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Rising Values
- Thread starter colombian_gringo
- Start date
Jeff -
Thanks for the clarification. I guess mine is considered fully loaded as I have the rear head rests as well. I have not seen another with this option but that is simply my observation from ones I see on the road.
Thanks for parting out the automatics (and keep up the good work!) because the fewer there are, the more mine (with 67K miles) is worth! ;-)
Robert
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Obviously, Klink, gsxr's never seen/driven a Brabus or Väth A-Klasse.....
Reminds me a bit an Ope/Vauxhall Astra
One of my mechanic friends in Sarasota (old school track guy), who used to drive a 190E Cosworth back in the day bought a CLA 45 -- the car blew my mind, again "for what it is." Definitely on the radar if you like smaller performance cars.
maw
190rev is a pretty good 190E resource. Some guys there are very passionate about thier cars. They do group "builds" for anything from camber kits to delrin shift bushings. Pretty good crowd.
The AMG "A" class cars, which the CLA 45 is a "member" of, are an absolue blast, and they don't beat you senseless, as I had expected...
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Sorry guys. I meant Smart... the A-class is a medium-size fridge.
Smart is the mini-fridge... or maybe a foam cooler?
These are pretty cool with you drop a motorcycle motor in them.
I know right?! Funny. They give zero fuxxx about modern Benzes around here. I cringe when I mention my S55 cuz it's a "cheap" W220.
maw
Oh man, you are petting my peeve there! The "anything newer than the particular car I own is garbage" peeve. It's like I have pointed out before, most of us here are bat shit goofy over 124s, and I very much include myself in that "goofy" group, but I know other older car people that wouldn't own one of these plastic bumpered, plastic radiatored, plastic interiored pieces of crap if you handed him one free of charge. Seriously!
I was an employee at the dealer watching the first 124 roll off of the truck in late '95, and except for that idiot Klink, oh wait, that's me, just about everyone present attempted to outdo everyone else, as if they were in a contest to see who could come up with the most derisive comments.
There is a cult around 190's now, as well there should be. Its chassis engineering represented a complete breakthrough not even possible before their were Cray supercomputers to crunch the math. Yet it was commonly thought of as the worst possible thing ever, designed only to cater to noobs and boobs that had no idea what a Mercedes Benz should be.
I've had an "expert" show me and tell me that a Ponton was the last real Mercedes-Benz as he went between his round body 190 and his fintail 190 and pointed out to me how he could not flex the bumpers on the ponton with his bare hands, but he could on the finnie, the true usefulness of bumpers relative to energy absorbing crumple zones be damned.
I've got an older friend that truly is an MB expert, and was a fabulous mechanical mentor, and I remember him absolutely having a cow upon seeing the power seat switches as the first 126 was coming off the truck. Upon seeing the plastic radiator, exactly like in that "garbage" 123, he was done with it. The 126 and 124 are his favorite MBs today, and yes, they are the last ones that were "worth a damn".
I have a similarly minded older friend and mentor up north, and just a couple of years ago he got his first 210 station wagon. He loves it. But he is having absolutely no truck with that "crap 220 or 211", that's for sure.
I've said it before, and I will say it again: If I live long enough I am going to hear some "expert" say that the CLA was the last MB that didn't suck, as he elaborates, "That was when they knew how to make a good electric steering rack!" He will be impressing himself, and mistakenly thinking that he is impressing me with that observation...
I give that an 8.4Oh man, you are petting my peeve there! The "anything newer than the particular car I own is garbage" peeve. It's like I have pointed out before, most of us here are bat shit goofy over 124s, and I very much include myself in that "goofy" group, but I know other older car people that wouldn't own one of these plastic bumpered, plastic radiatored, plastic interiored pieces of crap if you handed him one free of charge. Seriously!
I was an employee at the dealer watching the first 124 roll off of the truck in late '95, and except for that idiot Klink, oh wait, that's me, just about everyone present attempted to outdo everyone else, as if they were in a contest to see who could come up with the most derisive comments.
There is a cult around 190's now, as well there should be. Its chassis engineering represented a complete breakthrough not even possible before their were Cray supercomputers to crunch the math. Yet it was commonly thought of as the worst possible thing ever, designed only to cater to noobs and boobs that had no idea what a Mercedes Benz should be.
