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Engine oil recommendations
- Thread starter 550Maranello
- Start date
From what I understand, clearance specs have not changed much in decades, but tolerance specs have gotten tighter due to better manufacturing practices, so that newer engines hone more uniformly to the designed clearances, even if the they are not that much different than the spec clearances 30-40 years ago. Also, I think that any differences between designed manufactured specs between today and earlier pale in comparison to the deviance from those specs that one can expect over the life of an engine. So it may very well be that a well worn 200K M119 would not fair with light oil because the clearances have worn to well out of spec, while a well cared for low mileage M119 would be able to handle lighter oil just fine because it has no wear. This is basically why a difference between old v. new designed clearance specs are not an issue and why the history of light oil is that engineers from all companies continually back spec older engines to include the newer, better, lighter oil. Ford has back-specs ancient V8s to use 20W, and a lot of other manufactures have back speced their engines.
M119 wasn't speced to 0W-30 in all temps in the late 80s because that oil paled in comparison to today's 0W-30, and the engineers were spooked by the deterioration in the viscosity improvers in old-school dino multigrade. An old school dino 5W-30 multigrade would deteriorate to 5W if left in too long, because multigrade dino is based on 5W stock and wax is added to prevent thinness at operating temperature. But even MB now specs 0W-30 for all engines (even M119) for all temps because this is not an issue with synthetics, which are based on operating temp stocks (and I can't imagine a reason to use anything but a modern synthetic 0W-XX in any engine that anyone cares about because of the cold start up advantages)
Does anyone really think the MB designed specs are so loose as to preclude thin oils?
M119 wasn't speced to 0W-30 in all temps in the late 80s because that oil paled in comparison to today's 0W-30, and the engineers were spooked by the deterioration in the viscosity improvers in old-school dino multigrade. An old school dino 5W-30 multigrade would deteriorate to 5W if left in too long, because multigrade dino is based on 5W stock and wax is added to prevent thinness at operating temperature. But even MB now specs 0W-30 for all engines (even M119) for all temps because this is not an issue with synthetics, which are based on operating temp stocks (and I can't imagine a reason to use anything but a modern synthetic 0W-XX in any engine that anyone cares about because of the cold start up advantages)
Does anyone really think the MB designed specs are so loose as to preclude thin oils?
Clarification: Mercedes allows a 0W-30 for all temperatures, but that is not the same as recommending it. They list 14 different viscosities for various temp ranges, only two of the 14 are 0W-xx, and both are only required for ambients below -13°F. If you live in Northern Virginia, that might be needed. People who live in SoCal or Arizona don't need an oil that thin as their ambient temps never get anywhere close to freezing, let alone below zero Farenheit.
I already stated my reasons previously. You have your religion, I have mine. The oil I use fits in with Mercedes other 12 allowable viscosity ranges. Your preferred oil (0W-20) does not. As I also stated previously, you can use whatever you want, but please don't recommend that forum members should use products in their M119 engines that are explicitly not recommended by Mercedes.
See attached sheet 224.1 with the viscosity chart, since Clark deleted all his photobucket stuff in the last 24 hours. Also attached is some other light reading from Mercedes regarding oils. The "multigrade" PDF, under section 1.2, is particulary interesting as it implies that MB reviewed 0W-20 oils and did not find them suitable for recommendation.
This oil conversation is funny. In the 10 years I've owned my E500, I've used 0W-50 Mobil 1 "Euro" car formula, 10W-40, 15W-50 oils in it, and probably a couple of others. My engine has not fallen apart yet.
I've used 20W-50 oil in my 560SEC for 11.5 years, and only the top end of the M117 has needed to be rebuilt (which is normal on any M117 at 180+K with ANY oil used - worn valve guides). My M104, which has also had 20W-50 and more recently 15W-40 diesel-spec oils used, also only needed to have its top-end rebuilt at 202K miles (leaking head gasket). I used the heavier oils when I lived in the northern climate of Portland, Oregon and also here in Houston, Texas.
