* Let's have a test and tune day in So. Cal.

[400Eric]

Hey! Where's the track day updates!

Track was pure shit. Idiots weren't keeping the track clean/dry. I swear I hook up much better on the streets. I was so desperate for traction I even put my 225/60-16s back on but I still couldn't hook very well. It's a shame too cause this could have been and should have been our best ever E/T day cause we had the best D/A we've had there since that day a little over two years ago when I made the mistake of taking Benzer 1 to a track day. So once again a lost opportunity. Only got a 14.58 best this time. Justin didn't get out of the 13s. He is supposed to post a cool video of me spanking a truck (My favorite prey). In the meantime, here is a cool video of me spanking a 940 Volvo: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t28ZYdfrMVs

It looks like I was snoozing at the light but I wasn't. (That's one thing I don't do.) The 940 driver red lighted big time (by about .2 second). Still spanked him anyway.

There's another video from that day floating around the web of me going up in smoke and spinning big time against our old friend the S70 but we aren't going to bother linking that one. Even the S70 driver admitted that the lane I was in on that run stunk big time. I still out ETed his best E/T of that day on my run against the 940 though. There is also yet another video floating around the web of a run from a year ago that I had forgotten about showing me up against a 240 Volvo that was also a kitty litter in my lane run. Sure would be nice if we had more of my good runs on video!
Regards, Eric

 

[gsxr]

That's always the catch... as D/A improves and power increases, traction becomes more of a problem (even if they are keeping the track clean). Was your slowdown all at the launch (60' times)? How about trap speed?

Also, what was up with Sauce-man's car? Traction issues with drag radials, or something else?

 

[400Eric]

My one decent run of the day was the one time I hooked OK and it led to an utterly average run in every way. I guess those bigger heavier rims/tires took away what the cooler air was giving me but, again, they wouldn't have even been on the car if I had been hooking well with my smaller ones like I usually do.
60' 2.373
1/8 9.564 @77.52
1/4 14.582 @ 97.79

The others were true crap tractionless runs not even worth trying to analyze. Although the run against the truck is still cool cause I still beat it despite a rotten 2.801 60' time. (I out R/Ted him and ran a 15.102 to his 15.262. It was a great come from behind win!) To illustrate how bad things were, that 2.801 was my second best 60' of the day! (Sauceman, please get that video posted!)

The Sauceman is in denial. He wasn't hooking cause the track idiots weren't keeping the track clean/dry. I'm not really clear on what he's thinking his difficulty was but I know it was the track. Honestly, they just weren't keeping it dry enough. Too many people, even the Sauceman, were/are making matters worse by driving through the bleach box rather than driving around it and then backing back up to it. I've talked to the S.M. at length about how he's needlessly wetting his front tires by driving them through the box and then carrying that water up to the starting line for his rear tires to slip and slide in. (Also leaves behind some water for the poor slobs that come after him.) Then we get the lame front drive cars that, by their very nature, also drag a lot of water up to the line with their rear wheels and deposit it right there where your rear tires are gonna be. The S.M. thinks I'm making a big deal over nothing but on a cooler day like this one was it is a big deal cause the track was staying wet. Maybe he'll believe you if you tell him.

The S.M. did get to spank that Turbo BMW 135i that had spanked him (and me) before when he was still having teething problems with the secret sauce. I got that run on video too for you all to see but the S.M. accidentally erased it. He says it wasn't a good video anyways cause the BMW had serious traction problems (which I have NEVER seen him have before. Gee, could it be that I"m not the only one who wasn't hooking?) but I say it's OK and fair play since the only reason why he beat the S.M. the last time was because the S.M. was having problems so it all averages out. (I've never seen that BMW run better than a low 13. On the two runs against me he ran 13.3s.)

I'm just peeved cause that U.C. 14.2 was within reach that day. We don't get many cool days like that one. I want that 14.2 so I can call this car done for now and get to work on Benzer 4! How about that video though Dave? You like? I thoroughly enjoyed spanking that Volvo cause he has another one that has spanked me in the past. Some of those things can be pretty stout!

Oh, one more thing, I want to clarify that Benzer 1's trip to the dragstrip was a little over one year ago, not two. That day, and this one we just had, stand out as being the best D/A days by far that I have seen in the over two years that I have been going there.
Regards, Eric

 

[400Eric]

"First run it smoked the tires badly after starting, had to lift off and get back into it. Eric's mercedes 400e in the left lane smoked them too. It was heavily overcast and cold (for socal). Lots of cars were having traction problems especially in the first round."

The 940 driver posted our time slips on the Volvo site and I'm trying to copy/paste them with no success. The only thing that made the trip over to here is his commentary on our first run where he ran a 17.668 to my 17.139. My traction was so bad on that run that it even showed up in my reaction time. Still beat him though. The only thing I would add is that the traction problems continued for the rest of the day with the possible exception of the runs that came right after the lunch break when the track had a chance to dry out. Again I assert that the weather wasn't as much of a factor as the fact that people were dragging water to the starting line was. Then add in the fact that there was a serious lack of clean-up on the starting line and you get what we had. The weather was only a factor in the fact that the track requires more diligent clean-up and more diligent driver behavior when it is cooler. It wasn't that cold anyways. (The range ran from about 55 degrees to about 60 degrees.) There are tracks and racers all across and up and down the country that have had and continue to have very successful race days in 45 degree (and lower) weather. That's when the best E/Ts occur! (Check DragTimes!)

