500E M119 Header 180degree Marge / Cross bank 4-2-1 x2 project in Japan

[NIIBE]

I have been using short runner header with my 6 litter M119 Motor with stand alone ECU/ Motec M800 and 722.6 5speed trans conversion.
I do not have any necessity to changed current setting for daily driving and some strip trial.

hence I am building new motor with solid tappet and billet camshaft, I shall try to make new header that I long time studied.

It would be 180 degree marge, i.e Cross bank. 1-4, 2-3,5-8, 6-7 180 degree marge as 1st φ48.6　inconel 1,0mm rolled pipe,
2nd is 1-4(R) with 6-7(L) and 5-8 (L) with 2-3(L) after trans, around drive shaft center bearing area 2nd φ60.5 also Inconel 1.0mm rolled pipe.
3rd is scratching but around φ80　around, 4th would be depend on road clearance.

I realized that we need 4 or 8 O2 sensor for sequential injector control with 180 degree marge / cross plane crank : )


Speed Niibe

 

[NIIBE]

Long long time ago, l thought that l would be happy if l could make 180 degree Marge header like Ford GT40 and Detomaso Pantera.

It has been taking a long time still, but l could share steps with you .

Cause of high temperature of exhaust manifold , these were Made by Inconel steel and it’s very difficult to bend and even cut.

Detail are written in my Blog thread. But sorry for just in Japanese.

500E倶楽部 編集後記

Speed Niibe

 

[TimL]

@NIIBE, that looks fantastic

Are you planing to sell these type of headers at some point or are they for your own project only?

 

[sheward]

Fantastic work!

 

[gsxr]

I have been using short runner header with my 6 litter M119 Motor with stand alone ECU/ Motec M800 and 722.6 5speed trans conversion.
I do not have any necessity to changed current setting for daily driving and some strip trial.

hence I am building new motor with solid tappet and billet camshaft, I shall try to make new header that I long time studied.

This sounds like an amazing build, NIIBE!

Just curious, what is the best performance you had at the dragstrip with your current 6-liter M119? I.e., best ET (time) and best speed (km/h)?

 

[NIIBE]

Timl,

That looks fantastic

Are you planing to sell these type of headers at some point or are they for your own project only?

Thank you for your interest,

I can HAPPY to share my parts and/or material, especially who can build by themselves.
But please understand these parts are designed for my high performance new motor, and will not fit standard motor.

Any way, I can provide laser cut flange plate, 2-1 (16-8) initial marge EX pipe made by inconel / press etc.
You can build your own header relatively easily, if you could manage Inconel material.
by your own size, diameter and/or length that depends on target RPM, temp and power.

I don't have any plan to made other material as such as steel, or stainless steel. at this moment.
cause of high EX temp even standard M119 6.0 Motor.

Honestly, these are too expensive to list, even top racing team under major sponsor may hesitate to decide instantly.
as for me, I decided to sell Rolls Royce and feeding, riding horse every day instead.

if you don't care about resources,
Also more important things are need so much modification before this Header install.

Too much to list, but at least, from my experience.


1. 722.6 5 speed Trans conversion cause of un used starter shape in Left bank with 722.3.
2. Rack and Pinion steering conversion cause of left and right bank space.
(may need to modify body/ floor )

3. Stand alone recent modern ECU with sequential and spark timing control, with Nock retard are all highly recommend.
(including Big Fuel pump, enough injectors, fuel rails, pressure regulator, lines etc. reliable spark coil/ plug on )
Need 4 or 8 O2sensor management.

4. Solid tapped and High lift and duration camshaft highly recommend due to length of header pipe target RPM and EX temperature .

5. New piston with high compression and valve recess required. cause of over 6000rpm targeted.
(HLA is up to 6000rpm )

6. Strong drive shaft (30T over ), diff side gear and wide bearing rear hub are mandate.
I broke and bent multi drive shaft(s) even I was using LH/short header.

7. Cooling system shall be upgrade. actually it's really difficult. the most difficult things if you were using daily drive in burning globe.

Not only, modern Radiator, tractor size ATF cooler, oil cooler, water pump/electric,
and PWN control modern electric fan, huge Alternator, delete all old wiring, delete old fuse box etc.
Not to mention air flow of engine room.


also may need some enthusiasm and rain making.

so I thought this might be for Skeleton in my private garage.

Best,

Speed NIIBE

 

[TimL]

@NIIBE, thank you for all the information. That sounds like a crazy ambitious undertaking which few people would ever go and pursue. Good stuff!

 

[NIIBE]

This sounds like an amazing build, NIIBE!

Just curious, what is the best performance you had at the dragstrip with your current 6-liter M119? I.e., best ET (time) and best speed (km/h)?

GSXR！　Long time no see you and thank you for you comment,

As I might talk to you,
Japan drag way at Sendai High land was demolished and turned to solar panel electric place.
Ashamed to say, that was only one drag race strip in Japan.

As I remember, the first trial was around 12.88 sec,
and after I reached 12.1 sec around with LH module 6.0 with short prime header 722.3 trans.

