Lowering: H&R springs vs 1-bump pads? Also SLS question

[borring]

I checked my turnbuckle last night and it at the maximum length.
I also tried to move the valve arm further down with the turnbuckle unmounted and the motor spinning, no additional lowering. I have 3 cm between the frame and the tire with stock springs and 1-point pads, my conclusion the car is sitting on the springs – So H&R will be required to lower it further (my wish is 1 cm between the frame and the tire).


I noticed that there are two mounting holes on the valve leveling; my turnbuckle is mounted in the outer hole. I guess the inner hole can be used if more length is required, anyone used that option?

 

[500AMM]

Hi Dan.

I have problems with the SLS valve on my SuperMerc (elevates to max height), so yesterday I bleeded the SLS system and took of the valve. The car sank down until it was hanging on the springs, but surprisingly it only lowered to a quite normal ride height with 345mm from the fender arc to the wheel centre. I have Brabus springs on that car, which has 99% equal specs as the H&R, along with #1 pads. I also loosened the inner and outer bolts on the LCAs to release any strain there. I guess it's approx 20-30mm clearance between the fender arc and the wheel. I want it down to approx. 320mm, so I may cut the springs a bit. I hope this ride height goes fine along with the shortened LCAs.

Question to Dave; Have you ever measured the rear height when the car is hanging on the springs?

 

[gsxr]

borring, don't measure from the tire to fender, this varies too much to compare between different cars. Measure from the wheel center to fender lip as shown here.

The lowest I was able to get my 500e with H&R rear springs was approx 13.5" in the rear (right around 345mm) from fender lip to wheel center. I think you'll need to cut the springs if you want it any lower, along with tweaking the SLS. I am not sure if there is a limit to how low the SLS will allow the rear to drop. I also am not sure at what point the shock stop buffers would prevent the car from going any lower even if the springs were removed from the car entirely. (This is easy to check with normal shocks, not so easy with SLS shocks.)

I reinstalled stock springs in my car and set it to 14.0" (358mm) front & rear with a full tank of fuel. Personally, I would not want to go any lower than 13.5", and I think you will have serious problems at 12.5" (320mm), if it's even possible to get it that low with SLS. To get the front to match, it will at least be sitting on the strut stop buffers, and you might even need to cut the stop buffers to make it go that low. It might look cool but don't be surprised if the driveability goes in the toilet...

 

[borring]

Hmmm my rear is 372mm with a full tank of fuel, that's 14mm higher that yours on the same setup, can it be that my car has non-500E springs installed?
My aim is ~352mm at the rear so the H&R seems like a perfect match with the right pad level.

My front is 345mm which is perfect.

Cutting real Brabus springs *Gosh* I guess they are much more expensive than H&R.

 

[gsxr]

My 500E with H&R's was originally 14.0" (358mm) in the rear with a full tank of fuel, and 14.5" (370mm) with an empty tank; with a 1-pt pad.

Adjusting the SLS turnbuckle to approx 38mm between the locknuts dropped the rear 1/2" (12mm).

YMMV, etc...

 

[500AMM]

borring, don't measure from the tire to fender, this varies too much to compare between different cars. Measure from the wheel center to fender lip as shown here.

The lowest I was able to get my 500e with H&R rear springs was approx 13.5" in the rear (right around 345mm) from fender lip to wheel center. I think you'll need to cut the springs if you want it any lower, along with tweaking the SLS. I am not sure if there is a limit to how low the SLS will allow the rear to drop. I also am not sure at what point the shock stop buffers would prevent the car from going any lower even if the springs were removed from the car entirely. (This is easy to check with normal shocks, not so easy with SLS shocks.)

I reinstalled stock springs in my car and set it to 14.0" (358mm) front & rear with a full tank of fuel. Personally would not want to go any lower than 13.5", and I think you will have serious problems at 12.5" (320mm), if it's even possible to get it that low with SLS. To get the front to match, it will at least be sitting on the strut stop buffers, and you might even need to cut the stop buffers to make it go that low. It might look cool but don't be surprised if the driveability goes in the toilet...

Cutting real Brabus springs *Gosh* I guess they are much more expensive than H&R.

Exactly - and it won't happen with the Brabus springs, be sure, it will be with other springs if I ever do that.

But based on the experience from Dave, I won't sacrifice the handling and driveability just to get a cool look. I will check a bit around it though.

 

[borring]

Anyone lowering with H&R and still using SLS or considering to replace SLS with Koni or Bilstein shock?

 

[500AMM]

Anyone lowering with H&R and still using SLS or considering to replace SLS with Koni or Bilstein shock?

Hei Dan.

