Electric car impact on fuel availabilty and pricing in future(?)

[Vinnie]

Meanwhile, in a distant Polish city of Gdynia (local service stuffed through google translator):
Charging stations based on street lamps

Seems like it's a smart idea, which might instantly use currently available infrastructure and significantly increase the number of available charging points, especially in districts covered by apartments. It does not solve the problem of producing more electrons, but partially kills one of my arguments on possible accessibility in block of flats areas.

 

[Jlaa]

Meanwhile, in a distant Polish city of Gdynia (local service stuffed through google translator):
Charging stations based on street lamps

Seems like it's a smart idea, which might instantly use currently available infrastructure and significantly increase the number of available charging points, especially in districts covered by apartments. It does not solve the problem of producing more electrons, but partially kills one of my arguments on possible accessibility in block of flats areas.

That is a good.

In recent years here all the street lamps have been converted from using sodium vapor bulbs to LED bulbs, with attendant energy savings (and maybe more "excess" capacity for charging)

 

[gsxr]

Then there's this. When was the last time you heard of an ICE vehicle bursting into flames in the garage?

A California couple's Tesla caught fire while charging overnight, ignited another Tesla next to it, and caused a massive house fire. They haven't been home in 8 months.

"The firemen said it was so hot that they couldn't walk up the driveway," Yogi Vindum told The Washington Post.

www.businessinsider.com

A California couple's Tesla caught fire while charging overnight, ignited another Tesla next to it, and caused a massive house fire. They haven't been home in 8 months.​

• A couple said their Tesla Model S caught fire while charging overnight, per The Washington Post.
• The Tesla ignited a second Model S next to it and caused a massive house fire, they said.
• A fire report said the blaze caused about $1 million worth of damage, per The Post.

 

[Glen]

Then there's this. When was the last time you heard of an ICE vehicle bursting into flames in the garage?

A California couple's Tesla caught fire while charging overnight, ignited another Tesla next to it, and caused a massive house fire. They haven't been home in 8 months.

"The firemen said it was so hot that they couldn't walk up the driveway," Yogi Vindum told The Washington Post.

www.businessinsider.com

A California couple's Tesla caught fire while charging overnight, ignited another Tesla next to it, and caused a massive house fire. They haven't been home in 8 months.​

• A couple said their Tesla Model S caught fire while charging overnight, per The Washington Post.
• The Tesla ignited a second Model S next to it and caused a massive house fire, they said.
• A fire report said the blaze caused about $1 million worth of damage, per The Post.

Lamborghini Aventador (Finally) Recalled for Engine Fires, Including Ultra-Rare Veneno Models

Even the ultra-rare Aventador-based Veneno and Centenario models are caught up in the 5900-strong recall. Read more at Car and Driver.

www.caranddriver.com

Ferrari recalls Italia cars after reports of fires

Luxury carmaker Ferrari recalls all of the 458 Italia cars made this year, following reports of the supercars catching fire.

www.bbc.com

If you own one of these cars, vans or SUVs, don’t park them in a garage, automaker says

Both Hyundai Motors America and Kia Motors America are instructing owners of some vehicle models to stay away from certain places due to recalls.

www.clickorlando.com

 

[Jlaa]

Then there's this. When was the last time you heard of an ICE vehicle bursting into flames in the garage?

A California couple's Tesla caught fire while charging overnight, ignited another Tesla next to it, and caused a massive house fire. They haven't been home in 8 months.

"The firemen said it was so hot that they couldn't walk up the driveway," Yogi Vindum told The Washington Post.

www.businessinsider.com

A California couple's Tesla caught fire while charging overnight, ignited another Tesla next to it, and caused a massive house fire. They haven't been home in 8 months.​

• A couple said their Tesla Model S caught fire while charging overnight, per The Washington Post.
• The Tesla ignited a second Model S next to it and caused a massive house fire, they said.
• A fire report said the blaze caused about $1 million worth of damage, per The Post.

