help: Please explain how the traction control and ABS work together..

[samiam44]

Ok,

I'm trying to understand how these 2 systems work together- the logic mind you or hiarchy of controls. Does the ASD get the signal from the ABS module. I'm assuming throttle position backfieds from the LH module?

Any knowledge or point me to the right place to read more would be appreciated.


Michael

 

[whipplem104]

ABS is just using wheel speed sensors during braking to measure lockup of the wheels for pulsing the brakes. The same wheel sensors are used to measure for traction control but instead of unlocking a braking wheel it applies the brakes to the wheel that is spinning to fast. If braking alone can not reduce the wheel slip reduced throttle will be implemented. The pump system is a bit more complicated to explain but that is the basic strategy. Steering angle is also accounted for in traction control to tell the correct wheel speed when turning. Later on newer cars, other sensors such as yaw and lateral acceleration are used. As far as things go you can still have ABS if traction control is inop for reasons that ABS is not effected by.

 

[samiam44]

So is the data signals go to a common bus or do they go through the abs module and feed the asd?

W124.036

M

 

[gsxr]

All 4 wheel speed signals go to the ABS/ASR module. All functions are combined into the same module.

ASD is not used on the 500E. ASD is a hydraulic locking system for limited-slip diffs, primarily offered as an option on diesel cars in USA, although some gas cars have it as well. ASD is not traction control, it does not brake either rear wheel, and it does not reduce engine power. It flashes a light when wheelspin is detected and locks the diff, and the entire system disengages above ~19mph. Completely, totally different than ASR.

Please read these docs which explain the systems in more detail:
http://www.w124performance.com/docs/mb/other/ASD-ASR-4MATIC.pdf
http://www.w124performance.com/docs/mb/other/ASD-ASR-4MATIC-ADS.pdf

 

[jouniu]

Some technical documents added. It is quite complex system.

 

[500AMM]

ABS is just using wheel speed sensors during braking to measure lockup of the wheels for pulsing the brakes. The same wheel sensors are used to measure for traction control but instead of unlocking a braking wheel it applies the brakes to the wheel that is spinning to fast. If braking alone can not reduce the wheel slip reduced throttle will be implemented. The pump system is a bit more complicated to explain but that is the basic strategy. Steering angle is also accounted for in traction control to tell the correct wheel speed when turning. Later on newer cars, other sensors such as yaw and lateral acceleration are used. As far as things go you can still have ABS if traction control is inop for reasons that ABS is not effected by.

Where is the steering angle signal picked up?

-a-

 

[Klink]

Where is the steering angle signal picked up?

-a-

Later version traction control systems, most notably "ESP" have a steering angle sensor in the steering column. The ASR/ABS system as incorporated in the 124.036 cars does not have any direct steering angle sensing device. Individual wheel speed differences against a calculated average speed are used to account for most of the critical variables.

 

[Taxi Driver]

Where is the steering angle signal picked up?

-a-

Arnt, now we are out on the Deep end, and far from the 124 036 and into '97-ish when the ESP button came.
For an example My 1996 E50 only has the ASR but with the off button, the 1997 my. was from then on the ESP
system updated. As a side note, the 96year only ASR E420-E50 would be suitable as a donor for a full ME/722.6
convertion.

 

[500AMM]

Later version traction control systems, most notably "ESP" have a steering angle sensor in the steering column. The ASR/ABS system as incorporated in the 124.036 cars does not have any direct steering angle sensing device. Individual wheel speed differences against a calculated average speed are used to account for most of the critical variables.

Arnt, now we are out on the Deep end, and far from the 124 036 and into '97-ish when the ESP button came.
For an example My 1996 E50 only has the ASR but with the off button, the 1997 my. was from then on the ESP system updated.
As a side note, the 96year only ASR E420-E50 would be suitable as a donor for a full ME/722.6 convertion.

Thanks for the confirmation, guys!
I was just curious since I haven't seen any movable electronic mechanism connected to the steering on the .036 besides the horn and telescopic steering column.

A complete ME/722.6 conversion sounds interesting, especially because it includes the 5 sp. transmission, which exclude the need for an auxilliary controller. Does the ME system allow reprogramming?

 

[gsxr]

... My 1996 E50 only has the ASR but with the off button, the 1997 my. was from then on the ESP system updated. As a side note, the 96year only ASR E420-E50 would be suitable as a donor for a full ME/722.6 convertion.

I believe the 210.072 came with ASR as standard equipment from start of production. ESP was an optional upgrade on 1997 (USA) model years [of the 210.072 being discussed here], not sure about 1996 [210.072] as the 210.072 was not imported to USA in 1996 (USA model year).

A complete ME/722.6 conversion sounds interesting, especially because it includes the 5 sp. transmission, which exclude the need for an auxilliary controller. Does the ME system allow reprogramming?