I've had an "expert" show me and tell me that a Ponton was the last real Mercedes-Benz as he went between his round body 190 and his fintail 190 and pointed out to me how he could not flex the bumpers on the ponton with his bare hands, but he could on the finnie, the true usefulness of bumpers relative to energy absorbing crumple zones be damned.
I've got an older friend that truly is an MB expert, and was a fabulous mechanical mentor, and I remember him absolutely having a cow upon seeing the power seat switches as the first 126 was coming off the truck. Upon seeing the plastic radiator, exactly like in that "garbage" 123, he was done with it. The 126 and 124 are his favorite MBs today, and yes, they are the last ones that were "worth a damn".
I have a similarly minded older friend and mentor up north, and just a couple of years ago he got his first 210 station wagon. He loves it. But he is having absolutely no truck with that "crap 220 or 211", that's for sure.
I've said it before, and I will say it again: If I live long enough I am going to hear some "expert" say that the CLA was the last MB that didn't suck, as he elaborates, "That was when they knew how to make a good electric steering rack!" He will be impressing himself, and mistakenly thinking that he is impressing me with that observation...
Thank you!
Needs a little work as to flow, it's a bit "jumpy" and would have been better to start out with the 190s/Finnies, then progress to the 123, then 126, then 190 and then 124. But not bad.
One of the mechanics at MBI Motors in Portland, Larry (who is their resident 6.3 expert), says that any car later than the W123 is "plastic junk" and he simply won't work on them. Literally ... the management of the shop just didn't put anything newer than a 126 on his lift. Larry is a big bear of a man, and looks very similar to the "Duck Dynasty" guys with a beard and all.
It was always quite funny to have that conversation with him, especially when my E500 was around.
One of the mechanics at MBI Motors in Portland, Larry (who is their resident 6.3 expert), says that any car later than the W123 is "plastic junk" and he simply won't work on them. Literally ... the management of the shop just didn't put anything newer than a 126 on his lift. Larry is a big bear of a man, and looks very similar to the "Duck Dynasty" guys with a beard and all.
It was always quite funny to have that conversation with him, especially when my E500 was around.
Oh man, you are petting my peeve there! The "anything newer than the particular car I own is garbage" peeve. It's like I have pointed out before, most of us here are bat shit goofy over 124s, and I very much include myself in that "goofy" group, but I know other older car people that wouldn't own one of these plastic bumpered, plastic radiatored, plastic interiored pieces of crap if you handed him one free of charge. Seriously!
I was an employee at the dealer watching the first 124 roll off of the truck in late '95, and except for that idiot Klink, oh wait, that's me, just about everyone present attempted to outdo everyone else, as if they were in a contest to see who could come up with the most derisive comments.
There is a cult around 190's now, as well there should be. Its chassis engineering represented a complete breakthrough not even possible before their were Cray supercomputers to crunch the math. Yet it was commonly thought of as the worst possible thing ever, designed only to cater to noobs and boobs that had no idea what a Mercedes Benz should be.
I've had an "expert" show me and tell me that a Ponton was the last real Mercedes-Benz as he went between his round body 190 and his fintail 190 and pointed out to me how he could not flex the bumpers on the ponton with his bare hands, but he could on the finnie, the true usefulness of bumpers relative to energy absorbing crumple zones be damned.
I've got an older friend that truly is an MB expert, and was a fabulous mechanical mentor, and I remember him absolutely having a cow upon seeing the power seat switches as the first 126 was coming off the truck. Upon seeing the plastic radiator, exactly like in that "garbage" 123, he was done with it. The 126 and 124 are his favorite MBs today, and yes, they are the last ones that were "worth a damn".
I have a similarly minded older friend and mentor up north, and just a couple of years ago he got his first 210 station wagon. He loves it. But he is having absolutely no truck with that "crap 220 or 211", that's for sure.
I've said it before, and I will say it again: If I live long enough I am going to hear some "expert" say that the CLA was the last MB that didn't suck, as he elaborates, "That was when they knew how to make a good electric steering rack!" He will be impressing himself, and mistakenly thinking that he is impressing me with that observation...
It's not that I think other models are not as good, it's simply that they do nothing for me, design-wise. Other than the Gullwing and Pagoda SL's, old MB's are just old cars to me. For the newer models, there's only a couple that I like enough to consider buying but probably won't, W204 C63 and W211 E55/E63.