Lamborghini Aventador (Finally) Recalled for Engine Fires, Including Ultra-Rare Veneno Models

Even the ultra-rare Aventador-based Veneno and Centenario models are caught up in the 5900-strong recall. Read more at Car and Driver.

www.caranddriver.com

Ferrari recalls Italia cars after reports of fires

Luxury carmaker Ferrari recalls all of the 458 Italia cars made this year, following reports of the supercars catching fire.

www.bbc.com

If you own one of these cars, vans or SUVs, don’t park them in a garage, automaker says

Both Hyundai Motors America and Kia Motors America are instructing owners of some vehicle models to stay away from certain places due to recalls.

www.clickorlando.com

I’d venture that it is *expected* that Lambos/Ferraris/ExoticWhatever-Flashy-Gonad-Extenders spontaneously combust, but having a supposed “normal every day car” spontaneously combust while being charged in the garage is not what I expect. Interestingly, @gsxr, the business insider piece you quote talks about “not charging the car or leaving the car charging unattended in the garage…..” isn’t that what everyone does with Battery Electric Vehicles?

I am waiting for the day a lessee of mine asks to install a charger in one of my garages. Do my insurance rates go up because of that? If so, how do I amortize the cost of additional insurance / risk with the charger? How about my neighbor, whose structure I share a wall with? If my neighbor installs a charger, do my insurance rates go up?

How about California disclosure laws? In CA we have to, by law, disclose all kinds of things - whether stuff causes cancer, existence of mold, lead, asbestos, geotech faultlines, flood, noise, whether someone died on the property before, whether a property is subject to various forms of price controls or not, etc …… else one could get sued to oblivion. Will I have to disclose my knowledge of the existence of a BEV charger on my property or an adjacent property else risk litigation?

These are questions which there are no clear answers to yet. These are, however, reasons why I wonder if other forms of energy storage for EVs might ultimately make sense in the long run, like hydrogen (instead of a battery that gets charged at home) or something else….. I don’t know.

 

[gsxr]

I'd want to have them in a detached, all-metal garage. Like this, for example:

Breeze Small Steel Garage 24x20 - Big Buildings Direct

Breeze Front Entry Garage 24×21 is just what you need to open your doors to store your brand new or used car. If you want a car lift, you may consider going taller on the building to fit the lift.

www.bigbuildingsdirect.com

 

[Jlaa]

I'd want to have them in a detached, all-metal garage. Like this, for example:

Breeze Small Steel Garage 24x20 - Big Buildings Direct

Breeze Front Entry Garage 24×21 is just what you need to open your doors to store your brand new or used car. If you want a car lift, you may consider going taller on the building to fit the lift.

www.bigbuildingsdirect.com

View attachment 136359

Agreed, although quite difficult to do in urban areas that look like this

 

[ace10]

Park outside you say?

2014 Porsche Panamera E-Hybrid Safety Recalls - Autoblog

View recall reports to see if the 2014 Panamera E-Hybrid was recalled for safety-related defects or non-compliance with U.S. safety standards.

www.autoblog.com

Note: Porsche recommends that owners park their vehicle outdoors until the recall remedy has been performed.

HVAC electrical issue. Both ICE and PHEV models.
The "fix" for this recall took nearly 18 months to be performed on my wife's car.

Then the car sat for 8 months while PCNA tried to rustle up a replacement hybrid drive battery.

FUCK PCNA. Fuck VAG. I hope they all die a slow and painful corporate death.

 

[gsxr]

Oh, in urban areas, just park on the street. That way it would only burn up the neighbors' car.

 

[RicardoD]

Time to embrace the future boys!

 

[mikeym]

Agreed, although quite difficult to do in urban areas that look like this
View attachment 136360

Tangential: How many feet between the houses or are they just continuous with shared walls on both sides? Can't tell from the picture but looks like just enough to squeeze by to get to the backyard.

 

[Jlaa]

Tangential: How many feet between the houses or are they just continuous with shared walls on both sides? Can't tell from the picture but looks like just enough to squeeze by to get to the backyard.

That's just a stock photo of the painted ladies, but where I live, there are 0 feet, 0 inches between houses.

 

[Jlaa]

Time to embrace the future boys!