I changed clever Strand alone ECU Motec M800, It was sorry that I could not try to run at strip with Christmas tree in Japan.

I linked my result of dyno setting with M800 Motec (old version) in mid summer 2015. OH it was already 8years before!

the result was

363.1kw/6130rpm　590.8nm/3100rpm　Intake temp 71℃/998hpa, around 486.9HP.

500E Dyno result on summer day

You can also refer 3D fuel setting map of ECU and you can find 550cc injector was ７３．５％ at 4500rpm, i.e drinking
404cc/min each cylinder.

FUEL MAP OF M800/M119

I hope it may reach around mid to late 11 sec SS 1/4 mile with radial drag tire.
I spend time and enjoyed with M119 motors in my life.

and almost as fast and can chase my wife's shopping and horse stable express, station wagon C63.
She is feeding pump with full service at gas stand for M156 motor,

Hence I shall prepare drum can open and give Race gas or Aviation gas by hand for M119 motor.

Forever Young at Heart!

SPEED Niibe

 

[195910]

I appreciate the effort and resources put into the modifications. For those of us concerned about authenticity of the 124036 and its character, the short/mid headers would be a nice bolt-on modifications that would add to the power and is reversible. I hope more details on a finished product can be provided.

 

[ArauzMotoring]

Beautiful work! Can’t wait to see the finished item!

 

[NIIBE]

I forget to mentioned about important part that is steering gearbox.
As you know, W124 including 500E have old style, Ball and Nuts steering gear box.

Sorry to say, These are very heavy and dull feeling for sporty car. and space kill old gear.

When I decided to dare to choose 180 degree headers, I abandoned genuine steering gear box and convert
rack and pinion.

I believe that this is very common way for American hot rod, as such as Ford T and/or Mustang.

I pulled up some ZF rack and pinion and try to fit w124036 body.

It is pretty easy than you thought, I am not a first penguin !
At least one guy done conversion.

for more detail see my blog and study or just translate to Japanese!

ステアリング　ラックアンドピニオン　コンバージョン　明日のためにその１ - 500E倶楽部 編集後記

Niibe Speed

 

[Draginev]

I forget to mentioned about important part that is steering gearbox.
As you know, W124 including 500E have old style, Ball and Nuts steering gear box.

Sorry to say, These are very heavy and dull feeling for sporty car. and space kill old gear.

When I decided to dare to choose 180 degree headers, I abandoned genuine steering gear box and convert
rack and pinion.

I believe that this is very common way for American hot rod, as such as Ford T and/or Mustang.

I pulled up some ZF rack and pinion and try to fit w124036 body.

It is pretty easy than you thought, I am not a first penguin !
At least one guy done conversion.

View attachment 176862View attachment 176863

for more detail see my blog and study or just translate to Japanese!

ステアリング　ラックアンドピニオン　コンバージョン　明日のためにその１ - 500E倶楽部 編集後記

Niibe Speed

This is so good, finally I could see someone solved this issue with steering box in the way! Thanks for showing the video!

 

[jhodg5ck]

Ah, NIIBE San! Good to see you are still doing your work

Thank you for your time and dedication to the M119 and 500E...!

 

[chicky]

Ah, NIIBE San! Good to see you are still doing your work

Thank you for your time and dedication to the M119 and 500E...!

Hello Jonathan,

I sent you a private message inquiry, please check your PM's.

Thank you

 

[Markus-MD]

In my opinion does works fnot fine.Sorry In the Video you have seen the wishbone are cutted and welding and the upper connecting point looks not massive.and the angel for the universaljoint ist maybe unfortunel.
Here in Germany does not became or drive street legal.
And one other important point.but this i will too discus with niibe on privat talk.
ist aus dieser Sicht nicht mobil.
Next week i will make some pics from my built. aproxx 4 years back.was not a 500 only a230
The result was not good cant drive .real shit

 

[jhodg5ck]

Hello Jonathan,

I sent you a private message inquiry, please check your PM's.

Thank you

Ah, I bad with those..email is always Best, alt text, but will check!

 

[NIIBE]

In my opinion does works fnot fine.Sorry In the Video you have seen the wishbone are cutted and welding and the upper connecting point looks not massive.and the angel for the universaljoint ist maybe unfortunel.
Here in Germany does not became or drive street legal.
And one other important point.but this i will too discus with niibe on privat talk.
ist aus dieser Sicht nicht mobil.
Next week i will make some pics from my built. aproxx 4 years back.was not a 500 only a230
The result was not good cant drive .real shit

Markus MD,

Thank you for your concern,
I agree with your concern. especially lower arm cut and Universal joints angle for my project purpose.

My citation You tube video, may not 100% perfect but we very much respect his challenging and trial.
So I could easily reach at this point.

I believe that saying, observation is easy but doing, sweating and working by own effort is another stage : )


Owing to his knowledge and experience,
follower Penguin are relatively easier than the first Penguin. so I have to modified and add extra on his job.

These are tentative trial for my header with my other 500E body. Sorry for RUSTED but enough for testing.