No love for poor W210....
I love yours. The car looks amazing and had me wanting one.
Thanks Ken. I know the W210's don't get a lot of love and trust me I hear it from both Captruff and Matt who like a lot of MB mechanics believes the W124 was the highwater mark for Benz. That said the more I'm seeing and learning about these cars through my current 500E restoration it would definitely be pretty tough to argue against that perspective. However even with that being the case I just still like W210's, always have. In addition I love the OM606 turbo, it makes for a great driver and unlike most "normal" people I like all the clatter it makes. Anyways just my 2 cents....
PS: I never miss a chance to bust Jeff's balls about 210's because for a guy who is also not a big fan of them either he arguably has not one but two of the rarest (and probably most expensive) examples in the country. [emoji38]
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Sheesh! everyone's a critic. 90% of that was just yacked into my phone, free association. But I'll happily take an 8.4.
That speaks well of him. As I have said here before, absolute consistency only infects the smallest of minds...
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The 210 is one of the only Benzes that I let non-rabid enthusiasts buy without suffering through a "Here's what you're in for" lecture. They are about as reliable as the innocent imagine a Benz is.
You mentioned the Turbo-D and I'm LOL, because technicians and salesmen suck them up for personal transport with a spoon! Same for the 211 inline six diesels, btw. Retail and wholesale customers NEVER get a shot at one, despite the considerable price premium over the gas cars, which I actually personally prefer because they are even easier ($) to own than the diesels, and I really love the light front end feel that the M112/113 engine cars have. And the gearing, throttle curving, etc. of the M112/113/OM606 210s is absolutely superb.
Then, there is my personal fave of 210s, the wagons. So big, comfortable, and versatile. Tracks like a laser and pounds any highway flat at extra legal speeds, yet it never feels lumpish or heavy, and under those conditions it still returns mileages on premium in the high twenties. It also reaches the automotive ideal of feeling and behaving the same in any condition of load or speed. Did I mention that they are big? Out of the 6 current cars in the fleet (I know, I know...), it's the first one we grab for almost any use.
Yet, I understand some feeling the lack of a sense of occasion about them. But continued exposure and use tends to engender respect, as opposed to contempt for them. I also had little love for them when they were first released new, but I developed it over time as they have proven themselves. I'd love me some 210 E55 wagon!! Watched them being assembled in late '97. I may build one in the future, as it's an almost 100 percent bolt on, minimal modification job.
As a general matter, it's all about the performance SClass for me. This whole EClass thing is a departure from that, but it acts like an SClass shoved into a smaller chassis, so somehow it just works. When I grow up, I want to get right back to the lineage leading from the Red Pig to the current -- there's room for a 6.3, a 6.9, and even a W221 65 series car on that list.
There's just something that I love about a car that big that doesn't "act" big. It's a rolling contradiction, sheer defiance of any principles that would call for compromise, yet they balance those contradictions so extremely well as to make them "no compromise" vehicles.
But yeah, the wonder of an old car in a world where virtually nothing is allowed to get old anymore, I think is a serious factor in rising values, and I see the curve starting earlier and earlier as we move into the future. Like, a good sub 100k mile 500E costs you about the same as a good sub 100k mile S55k, and that's a very interesting observation for someone who owns both.
Yet somehow it makes sense. If I had to make a prediction, it would be that the 25 year old models appreciate quickly enough to "make room" for the 15 year old models. We'll see.
maw
There's just something that I love about a car that big that doesn't "act" big. It's a rolling contradiction, sheer defiance of any principles that would call for compromise, yet they balance those contradictions so extremely well as to make them "no compromise" vehicles.
But yeah, the wonder of an old car in a world where virtually nothing is allowed to get old anymore, I think is a serious factor in rising values, and I see the curve starting earlier and earlier as we move into the future. Like, a good sub 100k mile 500E costs you about the same as a good sub 100k mile S55k, and that's a very interesting observation for someone who owns both.
Yet somehow it makes sense. If I had to make a prediction, it would be that the 25 year old models appreciate quickly enough to "make room" for the 15 year old models. We'll see.
maw
No love for poor W210....
I would love to own yours Eric. I was shocked how nice it looked.