Here is a fascinating write up from the New York Times on the implications to the electric grid once we make a transition to EVs (assuming EVs are all storing energy using batteries) - Electric Cars Are Coming, and Fast. Is the Nation’s Grid Up to It?

The Morning: The transition to electric vehicles

You can read the article with a subscription or with bypass paywall - bypass paywall extension for Chrome / Firefox - GitHubhttps://github.com › iamadamdev › bypass-paywalls-ch...

Some key points that I found fascinating:

• The US needs to produce 25% more electricity than it does today if all motor vehicles were BEVs. (Invest in Utilities / Infrastructure / Transmission Lines?)
• "Optimized Charging" = get ready for more granular Time of Use electric rates
• Neat sound bite - "if America’s grid was close to emissions-free, and if about 84 percent of all vehicle travel was electrified, transportation emissions from light-duty vehicles would fall by 90 percent."
• Less than 4% of the cars sold in the US in June were electric (Wow, in my "coastal elites/snobs/moralizers" bubble this number feels more like 30%)

 

[Glen]

I am surprised we'll only need 25% more electricity to power all cars in the country. It'll be 100 years before every car is electrified and by then we may have perfected fusion and possibly 50% efficient PV systems. 25% sounds like an easy target, I would have guessed 75% more.

 

[albdentist]

I believe the future has some nuclear energy component to it …Small Modular nuc Reactors, they can fit on an 18 wheeler. In the future self contained in the size of a domestic trash can, so says the grown up son at Idaho National Labs…

 

[gerryvz]

Time to embrace the future boys!

We know that secretly you miss your 560SEC....

 

[gsxr]

Some key points that I found fascinating:

• The US needs to produce 25% more electricity than it does today if all motor vehicles were BEVs. (Invest in Utilities / Infrastructure / Transmission Lines?)

I agree with Glen. 25% seems optimistic. I'd like to see the data behind this.

• Neat sound bite - "if America’s grid was close to emissions-free, and if about 84 percent of all vehicle travel was electrified, transportation emissions from light-duty vehicles would fall by 90 percent."

LOLOL. "If America’s grid was close to emissions-free"? Might as well be "if there were world peace, a cure for cancer, and plentiful food available for everyone on the planet". Similar for 84% of all vehicle travel electrified.

• Less than 4% of the cars sold in the US in June were electric (Wow, in my "coastal elites/snobs/moralizers" bubble this number feels more like 30%)

Now THAT sounds accurate. SF might be ~30%. Anecdotally in Boise, it seems like <1%.

 

[RicardoD]

We know that secretly you miss your 560SEC....

I am also the guy who's newest car I drive regularly was built in late 1993! But hopefully a year from now I will rocket into the 21st Century with an Aptera electric commute pod.

 

[robm.UK]

There are companies that can convert modern classics to electric. Using Tesla technology a typical conversion requires roughly 16 battery packs at £1000 each. That’s 1/2 tonne of batteries.

1 in 10 new cars sold in the UK in 2021 were EVs. Infrastructure is not ready yet to support much more, but 600 new charging installations are being rolled out in the UK every month to meet the increasing demand.

It is claimed that the new range of 380 kW fast chargers can charge a compatible EV in under 20 minutes.

A recent trial in the UK compared diesel to electricity costs over an 1100 mile round trip. The electricity cost was £204, whilst diesel for the same trip £160. This is mainly due to the cost of fast chargers. Compared to home consumers paying £0.05 per kWh unit, the fast charger was £0.70 per unit.

For short journeys <50 miles the electric car makes some sense. Anything regularly over 100 miles doesn’t.

One BIG factor for me when considering an EV for a daily hack would be stress. It is a fact that EV owners have admitted to feeling more stressed that the battery will run out before they get to their destination. On top of everything else, I could do without that.

It doesn’t help any that owners are also saying that they cannot achieve the claimed range of EVs. Most folks who have planned their first long distance journey in an EV around charging stations and range will know and probably admit that they did not stop at their preplanned charging points because they could not achieve the claimed range.

There have also been reports in UK of an increase in number of traffic accidents involving EVs and pedestrians. I could hazard a guess it’s because you cannot hear EVs coming as well as you would a gasoline or diesel powered car.

