GRAF E500E water pumps on sale at FCP Euro (Aug-2018)

[gerryvz]

Just saw that E500E water pumps made by Graf are on sale at FCP Euro, for $50.24. This is a "clearance" price.

Not a bad opportunity to get a decent aftermarket quality pump at a decent price. Looks like it comes with appropriate gaskets, as well.

Mercedes Water Pump - Graf 1192001501A

For reference, AutohauZ is selling this same pump for $79.13, and the MB list price for it is $279.

Cheers,
Gerry

 

[Jlaa]

Thanks Gerry. Please let us know more about your process. How is it that you came to know that FCP Euro is offering a clearance price on the GRAF water pump? Do you have some web crawler that somehow extracts 124 part numbers from WIS or something?

Or some other type of system that causes you to look for water pump deals on a daily basis? I am really amazed that you somehow randomly discovered this.

Or perhaps you look for water pumps because you can't bring yourself to slap "PORSCHE" emblems (air-cooled) emblems on your wasserpumper?

 

[jhodg5ck]

FWIW, I stick w/ the Genuine pumps. If you do go aftermarket take the time to check the back spacing of the impeller to the housing. I find it varies quite a bit from pump to pump. Most are in spec but Some are not and that can lead to some nasty frustration when you put a new pump in and temps do weird things subsequently.

oh, you'll want to have a hydraulic press around to squeeze that impeller down..levering it up can be a bit tricky..just try to get a Solid purchase on two sides when raising it up.

jono

 

[Jlaa]

How does this GRAF pump look wrt the back spacing of the impeller to the housing? I couldn't resist the sale.
Note that the price @ FCP Euro is back up now.

 

[jhodg5ck]

I can't put my feeler gauge into the picture so it's kinda hard for me to say.....to say it's a fine adjustment would be an understatement.
Spec is in the service manual, don't have it in front of me right this moment.

jono

 

[JC220]

How does this GRAF pump look wrt the back spacing of the impeller to the housing? I couldn't resist the sale.
Note that the price @ FCP Euro is back up now.

Can you recall if this Graf pump came with gaskets in the box?

It was Graf pa613 I ordered. Facelift pump. Some online pics show it with gaskets and other pics without gaskets.

EDIT - never mind I have checked more and see that it should contain the new gaskets in the box. I ordered 2x of these pumps today so I'll find out next week what they are like when they arrive

 

[gerryvz]

Hi JC:

There were two different models of water pump for the 119.97x models. According to the Pee-Pee system, the breakpoint was engine 10204/10205 in the M119.974 (E500), so for the E500E this would have been a very late cutoff in the production run. Thus, most E500Es would run the early style pump.

I have a spare pump, a Graf PA578, as pictured. This is a spare for my E500, as a replacement for factory pump 119 200 15 01 (which is superseded from 119 200 09 01). This is the correct pump for my car, which has engine number 8486.



As pictured, my PA578 **did** come with o-rings and a water pump gasket. However, as you can also see from the photos, I ordered (separately) a factory gasket, made by one of my favorite OEMs, Elring) and will use that when I need it, not the "included" gasket, which I don't think is as good of quality as the factory Elring gasket. But yes, the PA578 did come with gasket and o-rings.

Your pump, the Graf PA613, is also spec'd for V-8 models, but it is a different SKU than the one I have. The PA613 is the replacement for the "later" version of the M119, which would be found on very late E500s, as well as the SL500s and S500s/420s probably from the 1995 models onward (would have to check the engine number vs. the Pee-Pee notation). From what I can see online, and given my experience with the similar PA578, I think it is very safe to assume that the gasket and o-rings would come in the box. However, for prudence, I'd still order the factory gasket.

Also, I happen to have a Graf PA610 water pump in my parts stock. This is the pump for the later M104 models (and for my 1995 G-wagen). This pump DOES NOT have any gasket in the box, though it DOES have two packets of o-rings, as pictured.