I have H&R on the Limited and Brabus springs on the 6.0 and both have the SLS. I'll keep the Limited as is, but I would like to disconnect the SLS on the 6.0 at some point, just to test and feel the difference. But it's a bit down on the list and I haven't done any research about replacement shocks yet. (My 6.0 has other shocks at front, don't know what type it is, but they are orange if that indicates something.)

Regarding the rear spring lengths with or without the SLS - have a look at page 2 of the TüV certificate for the Brabus springs. There you'll see the only difference on springs for SLS versus non-SLS are 10mm, all other specs are equal. The non-SLS springs are stretched 10mm, but they'll also be slightly stiffer when changing the pitch. It is hard to say how much, but 300/290 equals a 3,44% theoretical increase and is hardly noticable on street driving IMO.

I will keep the springs for the SLS, but compensate with a 10mm alu. spacer on top of it, above the spring pad.

Cheers

 

[Calspeed]

It was briefly touched on but I have not seen any follow up. Disconnecting the SLS entirely.

My plan is to install the a set of HR springs and probably a set of Konis front and rear. Shock pads bump stop mods.

Miguel

 

[gsxr]

It was briefly touched on but I have not seen any follow up. Disconnecting the SLS entirely.

That's because almost nobody does this. You'll need to get a standard (non-tandem) power steering pump from a 400E/E420 and plug off all the hydraulics, replace the rear springs/shocks, etc.

My plan is to install the a set of HR springs and probably a set of Konis front and rear. Shock pads bump stop mods.

Keep in mind that eliminating SLS will devalue the car significantly. If you plan to keep it long term and aren't worried about resale, this may not be an issue.

 

[borring]

I have tired to replace the tandem pump with a power steering pump from a SL 500 R129 (same year 1992) and I can confirm that it doesn't fit. So right now my tandem pump is looped with oil inside the house and the oil storage is removed from the car.
I believe a 400E as suggested will fit......

 

[500AMM]

I have tired to replace the tandem pump with a power steering pump from a SL 500 R129 (same year 1992) and I can confirm that it doesn't fit. So right now my tandem pump is looped with oil inside the house and the oil storage is removed from the car.
I believe a 400E as suggested will fit......

Hei Dan.

You can also open the servopump and disable the SLS pump function. The 4 pistons and springs up at right on the image is the SLS pump internals, just take them out. The steel sleeve below the pistons on the image is the the cam follower on the pump axle and must also be taken out.

If the pump has above 150kkm it's a great chance it is zipping a bit anyway or will do in near future, so why not reseal the pump at the same time. Gerry posted a very good & detailed How-To here:

http://www.500eboard.com/forums/showthread.php?3902-Power-Steering-Pump-Leak-Investigation

 

[Jelmer]

If you plan to keep it long term and aren't worried about resale

Everyone who just bought his car thinks this, yet plenty end up selling for whatever reason.

 

[500AMM]

It is not necessary to eliminate the SLS entirely by cutting the oil lines, grinding off brackets etc.. The hard pipes (oil lines) from the reservoir and pump going underneath the car to the SLS valve in the back must be plugged and left in place. It is not possible to get them out in one part without bending them, which will partly destroy them. And you never get them installed again and get a stock appearance.

All other parts can be safely and easily taken out; the spheres & oil tubes, hydro shocks & hoses, SLS valve & and bracket, oil reservoir, and the tandem pump if it's replaced. All parts can be thoroughly cleaned and stored away for later use, or follow the car in case it is sold.

 

[500AMM]

If just a test is wanted to find out how the car is without the SLS, and avoid the entire delete job, the system can just be blinded at the SLS valve.

The two oil lines going to the spheres & shocks can be disconnected from the SLS valve. The two ports on the SLS valve have to be plugged, it is M10 x 1 mm threads in the ports (it is M12 x 1 mm on the main lines, btw). The pump and reservoir can now be left mounted and oil filled and fully operating, the oil will only circulate through the system. Even the SLS valve linkage can be left connected, it doesn't make any harm to the system at all.

If the SLS valve is disconnected, the control arm has to be locked in the neutral position. That's done with a 4 mm screw and and a lock nut, see image below.

(It is no point to disassemble the SLS valve)

 

[gsxr]

I would NOT remove any of the SLS system... just disconnect/bypass/plug as required. That way it can be re-connected later if desired.

 

[borring]

As already mentioned in this thread the stock springs are very similar to the H&R springs.
If I want stiffer springs what are my options?
Did Carlsson ever made any springs for the 500E?

 

[500AMM]

As already mentioned in this thread the stock springs are very similar to the H&R springs.
If I want stiffer springs what are my options?
Did Carlsson ever made any springs for the 500E?