I recall some years ago a debate going on between EV companies and government over the lack of sound of the engine. A proposal was put forward to emulate the sound of a combustion engine with speakers. IIRC companies questioned why it should be a combustion engine sound, and proposed other alternatives. I am not aware this actually got agreed and closed out. As a consequence are we going to see an increase in the number of road accidents involving EVs?

The police authorities in the UK do not use the term ‘accident’ because it implies no one is to blame. But by the same token, do EV manufacturers have a duty of care to ensure that their cars can be heard and are safer on our streets.

A lady near to where I live was recently knocked over by an EV and she unfortunately died.

So a question I also have to ask myself - Would I want the added stress from worrying that a pedestrian could step out in front of my EV because they couldn’t hear it coming? Does my aspiration of becoming more green come at a price that I am not willing to pay?

 

[gerryvz]

Turtle Garage article from Philip Richter:

Are Electric Vehicles Inevitable? | Turtle Garage

turtlegarage.com

 

[robm.UK]

5 pages. Only one picture. Errrmm... might struggle with that

 

[Jlaa]

5 pages. Only one picture. Errrmm... might struggle with that

HAHAHA. Also seems to have completely neglected the progress that Chinese manufacturers like NIO and BYD have made and what that means for the adoption of Battery Electric Vehicles. The piece was a very western-centric view (not that that's bad or anything, that's fine) --- it just neglects that there's a ton of population and a lot of consumer demand outside the US.

For example: Warren Buffett Calls It Right on EV Batteries

 

[dionphaneuf]

Car and Driver did a pretty good issue on EVs, the FAQ portion was good. On concerns about the grid...:

"A 2019 Department of Energy report found that the mass adoption of EVs "will not pose significantly greater challenges than past evolutions of the U.S. electric power system." In the long run, EVs may even add stability to the grid. Ford says the F-150 Lightning will eventually be able to power a house during peak demand to save homeowners money and ease pressure on utilities."

EV Manufacturing Impacts are real, but this 2015 report from the Union of Concerned Scientists shows that even accounting for that they are still 2-5x better depending on how the many variables at play shake out (no affiliation FWIW....I was a card carrying member of the union of apathetic scientists during grad school). The grid has only gotten cleaner since then (helping EVs), and they've updated the report to reflect that.

In that report Car and Driver also did a humorous 1100 mile road trip in EVs...predictably, the Teslas crush it, and others are catching up. Had they used the latest/greatest Model S, the charge time would have been cut in half. Not sure what bladders/stomachs you all have, but 45 minutes of stop time on an 1100 mile trip is below my bare minimum. I've done road trips from the Bay Area to Death Valley, Yosemite, Tahoe, and Joshua Tree in my brother's Model 3 with no issue.


EV tech still has some gaps (range when towing, charger speed and availability) but they are closing really fast (10 years ago you couldn't even buy a Tesla much less charge it), so I'm optimistic of where we'll be in 5 or 10 years in terms of how 'frictionless' the experience is. They offer an admittedly different driving experience that is in many ways better (quiet, v12 smooth, fast) and others lacking (sound, drama). I've been disappointed in the styling of most EVs to date....some Teslas are good, the Taycan looks great, but in general it's just unimaginitive and bland (although I suppose that's the industry these days?). The new Hyundai Ioniq 5 looks a bit Giugiaro esque which is fun, the Tesla CyberTruck is....not to everyone's taste but at lease it's something new? The BMW stuff is horrid, but again that seems to be their brand as a whole these days. Sad to see IMO, always loved their rivalry with Benz and their 80s/90s stuff is gorgeous and timeless.

I'll never forget meeting the late David E Davis at the Detroit autoshow in 2008 and he presciently said 'Some people say this is the beginning of the end, I just think it's the end of the beginning'

 

[gsxr]

Car and Driver did a pretty good issue on EVs, the FAQ portion was good. On concerns about the grid...:

"A 2019 Department of Energy report found that the mass adoption of EVs "will not pose significantly greater challenges than past evolutions of the U.S. electric power system." In the long run, EVs may even add stability to the grid. Ford says the F-150 Lightning will eventually be able to power a house during peak demand to save homeowners money and ease pressure on utilities."