Anyways, those who have a powerful hankering to see two of my time slips of the day can see them here: http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthrea ... 418&page=8 at post number 193. At the very next post is a video of my best run of the day (the one I linked a few posts back).
Regards, Eric

 

[400Eric]

I forgot to remind you all that today was the next day! I was really on the fence about going. I only made up my mind to go last night. Full report is coming soon. In the meantime, enjoy this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BLpzaOVu0rU
Regards, Eric

 

[gsxr]

About driving through the waterbox. I don't like this either, and where possible I drive around the waterbox and back up to the edge so the rear tires are just into the water. However at some tracks this is not possible and you are forced to drive through the water. Mission Raceway is one track where there is no other option than to pull through the water. When I was there in September, I cringed every time, worried about the front tires dragging water up to the starting line, causing wheelspin and making my life miserable. To my surprise, I had not even a squeak over the 4 days of racing. Both cars hooked up perfectly EVERY time, despite a couple of poor burnouts. Meanwhile at my home track, I've had occasional traction issues (with the same tires) despite driving around the water and doing serious burnouts.

I believe that the track prep has far more effect (like, 90%) than the water (which might be 10% of the issue). If the starting line isn't clean, dry, and sprayed with VHT (or similar sticky juice)... you're gonna have problems. Especially if ambient temps are cold. Maybe the northeast tracks are used to this and prep for it better, wouldn't surprise me that a SoCal track didn't compensate enough for the low ambient temps. Good tracks will have the starting line crew mopping the water off the launch pad with mops after EVERY car. Some will even hold the mop under the exhaust tips while staging to keep condensation off the track - got a photo of that somewhere.

On a side note, if the low ambient temps were really making a lot more power, you would see this as increased trap speed even with the poor launch and slower ET's. Also remember that cool air won't do squat if the barometric pressure is low; you'll get more power with high pressure and warm temps than with low pressure and cool temps. The DA numbers don't always tell the whole story; they are a rough guideline only. Zero wheelspin is required for a low ET, but you can spin quite a bit and still have a record high trap speed despite running a 15+.

 

[400Eric]

So you are saying though that given the choice, all other things being equal, especially when the track "workers" aren't working very hard at keeping the track dry on a cool, mostly overcast day, it is better to drive around the waterbox and then back back up to it, right? Just want to be sure that nobody misinterprets or improperly "spins" your post.

I know I need to find out what the Barr. Pressure was that day and for this newer day we just had as well. Don't forget though that in my desperate attempt at finding traction I put the super tall, heavy 225/60-16s back on the back. I think that is a 27.25" tall tire where a 25" tire is supposed to be. Surely making my too tall effective rear gearing even taller didn't help E/Ts or my MPH. I'm sure that this little 4.2 reaches a point at some point where continuing to increase the overall effective final drive ratio will have a detrimental effect on even the MPH.

Yes, you can run a 15 and still have a very high MPH. My wheelspin infected 15.102 run against the Silverado still netted me a 97.86 MPH but you do reach a point where the wheelspin can be bad enough to adversely affect the MPH too. On my first run against the 940, the one that I posted his account of (as well as mine) above (but no video of that run), I ran a 17.139 @ 93.73.

What did you think of those videos? (The good 940 run and the Altima SE R run.)
Regards, Eric

 

[400Eric]

The report:

I got 5 runs in this time, and that's even with them closing the lanes down earlier than they did last time. (Which I absolutely hate. Just as the air is starting to get nice and cool they close the lanes.) That's also in spite of me getting there much later than normal (about 11 AM). The reason of course is because turnout was lower this time just like I said it would be. You can't tick people off without it having an adverse effect on your turn-out. Maybe they'll learn that someday. Justin and Casey didn't go either.

It was too darn hot, my car's thermometer said 82 but it seemed hotter than that. I know if we look it up on DragTimes it's gonna say the high was around 75 but it's always that way with DragTimes showing a cooler temp than what it really was. Most folks don't know that those DragTimes temps actually come from the airport at Ontario, not the track itself. I don't know why that track is so much warmer than the airport. With the warm temps power was down but traction was up so it wound up being a wash, with me running mid 14s again. I did get my now legendary consistency back. Just like on 04/03/10, my fastest and my slowest of my 5 runs were all within a tenth of a second of each other (14.467 to 14.566 vs. the 14.487 to 14.580 of the 4 runs of 04/03/10). Heck, even all 9 runs of both of those days are still only separated by about a tenth. Now if only I could get my R/Ts more consistent, I might could have a serious bracket race operation going! BTW, even though I'm not too thrilled with my E/Ts this time, that 14.467 is actually this car's new third best E/T of all time, beating out a 14.476 that was, not too long ago, this car's best all time E/T that stood for about a year, from 5/09 till 5/10, and that one was obtained on a cooler day with a decent tailwind. All in all not a bad day.
Regards, Eric

 

[gsxr]

So you are saying ... it is better to drive around the waterbox and then back back up to it, right?