The 210.072 (M119 + 722.6) used ME 1.0 engine management. Does it allow reprogramming? Well, sort of, yes. But there are no socketed EPROM chips, you have to de-solder chips if you want to read and/or modify them. The ME 1.0 system was not used very long and AFAIK, almost nobody can "tune" or "reflash" them. RENNtech didn't do it themselves on their 210.072 conversions to 6.0L, Hartmut said they had to get AMG Germany to reprogram the modules for them. The EPC has zero info on the 210.072 with 6.0L engines, it only shows the 5.0L (E50) information.

And, these systems include DAS which means if you wan to swap the entire powertrain + computers, you will also need to get the keys with transponders from the donor car, transponder reader/ring, DAS module, and associated wiring to connect DAS to ME modules. An early 210.072 (1996, probably before chassis A200000 or so) may have an earlier version of DAS without the transponders.

 

[Taxi Driver]

A complete ME/722.6 conversion sounds interesting, especially because it includes the 5 sp. transmission, and exclude the need for an auxilliary controller. Does the ME system allow reprogramming? "

100% ME+722.6 BUT I Think you have to use the COMPLETE wiring loom boxes AC controll, ign. lock, etc. etc. not to upset the computers, simply
the Electronics does have to belive it it still sitting in a W210 E420 or E50.

Yes the ME is programmable fuel and ignition, the 722.6 EGS boxes follow the valvebody specs. Thats as good as it gets and
more than suffice for the 036 and the M119. Dream on, extrapolating the 500E500 will give you multipple orga...opportunities
and be Worth it? You could buy one E50/60 W210 but that would not be the same thing, IT would lack the 036 AURA IMHO

 

[Taxi Driver]

"I believe the 210.072 came with ASR as standard equipment from start of production. ESP was an optional upgrade on 1997 (USA) model years, not sure about 1996 as the 210.072 was not imported to USA in 1996 (USA model year). "

Yes and no, 1997 the W140 got the ESP standardized BAS and all, 1998 the W168 A class got the ESP/BAS but with ASR shut off only, the ESP stayed on
the C43 ESP/BAS with an ESP off button (youre on your own now) make it a lethal weapon.

About the E50 wich I am familiar with, first my. as mine only ASR, no nothing else, 1997 all I have seen has the ESP/BAS ( and are not therefore
suitable as a ME/722.6 platform) convertion.

 

[gsxr]

Previous post edited for clarity.

 

[fudgitive]

About the E50 wich I am familiar with, first my. as mine only ASR, no nothing else, 1997 all I have seen has the ESP/BAS ( and are not therefore
suitable as a ME/722.6 platform) convertion.

100% ME+722.6 BUT I Think you have to use the COMPLETE wiring loom boxes AC controll, ign. lock, etc. etc. not to upset the computers, simply
the Electronics does have to belive it it still sitting in a W210 E420 or E50.

My '97 E60 has only an ASR button Roger.

Getting the instrument cluster to function properly even after swapping all of the electrics over might still be an issue.

Interesting that we have three W210 owners here in this thread all wishing their later drive train into a W124. Driving any kind of 124 in decent shape is indeed a soulful experience, personally I think the dash design and the view over the bonnet doesn't get any better than in a 124 (either as the driver or passenger).

 

[Taxi Driver]

Fudg, the E 60 of yours may be built on a '96 E50 or be an early '97, the E60 W210 were a bit special, you can also Think
of the SL60, how about them, sharing the same hardware?

Offcourse We want to enhance the 036'es a bit, as there are NO later MB to fill that purpouse, not any IMO.

You simply can not, get enough 124 036 when once youre bitten..... solid, feel, design, stance, really a "one off"

 

[gsxr]

Interesting that we have three W210 owners here in this thread all wishing their later drive train into a W124..

It's primarily the 722.6 tranny that is enticing. That said, a VERY WELL built 722.3 is almost as good, if not equal. Problem is, most 722.3's are either worn and not shifting as good as they should, or are rebuilt but NOT to Klink/Jono standards. I do love the 722.6 with factory TCU but the conversion would be soooo much work, and the aftermarket TCU's are not quite at factory levels of seamlessness. Having owned several of both, I think it would be better to invest in a top-notch "blueprinted" rebuild of the 722.3, or at least that option would be more cost-effective.

I've got a W210 as a daily driver and it's just not the same as a W124. The W210 is ok... but just OK. The M119+722.6 covers a lot of W210 sins. Especially in E60 form!

 

[500AMM]

So, the tiny hope for a less demanding 722.6 conversion + ignition upgrade is not that bright though.
Based on the facts in the latest posts, the ME conversion doesn't appear to be the way to go since it doesn't allow for proper tuning. Standalone appears to be the only choice, and aftermarket TCU for the 722.6 conversion.