I read that article. Note the assumptions though, for FAQ #2:

"The first suggests that the rising volume of EVs will demand so much power that utilities won't be able to supply it. On the contrary, these [electric utility] companies have no problem supplying electricity to EV buyers—presuming most charge their cars overnight."​

FAQ #3, about cold temps, assumes that owners can just "time their departures" so they are unplugging from the grid with the car's interior already at the desired temperature:

"3. How does the outside temperature affect range?​

The further the ambient temperature deviates from the mid-70s, the more energy is devoted to keeping the cabin's occupants—and, in some cases, the battery—comfortable. Because extreme temperatures can irreversibly damage battery cells, EVs will heat or cool the pack as needed to protect it. Testing five EVs in mixed-use driving with the HVAC systems running, AAA found that, on average, range dropped by 41 percent when the temperature fell from 75 degrees to 20. At 95 degrees, range was reduced by 17 percent compared with the 75-degree baseline. Drivers can somewhat reduce the range-zapping effect of extreme temperatures by scheduling their departures—all EVs have this capability—so that the cabin and battery are preconditioned while the vehicle is plugged in and using power from the grid."​

FAQ #5 (Are EVs actually environmentally friendly?) does not include any details about the environmental impacts, or costs, associated with mining/manufacturing or recycling. Sure, you can suck on the virtual tailpipe of an EV safely, but that isn't telling the whole story.


Overall the July/August EV Special Issue was informative, but some of those FAQ's appeared to be written through very rose-colored glasses. There was a whole lot of best-case-scenario assumptions, IMO.

 

[dionphaneuf]

The range loss in cold really depends on the architecture of that car's HVAC system. PTC heater based cars fare far worse than Heat Pump based cars, where the range hit in cold is way less.

 

[JC220]

Regarding the news from Tesla, this thread must now reference another movie apart from Mad Max

 

[robm.UK]

A phase plasma pulse rifle with a 40W range is a bit ‘old hat’ by today’s standards.

 

[alabbasi]

Meanwhile, in a distant Polish city of Gdynia (local service stuffed through google translator):
Charging stations based on street lamps

Seems like it's a smart idea, which might instantly use currently available infrastructure and significantly increase the number of available charging points, especially in districts covered by apartments. It does not solve the problem of producing more electrons, but partially kills one of my arguments on possible accessibility in block of flats areas.

Maybe, but i'm guessing that these won't be fast chargers

 

[JC220]

Regarding the news from Tesla, this thread must now reference another movie apart from Mad Max

View attachment 136934

So no one wants to talk about how Tesla Bots will take our jobs and livelihoods before becoming self aware and taking it all!!

As an aside the quietness of an electric car is very appealing. In our town we hear all the souped up pieces of crap with 1L big blocks and fart can exhausts at 3am.

Although people can make their Tesla sound like a cammed Hellcat too

 

[8899]

Worth watching:

What it's like to take a non-Tesla electric car on a road trip

CNBC's Brian Sullivan and his producer Harriet Taylor take a trip from Las Vegas to San Francisco to test the electric vehicle charging network in the U.S.

www.cnbc.com

Btw, Brian Sullivan is a HUGE car enthusiast and for some reason I seem to think that he either does or did own a E500E.

 

[gsxr]

Worth watching:

What it's like to take a non-Tesla electric car on a road trip

CNBC's Brian Sullivan and his producer Harriet Taylor take a trip from Las Vegas to San Francisco to test the electric vehicle charging network in the U.S.

www.cnbc.com

Good video. Pretty much sums up my opinion as well... currently best suited for local use, probably not long road trips, and it would difficult to have an EV as your only vehicle.

 

[robm.UK]

^^^, I agree your sole car shouldn’t be an EV.

EV’s are ok so long as you also have a push bike and a wet fuel powered car. If you don’t have a push bike the EV might end up feeling inadequate. I’ve heard that psychiatrists in the US now ask ‘if this is about your EV, go away!’

hehe

 

[TerryA]

Right now IMOP, it appears to me a trip of any type would or could be a major inconvenience.