None of my engines have failed, and both my M117 and M104 had the factory cross-hatching (and no scoring/scuffing on the cylinder walls). I have not had any lubrication related issues, other than, perhaps, the use of oil on the M117 that had dramatically reduced levels of ZDDP, which that engine's valvetrain needs lots of. But that's not a viscosity issue, that's an additive issue. It's been solved with 20W-50 Brad Penn oil.
And, also, ALL of my cars have used exclusively dino-oils except the E500, which has used exclusively Group III and Group IV/V synthetic oils since I purchased it in August, 2003.
Cheers,
Gerry
I've used 20W-50 oil in my 560SEC for 11.5 years, and only the top end of the M117 has needed to be rebuilt (which is normal on any M117 at 180+K with ANY oil used - worn valve guides). My M104, which has also had 20W-50 and more recently 15W-40 diesel-spec oils used, also only needed to have its top-end rebuilt at 202K miles (leaking head gasket). I used the heavier oils when I lived in the northern climate of Portland, Oregon and also here in Houston, Texas.
None of my engines have failed, and both my M117 and M104 had the factory cross-hatching (and no scoring/scuffing on the cylinder walls). I have not had any lubrication related issues, other than, perhaps, the use of oil on the M117 that had dramatically reduced levels of ZDDP, which that engine's valvetrain needs lots of. But that's not a viscosity issue, that's an additive issue. It's been solved with 20W-50 Brad Penn oil.
And, also, ALL of my cars have used exclusively dino-oils except the E500, which has used exclusively Group III and Group IV/V synthetic oils since I purchased it in August, 2003.
Cheers,
Gerry
FWIW,
Let me preface that I do not race my car other than the occasional stop light Grand Prix. I do drive with my foot to the floor alot.
So I am not trying to get every last RPM out of my engine with light weight oils.
To the best of my knowledge, my car has always run 20-50 Vavoline Dino Oil until I switched to synthetic. I have records from 66k miles.
My 1st synthetic was at around 104k and was Mobile 1 15-50. My car didn't do well on the Mobile 1. It used more oil.
Next I tried 20-50 Royal Purple from around 110k. I am now at 140k plus. I Change the oil every 6k. My car uses no oil at all. I drain out what I put in. It also seems to have stopped a few small seeping leaks. I will continue to use Royal Purple 20-50 as long as it is available.
At one time Gerry VS seemed hot on this oil and was going to even check out the RP facility close to his home.
Just curious why nobody else has tried this stuff. Is there something I don't know? Is my car going to suddenly grenade the engine or something?
Anyway I am very satisfied with the product.
Let me preface that I do not race my car other than the occasional stop light Grand Prix. I do drive with my foot to the floor alot.
So I am not trying to get every last RPM out of my engine with light weight oils.
To the best of my knowledge, my car has always run 20-50 Vavoline Dino Oil until I switched to synthetic. I have records from 66k miles.
My 1st synthetic was at around 104k and was Mobile 1 15-50. My car didn't do well on the Mobile 1. It used more oil.
Next I tried 20-50 Royal Purple from around 110k. I am now at 140k plus. I Change the oil every 6k. My car uses no oil at all. I drain out what I put in. It also seems to have stopped a few small seeping leaks. I will continue to use Royal Purple 20-50 as long as it is available.
At one time Gerry VS seemed hot on this oil and was going to even check out the RP facility close to his home.
Just curious why nobody else has tried this stuff. Is there something I don't know? Is my car going to suddenly grenade the engine or something?
Anyway I am very satisfied with the product.
Terry, I think Royal Purple has some good products, but I do not know a lot about them.
Keep in mind that some manufacturers can have certain products which are very good, and other products which are not. Amsoil is a good example, only their top-of-the line oils are true Group IV/V, their cheaper stuff is Group III. Another problem is that mfr's can change their product while not changing the label... Mobil-1 is a prime example, when they quietly changed from Group IV/V base stocks to Group III circa 2005-2006, resulting in reduced performance. (I think only the M-1 "extended performance" series is still Group IV/V, but they won't tell you that anywhere). Most likely the problem you encountered with Mobil-1 15W-50 was because you were using the new Group III stuff... I had the same problem around 2006-2008, I thought I had an engine problem; but eventually figured out it was the oil, not the engine... changing brands cured the consumption problem - same as you experienced.
