E50 Amg engine in e500e?

[Taxi Driver]

Todays dynoresults:

286 DIN HP at the rear wheels (picture)
282 HP uncorrected at the wheels
280 EG HP at the wheels

The upper graph should show power at the clutch, but there is very little energy consumed by the transmission - I do not know if this assumtion is correct.

The 280 HP at the rear wheels are not so bad in my view. Both cats do rattle a little bit and everything else is original. Temperature was quite high.
Dave, what do you think of this?

Nic

Interesting BUT could you please, specifie, in what shape and form, this run and motor was in? I mean, was it full E50 AMG?

 

[nic520]

Hi,
Dynojet at sealevel and 20 degree celsius, car was the W124 E420 conversion as described above. Original 16“ wheels, 215/55 tires. original 4 speed automatic transmission.
N

 

[nic520]

120k km on the engine, chain with precise original length.

 

[nic520]

 

[nic520]

Todays testdrive (oilfilterhousing had to be newly sealed, now it seems ok)

 

[nic520]

 

[nic520]

Hi,
again a short drive with a new Euro 2 conversion cat (600/400 cells, car meets higher emission values with this, not reduced flow), stainless steel plus stainless steel exhaust. Still drives fine. Found that the old cat was broken.
By the way: I looked at the intake manifold again and I still think there is no larger volume. Compared to the w210 E420 it lacks the „AGR“ (dont know the english word). That may be the change requiring a HWA number.
Kind regards
Nic

 

[gsxr]

Watching that really makes me want to move to Germany.

 

[nic520]

And here you can hear ASR at work two times if you listen closely.

 

[gsxr]

And here you can hear ASR at work two times if you listen closely.

Nice! What is "G+M Kat (Euro 2)"? You didn't use the Fox catalysts?

 

[nic520]

Nice! What is "G+M Kat (Euro 2)"? You didn't use the Fox catalysts?

G+M Kat manufactures a replacement cat which enables you to have Euro 2 emissions whereas the original 420/500 has Euro 1 emissions. That relates also to tax and saves about 300€ a year in Germany. The further exhaust is Fox. Fox does not manufacture a cat.

 

[nic520]

 

[gerryvz]

@nic520 So the E500E / 400E420 originally sold in Europe with Euro 1 level. Interesting !

 

[nic520]

@nic520 So the E500E / 400E420 originally sold in Europe with Euro 1 level. Interesting !

Yes Gerry, that is the case. And there are very few ways to get to Euro 2 level. When Euro2 was introduced, it was a very common way to have a device added to Euro1 cars which provided a leaner running engine after start-up - and with that Euro 2 emissions. In German it is called „Kaltlaufregler“. Not available anymore now. A catalytic converter to get a 500E/E420 to Euro 2 level with the corresponding official papers is very unique.

 

[gerryvz]

Hey @nic520 — are there any differences in emissions regulations between the individual states in Germany? Meaning, is there any difference in the taxes that you would pay living in Köln vs. Dresden vs. München?

 

[nic520]

Hey @nic520 — are there any differences in emissions regulations between the individual states in Germany? Meaning, is there any difference in the taxes that you would pay living in Köln vs. Dresden vs. München?

No, emissions and vehicle-tax are the same all over Germany.
Emissions are harmonized Europe-wide meanwhile.

 

[gsxr]

G+M Kat manufactures a replacement cat which enables you to have Euro 2 emissions whereas the original 420/500 has Euro 1 emissions. That relates also to tax and saves about 300€ a year in Germany. The further exhaust is Fox. Fox does not manufacture a cat.

Thanks! What is the cost of the G+M?

@JC220 , didn't you have a Fox front section with cats? I would have sworn Fox offered a manifold-back setup.

