus labor to remove and install. So another couple thousand. So that is a lot of money for 30hp. And if you did this same job on a standard 5.0l then you could expect the gains to be less. You cannot say that cams yield 50hp with tuning at the same time from stock. I do a lot of headers and tunes on the m156 engines. Yes a C63 gains damn near 100whp with headers and a tune but they also gain 50-60hp from a tune alone. So headers and another tune net another 50hp-60hp.

And to be fair, I did not realize the gains with the camshafts I had hoped on my car, but for the investment I should have spent the money doing something else. I have not been on the dyno since and expect to see a bit. And the point was if not on a supercharged engine with an open header exhaust with collectors then you could expect less on a n/a engine with stock exhaust and no or little tuning. Another thousand on top of what I spent and I could have gotten a 2.3l supercharger and added 10lbs of boost and made another 200hp. I just wanted to know what I could get with the camshafts. I also could have had a custom crank pulley made for 5-600 and made more boost with my current supercharger and made more power. Or a larger intercooler and kept iat lower and made more power per dollar spent.

Just to be clear I am not criticizing what you are doing in any way. There is something to be said about maximizing any platform and I love n/a engines as well. I would love to see the ported heads, cams, intake and high compression with long tube headers rev'd up to 8k rpm. I think you could make some real hp.
I think our opinion is not much different Mr Whipple. So i hope there was no offense taken by my post.
Yes i aggree the ROI is pretty bad for classical engine tuning, even worse when the engines are like 20 years old and there are no easy bolt-ons available for low ammount of $$$. But it was always like that.
Brand independend, back in the 1990s in germany the rule of thumb was always around 100DM-200DM PER 1 Horsepower was to be spent. Today its like 150-200€ per 1Horsepower depending on car and available bolt-ons. Of course on super exotic cars its even more than 200€/HP. So in this case 30 HP is then between 4500 to 6000€, with his heads and for instance reground cams you are pretty easy within that range.

Is it worth it? Everyone has to make that decision on their own. Is the Return of Investment good? Not at all! Yes you could have easy 3-5 times that power gain with the same amount of spent money, if you go turbo/supercharged. However for instance here in germany you would NEVER get that over the Tüv/MOT/Annual Checks. You would never be able to drive such a car legally and if you do a crash, no insurance will pay as the operating license expired at the moment you install such mods. Think about you over ran a person and this one sits in in wheelchair till the rest of his life. You are in pretty big $$$ trouble then, till the rest of your life when no insurance pays.
Also you could get serious taxation troubles, cause in germany you pay annual taxes based on exhaust emissions + displacement, which greatly differs with a super/turbocharged engine.
Only solution would be to do a new car expert opinion at the TüV for both the car with the mods and especially the exhaust emissions. Such new expert opinions/exhaust emission big test are in the 5digit $$$ area, so only tuners or car manufacturers can invest that money usually.
So we are only left with classical tuning (invisible to annual checks) here for these engines.

Also on the 6L which are mostly around 420HP on that particulary Dyno, its more a 50HP/NM gain at the crank with Heads and Cams.
So... at the end of the day im quite satified with my results. I only invested like 1500€ for ported heads and cams regrinds + 500€ for material like hydraulic lifters and gaskets. So my ROI is better, but it was mostly DIY and took almost 4 weeks. Dbilas did the regrinds, the head resurfacing, the valve-seat recut on both the valve-seats in the head and on the valves themselves. I did Porting/Portmatching, Valveguides, aswell as de- and reassembling.
 
Well said from all but it comes down to, what are we after (in this turning Oldtimer as a model), the 036.
If there are on *the shelf* parts cams-heads AMG E50/E60, crankshaft M117 pistons 97.5 within reach
not too expensive and almost contemporay OEM So if youre motor is out and in the need for part or
complete renovation your free to play around a little and if so, only 30hp gain ie. with a smooth/sweet
performance to the seat of youre pants, I say it's worth it.

I could live with a 500E performing like the E50 I also know what E60 means on top of that.
Even a renewed 119 974 stock, would be sufficient to most. Think for some time, how am I going to
USE my 124 036....Roger
 
Christian it's nice that you pulled the trigger on the dbilas cams and that it seems that there is some improvement noticeable. I and others would like to see a dyno run to see what are the actual results, not because I don't believe you, no because I want to see how much it is in numbers! also it would end a long and up to now hypothetical discussion here... I in fact had pretty bad experience with my M117 5,6 ECE cams where dbilas did a regrind job on. They where totally out of spec and couldn't be timed at all with the factory available offset woodruff keys. Best thing I got was blowing exhaust gas into the intake due to incredible valve overlap. So I had to source new ECE cams which are now installed. Also I don't really understand why steel cams should be unfit for the aluminium heads, most of modern engines (with aluminium heads) run built steel cams nowadays. The kind of steel cams I know are also much lighter than cast ones. Maybe you can give me some information in regards to this topic. In regards what tuners sell, back then alot of stuff was sold because people bought it and the sellers made money with it. Also I have never seen dyno results of any of the tuners mentioned in this thread (except Bernard).


@Whipple 104, i'm on a similar project for my brothers 190:
 

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"Christian it's nice that you pulled the trigger on the dbilas cams and that it seems that there is some improvement noticeable."