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Funny you mention that too Klink. Without a sunroof the amount of headroom in my 210 is just absolutely ridiculous. I'm 6' 4" and I still have all the room in the world in that thing. Definitely more than both the W220 and W221 I previously owned. Other than for Jeff's E60 I had never seen another 210 without a sunroof but according to a retired MB salesman Jeff and I know quite a few of them came to the states (especially in the Diesels) and they pretty much all came in through Texas which holds true for my car as well as although it was a one owner AZ car it's entire life the window sticker shows that is was initially delivered to Park Place Motorcars of Houston. Just a theory on my part but perhaps those Texans wanted the extra headroom so they could roll while still sporting their 10 gallon lids...
If I had to buy a 210, it would be the exact turb'diesel model that you own, 600Eric.
IMHO the E55 AMG W210 is nothing special. There was no special engineering that went into it like was done with the .036. It's a "bolt on parts" special. And I've mentioned it before, but I actually saw an E55 210 in Belgium that was on its THIRD M113 because the previous two engines had failed. How many 500Es out there do you see on their third engine?
IMHO the E55 AMG W210 is nothing special. There was no special engineering that went into it like was done with the .036. It's a "bolt on parts" special. And I've mentioned it before, but I actually saw an E55 210 in Belgium that was on its THIRD M113 because the previous two engines had failed. How many 500Es out there do you see on their third engine?
We just can't find anything wrong with our W210 4matic wagaon. It is EXTREMELY reliable and is the perfect size for hauling around the kidos. I think a W211 wagon, being a bit smaller, won't fit the bill....so may be forced to take a look at the R class or GL class as an alternative family hauler. But, with only 106k miles on the wagon, I'm pretty sure we are set for at least another couple years! While the W210 E55 may not be special....if I could get one in a wagon format, that would be shwiiinnng!!!
A couple of months ago, a friend in Canada was looking to buy a Japan import W210 E55 wagon. I can't remember exactly but I think the price was around $10K. Very low mileage (as is the case with a lot of Japanese imports). I was begging with him to get it, but, as is the custom, life intervened and he had to put his car hunt on hold. Of course the car is no longer available. Fortunately for him, I don't think he quite knows what he missed so he won't have too many regrets.
We all like to be nostalgic about our cars, but progress is a reality. The W210 E55 is a beast of a car that's very easily to live with daily. The AMG 5.4 engine is special in itself and it's what makes the car. It's hugely powerful and even though I love the M119, there is no doubt that M113 is a far more reliable motor as I've had zero trouble with my E55 mechanically.
It may not do anything for you, but given that the design is 10 years newer then the 124, it going to be a better car, as the 211 betters it and a 212 betters the 211.
I think that's a very subjective statement with regard to the M119 being less reliable than the M113. We've actually got a comparison thread on the topic, and I would say with all of the input on that thread that it's more or less a "wash" in terms of reliability.
I have not owned an M113, but I have had in-depth conversations with Bobby Scroggins, who owns Scroggins Machine Shop here in Houston (the shop all of the MB and BMW dealers use for their engine work) and he says hands down that the M117 and M119 are far better motors (for what they are) than any Benz V-8 motor made since.
Bobby is not biased because he works on all makes and models of motors; just what he sees anecdotally from what comes through his shop. He says that some of the very latest MB motors are shockingly appalling in terms of their quality -- particularly the valvetrains on the M272 and M273, which were derived from the M112 and M113.
Something about balance shaft gears on both engines, and idle gears on the M273, and valvetrains.
Honestly, I don't care - I'm just relaying information from a professional who's done engines his whole life/career.
I have not owned an M113, but I have had in-depth conversations with Bobby Scroggins, who owns Scroggins Machine Shop here in Houston (the shop all of the MB and BMW dealers use for their engine work) and he says hands down that the M117 and M119 are far better motors (for what they are) than any Benz V-8 motor made since.
Bobby is not biased because he works on all makes and models of motors; just what he sees anecdotally from what comes through his shop. He says that some of the very latest MB motors are shockingly appalling in terms of their quality -- particularly the valvetrains on the M272 and M273, which were derived from the M112 and M113.
Something about balance shaft gears on both engines, and idle gears on the M273, and valvetrains.
Honestly, I don't care - I'm just relaying information from a professional who's done engines his whole life/career.