That is 100% correct, but it's not possible at every racetrack. However when it's an option, I always do it.

27" rear tires wouldn't help your ET but since they're wider it might help traction. Should show up on the 60' times. As I've told Justin repeatedly, the only thing that made a HUGE improvement in traction at the launch is LSD. Your peg-leg diffs are a real hinderance at a track with marginal surface prep. I'm assuming you are dropping your tire pressure to ~20psi (±2psi), if not then that's the next required step.

Videos look cool! BTW, are you still running the '92 / 013- EZL?

 

[400Eric]

At the track yes, but not on the street yet cause I don't want to use the paste and "paste" it in place until I've had a chance to test it in Benzer 4.

I thought I was supposed to drop the pressure to 25? Now you are saying 20?

Yes, I know I need an LSD. Can I do a LSD 2.24? In this car's defense though, this is the quickest peg leg car I have ever owned!
Regards, Eric

 

[gsxr]

At the track yes, but not on the street yet cause I don't want to use the paste and "paste" it in place until I've had a chance to test it in Benzer 4.

Cool. BTW, I found one for sale for <$100 if you want to buy one (and return mine), or if you wanted a second one... price ain't bad!

I thought I was supposed to drop the pressure to 25? Now you are saying 20?

You want the pressure as high as possible without wheelspin, but if you're spinning, you gotta drop the pressure. With street tires you really don't want to go below 19-20psi though. If you're still at 25, yes, drop to ~20. Also make sure you're using an accurate gauge. I've had good results with AccuTire digitals, the one for $8 at Amazon is the best bang for the buck, IMO.

Yes, I know I need an LSD. Can I do a LSD 2.24?

Yes, but it won't be cheap. You can special order the factory LSD for 2.24 gears. Looks like the price came down recently, you should be able to get it (if available) for <$1k, plus installation - about 4 hours to R&R the diff, another 4 hours to install the LSD. Straight bolt-in. You might be able to find a cheap spare 400E diff and build that into an LSD, then just swap it into the car. That way you have minimal downtime.

In this car's defense though, this is the quickest peg leg car I have ever owned!

Definitely, but the traction issues make it inconsistent, so your ET's fluctuate a tenth or two on a good day, or (as you described) a half-second on a bad day. The LSD really, really helps the launch. I can't stress that enough. Remember, I've got two 500's with LSD that have gone down the 'strip a few times, with & without LSD. Look at my spreadsheets, you can see how consistent the 60' times are.

 

[J-Sauce]

Low and behold, Eric can stop complaining! The video of him "spanking" that truck is up and running. Though, I fear the anticipation may have also been the climax of this particular shenanigan.

[youtube]UnujHCvigMM[/youtube]

 

[gsxr]

Dang... did Eric even do a burnout? I think I just figured out some of his traction problems.... cold tyres. Two seconds of spinning is not adequate!

 

[400Eric]

Cool. BTW, I found one for sale for <$100 if you want to buy one (and return mine), or if you wanted a second one... price ain't bad!

Thanks for the lead but fair price or not, that's more than I can afford right now. Don't forget that it was my generosity that caused me to miss out on that one that was at the U-Pull-It. I could have just told the old guy "No, sorry, I don't have a socket that will fit those bolts." and then, while he went to get one from his car, I could have nabbed that thing for myself for pocket change. Karma should dictate that that good deed should cause another 92 EZL to come into my life for pocket change. I just really can't see why I should have to pay big bucks for one of these when I could have had that one for chump change. It just really gets me that good behavior isn't rewarded.

BTW, I've got and/or can get some cool stuff that I'd like to discuss trading to you for yours. Do you have any wants/needs for yourself/friends/family? I have at least two of every kind of brain you can find in that brain box from the several 400Es that were showing up there for a while, I have a 93 5.0 EZL (that was supposed to be from a 92 400E) that I got as part of that bunk deal from Jeff (Though a 5.0 EZL should be worth more than a 4.2 EZL, right?) It's just like the one I got from Zayed right down to the part number. So, now that I have two of them. I could give one of them up for a buddy. I have a 400E instrument cluster, a OM603 cruise control computer that you said I should grab (but I don't know if it is the "newer" one or not), Also a single 3.0 OM603 connecting rod and piston (with the cap of course). I have several pre-90 3.0 M103 CIS-E ECUs, one post 89 3.0 M103 CIS-E ECU, a 93 W140 M104 3.2 LH ECU (yes, it's LH), I also just scored some non-wiper W124 headlight panels this past week-end to add to the mix too. Still have that 93 5.0 ECU too and other stuff I can't remember right now.

You want the pressure as high as possible without wheelspin, but if you're spinning, you gotta drop the pressure. With street tires you really don't want to go below 19-20psi though. If you're still at 25, yes, drop to ~20. Also make sure you're using an accurate gauge. I've had good results with AccuTire digitals, the one for $8 at Amazon is the best bang for the buck, IMO.

Yeah, you've gotta watch those gauges. We were using a Harbor Freight compressor with a gauge that was reading about 33% higher than what the pressure really was. I know that stuff is cheap, but how can they make one that far off?