Dan,

I'm not sure there is many options, but have you checked out the Eibach springs?
I've seen some adding rubber blocks in the springs too, but I'm not familiar with that.

 

[gsxr]

If you want stiffer, you can get the E60 AMG springs, but they are very expensive. There are some Cabriolet front springs which should be stiffer, but I'm not sure what (if any) factory rear springs are stiffer and also the correct length.

I'd go with the E60 springs, but you better be sitting down when you check the price.

 

[szvook]

E60 AMG springs

What's the price difference between AMG and Limited springs?

 

[gsxr]

What's the price difference between AMG and Limited springs?

Limiteds use the same front springs as normal .036's, and they use slightly shorter rear springs (but not stiffer). Price is same as most other W124 standard springs, currently $100-$125 ea MSRP in USA.

AMG E60 springs are roughly 5x the cost... $500-$600 ea MSRP. (!!!!)

 

[borring]

I will keep the springs for the SLS, but compensate with a 10mm alu. spacer on top of it, above the spring pad.

Arnt i replaced the pads so I now have 3-points which is maximum for the rear springs, but its still very low, the 10mm alu. spacer would make the hight just perfect! But where do I buy a pair?

 

[gsxr]

If you deleted SLS, I would not shim the stock springs. Just install the E420 rear Sportline springs. I'm not confident than a 10mm spacer above the rubber buffer will allow the spring to seat deep enough into the pocket.

 

[edcarls]

... install the E420 rear Sportline springs.

Dave,
Do the E420 rear spring had the same diameter as the 500E? I'm asking because my car seats too low with H&R springs and I don't want to compensate by using the SLS or thick shims. I happen to have a pair of 400E rear springs which I can cut to size. But, I haven't checked if it would fit because I had the notion that SLS and Non-SLS springs are different in diameter.
Ed

 

[borring]

At the rear I'm running H&R springs with 3 bump pads and Koni sports, and its very low, 10mm should make it perfect so the wheel don't hit the fender if I go fast around the corners.

 

[gsxr]

Dave,
Do the E420 rear spring had the same diameter as the 500E? I'm asking because my car seats too low with H&R springs and I don't want to compensate by using the SLS or thick shims. I happen to have a pair of 400E rear springs which I can cut to size. But, I haven't checked if it would fit because I had the notion that SLS and Non-SLS springs are different in diameter.

The external diameter is the same. The length, number of coils, and wire diameter will be different. When I had H&R springs on my 500E, the front was too low even with 4pt pads, and I had trouble getting the rear low enough to match the front even with 1pt pads and SLS adjustment. It's interesting that you seem to have the reverse problem, if I understand correctly?

 

[edcarls]

... It's interesting that you seem to have the reverse problem, if I understand correctly?

Yes, my rear seats low. I'll try to fix it first by playing with the front and back shims combinations. At least now I know I can use the 400E springs if all else fails. Thanks.

 

[gsxr]

Stock 400E rear springs will likely be too tall. You could experiment with cutting them as needed. These will be a bit softer than the 400E Sportline rears.

 

[borring]

The SLS/shock absorber is holding the rear end, even if it's adjusted as low as possible. With Koni shock absorbers the springs are holding the rear end. At least that's my experience. So if your rear end is very low you might want to check if the SLS is working, as mine was not too low with the SLS/HR setup.

 

[sheward]

It's interesting that you seem to have the reverse problem, if I understand correctly?

It is ,Dave. I have the reverse scenario as well. I must use SLS to increase ride highth with my H&R springs to prevent too limited travel. It does work fine in my case and provides a very nice setup.

drew

 

[500AMM]

If you deleted SLS, I would not shim the stock springs. Just install the E420 rear Sportline springs. I'm not confident than a 10mm spacer above the rubber buffer will allow the spring to seat deep enough into the pocket.

Arnt i replaced the pads so I now have 3-points which is maximum for the rear springs, but its still very low, the 10mm alu. spacer would make the hight just perfect! But where do I buy a pair?

Dan,

Dave may have a point here. I've not done any further investigation on this yet since I am working on four of my other cars at the moment. The plan was to use #1 pads as they will give less flex and the spring will seat a bit better in it. The shim plate wil then take most of the height, prolly 15-20mm. If a shim plate can be used it must fit exactly into the pocket, and I would like to make it myself if I get a turning machine availble.

But if the car is too low, is it possible to shim between the subframe mounts and the chassis?? (..just throwing out an idea..)
I talked to another owner yesterday and we discussed this a bit. He told that his car got wheel hopping when he did some spinning. That car was lowered and on 19" wheels. Some place on a forum they have found out that the flexing started in the subframe mounts so the subframe moved back and forth and the masses subsequently caused oscillation in the suspension. Any thoughts on this?