His cost for 434 miles was $0.115 per mile plus 3.5 hours of time for recharge. What a PITA!

My 2015 KIA Optima got 34MPG from Las Vegas back to Orange County approx 400 miles at a current Arco mid grade gasoline price of $4.09 per gallon it cost me &0.120 per gallon and no down time for refueling.

A new 2021 Kia, Hyundai or Honda gets way better mileage than mine. Plus no worries about being stranded w/ a dead battery somewhere in the desert.

It will be a cold day in hell before they pry my hands off the steering wheel of my ICE car
Plus I want to hear my engine when I mash the pedal

 

[dionphaneuf]

This car is pretty impressive. Seems like real world range of >450 mi at 70ish mph....that's SF to LA range on a single charge, so not as critical to have fast chargers. But yes, the non Tesla network does need to improve a lot.

2022 Lucid Air Dream Edition R Exclusive First Drive: Mic Drop!

Lucid Motors’ excellent electric luxury sedan—its first-ever car, by the way—is absolutely a serious threat to Tesla and other luxury carmakers.

www.motortrend.com

 

[ace10]

At only $170K, it's perfect for the proletariat.

 

[gsxr]

At only $170K, it's perfect for the proletariat.

It sounded fantastic up until the pricetag. Kinda like the Taycan Turbo.

 

[TerryA]

At only $170K, it's perfect for the proletariat.

Wow, That’s a hell of a price to pay to save a few pennies a mile over an ICE car.

 

[dionphaneuf]

Fair point. There's a version with the same range for $130k (still ouch) and a 400 mi version for $70k.

I think once we get to $30k price/300mi range/300kW charging speed we'll be past the inflection point. That charge speed and pack size would get you around 200+mi in <15 mins which starts to approach what we need to. The price of a 250 mi plus EV has fallen from ~$70k in 2016 to $35k in 2021, so we're probably another 5 years off.

 

[Glen]

I'm surprised that cost is bothering so many of you. In 1992, a 500E cost $80K USD, which is about $150K USD in today's money. That's considerably more than a Tesla Model S Plaid. Or about the same as a Taycan Turbo (non S).

 

[gerryvz]

I'm surprised that cost is bothering so many of you. In 1992, a 500E cost $80K USD, which is about $150K USD in today's money. That's considerably more than a Tesla Model S Plaid. Or about the same as a Taycan Turbo (non S).

Nobody and I mean nobody on this forum paid anywhere near $80K in 1992 dollars for their E500E. I doubt if most people here paid more than $40-50K for their car (I paid $23.5K in 2003 for my own car) in whatever year's dollars they obtained it.

There is a large difference between paying $50K in today's dollars for a 500E (or $150K in 1992 dollars) and $130K in today's dollars for an electric whatever-mobile. You're judging apples and oranges.

I doubt if most people here, today, would even pay $130K for a gas-engine car (ie. how many people here are buying new MB S-classes or G-wagens?)

 

[gsxr]

I'm surprised that cost is bothering so many of you. In 1992, a 500E cost $80K USD, which is about $150K USD in today's money. That's considerably more than a Tesla Model S Plaid. Or about the same as a Taycan Turbo (non S).

I had to wait 12-15 years before I could afford an 036... might be able to shop for a used Taycan or Lucid in the early 2030's.

 

[gerryvz]

I had to wait 12-15 years before I could afford an 036... might be able to shop for a used Taycan or Lucid in the early 2030's.

Didn't you buy your silver 1994 Budget-Ballin' car in late 2003? So that would have been what, 9 years after it was made?

 

[Glen]

Nobody and I mean nobody on this forum paid anywhere near $80K in 1992 dollars for their E500E. I doubt if most people here paid more than $40-50K for their car (I paid $23.5K in 2003 for my own car) in whatever year's dollars they obtained it.

There is a large difference between paying $50K in today's dollars for a 500E (or $150K in 1992 dollars) and $130K in today's dollars for an electric whatever-mobile. You're judging apples and oranges.