Yes, but it won't be cheap. You can special order the factory LSD for 2.24 gears. Looks like the price came down recently, you should be able to get it (if available) for <$1k, plus installation - about 4 hours to R&R the diff, another 4 hours to install the LSD. Straight bolt-in. You might be able to find a cheap spare 400E diff and build that into an LSD, then just swap it into the car. That way you have minimal downtime.

Somebody needs to buy Benzer 1 before we can discuss that kind of cash outlay.

Definitely, but the traction issues make it inconsistent, so your ET's fluctuate a tenth or two on a good day, or (as you described) a half-second on a bad day. The LSD really, really helps the launch. I can't stress that enough. Remember, I've got two 500's with LSD that have gone down the 'strip a few times, with & without LSD. Look at my spreadsheets, you can see how consistent the 60' times are.

A half second? Try 3 seconds! Don't forget I go all the way down into the 17s when I'm having really bad traction problems.

Low and behold, Eric can stop complaining! The video of him "spanking" that truck is up and running. Though, I fear the anticipation may have also been the climax of this particular shenanigan.

Thanks for posting that!

There is a difference between complaining and requesting. I was requesting. The Altima SE R driver got our run posted in less than 6 hours, it took you over a month. I don't mean to sound ungrateful, it's just that I wanted to see it and show it! The waiting was killing me! It's a great video of a great come from behind win! That victory has a special meaning to me cause that A-hole and I had made a deal that provided that I was to get the left lane, then he proceeded to take it. So spanking him anyway was extra sweet.

Dang... did Eric even do a burnout? I think I just figured out some of his traction problems.... cold tyres. Two seconds of spinning is not adequate!

That run was right after my good run against the 940. I had just put my tall 16s back on just prior to that good run against the 940, so I was thinking that maybe I had overcome the problem with traction with those tall 16s. Plus, it was seeming like track conditions were improving. When I went out there and did my burnout (it's there, just watch the video), the car hooked up unexpectedly quickly, instead of spinning wildly like it had been earlier. So I figured "we're good, no need to heat the engine up and potentially slow my E/T" but when I hit it at the line, it was wheel spin city again. Hindsight is 20/20. Of course now I wish I had roasted the meats better. That run still wasn't nearly as bad as my first (17+ second) run against the 940 though. Some of the credit though goes to my shear determination and feathering that throttle just right cause I wanted to beat that dude so bad. Again, that's why I was so anxious to get that video posted! That was a sweet victory that I really had to work for! I earned it!

Hey, check it out! multi-quotes from two different people from three different posts! I'm getting good at this! I'm the man!
Regards, Eric

 

[gsxr]

Karma should dictate that that good deed should cause another 92 EZL to come into my life for pocket change. I just really can't see why I should have to pay big bucks for one of these when I could have had that one for chump change. It just really gets me that good behavior isn't rewarded.

Duuuude. Any functioning M119 EZL for <$100 *is* chump change! The 5.0L units generally fetch >$500 so yep, you should sell your spare to help fund other projects (like LSD, for instance).

BTW, I've got and/or can get some cool stuff that I'd like to discuss trading to you for yours. Do you have any wants/needs for yourself/friends/family? (snip)

Hmmm. Main thing I could use at the moment is a pair of ASR sensors from a 400E/500E (the ones which plug into the diff).

Yeah, you've gotta watch those gauges. We were using a Harbor Freight compressor with a gauge that was reading about 33% higher than what the pressure really was. I know that stuff is cheap, but how can they make one that far off?

Believe me, I know about inaccurate gauges! I bought an Accutire digital 10+ years ago and was able to check it at the racetrack, at the Dunlop tire truck. They had a huge calibrated gauge with a valve/stem where you attach your gauge, with a regulated pressure supply. You could check the accuracy of your gauges by comparing to the official gauge. Very cool setup. Anyway the Accutire was within 0.5 lbs of the calibrated gauge. My other dial gauge I had been using was off by 2psi. I recently bought three of the $8 Accutires on Amazon, all three read the exact same, and are all within 0.5psi of my original Accutire digital. My original is no longer made (AFAIK) but was similar to model MS-4004B and came in a nice hard-shell case. The ones I just bought are model MS-4021B. THe price fluctuates, they're now $9 and eligible for free shipping on orders over $25:
http://www.amazon.com/Accutire-MS-4021B ... 00080QHMM/

Somebody needs to buy Benzer 1 before we can discuss that kind of cash outlay.

I hear ya. I need to sell my bike this spring to fund other projects. Know anyone in the market for a low-miles Mille R? Lots of carbon fiber and Öhlins!

A half second? Try 3 seconds! Don't forget I go all the way down into the 17s when I'm having really bad traction problems.

You really need to fix the traction issues.

When I went out there and did my burnout (it's there, just watch the video), the car hooked up unexpectedly quickly, instead of spinning wildly like it had been earlier. So I figured "we're good, no need to heat the engine up and potentially slow my E/T" but when I hit it at the line, it was wheel spin city again. Hindsight is 20/20. Of course now I wish I had roasted the meats better.

Never, ever, ever try to avoid "heating up the engine" by doing a shorter burnout or not trying a second (dry) burnout. You will lose FAR more with wheelspin then you would EVER lose due to a couple more degrees engine temp. I'm sure you've seen my tire warmup video, that shows what I do with GOOD conditions. I smoke 'em longer if I'm at all concerned about spinning at the launch.