I choose W210 rack and pinion cause of 500E cross member shape and Fix bolts location of Rack and Pinion. front of the case.
For example, R230 or w211, their Rack and Pinion Fix bolts are located at Rear of the case.

I managed to put the RP tube case as higher as I can with minor frame modification for locating the mounting bracket.


Left and Right are as shown. no need to modify and cut the Lower arm itself, and could reduce the Bump steer.
Tie rod and nuts are tentative, RP is not over hauled yet, cause of just for header builds purpose.




Tentative Mounting Bracket is as shown, it would be made by G5 Titanium or may weld laser cut and reinforced steal Tab to the subframe
Directly.

This time I am trying to make bolt on type for following Penguins.

Speed Niibe

 

[NIIBE]

Long story make short. Probably fixed the shape of both side.

if you would need more info detail is here.

M119 エンジンのたこ足　（35）　　180°集合　　右バンク解説２　裏勝りの美学 | 500E倶楽部 編集後記

大昔のベンツを通じた、ブルジョア趣味の発露、Tuningとテクノロジーを考察し、真理の探求を行なう。https://www.facebook.com/E500E

mercedesbenznetcom.blog81.fc2.com

Looks like the Eight heads Dragon that Japanese mythology ．Yamata No Orochi

Speed Niibe

 

[500AMM]

I have been using short runner header with my 6 litter M119 Motor with stand alone ECU/ Motec M800 and 722.6 5speed trans conversion.
I do not have any necessity to changed current setting for daily driving and some strip trial.

hence I am building new motor with solid tappet and billet camshaft, I shall try to make new header that I long time studied.

It would be 180 degree marge, i.e Cross bank. 1-4, 2-3,5-8, 6-7 180 degree marge as 1st φ48.6　inconel 1,0mm rolled pipe,
2nd is 1-4(R) with 6-7(L) and 5-8 (L) with 2-3(L) after trans, around drive shaft center bearing area 2nd φ60.5 also Inconel 1.0mm rolled pipe.
3rd is scratching but around φ80　around, 4th would be depend on road clearance.

I realized that we need 4 or 8 O2 sensor for sequential injector control with 180 degree marge / cross plane crank : )


Speed Niibe

Hello Niibe!
Those headers are an impressing piece of craftmanship!

It's many years ago now, but being a platefitter and welder myself for several years I do understand what it takes to do something like that. Inconel is the best choice of material with good stability at high temps. Just like jet engines where the rear section, the exhaust case/housing, often are in Inconel/Nickel base alloys. It's a very expensive material BTW.

Interesting to see the conversion to rack & pinion. Some years ago I saw a guy doing that on a W201, it came out with the same set-up of linkages on the steering stem. It is also very few choices of rack & pinion for the 036, because it has to sit behind the traverse and the pinion has to work above the rack, not below, to get the wheels turning in the correct direction. I think the W210 R&P is the only choice to keep it MB branded. Did you make custom steering anchors/arms on the wheel hub to maintain a proper turning radius?

Did you consider removing the oil filter housing and install a remote oil filter unit? It would free up some space on that side of the engine.

 

[NIIBE]

> Inconel is the best choice of material with good stability at high temps. Just like jet engines where the rear section, the exhaust case/housing, often are in Inconel/Nickel base alloys. It's a very expensive material BTW.

Thank you for your comment.
The Inconel would be the best material for Turbo and its headers, but the worst material for crafting and who concern saving money.

The reason why I dare to choose such over spec Material is just the inspiration of my younger days.
It was when Honda was Strong at Turbo F1 days.
I had a chance to observe the Inconel headers of Honda F1 turbo car. Then, I am still sticking such crazy material until my elderly days.

Also I have heard that even Toyota LFA could not use such material for their V10 headers cause of Budget.

I re-realize that common 304 stainless or Steel are enough for normal NA cars and reduce budget.

> I think the W210 R&P is the only choice to keep it MB branded. Did you make custom steering anchors/arms on the wheel hub to maintain a proper turning radius?

My W210 R&P is from junk yard for testing. and made by ZF. Lock to Lock is ordinary street driven car, but may change if we would use
another sports car. or We may choose Electric direct R&P. That can save power steering pump and oil line.
As far as my testing in the factory land, turning angle and radius , bump steer are no problem with 17inch 8.25J / 245 Limited wheel / no-low down.

I am just using and testing old tie rod, turn buckles right now. and will change setting in case.

As far as current status, this R&P conversion is not so difficult than I thought for the no-low down 500E.
For me, It was difficult to find the critical problem or technical demerit to convert to R&P.

removing the oil filter housing and install a remote oil filter unit? It would free up some space on that side of the engine.

M119 has thermostat and Pressure relief valve, and some oil pressure keeping in this big oil filter.
I may change in case, but I could not find the any demerit with this current Oil filter at this moment.

Hence, I am planning to choose external 4 stage dry sump, fabricated pan, tank and Oil filter for next Hi rev motor. But still long way.


Niibe Speed