Yes that is right, a good job also in investigate for us to come nearter to the truth, wich seems harder than one belive.
Depending how far you want to go tuning the M119, cams and heads you must considder some way or another. Roger
 
Christian it's nice that you pulled the trigger on the dbilas cams and that it seems that there is some improvement noticeable. I and others would like to see a dyno run to see what are the actual results, not because I don't believe you, no because I want to see how much it is in numbers!
+1!! If they have dynoed a lot of these engines with the regrind cams, can't someone post a before & after dyno graph from the same engine...?

:apl:
 
Christian, Why did you use INA, was it because they are an OEM supplier?

Jim

Because the little cheaper ones by Federal Mogul did this sound:
[video=youtube;KoLa753bX9s]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KoLa753bX9s[/video]

Now with the INA it turned into this:
[video=youtube;LF0f6ViNIgY]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LF0f6ViNIgY[/video]
 
OK there is a huge difference. The pick-up when you blipped the engine seems quick...Any more feedback on the camshaft modification now you have finished?

Jim
 
Hi Christian; I prefer the 2:nd taking, so that is what you recommend. Were they E-bay or part supply ordered from dealer on-line?
I guess you have got to see the box they came out from, don't know if I missed the price diff. Roger
 
OK there is a huge difference. The pick-up when you blipped the engine seems quick...Any more feedback on the camshaft modification now you have finished?

Jim
Sure, huge difference. Much better throttle response and so forth. But i think i did a short take on the cams+port/portmatch already somewhere. Hmm currently i can not write much as i was terrible sick - got a virus in my brain/could have died. Currently in the long recovery phase. Sorry.

http://www.500eboard.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8054&p=107994&viewfull=1#post107994
 
Christian, hope your doing well. So that explain, you being out of business, I have been wondering. I saw that about the INA lifters, do you know when
MB did change, I guess it does not matter in the case of E60 '96 '97 or E50 as they were rebuilt, valves, springs etc.
 
I bought first a set of new (Federal Mogul) AE FOL 147 Lifters (they are of the later style lighter ones with shorter skirts by -2mm like the INA) but they made terrible noises, so i threw them away, took again 4 days of labor and disassembled everything again and inserted a new set of 32 INA tappets "INA 420004200". Now everything is smooth and silent. The Lifters are pumped-up to their maximum and the base circles barely touching them. I think on some cam-lobes there is a hard to measure Gap of maybe less than 0.05mm between base circle and tappet.

My UK INA agent "GSF car parts" 0121 498811 tell me the part number for the M119.974 lifters is INA 420004210 with GSF reference 145ME0140.

Hmmm

I will go back to them to ensure they have done a good job and not confused the M119.975.

Price 307.20 GBP including 20% vat for 32.
 

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I will go back to them to ensure they have done a good job and not confused the M119.975.
All M119 should use the same lifter. No difference between .974 and .975 engines.

BTW, appears that p/n 1190500825 may be NLA and replaced by 1040501225, current MSRP is $51 each (x32 would be $1632 list! :o )
 
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Hi, is that straight out of the box? No nothing done to the motor other than well runned in? ~15hp and ~10 Nm more than factory, thats good
and pointing in the direction to, factory figures are modestly put. Nice, very nice...
 
Cats uh, well they do not mean all of that extra Power, 200cell would do that and the car would be leagal in my neighborhood.
 
I am also preparing to grind camshaft but by using 37.1mm base circle with solid lifter for next stage. the lift would be a 11.0mm at least and between 12.5mm.
In meanwhile, the cam shall be welded.

Now I am re investigating and measuring heads.
The lifter diameter is 35mm and has offset near 2.0mm from center. So the maximum cam lift should be 11.5 to 12.5mm around cause of mechanical profile restriction.
Also I should concern the Oil hole, inside of cylinder wall of lifter, hence the limit should be 13.9mm at intake and 13.6mm at ex by using 37.1mm circle.

At this time, I am wondering to calculate special un-symmetrical profile and target max rev would be over 7000rpm, so I shall chose solid lift.
The spring, cotter, retainer,valve guide, valve seat and valve shall be also change.

Hope this picture and link would be helpful for your alternative.

I am also useing CNC porting and round spherical seat ring (Not Multi Angle) more than 5years !
http://mercedesbenznetcom.blog81.fc2.com/blog-entry-99.html

NIIBE

http://mercedesbenznetcom.blog81.fc2.com/
https://www.facebook.com/E500E
 

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My seats are also made that way, we call it "Trichterförmig - Funnel-shaped" here in germany. It was done by Dbilas they know their business well... It all adds up. I also sanded the transition areas from port to seat down while porting and portmatching, so everything is smooth. Thanks for your insight. Welding is a nice method keeping the base circle, however will it last?
 
Right, this has been "common sense" among tuners, I for some 20years ago was introduced to the "radious cut seat" http://www.miratool.ch/

this offcourse you do on a serious,,machining,, together with portmatch and grinding/polishing.

Cam regrinding, if, you do not have uncut raw cams, I was told by my nearest tuner that the cam regrinder was happy to
grind from suitable steel billet shafts. They DID NOT suggest any welding of material to the cams...... that however you
are allowed to do to youre crankshaft, if you would like a few mm more stroke.

Everything has got a price, hasn't it?
 
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I'd be somewhat concerned with the durability and wear characteristics of the weld material. Would you mind sharing the the type of weld material / specification number / classification number?
Also, are you performing or carrying out any PWHT (post weld heat treat)?
Cheers

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk
 
I'd be interested in getting a set of hot cams, or getting some recut.

Niibe- please keep it up. I'm very inspired by the work you have done and would like to do something similar. Let us know what will happen with the cam grinding.
 

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