On a side note - since you are after low ET's, you should really try to get a set of those forged CLK's like Justin scored. Then get lightweight tires on them, preferably something sticky. You might be surprised at the ET improvement. They are even lighter than stock wheels, and the 205/55/16 tires are not much heavier than stock 195/65/15's. Look up tire specs at TireRack and find the lightest tires (some are 10-20% heavier than others!). You could drop as much as a tenth.

Hey, check it out! multi-quotes from two different people from three different posts! I'm getting good at this! I'm the man!

Wow! Yes you are, and yes you are!

 

[400Eric]

Duuuude. Any functioning EZL for <$100 *is* chump change! The 5.0L units generally fetch >$500 so yep, you should sell your spare to help fund other projects (like LSD, for instance).

Be that as it may, that is still WAY more than it would have cost me that day.

When you say "any" are you saying that even M103 EZLs are worth at least $100? Cause if that's the case, I can supply you with as many as you can sell and I'll only charge you $50 apiece!

Hmmm. Main thing I could use at the moment is a pair of ASR sensors from a 400E/500E (the ones which plug into the diff).

Would the ones from a W140 work? If the answer is yes, would the ones from a 3.2 powered W140 work or does it have to be from a 4.2/5.0 car? Also, since the 3.2 powered W124s use the "big" differential would the sensors from one of those work?

I hear ya. I need to sell my bike this spring to fund other projects. Know anyone in the market for a low-miles Mille R? Lots of carbon fiber and Öhlins!

I'm sorry, I don't even know what a "Mille R" is. It sounds Italian! Is it a Ducatti?

You really need to fix the traction issues.

I don't have any traction issues as long as the track ain't soaking wet. I hook great on the street.
Yes, there is always room for improvement on the car but the real culprit in this case was poor track prep.

Never, ever, ever try to avoid "heating up the engine" by doing a shorter burnout or not trying a second (dry) burnout. You will lose FAR more with wheelspin then you would EVER lose due to a couple more degrees engine temp. I'm sure you've seen my tire warmup video, that shows what I do with GOOD conditions. I smoke 'em longer if I'm at all concerned about spinning at the launch.

YES, yes, I know, I screwed up that time. Like I said, I thought we were good that time. I goofed. I still won though.

On a side note - since you are after low ET's, you should really try to get a set of those forged CLK's like Justin scored. Then get lightweight tires on them, preferably something sticky. You might be surprised at the ET improvement. They are even lighter than stock wheels, and the 205/55/16 tires are not much heavier than stock 195/65/15's. Look up tire specs at TireRack and find the lightest tires (some are 10-20% heavier than others!). You could drop as much as a tenth.

I'm glad you brought that up.

Justin, the dude hit me up at the track. I got the impression from him he was getting anxious for the deal to go down so I offered to fill in if it meant saving the deal but I think he misunderstood my intentions. Could you please call him and either get them or tell him you are sending me to get them so we don't lose out on these? If you want out completely I'll buy all 4. Whatever you want to do. Just need to do something so we don't lose out.

I already have 4 brand new 205/55/16s Goodyear Eagle R1s or F1s I forget exactly what they are called but they are the very exact tire that won that Car and Driver test a few years ago. They won a Grassroots Motorsports comparison about that same time as well. They may or may not be the lightest but they will do. Just got to get the wheels. (The wheels that those tires were going to go on originally were stolen off of Benzer 2.)
Regards, Eric

 

[gsxr]

When you say "any" are you saying that even M103 EZLs are worth at least $100? Cause if that's the case, I can supply you with as many as you can sell and I'll only charge you $50 apiece!

Sorry, meant "M119 EZL" - previous post updated.

Would the ones from a W140 work? If the answer is yes, would the ones from a 3.2 powered W140 work or does it have to be from a 4.2/5.0 car? Also, since the 3.2 powered W124s use the "big" differential would the sensors from one of those work?

Ideally they need to be from a 400E/500E. I do not know if E320 sensors will work. Also not sure about the W140 ones. R129 sensors definitely do not work, the cables are too short. I'd need photos & measurements of the E320/W140 sensors to detemine if they'll fit..

I'm sorry, I don't even know what a "Mille R" is. It sounds Italian! Is it a Ducatti?

2000.5 Aprilia Mille RSV-R, yup, it's Italian...

 

[400Eric]

Ideally they need to be from a 400E/500E. I do not know if E320 sensors will work. Also not sure about the W140 ones. R129 sensors definitely do not work, the cables are too short. I'd need photos & measurements of the E320/W140 sensors to detemine if they'll fit..

Can you find out in the EPC? A big diff W124 car is a big diff W124 car right? At least as far as the back half of the car is concerned right? I'm asking because I know where there is an E320 right now. Fairly recent arrival too. The M119 W124s are hiding right now. There will be more of course but I we don't know exactly when. That E320 is available right now which means you don't have to wait.