Unfortunately there's not much love for 202s/208s/210s and early 203s/209s due to rust issues. And that's the stigma especially here in the UK. The AMG variants of such series are probably the only ones that are worth a drive and owning nowadays (forgive me, I'm talking UK/Euro trend here) since other pedestrian models have rusted away and no real value. Certainly these late 90s AMGs , 55s/32s the like, are best bang for buck, or a lot of car for the money as we say , if you want an entertaining drive and easy to live with. A well maintained AMG55 is worth just about the same as GVZ's deferred maintenance cost on a 036, so to me they make nice DDs , left on the street and not worry about it too much type of semi high performance car.
My CLK55 is starting to show a bit of rust spots here and there but I'm not overly concerned as it will never be a collector IMO, and as Al says "it's the 5.4 what makes the car itself" , for me anyway. Plus I'm not really sure how long I'm gonna keep it. Can't really comment on the reliability of the M113 (yet) since I've only done 1kmiles and it's currently reading 80kmiles 2001 model, but service records shows only 1 major item replaced - water pump. Oh I've since replaced Valve cover gaskets which apparently is common on M113s to seep oil from. Feel wise, i still prefer the rawness of the M119. And boy, I've never known a V8 to stumble so much at idle , what's with that , Al , Klink ?? So far all I get is, "oh they all do that!" Right , Trae ?
Attachments
Of course it's all subjective as we're discussing opinions and not conducting scientific research. This even applies to the machinist as all he's likely to be seeing is failed engines with more failures coming from M273 powered cars as more are worth fixing.
The way I see it is that every decade, MB comes out with something really innovative and manages to make it unreliable enough for someone to want to sue them.
The W126 era with the M117's had the cam wear, oiler problem, chain guide problems and HG and valve job at 250k.
The 500E era with the M119 bought you chain guide, oiler and failing wiring harnesses
The W210 era bought on the rust / spring perch problem, harmonic balancers in the M112 and fleece filter update in the M112/M113 motors.
M273 had balance shaft, so on and so forth.
As someone who's owned an M117, M119 and M113 powered cars, the M113 powered Mercedes have been by far the least troublesome cars that I've owned. The M119 is a sweeter engine in my opinion which is why I loved my E420 and why I specifically looked for a 98 SL500 in my search for an R129.
No doubt they can fail, I have a 99 Sl500 parts car with a blown head gasket. It also came with 3 24 inch rims and a spare mounted so my suspicion is that the previous owner was not the meticulous type when it came to maintenance
It would be interesting to see how this trend moves going forward as the engines make more and more hp. The new M278 makes about 430hp from a TT 4.6 liter v8. Even though it's not an AMG version, it sounds pretty highly strung.
The way I see it is that every decade, MB comes out with something really innovative and manages to make it unreliable enough for someone to want to sue them.
The W126 era with the M117's had the cam wear, oiler problem, chain guide problems and HG and valve job at 250k.
The 500E era with the M119 bought you chain guide, oiler and failing wiring harnesses
The W210 era bought on the rust / spring perch problem, harmonic balancers in the M112 and fleece filter update in the M112/M113 motors.
M273 had balance shaft, so on and so forth.
As someone who's owned an M117, M119 and M113 powered cars, the M113 powered Mercedes have been by far the least troublesome cars that I've owned. The M119 is a sweeter engine in my opinion which is why I loved my E420 and why I specifically looked for a 98 SL500 in my search for an R129.
No doubt they can fail, I have a 99 Sl500 parts car with a blown head gasket. It also came with 3 24 inch rims and a spare mounted so my suspicion is that the previous owner was not the meticulous type when it came to maintenance
It would be interesting to see how this trend moves going forward as the engines make more and more hp. The new M278 makes about 430hp from a TT 4.6 liter v8. Even though it's not an AMG version, it sounds pretty highly strung.
Unfortunately there's not much love for 202s/208s/210s and early 203s/209s due to rust issues. And that's the stigma especially here in the UK. The AMG variants of such series are probably the only ones that are worth a drive and owning nowadays (forgive me, I'm talking UK/Euro trend here) since other pedestrian models have rusted away and no real value. Certainly these late 90s AMGs , 55s/32s the like, are best bang for buck, or a lot of car for the money as we say , if you want an entertaining drive and easy to live with. A well maintained AMG55 is worth just about the same as GVZ's deferred maintenance cost on a 036, so to me they make nice DDs , left on the street and not worry about it too much type of semi high performance car.