Cheers,
Gerry

 

[JC220]

Hi JC:

There were two different models of water pump for the 119.97x models. According to the Pee-Pee system, the breakpoint was engine 10204/10205 in the M119.974 (E500), so for the E500E this would have been a very late cutoff in the production run. Thus, most E500Es would run the early style pump.

I have a spare pump, a Graf PA578, as pictured. This is a spare for my E500, as a replacement for factory pump 119 200 15 01 (which is superseded from 119 200 09 01). This is the correct pump for my car, which has engine number 8486.

View attachment 92486 View attachment 92487 View attachment 92488 View attachment 92489 View attachment 92490 View attachment 92491

As pictured, my PA578 **did** come with o-rings and a water pump gasket. However, as you can also see from the photos, I ordered (separately) a factory gasket, made by one of my favorite OEMs, Elring) and will use that when I need it, not the "included" gasket, which I don't think is as good of quality as the factory Elring gasket. But yes, the PA578 did come with gasket and o-rings.

Your pump, the Graf PA613, is also spec'd for V-8 models, but it is a different SKU than the one I have. The PA613 is the replacement for the "later" version of the M119, which would be found on very late E500s, as well as the SL500s and S500s/420s probably from the 1995 models onward (would have to check the engine number vs. the Pee-Pee notation). From what I can see online, and given my experience with the similar PA578, I think it is very safe to assume that the gasket and o-rings would come in the box. However, for prudence, I'd still order the factory gasket.

Also, I happen to have a Graf PA610 water pump in my parts stock. This is the pump for the later M104 models (and for my 1995 G-wagen). This pump DOES NOT have any gasket in the box, though it DOES have two packets of o-rings, as pictured.

View attachment 92492 View attachment 92493

Cheers,
Gerry

Thanks for the info and pics Gerry! Very good stuff

The late style pump is applicable for my 1995 S500 motor and my 1992 500E which I retrofitted a late style pump to a couple years back.

The S500s water pump did not survive vapour blasting it seems as it is dripping. Hence why I ordered 2x. One to go on that car now and one spare on the shelf which fits both my m119 cars

 

[JC220]

As a footnote - apologies to any members clicking this today thinking these pumps are on sale

 

[gerryvz]

As a footnote - apologies to any members clicking this today thinking these pumps are on sale

Per the original link, the pumps are only $70, so still not a horrible deal (if you get them from FCP Yurro).

Alternately, you can get same "early" pump from AutohauZ for $70, or the late pump at AutohauZ for $85.

I would NOT use a Meyle, URO, Saleri, or other unknown branded water pump. If you go aftermarket, ONLY Graf or Laso.

 

[JC220]

Per the original link, the pumps are only $70, so still not a horrible deal (if you get them from FCP Yurro).

Alternately, you can get same "early" pump from AutohauZ for $70, or the late pump at AutohauZ for $85.

I would NOT use a Meyle or other unknown branded water pump. If you go aftermarket, ONLY Graf or Laso.

I bought them on sale in UK for £56 each. However it appears I bought the last 2x as they now show no stock.

Hepu are also high quality german made M119 water pumps. (I know this because my 500E has a Hepu pump) I believe Graf is made in Italy but still good.

Yes I would Never install any other lesser brand of warerpump.

 

[gerryvz]

I am aware of HEPU, and yes I would also add them to the quality water pump aftermarket brand list. However, they are much more difficult to find here in the US as compared to Graf and Laso.

Graf is an Italian company, though I do not know if their pumps are (still) made in Italy. I have a sneaking suspicion that they may not all be made in Italy/Europe anymore.

 

[nocfn]

I agree on the Laso or Graf. I replaced the C126 with Laso and used new bolts as well.

Two questions for when I need to do this on the M119: A - should I use new bolts and B - Should we use Anaerobic sealant on them?

 

[gsxr]

Don't forget you can still get OE/Genuine remans for ~$170 if returning the core:

Remanufactured-Waterpump 119-200-15-01-80 | MB OEM Parts

119-200-15-01-80 - Remanufactured-Waterpump

www.mboemparts.com

Search Results | MB OEM Parts

www.mboemparts.com

 

[JC220]

I bought them on sale in UK for £56 each. However it appears I bought the last 2x as they now show no stock.