 

[nic520]

Hi Dave,
the two cats with tubing which exchange for the original part sell for around 1.600€, they offer a repair kit for about 1.200€ where you have to cut and weld shortly before the oxygen sensor.
I picked my cats up at the manufacturer and talked to the owner: to me it looks as if they are very much focused on the quality of the parts. With the necessary platinum plating, the price is directly related to the material. Also, it fitted perfectly. Oxygen-sensor sits a little bit more on top of the tube, will make future changes a lot easier.

and no, it will not fit under the car with ramps. The car has to be lifted quite high in order to get the cats out. One should not try that at home...

 

[gerryvz]

I bet if you use jack-stands instead of ramps, then you can get the car high enough to do it on the floor (if you need to). Those ramps look pretty low.

 

[nic520]

I bet if you use jack-stands instead of ramps, then you can get the car high enough to do it on the floor (if you need to). Those ramps look pretty low.

Gerry, I must admit, I tried it with jacks (40cm) and ended up having to cut the original exhaust at the front to get it out, move the car at 8pm without exhaust to get the door closed and beg for a professional jack the next day to mount the new exhaust. The cat section needs at least 45 degrees to the ground from the leveled car to be mounted. I had to lift the car at the passenger side for about 100cm to get the cats mounted.

 

[JC220]

Yes Gerry, that is the case. And there are very few ways to get to Euro 2 level. When Euro2 was introduced, it was a very common way to have a device added to Euro1 cars which provided a leaner running engine after start-up - and with that Euro 2 emissions. In German it is called „Kaltlaufregler“. Not available anymore now. A catalytic converter to get a 500E/E420 to Euro 2 level with the corresponding official papers is very unique.

I wonder how they can be more effective? And is there a chance of reduced gas flow as a result of same?

Thanks! What is the cost of the G+M?

@JC220 , didn't you have a Fox front section with cats? I would have sworn Fox offered a manifold-back setup.

I have a Fox cat back on my 500E yes. I didnt buy a cat version at that time from fox I think they do offer it but would have to check.

I did also fit new UK cats to my C140 m119 and noticed It sounded alot better with them and they were much smaller than OE MB. They cost considerably less too. Aparantly catalyst technology has improved from 1990s less precious metals can be used

 

[nic520]

I wonder how they can be more effective? And is there a chance of reduced gas flow as a result of same?



I have a Fox cat back on my 500E yes. I didnt buy a cat version at that time from fox I think they do offer it but would have to check.

I did also fit new UK cats to my C140 m119 and noticed It sounded alot better with them and they were much smaller than OE MB. They cost considerably less too. Aparantly catalyst technology has improved from 1990s less precious metals can be used

I guess there could be flow reduction, but it does not show in the 100 - 200 km/h time. Time has a little bit improved with the new cat + exhaust. But one of the old ones was broken, that could have reduced flow as well. The other cat was empty though - may have compensated the broken one.
The manufacturer told me, the old material was thicker, the new materials are better in the sense of flow reduction per surface. I have no idea. The new cats are equipped with 600 and 400 cells each.
The old cat:

 

[nic520]

Todays Dyno run, EG PS at rearwheels, DIN is 9 PS more.
It‘s about 20 PS more compared with the old exhaust.

 

[gsxr]

View attachment 119751
Todays Dyno run, EG PS at rearwheels, DIN is 9 PS more.
It‘s about 20 PS compared with the old exhaust.

Nice!! What LH module do you have in the car? Does it have WOT enrichment?

Those numbers translate into roughly 350hp/395tq (SAE) at the crank. Fantastic output from a 5.0L engine. Wish I could get that dyno graph out of my 500's!

 

[nic520]

Hi Dave,
LH Module is 012 545 62 32. I am very happy with the output. Was the same dyno as last time. Obviously it is only related to the other cat and exhaust.
Nic

 

[nic520]

 

[gsxr]

Hi Dave,
LH Module is 012 545 62 32. I am very happy with the output. Was the same dyno as last time. Obviously it is only related to the other cat and exhaust.
Nic

Thank you for posting the dyno graph on this setup. It is exactly what I wanted to try on my 500E, if I could find an E50 engine to experiment with.