My CLK55 is starting to show a bit of rust spots here and there but I'm not overly concerned as it will never be a collector IMO, and as Al says "it's the 5.4 what makes the car itself" , for me anyway. Plus I'm not really sure how long I'm gonna keep it. Can't really comment on the reliability of the M113 (yet) since I've only done 1kmiles and it's currently reading 80kmiles 2001 model, but service records shows only 1 major item replaced - water pump. Oh I've since replaced Valve cover gaskets which apparently is common on M113s to seep oil from. Feel wise, i still prefer the rawness of the M119. And boy, I've never known a V8 to stumble so much at idle , what's with that , Al , Klink ?? So far all I get is, "oh they all do that!" Right , Trae ?
The rust issues are kind of a big problem in the UK where almost every 10 year old car needs chassis welding to get through an MOT. Fortunately, my perspective comes from someone who now lives in Texas where every nut and bolt under my 13 year old E55 looks brand spanking new.
The 99 and onward cars are supposed to have been dipped at the factory and less prone to rust but I would not matter if the car has been subjected to year on year road salting. If I lived in London or Chicago, I'd reconsider owning a W210 or buy a winter car to hack around in.
The stumble at idle may be the pedal position sensor. I've experienced this in the E55 and there is a rest procedure that you can google.
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Unfortunately there's not much love for 202s/208s/210s and early 203s/209s due to rust issues. And that's the stigma especially here in the UK. The AMG variants of such series are probably the only ones that are worth a drive and owning nowadays (forgive me, I'm talking UK/Euro trend here) since other pedestrian models have rusted away and no real value. Certainly these late 90s AMGs , 55s/32s the like, are best bang for buck, or a lot of car for the money as we say , if you want an entertaining drive and easy to live with. A well maintained AMG55 is worth just about the same as GVZ's deferred maintenance cost on a 036, so to me they make nice DDs , left on the street and not worry about it too much type of semi high performance car.
My CLK55 is starting to show a bit of rust spots here and there but I'm not overly concerned as it will never be a collector IMO, and as Al says "it's the 5.4 what makes the car itself" , for me anyway. Plus I'm not really sure how long I'm gonna keep it. Can't really comment on the reliability of the M113 (yet) since I've only done 1kmiles and it's currently reading 80kmiles 2001 model, but service records shows only 1 major item replaced - water pump. Oh I've since replaced Valve cover gaskets which apparently is common on M113s to seep oil from. Feel wise, i still prefer the rawness of the M119. And boy, I've never known a V8 to stumble so much at idle , what's with that , Al , Klink ?? So far all I get is, "oh they all do that!" Right , Trae ?
Bing,
An OEM, like Bosch spark plug wire set will fix 99.9% of those. If your engine is fitted with exhaust gas recirculation, those valves will occasionally stick open a little at idle. They are easy to replace, and they are cheap, at least over here. Spark plug wire faults are chronically underdiagnosed on that motor, the twin ignition often masking what would otherwise be an easy and obvious diagnosis.
And, you mentioned the valve covers. If you had any marginal plug wires, and if they are original you did, the flexing and stress placed on them during servicing of the valve covers usually pushes some of them right over the edge. I've seen some high mileage engines with so many failed plug wires after valve cover servicing that they would not start.
There is a way to precisely tell which plug wires are giving you a problem, but it requires an SDS machine, or a seriously intense aftermarket scanner with access to the "actuations" functions of the engine control module, and I don't even know if such an aftermarket animal exists. Then again, here in Yank, the Bosch plug wire set actually costs less then three individual wires bought separately, and there are 16 of them, so I advise most people not to bother, and just replace the set.
So, if you haven't already done them I would throw in new plugs and wires. A new set of plugs and wires will require absolutely zero attention for at least another 150,000 KM.