Anyway - if the RP 20W-50 is working for you, great. However watch the label closely, any time the API spec changes (example: from SL to SM), the contents have also changed, and you'll need to pay more attention to consumption or other issues. I had used Mobil-1 for 10-15 years and was very confused when their product suddenly started to act up. Hopefully RP won't pull a similar stunt.
Keep in mind that some manufacturers can have certain products which are very good, and other products which are not. Amsoil is a good example, only their top-of-the line oils are true Group IV/V, their cheaper stuff is Group III. Another problem is that mfr's can change their product while not changing the label... Mobil-1 is a prime example, when they quietly changed from Group IV/V base stocks to Group III circa 2005-2006, resulting in reduced performance. (I think only the M-1 "extended performance" series is still Group IV/V, but they won't tell you that anywhere). Most likely the problem you encountered with Mobil-1 15W-50 was because you were using the new Group III stuff... I had the same problem around 2006-2008, I thought I had an engine problem; but eventually figured out it was the oil, not the engine... changing brands cured the consumption problem - same as you experienced.
Anyway - if the RP 20W-50 is working for you, great. However watch the label closely, any time the API spec changes (example: from SL to SM), the contents have also changed, and you'll need to pay more attention to consumption or other issues. I had used Mobil-1 for 10-15 years and was very confused when their product suddenly started to act up. Hopefully RP won't pull a similar stunt.
I have not gotten over to visit RP headquarters at this point - it's about a 45 minute drive from my house, and at a part of Houston that I am not very often around on weekdays/workdays. From what I have seen and from what I know, their products are quite good, and I would not hesitate to use them. At one time I had plans to do so, but decided to to with RedLine products instead about 2 years ago, and that is what I have stuck with.
Clarification: Mercedes allows a 0W-30 for all temperatures, but that is not the same as recommending it. They list 14 different viscosities for various temp ranges, only two of the 14 are 0W-xx, and both are only required for ambients below -13°F. If you live in Northern Virginia, that might be needed. People who live in SoCal or Arizona don't need an oil that thin as their ambient temps never get anywhere close to freezing, let alone below zero Farenheit.
gsxr,
Repectfully, I disagree about the 0W40 oil being too thin.
My understanding of a multi grade oil is this.
The 0W is the viscocity at 32f when measured with a vicosometer.
The 40 weight is at operating temperature.
So that's what's important. The lower viscocity cold
allows faster circulation through the engine.
I've used this oil since I boght my car 3 years ago
and recently had my valve cover gaskets done.
The technician at the dealership said inside looked
like new and the camshafts were perfect.
Car has 225000 on it. My oil pressure is great.
1.5 bar at idle in gear.
I'm not an expert, just saying what I've experiened.
Thanks, Bob Dale
Bob, my apologies if I wasn't clear. 0W-40 is not "too thin", and that viscosity is approved by Mercedes. So there is no problem with you using this oil in your 500E. And you are correct about the viscosity measurements at operating temperature.
I simply do not require a thin viscosity oil where I live. My 500E's are not driven in winter, and we get 100-110°F ambient high temps in summer. Additionally, I prefer a narrower viscosity range; the wider the spread, the more viscosity index improvers are required, and these can have undesirable side effects.
I simply do not require a thin viscosity oil where I live. My 500E's are not driven in winter, and we get 100-110°F ambient high temps in summer. Additionally, I prefer a narrower viscosity range; the wider the spread, the more viscosity index improvers are required, and these can have undesirable side effects.
I will comment on 0W40, which originally was a M-1 only product here in the usa, used universally in oil changes at dealerships.
When it came out, ppl whom were doing oil analysis found that the 0W40 had a higher wear rate, and when they went back to the 10W40, 15W50 etc, the wear rates returned to their previous rate. Based on that I used the diesel rated delvac, instead which seemed to be a superior oil, but was only available in gallons at the distributors.
Now with the 5W40 delvac available at autoparts stores, why would you choose to use 0W40?
Michael
When it came out, ppl whom were doing oil analysis found that the 0W40 had a higher wear rate, and when they went back to the 10W40, 15W50 etc, the wear rates returned to their previous rate. Based on that I used the diesel rated delvac, instead which seemed to be a superior oil, but was only available in gallons at the distributors.