I may have missed the post, but did you use the E50 AMG intake manifold? If so, what did you do about the EGR valve, since there is no EGR port on the .980 AMG engine?

 

[nic520]

Hi,
I did not use the E50 manifold but the 420‘s. To my opinion, there is no difference in diameter. The HWA part has no EGR port, thats the main difference and therefore I had to use the 420‘s part. Just for the looks, vacuum is not connected to the valve.

 

[Taxi Driver]

Hi,
I did not use the E50 manifold but the 420‘s. To my opinion, there is no difference in diameter. The HWA part has no EGR port, thats the main difference and therefore I had to use the 420‘s part. Just for the looks, vacuum is not connected to the valve.

Nic, glad to hear Your results, really BUT I have to disaggrea about the size E50 vs 420or even 500 036 mani.
Still You/we have to wonder, WHY did AMG bother to mke a new cast for the E50? HWA and all...

I do not have my E50 anymore but I have 3 E50 motors left, one ready to go into my '93 400E project. after the '92
500E is ready for the season, so I will report on that progress, in the mean time I hope for the spring to come...

As you see, I will allso go "Top less"

 

[gsxr]

THREE of the E50 AMG motors?

 

[nic520]

Still You/we have to wonder, WHY did AMG bother to mke a new cast for the E50? HWA and all...

Hi,
to my opinion, if a part has to have differences, they have to make a new one. If it is requested by AMG, it will have a HWA number. It is not always related to power. For example, the valvecovers of the E50 engines have HWA numbers.
With regard to the „12% bigger intake volume“, I think that results from the changed airbox from W210 E420 to E50 - and from marketing. The E420 has a single intake and only one airfilter, the E50 changed back to the W124/W140/R129 M119 airbox, with minor adaptions.
Since they deleted the EGR on the E50, they had to have a new cast for the manifold. Also, if the E60 can work with the „old“ manifold, why change the diameter for the E50?

 

[Taxi Driver]

Hi,
to my opinion, if a part has to have differences, they have to make a new one. If it is requested by AMG, it will have a HWA number. It is not always related to power. For example, the valvecovers of the E50 engines have HWA numbers.
With regard to the „12% bigger intake volume“, I think that results from the changed airbox from W210 E420 to E50 - and from marketing. The E420 has a single intake and only one airfilter, the E50 changed back to the W124/W140/R129 M119 airbox, with minor adaptions.
Since they deleted the EGR on the E50, they had to have a new cast for the manifold. Also, if the E60 can work with the „old“ manifold, why change the diameter for the E50?

AMG, I think not, changed the inl. manifold, just for the sake to confuse us all, see the 119 980 500S 1996 on, it had another # on it.
The 5liter then, differed only from the E50 "up stairs" i.e reworked heads, valve size (inlet) cam's porting AND the HWA inlet mani.
About the 420S, I do not know and I do not have the CL500 anymore, to check for differece.

About the E60/SL60, from '96-97 I really have to check, pictures and #.
I will not close this case untill all is cleared...

 

[Markus-MD]

I think is a little bit AMG """VODOO "".The Stock Engine is all after Mopf the Same arround 96 fit in all 129 140 210 .in my Opinin too relased the 347 Ps is only 27 less 10% more as stock they took old new stock Head (The old one with big valves)turn a little bit with a milling cutter take Camsshaft with amg logo and that all.And for take more money they modified the mold inlet Mainfold with AMG logo anf finish.and the Rest makes the funny chip Programmer
ok i forgot the new Deigned Exhaust with 55mm Diameter and new Kats and Muffler in the E50. More isent is in my Mind.
Dont forget the E50 was the first Car in corperation with Mercedes Benz and uncel Dieter Zetsche .In this Area was the Money controller more important as the Engeneer. Earn Money was the First the came............
And only with in Danger the modifed the Gear Ratio from E420 2,82 to E50 3,06 .They doo that the difference to the stock e420 or w140 500 or sl 500 was to cloose