Hepu are also high quality german made M119 water pumps. (I know this because my 500E has a Hepu pump) I believe Graf is made in Italy but still good.

Yes I would Never install any other lesser brand of warerpump.

Scratch that - ordered those 2 pumps and for the 3rd time in the past week had the order cancelled because the items were not in stock - despite their (and other vendors) websites showing them in stock. Sigh...

Ordered 1no INA waterpump now so I'll see if I get a fourth order cancelled in a day or two. It seems m119 waterpumps are not ordered very often given the difficulty I have had the past week.

 

[JC220]

Hi JC:

There were two different models of water pump for the 119.97x models. According to the Pee-Pee system, the breakpoint was engine 10204/10205 in the M119.974 (E500), so for the E500E this would have been a very late cutoff in the production run. Thus, most E500Es would run the early style pump.

I have a spare pump, a Graf PA578, as pictured. This is a spare for my E500, as a replacement for factory pump 119 200 15 01 (which is superseded from 119 200 09 01). This is the correct pump for my car, which has engine number 8486.

View attachment 92486 View attachment 92487 View attachment 92488 View attachment 92489 View attachment 92490 View attachment 92491

As pictured, my PA578 **did** come with o-rings and a water pump gasket. However, as you can also see from the photos, I ordered (separately) a factory gasket, made by one of my favorite OEMs, Elring) and will use that when I need it, not the "included" gasket, which I don't think is as good of quality as the factory Elring gasket. But yes, the PA578 did come with gasket and o-rings.

Your pump, the Graf PA613, is also spec'd for V-8 models, but it is a different SKU than the one I have. The PA613 is the replacement for the "later" version of the M119, which would be found on very late E500s, as well as the SL500s and S500s/420s probably from the 1995 models onward (would have to check the engine number vs. the Pee-Pee notation). From what I can see online, and given my experience with the similar PA578, I think it is very safe to assume that the gasket and o-rings would come in the box. However, for prudence, I'd still order the factory gasket.

Also, I happen to have a Graf PA610 water pump in my parts stock. This is the pump for the later M104 models (and for my 1995 G-wagen). This pump DOES NOT have any gasket in the box, though it DOES have two packets of o-rings, as pictured.

View attachment 92492 View attachment 92493

Cheers,
Gerry

It is interesting to me that Gerrys Graf waterpump has Metelli markings and stickers on the box. Metelli is an Italian Water pump manufacturer so I suspect they also produce the Graf Pumps.

Gerry - are there any cast brand name or part number markings on your Graf M119 water pump?

Ramdon example but you can see the Metelli box of a waterpump:

 

[gerryvz]

I believe that Graf is actually a division and/or brand name of Metelli s.p.A.

There are ZERO marks, numbers or letters cast into the body of the pump.

The clearance of the impeller to the housing looks very tight, though I haven't put a feeler gauge into it. It appears to be under 1 mm.

 

[JC220]

I believe that Graf is actually a division and/or brand name of Metelli s.p.A.

There are ZERO marks, numbers or letters cast into the body of the pump.

The clearance of the impeller to the housing looks very tight, though I haven't put a feeler gauge into it. It appears to be under 1 mm.

Although the Graf pump order was cancelled on me I could order a Metelli Water Pump 24-0613 - so I did Along with the INA pump. I will inspect both pumps when they arrive and share findings here. I bet the Metelli will be made in Italy and pretty much identical to the Graf. And the INA hopefully will be German made.