Now with the 5W40 delvac available at autoparts stores, why would you choose to use 0W40?
Michael
I buy the 15W-40 diesel-rated Chevron DELO 400 oil for my E320 wagon, at Tractor Supply Corp. TSC sells it (along with Rotella T, Delvac, etc.) for $69 for the DELO in a 5-gallon bucket. MUCH cheaper than buying the gallon jugs, even from WallyWorld.
I am sure TSC has stores up in the DFW area; I either go to the Tomball, TX or Conroe, TX stores which are closest to my home. EDIT: looks like there are TSC stores in Roanoke and Lake Worth, TX.
Cheers,
Gerry
Thanks Gerry,
Yes I've been in the TSC in Roanoke which is quite close- my neighborhood used to be Roanoke until annexing happened about 5 years ago. Delo is excellent oil- and I believe they were one of the only oils which was universally approved by all internal combustion manufactures. Delvac, I was talking synthetic and it seems to always be onsale at Orilley's during late Oct/Nov. Past 3 years, $25/gallon for my e420.
My truck I use Mobil or Delo 15W40 which ever is onsale. $13-16/gallon.
My 500e seems to not like the 5W40, so I use 10W40 redline. Cub Cadet I use straight HD30, unless cold weather and then it gets 15W40. Those old Kohlers run really hot in the summer, and everyone debates HD30 vs 15W40 for 100+F weather. Amsoil makes a synthetic for lawnmowers... hum.
Michael
Yes I've been in the TSC in Roanoke which is quite close- my neighborhood used to be Roanoke until annexing happened about 5 years ago. Delo is excellent oil- and I believe they were one of the only oils which was universally approved by all internal combustion manufactures. Delvac, I was talking synthetic and it seems to always be onsale at Orilley's during late Oct/Nov. Past 3 years, $25/gallon for my e420.
My truck I use Mobil or Delo 15W40 which ever is onsale. $13-16/gallon.
My 500e seems to not like the 5W40, so I use 10W40 redline. Cub Cadet I use straight HD30, unless cold weather and then it gets 15W40. Those old Kohlers run really hot in the summer, and everyone debates HD30 vs 15W40 for 100+F weather. Amsoil makes a synthetic for lawnmowers... hum.
Michael
I'm thinking in the 18 years or so that Mobil 1 has produced 0W40 they have updated the additive package.
Otherwise, why would the certify it for the AMG 6.3 481hp engine.
That's under way more stress then our 322hp (1992) M119's, right?
It is likely that the Mobil-1 0W-40 formula has indeed changed. Whether the change fixed the previous problems or not, is a different story. I remember the original discussion on this, in the early/mid 2000's, so it was about ten years ago. At the time, some people tried the Mobil-1 0W-40 and reported hydraulic lifter ticking, and increased wear metals in the oil analysis. When the same engine was switched back to Mobil-1 15W-50, the ticking stopped, and wear metals dropped. This is anecdotal and a decade old of course.
Also keep in mind that oils vary by region. The Mobil-1 formula sold in USA may be very different than the same viscosity Mobil-1 sold in Europe. I vaguely recall that it seemed Mobil was still selling the "good" stuff across the pond, but cheaped out on the US formulas. This may have changed as well.
Also keep in mind that oils vary by region. The Mobil-1 formula sold in USA may be very different than the same viscosity Mobil-1 sold in Europe. I vaguely recall that it seemed Mobil was still selling the "good" stuff across the pond, but cheaped out on the US formulas. This may have changed as well.
Mobil1 0W-40 is recommended by Porsche for their newer road cars.
And on top of that Porsche Motorsport recommends it for all their race cars(which see up to 10k rpm while downshifting,a lot of heat and load in sprint and endurance racing).
I will go with Mobil1 5W-50(which has a Porsche approval as well) for the M119,I run that oil in all BMW M-cars(except my BMW race engines).
I use those oils under the toughest conditions available and did not loose a single engine due to oil quality issues.
And on top of that Porsche Motorsport recommends it for all their race cars(which see up to 10k rpm while downshifting,a lot of heat and load in sprint and endurance racing).