......
Dave - I recall some year ago you posted some information about the hopping problem on the strip. You had the car lowered with H&R and K-Mac bushings and you got hopping during wheel warm-up, right?
......
Dan - if the shim plates is a solution I could make a set for you too, but I won't start on that before mid summer, sorry.
......

 

[gsxr]

FWIW: I experienced rear wheel hop when I replaced the stock camber link with a Heim-joint style. Reverting back to stock camber links cured the wheel hop. I then used a different camber correction method. YMMV, etc...

 

[500AMM]

FWIW: I experienced rear wheel hop when I replaced the stock camber link with a Heim-joint style. Reverting back to stock camber links cured the wheel hop. I then used a different camber correction method. YMMV, etc...

OK, I was wrong about the parts then. However, lowering can cause such problems, though it's not that big problem on regular driving.

 

[borring]

Thanks Arnt for investigate the different possibilities, and if the plates and the lower 1-points pad is the way then I would be happy to try it out No rush... Take you time.

 

[borring]

Hi Arnt

I made a higher pads by combing two pads into one, the pocket is round so I guess the shim plate would require some extra effort. Actual the ride right is just perfect now so, I guess your solution will work very well, but extent the pocket with the same as the spacer might be an option to ensure the springs factory settings.

 

[8899]

1-bump front and rear pads, side by side.

FRONT: 201 325 09 44

REAR: 201 321 09 84

Your part number information conflicts with what GSXR indicated in post #29.

 

[Glen]

Your part number information conflicts with what GSXR indicated in post #29.

He just mixed up front and rear numbers...part numbers are correct.

 

[8899]

Does installing billstein sports up front (with no change to springs or spring pads) result in any change to ride height?

 

[Glen]

Does installing billstein sports up front (with no change to springs or spring pads) result in any change to ride height?

Possibly. If your current struts are very worn out and/or leaking then you may see a slight (.5" to .75" increase in front ride height. This will settle a bit over time but possibly not to the extent of the original really worn struts.

 

[gsxr]

Correct. The type of strut doesn't really affect ride height, but the age (new vs old) does affect ride height. As Glen said, new struts are typically 0.5-0.75" higher when compared to old/worn struts, with no other changes. I've found it generally takes 3-5 years to lose the extra height (i.e., for the new strut to lose some internal gas pressure).

 

[gerryvz]

(i.e., for the new strut to lose some internal gas pressure).

Giving your struts an occasional dose of Tums, Gas-X or Beano will help alleviate this internal gas pressure.

 

[8899]

Glen/GSXR - thanks for the information...very helpful indeed. I will install 1-bump pads all around when installing the bilstein sports up front.

Giving your struts an occasional dose of Tums, Gas-X or Beano will help alleviate this internal gas pressure.

Gerry - not exactly sure how to do that. Perhaps one of your infamous How-To threads on this procedure, complete with detailed photos, would be helpful.

 

[JordiC]

I apologize in advance but you fellas left this thread wide open....

[video=youtube;VPIP9KXdmO0]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VPIP9KXdmO0[/video]

 

[Jelmer]

Thanks for the subtitles, they really helped understand the tone of the farts!

 

[Maui]

1-bump front and rear pads, side by side.

FRONT: 201 325 09 44

REAR: 201 321 09 84

These are installed with stock springs to lower the car? I'd like to lower my car a tad, not much just a little. I'm going to be installing the later LCA's when I do the brakes.

 

[gsxr]

These are installed with stock springs to lower the car? I'd like to lower my car a tad, not much just a little. I'm going to be installing the later LCA's when I do the brakes.

Depends what is in there now. If you already have the "one bump" / "one point" pads, you're already there. Only way to tell is a visual inspection, front & rear. You will also need to adjust the SLS when attempting to lower the rear end.

 

[Egreaves20]

Helpful thread. I have Eibachs with #1 pads on front and rear and want to raise the front a bit, so ordered #4 front pads today from Parts.com I think that will do it.

Had the same set-up on my 2002 E55 (#4 front, #1 rear with H&Rs) and it sat very level but not too low on the front.

 

[Egreaves20]

I got the new front #4 Mercedes pads from Parts.com and installed them today. Removed the #1 front pads that were on and it raised the front of the car 3/4 of an inch. Very happy with the outcome and I think it looks proper now with the Eibach springs.

 

[sheward]

I would tweak the rear up just a bit more to match the front, but it looks very good. I just finished changing from 2 bump to 4 in the front and 2 bump to 3 rear. Although I'm using H&Rs on my car I'm hoping for the same result. The car is still on the lift.

drew

 

[gerryvz]

Just about perfect. I agree with Drew ... rear adjustment up a tad with the SLS, and you're home free.