2000.5 Aprilia Mille RSV-R, yup, it's Italian...

Sounds expensive! Is it?
Regards, Eric

 

[400Eric]

Dave, Justin, here is an article you both need to read: http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/gene ... index.html
Read it all the way through!
Regards, Eric

 

[400Eric]

Can you [please] find out [for sure] in the EPC? A big diff W124 car is a big diff W124 car right? At least as far as the back half of the car is concerned right? I'm asking because I know where there is an E320 right now. Fairly recent arrival too. The M119 W124s are hiding right now. There will be more of course but I we don't know exactly when. That E320 is available right now which means you don't have to wait.

Dave? Are you there? If you can confirm in the EPC that the big diff W124 sensors are all the same, I can and will go get them. If there is any kind of chance at all that these will work we need to at least try. Since you aren't sure that they won't work you should check! We have nothing to lose! Please let me know ASAP so we don't lose them to someone else.
Regards, Eric

 

[gsxr]

Can you find out in the EPC? A big diff W124 car is a big diff W124 car right? At least as far as the back half of the car is concerned right? I'm asking because I know where there is an E320 right now. Fairly recent arrival too. The M119 W124s are hiding right now. There will be more of course but I we don't know exactly when. That E320 is available right now which means you don't have to wait.

The EPC will only show the part number is different - but that doesn't mean it will or won't work. I need to see the actual sensor itself and get a cable length to determine if it will work. EPC doesn't tell you specs. Of course the E320 would need to have ASR too. Yes, both have the 210mm diff, so it doesn't make sense to me either that the sensors are different. Only the 124 V8's use 124-540-23-17 and -24-17; the 124-540-21-17 and -22-17 are used on most all 6-cyl 124's. It appears the routing is different and therefore the length may be different... a couple inches extra length is ok, but short isn't.

Sounds expensive! Is it?

Nope. Well, not any more. New it was ~$17k, now probably ~$5k...

 

[400Eric]

The EPC will only show the part number is different - but that doesn't mean it will or won't work. I need to see the actual sensor itself and get a cable length to determine if it will work. EPC doesn't tell you specs. Of course the E320 would need to have ASR too. Yes, both have the 210mm diff, so it doesn't make sense to me either that the sensors are different. Only the 124 V8's use 124-540-23-17 and -24-17; the 124-540-21-17 and -22-17 are used on most all 6-cyl 124's. It appears the routing is different and therefore the length may be different... a couple inches extra length is ok, but short isn't.

OK then. Can you please tell me exactly where these things are and what the easiest way is to get to them and pull them? Maybe even post a picture of yours so I'll have a good visual? Do I need to take any special tools with me?

Nope. Well, not any more. New it was ~$17k, now probably ~$5k...

5k may be a fair price but that is also about what the Sauceman paid for his 500E. I think I would rather have a 500E!

I wish I knew more motorcycle dudes so I could help you!
Regards, Eric

 

[400Eric]

OK then. Can you please tell me exactly where these things are and what the easiest way is to get to them and pull them? Maybe even post a picture of yours so I'll have a good visual? Do I need to take any special tools with me?

Dave? Dave! David Snavid the Davemiester, where are you?

 

[Adam1981]

it seems the Dave is not here anymore

 

[J-Sauce]

Haha Dave posted 4 days ago. Cut the guy some slack!

 

[400Eric]

It's just that we've got to get on that E320 before the parts are gone!
And for the record, it's been 6 days

 

[gsxr]

Sorry for the late reply folks! Eric, the sensors install in the top of of the diff, one on each side. Simple to remove with the diff out of the car, probably a nightmare with the diff in the car. A single 4mm (?) hex screw is all that holds the sensor in place, then it should twist / wiggle straight up & out. At the connector end, on the V8 cars there is a big round plastic thingy. The outside ring pulls straight down allowing the connectors to easily be removed.

I may have located a good set, so there's less immediate need... however it would be nice to at some point determine if the E320 sensors can be used or not (or put another way, it would be nice to determine the difference between the V8 and 6-cyl ASR sensors).

 

[400Eric]

I'll go have a look.

Do you have any other wants/needs/desires in the way of Benz stuff that I can score for you and/or yours out here?

 

[gsxr]

Not from a 6-cyl car, that I can think of anyway. Maybe from a V8 though if you find any of those floating around!

 

[400Eric]

Well tell me already what V8 stuff you want cause there may be some new arrivals since the last time I was there. We are and have been overdue for some M119s!

 

[gsxr]

If there are any M119 5.0L engines.... I'm looking for a set of camshafts, even better if I could get both complete heads with cams+lifters (but that would be a LOT of work to extract in a P+P yard). A set of M119 valve covers would be nice. 6-rib AC clutch/pulley assembly, set of 6-rib pulleys, etc. Probably some miscellaneous stuff as well that I can't think of at the moment! I really need to just get a whole parts car, huh.

 

[400Eric]

What about a mass air meter, throttle actuator, fuel pressure regulator, etc,. etc.? Surely there are other things you hadn't thought of?

How about some 260E non-wiper headlight panels? Did I mention those?

What about the 5.0 EZL that came from Jeff? If that thing really is worth 500 bucks, that would mean that I didn't get ripped off after all! Although I am sure he didn't intend to send me a 5.0 EZL, he probably really did think it was from a 92 400E that they had parted out. Anyways, you have any interest in that? Don't worry, I won't charge you it's full value! Let's deal!
Regards, Eric

 

[400Eric]

About the valve covers, I of course have the ones that came on the engines in the Jeff deal but I kinda wanted to keep them if for no other reason than to keep those engines sealed but if they could alleviate my debt to you and/or help you out I guess we could put them on the table. Would they be subject to a higher shipping rate because of their semi-bulkiness?