I will go with Mobil1 5W-50(which has a Porsche approval as well) for the M119,I run that oil in all BMW M-cars(except my BMW race engines).
I use those oils under the toughest conditions available and did not loose a single engine due to oil quality issues.
It would be interesting to see the UOA (Used Oil Analysis) reports on the 0W-40 or 5W-50.
Mobil-1 does not offer the 5W-50 oil in USA, at least through normal retail channels. It may be available at Porsche dealerships though.
http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/MotorOil/Oils/Oils.aspx
Mobil-1 does not offer the 5W-50 oil in USA, at least through normal retail channels. It may be available at Porsche dealerships though.
http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/MotorOil/Oils/Oils.aspx
It would be interesting to see the UOA (Used Oil Analysis) reports on the 0W-40 or 5W-50.
Mobil-1 does not offer the 5W-50 oil in USA, at least through normal retail channels. It may be available at Porsche dealerships though.
http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/MotorOil/Oils/Oils.aspx
While UOA are not bad,there are way too many variables on old engines to draw a proper scientific conclusion from them.
Would only really make sense to compare two fresh rebuilt engines with different oils under the same conditions(specs built to,same fuel used,same climate,same kind of use,.....) to compare.
The Porsche race engines I see open every 50-70h running time all have normal wear on them with Mobil1.
Personally,that is good enough for me.
If you have an established trend of wear metals, consumption rate, etc over a given range of miles/kms/hours, with your present oil... then change to a new/different oil and test again under similar conditions, you can reach a scientific conclusion. Especially if you switch back to the previous oil and the UOA returns to previous levels (assuming there was any change with the new oil).
Yes, that would be ideal.
Was this with the 5W-50 oil?
The 0W-40 Mobil1 Oil is in Germany the recommended oil for nearly all AMG engines since late 1990s or very early 2000s.
The AMG engines are developed with this oil, so when Mr. Hans doing its first prototypes of a new R4, V6, V8, or V12 AMG engine, he already uses this Mobil1 0W-40 Oil, which has by the way the highest MB Approval - Blatt 229.5. ;-)
There are some sites on the internet that had factsheets what an oil is required to, to get a named Mercedes 299.5 approval - and thats preeeety tough, especially in the wear compartment. Even the german Aral Oils (Aral/BP) Website stated that the MB approvals are the highest ones to match in the industry for engine oils.
Also forget the ZDDP story, modern engine oils have much better anti-wear additives for modern metals used in modern engines, that are far superior than ZDDP (that i was told by some oil companies after my thorough deep questions towards them).
My M119 in the W140 was filled since day one with 5W-40 oil and its in great shape. For my W124 M119 i don't know, but it doesnt matter anyhow, since the engine is almost new.
I agree to Daves Statement that VI improvers are not that "good" for an oil. For very warm climates i would go for a XXW-50 up to a XXW-60 oil if available - especially if you drive more spirited often.
The AMG engines are developed with this oil, so when Mr. Hans doing its first prototypes of a new R4, V6, V8, or V12 AMG engine, he already uses this Mobil1 0W-40 Oil, which has by the way the highest MB Approval - Blatt 229.5. ;-)
There are some sites on the internet that had factsheets what an oil is required to, to get a named Mercedes 299.5 approval - and thats preeeety tough, especially in the wear compartment. Even the german Aral Oils (Aral/BP) Website stated that the MB approvals are the highest ones to match in the industry for engine oils.
Also forget the ZDDP story, modern engine oils have much better anti-wear additives for modern metals used in modern engines, that are far superior than ZDDP (that i was told by some oil companies after my thorough deep questions towards them).
My M119 in the W140 was filled since day one with 5W-40 oil and its in great shape. For my W124 M119 i don't know, but it doesnt matter anyhow, since the engine is almost new.
I agree to Daves Statement that VI improvers are not that "good" for an oil. For very warm climates i would go for a XXW-50 up to a XXW-60 oil if available - especially if you drive more spirited often.