I doubt if most people here, today, would even pay $130K for a gas-engine car (ie. how many people here are buying new MB S-classes or G-wagens?)

That's the point, folks are comparing what they paid for a used E500E to a brand new EV today. From a performance POV, A S-Plaid or Taycan Turbo is light years ahead of our cars. I am comparing apples to apples.

 

[gsxr]

Didn't you buy your silver 1994 Budget-Ballin' car in late 2003? So that would have been what, 9 years after it was made?

It was 2004, but yep, 10 years based on model year, 11 years after it rolled off the production line in July 1993, and 12-13 years after the 036 was introduced in USA.

It wasn't until 2010 that I got my second one (1992, 18+ years old at time of purchase).

 

[ace10]

EVs are going to depreciate over what, a five or six year period? Basically scrap value at that point.

A Taycan Turbo is leasing around $3K/month with $10K down and 10K miles/year.

Even for a run-of-the-mill 1%er with household pre-tax income of $500K/year that's gonna be a stretch.

 

[ace10]

And for reference, my wife's Panamera PHEV stickered around $120K in 2014. She's driven it 60K miles since. Porsche just spent around $30K to put a new battery in it, all in. And now it's worth right around $35K.

The costs are staggering. And that car is the reason I won't ever piss away big money on an EV. We got out of my '14 E63S and her '13 G wagen virtually unscathed, by comparison.

And now these start-up car companies want you to fork over six figures for unproven platforms. With virtually nonexistent service networks.

Oh hell no.

 

[Jlaa]

How come there

I'm surprised that cost is bothering so many of you. In 1992, a 500E cost $80K USD, which is about $150K USD in today's money. That's considerably more than a Tesla Model S Plaid. Or about the same as a Taycan Turbo (non S).

I doubt if most people here, today, would even pay $130K for a gas-engine car (ie. how many people here are buying new MB S-classes or G-wagens?)

A Taycan Turbo is leasing around $3K/month with $10K down and 10K miles/year.

Even for a run-of-the-mill 1%er with household pre-tax income of $500K/year that's gonna be a stretch.

I think we figured out who here is the 0.000001%-er.

 

[RicardoD]

2018 Tesla Model 3 are selling for more than buying a new one (since delivery is end of year for a new one). The Model S is a proven platform at this point. It is the new entries that have me concerned.

 

[Jlaa]

I think once we get to $30k price/300mi range/300kW charging speed we'll be past the inflection point. That charge speed and pack size would get you around 200+mi in <15 mins which starts to approach what we need to. The price of a 250 mi plus EV has fallen from ~$70k in 2016 to $35k in 2021, so we're probably another 5 years off.

I wonder why plug-in hybrids have not been more popular? The best ones I think are the Toyota RAV4 Prime and the Ford Escape Plug in Hybrid. Both have 40 - 45 mile electric range and can refuel nearly instantly for long road trips via gasoline.

If they are able to get this to 100 mile electric range with at the USD 30-35K price point, I would buy one.

Certainly these plug in hybrids are not nearly as “cool” as a Tesla or Taycan or whatever. Increasingly as I get older, I don’t care about “cool” for my transportation needs.

 

[gerryvz]

I think it's funny that we have two clear-cut groups of people here on the forum, with a very very large group in between. One group of "EVs are the future, a true solution to everyone's woes, outperform gas cars, and ..... internal combustion is dead in X years", and another group of "EVs are completely unproven, unsustainable financially and not the panacea they're being sold as"

The vast middle group is quiet. Because they see both/all sides of the equation. And are not convinced that the time for EVs is here yet. And they may feel they are lacking information, so they are for the most part very quiet.

The strongest EV proponents by far are pretty much ALL living in California -- SoCal and Silicon Valley.

It is interesting see how the culture that one lives in -- and what they see on the roads every day -- colors one's viewpoint.

I have often wondered, from a political standpoint, if many of the "blue coastal metropolis liberal" people would turn into "red flyover country conservative" people if they were to move to flyover country and be exposed to flyover country values and culture. I bet they would be, over time. And vice versa for people moving from flyover country to the coasts.

California transplants to places like Austin, TX don't count.