About 5.0 cams, are you still of the opinion that the 93 and later ones are better?
Regards, Eric

 

[gsxr]

Already have a spare MAF and ETA, wouldn't really be interested in more unless they were labeled as fairly recent rebuilds, and valid for a vehicle I have. Don't need blank wiper panels, but a set of 94/95 wiper motors+arms would be great! I don't have an immediate need for valve covers, so if you spot any, that would be great... but I don't need to un-seal your spare motor yet, lol. On the 5.0 cams, I'm still of the opinion that the 93-up are different, but I can't say just yet if they are "better". I'm hoping to prove that one way or t'other with dyno runs, possibly later this year (assuming I can get my hands on a set to try out).

 

[Christian_K]

On the 5.0 cams, I'm still of the opinion that the 93-up are different, but I can't say just yet if they are "better". I'm hoping to prove that one way or t'other with dyno runs, possibly later this year (assuming I can get my hands on a set to try out).

What is your source that the camshafts have been changed (in timings) throughout the series?
Never heard of that and barely to believe to be honest with you.

EDIT: Nevermind just checked my Data and your right.
At 2mm Valvelift, according to WIS the modellyear 1993 camshafts have changed timings as following:

Inlet-camshaft (numbers in bracket pre-1993 cams): Inlet-valves open at 33°(30°) after TDC and close at 42°(40°) after BDC.
Outlet-camshaft (numbers in bracket pre-1993 cams): Outlet-valves open at 10°(13°) before TDC and close at 11°(13°) before BDC

 

[gsxr]

Christian, you are correct. And although the factory specs don't list the valve lift in mm, I have reason to believe the 93-up cams have slightly more lift as well. This is not yet confirmed though... I need to open up one of my '92 engines and measure the cams to get the exact data!

 

[400Eric]

a set of 94/95 wiper motors+arms would be great!

That E320 should have those right? (Cause any W124 called an E320 is a 94-95!) Why didn't you say something sooner?

I could see the wiper arms being unique to the 94-95s but the motors are unique to them too? That E320 should have those right? (Cause any W124 called an E320 is a 94-95!) Why didn't you say something sooner?

I could see the wiper arms being unique to the 94-95s but the motors are unique to them too?

 

[gerryvz]

Both the wiper arms and motors are the same for all 1994-1995 model year 124s.

Cheers,
Gerry

 

[Christian_K]

Both the wiper arms and motors are the same for all 1994-1995 model year 124s.

Cheers,
Gerry

Are you sure? In the German 500E "introduction to service" manual they stated that for the 500E, the wipers "lift" as been raised some millimeters.

 

[gsxr]

Eric, actually any 124 chassis headlight 94-95 wipers would be great - E300, E320, E420, or E500. Both the motors and arms are different compared to the 86-93 style. I need a full set, preferably including the hardware too (the little 8mm shaft nut, the 17mm (?) nut that fastens the motor to the headlamp, etc). Of course they are a minor nuisance to remove as the headlamp has to come out first...!

Are you sure? In the German 500E "introduction to service" manual they stated that for the 500E, the wipers "lift" as been raised some millimeters.

Christian, I think that was the windshield wiper which was supposed to be different, as I recall reading the same thing. But the EPC lists the same replacement part numbers as for most all other 124's, i.e. there doesn't appear to be an 036-specific windshield wiper assembly. Unless it was one of those things where only the original was different, and the replacements are the generic version?

Found it - in the intro manual, it says: "Model 124.036: The range of the extended-reach wiper in its outermost position was increased by 4mm."

 

[400Eric]

OK, gonna try to hit the yard on Tuesday. Got too much stuff on the plate tomorrow.
Regards, Eric

 

[gerryvz]

I thought you were talking about the headlight wipers and motors, hence why I replied in the plural. As far as I know, the main windshield wiper only has one wiper and motor. As far as I know, US and Euro 124s both had the same headlight wipers for the 1994 and 1995 model years.

Sorry about the confusion.

Cheers,
Gerry

 

[400Eric]

It's OK Uncle Gerry. We were talking about the headlight wipers only but it got branched out a bit. I was originally asking about the 86-93 headlight wiper motors vs. the 94-95 headlight wiper motors but I may have neglected to put the word "headlight" in front of the words "wiper motors" a couple of times.

What I don't get is why the motors are different. Yes, one could see the wipers and wiper arms being different but the motors too? The reason I'm bummed about this is if the motors were/are the same as the 86-93 motors, I could come up with those quickly. On the other hand, those 94-95 lights disappear very quickly (and usually their wipers and wiper motors right along with them). They were already missing from this car when I first found it a month ago and it was at that point clearly a recent arrival. I'm just hoping against hope that the headlight wiper stuff is still there but the more I think about it, the more I think that my hope is probably pretty hopeless. Whoever got the lights probably got the headlight wiper stuff too. They usually do.