Mercedes (and AMG I suppose) recommends Mobil1, does this mean it's the best oil? No. Of course, Mercedes and Porsche (and others) will choose Mobil1 over a family owned group V or VI oil. I just know that thanks to this thread and the recommendation for RedLine, my 10kmi oil is neither dark, nor burned that much over the period. My friend's 2007 BMW burns Mobil1 like crazy.
Of course, if I had a brand new Mercedes (and/or AMG), I would do everything at the dealer for the warranty. But that is not the case and often the dealer recommended items are not the best.
Of course, if I had a brand new Mercedes (and/or AMG), I would do everything at the dealer for the warranty. But that is not the case and often the dealer recommended items are not the best.
All I know is that for an older motor (M117 in my case) I would prefer an "old school" oil of good quality that has an additive package designed for valvetrains with high friction needs. The design of the M117 cam follower setup is very different from the more modern "bucket tappet" or "roller" setups you see on modern cars.
I would not use a modern oil with a current-generation additive package in an older engine. You cannot make assumptions until you assess what additives are really included in an oil. For example with ZDDP, for the M117 cam follower setup, I would always prefer to see an oil with 1250 ppm of ZDDP, or higher. An oil with 800 or 1000 ppm ZDDP is asking for problems with extended use. I do not trust additives that are "substitutes" for proven additives from before, because you never know if they have actually been real-world tested on older cars.
Jono may have more to add, but that is my perspective. I am not an oil geek, but I did have a lubrication related issue on my M117 due to using "modern" oils with "revised" additive packages. Since going to a proven oil 34,000 miles ago, I have not had any lubrication related issues. So ... I go with what I know.
Cheers,
Gerry
For what it's worth, I use Royal Purple 15w40 in my 1993 E500E, and Castrol
20w50 in my 1992 500E. Since taking Gerry's advice, I have always used Hengst oil filters and am glad that I did.
Jess Paul
(unrulyjess)
20w50 in my 1992 500E. Since taking Gerry's advice, I have always used Hengst oil filters and am glad that I did.
Jess Paul
(unrulyjess)
It would be interesting to see the UOA (Used Oil Analysis) reports on the 0W-40 or 5W-50.
Mobil-1 does not offer the 5W-50 oil in USA, at least through normal retail channels. It may be available at Porsche dealerships though.
http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/MotorOil/Oils/Oils.aspx
You can get Mobil 1 5W50 at your Mercedes dealer.
It's required in the SLR.
The OEMs have different priorities than we do. We want our cars to last past 250,000 miles. That is the LAST thing on their list. They run water thin oil because it helps them to squeak out that last tenth of a mile per gallon in the certification tests. Porsche wants that last tenth of a horsepower that can mean the difference between a first place finish or a second place finish, and they could care less about viscosity breakdown because the oil is only in the engine for the length of one race anyways, plus, they are running an oil cooler that is the size of Kansas.
We also need to account for the fact that the bearing clearances are a little looser at 175,000 miles than they are at 5,000 miles. Since the oil itself is actually the "bearing", not those metal shell inserts that we usually call the "bearings", we need to choose wisely. In another place at another time, GSXR and I have argued because he thought my 20W-50 oil is too thick. I can't believe some of you guys think his oil choice is too thick. It seems to me that he is staking out a happy medium, all things considered.
I do think that running 20/50 in Portland is a bit extreme though.
Sometimes in a situation like this, it's good to get back to the basics, like an owner's manual! My 93 W124 owners manual, which covers M103 powered 4MATICS, 2.8 and 3.2 HFM M104s, and 4.2 and 5.0 M119s, says 20W-50 is good down to 32F/0C, which means that the many members of this site who are in So Cal can and will do well with 20W-50. On the other hand, 10W-30 is only good up to 50F, and 5W-30 is only good up to 14F! And remember, this manual came out back in the days when oil was good! Regular oil still had lots of ZDDP in it and Mobil 1 was still top grade stuff! Since we are talking about oils in this thread that have 10,000 mile change intervals, it makes sense to run an oil that is able to handle both Summer's heat and Winter's cold, since many of us need at least a year to rack-up 10,000 miles on our baby.