[video=youtube;res40dhusLU]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=res40dhusLU[/video]
Re: FS: 1993 500E, 040 Black/Black, 189kmi, eBay (Las Vegas, NV)
I'm definitely putting [this one] on my watch list, although I believe macro-economics in the US are driving pricing for these cars more than the "intrinsic value" (as Buffet would say) of the cars themselves. Same as the one I posted yesterday. While both look like deals, they also reflect the seller's preference for liquidity (surprise, surprise). We'll see (not that a 98.3% feedback rating is likely to help).
maw
I'm definitely putting [this one] on my watch list, although I believe macro-economics in the US are driving pricing for these cars more than the "intrinsic value" (as Buffet would say) of the cars themselves. Same as the one I posted yesterday. While both look like deals, they also reflect the seller's preference for liquidity (surprise, surprise). We'll see (not that a 98.3% feedback rating is likely to help).
maw
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Re: FS: 1993 500E, 040 Black/Black, 189kmi, eBay (Las Vegas, NV)
I agree 100%, MAW. A heck of a lot of cars (not to mention stocks, etc.) are going up because of the economic bubble that is happening, not because of the actual value of the cars themselves. I have felt for the past couple of years that this is what is fundamentally driving E500E values by about 75%, with 25% being the "intrinsic value" factor among "those who know."
IMHO it's a darned good time to sell your collectable car(s) if you care to. Values will probably continue to go up for a little while longer, as the economic run continues, but as soon as interest rates start substantively rising, all bets are off. The US economy is going to be in a world of hurt when our costs of borrowing rises to finance our $18 trillion (and rising) national debt.
I agree 100%, MAW. A heck of a lot of cars (not to mention stocks, etc.) are going up because of the economic bubble that is happening, not because of the actual value of the cars themselves. I have felt for the past couple of years that this is what is fundamentally driving E500E values by about 75%, with 25% being the "intrinsic value" factor among "those who know."
IMHO it's a darned good time to sell your collectable car(s) if you care to. Values will probably continue to go up for a little while longer, as the economic run continues, but as soon as interest rates start substantively rising, all bets are off. The US economy is going to be in a world of hurt when our costs of borrowing rises to finance our $18 trillion (and rising) national debt.
Re: FS: 1993 500E, 040 Black/Black, 189kmi, eBay (Las Vegas, NV)
Agreed. But I'm looking at both sides of that coin. A mentor taught me decades ago, "either man has to work, or money has to. If you're not in a position where your money works for you, then off to work you go."
For those trying to "get it" (call them the 80% "workers" in the market), low interest rates, no real wage growth, and rumors of "appreciation" -- be it in cars, stock, houses or art -- means buying (maybe with hopes of improving) then selling for a profit. The same basic "buy low, sell high" activity that most are familiar with. That's driving the prices of these up, along with their "intrinsic value" for those who know and already own them.
The flipside is a bit more insidious. "Those who know and already own them" tend not to be the 80% workers. They tend to be the 20% investors in the market, who have a bit more coin and prefer the 500E over its more pedestrian siblings. Someone said it here best -- "truly a car for the 1%." So I slacked that way down to 20% -- same concept. Those folks know cash is king, particularly in down markets or their not-so-distant cousins, stagnant markets. That's where I think we are today, and have been really since '08 -- stagnant markets. Were it not for 0% money, we'd be in the dark ages.
So now, oil is dropping and the dollar is rising (because oil is priced in dollars), which means rates must go up. People will debate "when" until it happens. But a couple things are clear: (1) the 20%-ers out there are trading "assets" that cost them cash (these cars, large homes, boats, etc.) for cash; and (2) the folks fueling the stock bubble today are the 20%-ers who had cash to weather 2001 and 2008 -- the baby boomers who made off like bandits in the '80s and '90s. Hence both sides of the coin. Man working and money working. Buyers and sellers. Workers and owners. You get the picture.
Where you and I depart a bit (and reasonable minds can always differ, in this case depending upon whether you see more of the 80% or the 20%), is on what happens when those rates rise. My prediction is those who traded for liquidity today (sellers, I think we agree), will have more cash tomorrow, and therefore benefit more from rising interest rates, giving them more cash to spend, which always raises the value of rare items, while contributing more to income inequality, and that [very American] cycle becomes the snake that eats its tail. And this is where I see the values of sub-100k mile cars going through the roof. The others, the ones that are bought today by the 80% who may or may not be able to afford their care during that "world of hurt" you discuss, will go the other way toward the junkyard.