I can understand people wanting the newer lights for their better lighting ability, but most people only get them (and the grill and hood) for the "updated look" which seems silly to me. I mean, how much of an "update" is it when the look you are updating to is still 17 years years old?
Regards, Eric

 

[gsxr]

What I don't get is why the motors are different. Yes, one could see the wipers and wiper arms being different but the motors too?

It's because the motors rotate in the opposite direction, and have a slightly different total angle of sweep. The 86-93 USA wipers only clean the headlight, while the 94-95 also clean the lens in front of the H3 bulb (fog light on non-500E's).

The reason I'm bummed about this is if the motors were/are the same as the 86-93 motors, I could come up with those quickly.

Me too. I have a set on my parts car, lol...

I can understand people wanting the newer lights for their better lighting ability, but most people only get them (and the grill and hood) for the "updated look" which seems silly to me. I mean, how much of an "update" is it when the look you are updating to is still 17 years years old?

The 124 facelift was partly to make the car look like the new-at-the-time W140 chassis, which ran through 1999. By comparison, the early 124's did look a tad frumpy. Most people wouldn't mistake an 86-89 model for anything much newer, but a clean 94-95 124 can and has been mistaken (by non-MB people) for a 2000+ model. Pretty much any time someone asks me "what year is your car?", their eyes get huge when I tell them, especially when they hear the mileage (most near 200k).

 

[gerryvz]

I get asked all the time as to the model year of my 1989 560SEC. More interest now that MB has gone back to a grill design in the past few years with the C-class, SLs, SLK, Gullwing, etc. that is very similar to the older cars. From the front the SEC doesn't really look so dated.

 

[400Eric]

No headlight wipers/motors on, in, or around that E320. And those sensors are going to be an absolute bitch to get. I'm not ruling out getting them, but I'm gonna need a day where I can have the whole day to spend there and I don't have a whole day to spare right now. I'm hoping I'll get some breathing room soon though. It's just one thing after another right now. The latest fun is my adorable daughter has a sty in her eye that has somehow gotten blocked and infected. She now looks like Sly Stallone does at the end of a Rocky movie. Had to take her in again today and will have to do yet another follow-up again on Friday. Dave, when are you gonna start doing the procreating thing so you too can experience the joys of parenthood?

Back on topic for a moment, (Hey wait a minute, this thread isn't about headlight wipers either!) Dave, how much is the fair market value of those 94-95 headlight wipers and motors? I'm wondering cause I'm thinking to maybe let you have the ones off of Benzer 4 and then just go with the Mad Max look on that car just like we are doing with Benzer 3. The only thing stopping me is the fact that Benzer 4 is a fairly nice looking car, despite the fact that I paid so little for him. (It's funny cause I paid big money for Benzer 3 and he is now so ugly because of the T-bone accident he endured!) Would my 260E headlight panels fit Benzer 4? That might be another option to explore. Yet another option is that I simply continue to hit my yards as I'm overdue for some good luck there. I've got a whole mess of stuff that I'm looking for, might as well look for some stuff for you too. Anyways, I'll keep exploring ways to take care of my EZL debt and to help you out too!
Regards, Eric

 

[400Eric]

Dave? Dave! David Snavid the Davemiester, where are you?
Could you please answer the questions posed above? What do you think about my idea?

 

[gsxr]

Dave? Dave! David Snavid the Davemiester, where are you?

Idaho, same as usual!

Could you please answer the questions posted above?

I just did! "Idaho".

What do you think about my idea?

Now I'm confused. Idea...? :idea:

Dave, when are you gonna start doing the procreating thing so you too can experience the joys of parenthood?

Check back with me in a few years... not in any hurry...

Dave, how much is the fair market value of those 94-95 headlight wipers and motors?

I think I paid ~$50/set plus shipping for the last couple kits I got. These turn up so infrequently I'm not really sure what the FMV would be. Doubt they'd go much past $100 or so?

Would my 260E headlight panels fit Benzer 4? That might be another option to explore.

Pretty much all the 124 headlight panels are interchangeable. The differences are very minor. Detailed photos are here. If you had a full set of late headlight wipers (motor, arms, nuts, grommets, etc - no panels needed)... I'd call that an even trade for the EZL.

 

[400Eric]

If you'll send me back that $10 so I can apply it towards the shipping this might be doable. (In other words, you cover/covered the EZL shipping, I'll cover the wiper stuff shipping, making this a true even steven trade even though the shipping costs on the wiper stuff will be higher.)

If you are cool with that I'll go ahead and pull the stuff off of B-4 and if the look that results from that surgery isn't too hard on the eyes I'll send you the stuff.

You've got to give me some time though as like I said in an earlier post, If I show up over there where the car is stored, I'm probably gonna have to commit to an exit date for that car leaving there and I really need for B-1 to leave here before I dare risk bringing B-4 back here. I will however be bringing B-4 back here in about 2 months anyways even if B-1 isn't gone by then cause I want to begin work on B-4 as it really seems that B-3 has hit a wall performance wise. (Re-read this paragraph again if it doesn't make sense the first time.)
Regards, Eric

 

[gsxr]

Sounds like a plan, Eric! If you're not crazy about the appearance of the car sans wipers, no worries. Although you may prefer to keep the 420 wiper-less for more airflow, right?