Regards,
Eric
We also need to account for the fact that the bearing clearances are a little looser at 175,000 miles than they are at 5,000 miles. Since the oil itself is actually the "bearing", not those metal shell inserts that we usually call the "bearings", we need to choose wisely. In another place at another time, GSXR and I have argued because he thought my 20W-50 oil is too thick. I can't believe some of you guys think his oil choice is too thick. It seems to me that he is staking out a happy medium, all things considered.
I do think that running 20/50 in Portland is a bit extreme though.
Sometimes in a situation like this, it's good to get back to the basics, like an owner's manual! My 93 W124 owners manual, which covers M103 powered 4MATICS, 2.8 and 3.2 HFM M104s, and 4.2 and 5.0 M119s, says 20W-50 is good down to 32F/0C, which means that the many members of this site who are in So Cal can and will do well with 20W-50. On the other hand, 10W-30 is only good up to 50F, and 5W-30 is only good up to 14F! And remember, this manual came out back in the days when oil was good! Regular oil still had lots of ZDDP in it and Mobil 1 was still top grade stuff! Since we are talking about oils in this thread that have 10,000 mile change intervals, it makes sense to run an oil that is able to handle both Summer's heat and Winter's cold, since many of us need at least a year to rack-up 10,000 miles on our baby.
Regards,
Eric
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Eric,completely disagree with you regarding the racing stuff.
24h Le Mans is over 5000km on the same oil under extreme conditions without any oil change.
You will have to run a road engine multiple times more to have the same amount of sheer down..
Size of the oil cooler is not a valid point,what counts is the oil temp during the races and this is around 100 degC...
24h Le Mans is over 5000km on the same oil under extreme conditions without any oil change.
You will have to run a road engine multiple times more to have the same amount of sheer down..
Size of the oil cooler is not a valid point,what counts is the oil temp during the races and this is around 100 degC...
Everyone keeps calling 0W40 water thin.
At 212 degrees it is a 40 weight oil.
Same as a 5W 40, 10W40 or 20W40.
Just as Computers and electronics are light years ahead compared to the 90's so is engine oil technology.
The same thin happened when multi grade oils came out.
The old timers (like my dad) scoffed at them and refused to use a multi grade.
You guys sound like he did about new tech oils.
At 212 degrees it is a 40 weight oil.
Same as a 5W 40, 10W40 or 20W40.
Just as Computers and electronics are light years ahead compared to the 90's so is engine oil technology.
The same thin happened when multi grade oils came out.
The old timers (like my dad) scoffed at them and refused to use a multi grade.
You guys sound like he did about new tech oils.
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This is an interesting read from the Amsoil website.
Clearly no friend of Mobil 1, however they say something interesting. The page is slow to load, give it a second.
As more and more large oil companies switched their "synthetic" motor oils to the less expensive/more profitable Group III (3) base stocks it has become much easier to identify which are PAO based true synthetic. Of the large oil companies, only Mobil 1 Extended Performance, as of this writing (12-16-2012), is still a PAO based true synthetic.
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http://www.upmpg.com/tech_articles/motoroil_viscosity/
Clearly no friend of Mobil 1, however they say something interesting. The page is slow to load, give it a second.
As more and more large oil companies switched their "synthetic" motor oils to the less expensive/more profitable Group III (3) base stocks it has become much easier to identify which are PAO based true synthetic. Of the large oil companies, only Mobil 1 Extended Performance, as of this writing (12-16-2012), is still a PAO based true synthetic.
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http://www.upmpg.com/tech_articles/motoroil_viscosity/
So why do the oil companies even bother selling 5W-40, 10W-40, or 20W-40? If 0W-40 is the bee's knees and cat's meow, the other obsolete products should be discontinued and replaced by the superior 0W-40. In the name of progress, of course. Before answering, you might want to go back and read what I already posted about VII's and wide viscosity spreads in multi-grade oils.
That confirms what I've suspected for several years now. You can figure it out by reading between the lines on their old marketing copy, vs new. The old M-1 (from 10+ years ago) recommeded high-mile change intervals, like 15k-25k, for all variations of M-1 (back when they had colored bottle caps, and were all PAO). Now, they only say 15k, and only on the few "Extended Performance" products.
Steve Vainshtein is szvook here on the forum. 