One additional pump will serve as a spare for if and when I take one of my m119 cars on a long distance journey. It surprised me just how hard it is to source an M119 water pump in the UK. (I couldn't at all unless I accepted a Febi or Meyle . 2 week lead time from europe)

 

[JC220]

So both waterpumps turned up today. INA and Metelli. The INA cost more than the Metelli:



Best laugh is (On Me) the INA is identical to the Metelli pump in every way. Except for the little INA ink stamp mind you. Metelli pump says made in Italy on the box. INA has no country of origin or test sticker!! but is clearly from the same factory. Identical gaskets- O ring packets everything a carbon copy





I bet @gerryvz Graf pump is same markings? So dont buy INA - what a rip off!! EDIT Gerrys pump is the early version perhaps not directly compatible to these as it will be a different casting. But I have no doubt the Graf pump is from this same factory!

This is a clear demonstration of the parts loto we play all the time when carefully choosing parts for our cars. Seeing this now which pump would you buy!?

I may return the INA pump for a refund since this feels like I paid extra for a ink stamp and box Get another Mettelli instead as spare

 

[gerryvz]

My pump appears to be identical with the Metelli-branded pump, yes.

 

[nocfn]

as is mine...

 

[Jlaa]

FWIW, I stick w/ the Genuine pumps. If you do go aftermarket take the time to check the back spacing of the impeller to the housing. I find it varies quite a bit from pump to pump. Most are in spec but Some are not and that can lead to some nasty frustration when you put a new pump in and temps do weird things subsequently.

oh, you'll want to have a hydraulic press around to squeeze that impeller down..levering it up can be a bit tricky..just try to get a Solid purchase on two sides when raising it up.

jono

How does this GRAF pump look wrt the back spacing of the impeller to the housing? I couldn't resist the sale.
Note that the price @ FCP Euro is back up now.

I can't put my feeler gauge into the picture so it's kinda hard for me to say.....to say it's a fine adjustment would be an understatement.
Spec is in the service manual, don't have it in front of me right this moment.

jono

The clearance of the impeller to the housing looks very tight, though I haven't put a feeler gauge into it. It appears to be under 1 mm.

I just measured the clearance between the impeller and the housing - I got 0.38mm. Putting this here for future reference.

 

[Jlaa]

Got this from a German language E500E Group:

"I have bought both the febi pump and the Graf pump… the difference between them is otherworldly… the way the inner waterguides are machined, the gapping between the impeller and housing… really crazy."

 

[gsxr]

Got this from a German language E500E Group:

I have bought both the febi pump and the Graf pump… the difference between them is otherworldly… the way the inner waterguides are machined, the gapping between the impeller and housing… really crazy.

Any further details? Were they implying Graf was better, or Febi was better...?

 

[Jlaa]

Any further details? Were they implying Graf was better, or Febi was better...?

Oh yes, sorry, the GRAF was better

 

[chicky]

IMHO, Febi Bilstein is a "reboxer" of parts that they buy in bulk from different manufacturers, who have maybe "closing out sale" for parts.

If a parts supplier were to try and sell me the Febi Bilstein boxed part, I would open it and really give it a good look see, try to look of ground down manufacturers castings.

When I refurbished most of the external parts of my engine in 2008, I remember using Graf for my water pump ... fast forward to 2023, it's still working properly. I remember reading on 500Ecstasy, an article on upgrading the cooling system of the M119 engine, and there were pictures of the water pump internals from OE and the upgraded water pump, which I think was OEM. With the pictures in my hand, I asked my HK supplier to bring out the different water pumps he carried in stock for the M119 ... true enough, the Graf brand had better internals ... bought it among the other parts that I needed.

Wishing all forum members the best for the New Year

 

[gerryvz]

I installed a Graf replacement pump on my E500 in 2020, when I did my Engine Bay refresh. I did some detailed comparisons between the stock/OE pump and the Graf. The stock pump casting was nicer/cleaner, but the Graf felt of good quality. I have plenty of photos of them in the thread. My original pump had not failed (I still have it) -- I just proactively replaced it as it had to come off the engine anyway.

I also have a spare Graf pump for my G-wagen's M104 engine. The G-specific 104.996 version of the M104 uses a special version of the water pump that is slightly different than the pedestrian US-spec E320 104.992 engine version, except the very later engines which did share the G320 pump.