He has since switched to Motul 300V and not looked back. He's also not using 0W-40. 
Any recommendations from sales/marketing people should be taken with a large grain of salt. They generally have to toe an official party line for various reasons. I prefer information from the technical staff, which won't get posted publicly.
He has since switched to Motul 300V and not looked back. He's also not using 0W-40. Any recommendations from sales/marketing people should be taken with a large grain of salt. They generally have to toe an official party line for various reasons. I prefer information from the technical staff, which won't get posted publicly.
How about these Motul oils, any good? My local shop stocks it.
TBN and VI are close, however the 300V does not have the detergent levels for long drain intervals.
The 8100 is a group IV POA, and the 300V is a group V Ester however.
I called Motul because I couldn't find that information online.
8100 X-cess 5W40
http://www.motul.com/system/product...iginal/8100_X-cess_5W-40_(GB).pdf?1357663396=
300V 5W40
https://www.motul.com/system/produc...original/300V Power 5W-40 (GB).pdf?1329125425
TBN and VI are close, however the 300V does not have the detergent levels for long drain intervals.
The 8100 is a group IV POA, and the 300V is a group V Ester however.
I called Motul because I couldn't find that information online.
8100 X-cess 5W40
http://www.motul.com/system/product...iginal/8100_X-cess_5W-40_(GB).pdf?1357663396=
300V 5W40
https://www.motul.com/system/produc...original/300V Power 5W-40 (GB).pdf?1329125425
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Based on Motul's recommendation for the 500E, looks like the 8100 X-cess 5W40
http://motul.lubricantadvisor.com/Advice.aspx?data=1&lang=eng&type=e95c523a0491d5fd7dd474c423dbebc1
http://motul.lubricantadvisor.com/Advice.aspx?data=1&lang=eng&type=e95c523a0491d5fd7dd474c423dbebc1
That is what I just put in mine. The weather hasn't allowed me to get it out much since the oil change.
The 300V tends to be regarded as a top-of-the-line product, and is what I'd personally choose. It's more expensive than Red Line though. The 8100 is cheaper than Red Line, and probably a better product than most of the USA-spec Mobil-1's (but it also costs a bit more than M-1).
The 8100 has a good VI, but mediocre HTHS. The 300V has better HTHS, but still a bit under Red Line. It's a tradeoff all around. I believe you'll find 300V has moly (which I personally like - most Red Line has moly too), but 8100 may not. There might be some VOA's on BITOG that will show the additive package in each.
The 8100 has a good VI, but mediocre HTHS. The 300V has better HTHS, but still a bit under Red Line. It's a tradeoff all around. I believe you'll find 300V has moly (which I personally like - most Red Line has moly too), but 8100 may not. There might be some VOA's on BITOG that will show the additive package in each.
I used a turkey baster to remove the oil left behind after removing the filter.
The 8100 has a good VI, but mediocre HTHS. The 300V has better HTHS, but still a bit under Red Line. It's a tradeoff all around. I believe you'll find 300V has moly (which I personally like - most Red Line has moly too), but 8100 may not. There might be some VOA's on BITOG that will show the additive package in each.
Well, the benchmark for HTHS is 3.8, so I wouldn't call 3.7 mediocre
But unless you plan on changing the more expensive 300V at 5000 mile intervals,
you need the detergents and additive package of the street car based 8100 as recommended by Motul
I drive my 400E about 8000 miles a year, so once a year is perfect.
Race oils are made to be run hard at the track, and are changed as a rule every track day.
Hence the lack of detergents and extended drain interval additives.
They don't even recommend using the 300V in the 500E at all for street use, I asked.
I think I'll be OK with the group IV 8100 5W40, especially over the Mobil 1 0W40 I've been using.
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It's not bad of course, but the Red Line 10W-40 (and 5W-40) are both 4.4. Amsoil 10W-40 AME is 4.3, their 5W-40's are 3.7/3.8. Still, the Red Line has moly, and Amoil & M-1 do not. On a side note, most M-1 spec sheets do not show HTHS.
Better let Steve know about that, since he's been using 300V.
The 8100 5W-40 should be an improvement over the M-1 0W-40, IMO.