And that inverse correlation between the 80% and the 20% is why I used the term "insidious". It really is the essence of a pyramid, a snake that eats its tail. I actually think a good one of these (<100k miles, with maintenance provenance) is a $25k to $30k-ish car. I think the same car at between 100k miles and 150k miles, is a $18k-ish car. And I think between 150k and 200k miles is a $12k-ish car. And you can adjust from there for maintenance provenance. And I think those are the prices we WOULD be seeing if that "world of hurt" wasn't knocking on 80% of peoples' doors.
Sorry to be long-winded, but the complexity sort of commanded it.
Cheers,
maw
Agreed. But I'm looking at both sides of that coin. A mentor taught me decades ago, "either man has to work, or money has to. If you're not in a position where your money works for you, then off to work you go."
For those trying to "get it" (call them the 80% "workers" in the market), low interest rates, no real wage growth, and rumors of "appreciation" -- be it in cars, stock, houses or art -- means buying (maybe with hopes of improving) then selling for a profit. The same basic "buy low, sell high" activity that most are familiar with. That's driving the prices of these up, along with their "intrinsic value" for those who know and already own them.
The flipside is a bit more insidious. "Those who know and already own them" tend not to be the 80% workers. They tend to be the 20% investors in the market, who have a bit more coin and prefer the 500E over its more pedestrian siblings. Someone said it here best -- "truly a car for the 1%." So I slacked that way down to 20% -- same concept. Those folks know cash is king, particularly in down markets or their not-so-distant cousins, stagnant markets. That's where I think we are today, and have been really since '08 -- stagnant markets. Were it not for 0% money, we'd be in the dark ages.
So now, oil is dropping and the dollar is rising (because oil is priced in dollars), which means rates must go up. People will debate "when" until it happens. But a couple things are clear: (1) the 20%-ers out there are trading "assets" that cost them cash (these cars, large homes, boats, etc.) for cash; and (2) the folks fueling the stock bubble today are the 20%-ers who had cash to weather 2001 and 2008 -- the baby boomers who made off like bandits in the '80s and '90s. Hence both sides of the coin. Man working and money working. Buyers and sellers. Workers and owners. You get the picture.
Where you and I depart a bit (and reasonable minds can always differ, in this case depending upon whether you see more of the 80% or the 20%), is on what happens when those rates rise. My prediction is those who traded for liquidity today (sellers, I think we agree), will have more cash tomorrow, and therefore benefit more from rising interest rates, giving them more cash to spend, which always raises the value of rare items, while contributing more to income inequality, and that [very American] cycle becomes the snake that eats its tail. And this is where I see the values of sub-100k mile cars going through the roof. The others, the ones that are bought today by the 80% who may or may not be able to afford their care during that "world of hurt" you discuss, will go the other way toward the junkyard.
And that inverse correlation between the 80% and the 20% is why I used the term "insidious". It really is the essence of a pyramid, a snake that eats its tail. I actually think a good one of these (<100k miles, with maintenance provenance) is a $25k to $30k-ish car. I think the same car at between 100k miles and 150k miles, is a $18k-ish car. And I think between 150k and 200k miles is a $12k-ish car. And you can adjust from there for maintenance provenance. And I think those are the prices we WOULD be seeing if that "world of hurt" wasn't knocking on 80% of peoples' doors.
Sorry to be long-winded, but the complexity sort of commanded it.
Cheers,
maw
Re: FS: 1993 500E, 040 Black/Black, 189kmi, eBay (Las Vegas, NV)
Again, I agree. I was viewing this from the POV of your 80%, because that's where (I would assume, certainly myself included as a person who is probably toward the low-end of the 80%) most of the folks on this forum are sitting. The 20% "investors" you mention are largely immune and have a completely different set of motivations.
If I was a 20% person, I'd be moving as much of my wealth out of this country as I could, and likely be making my own exit strategy too. Most Federal agencies and large law enforcement agencies have quietly been buying up billions of rounds of ammunition and arms (a lot of it surplus equipment from the Gulf & Iraq/Afghanistan conflicts) because they realize that a serious period of civil unrest is on the not-too-distant horizon. These folks already have their exit strategy mapped out, and it's not staying/living in the US, or even Europe.
Again, I agree. I was viewing this from the POV of your 80%, because that's where (I would assume, certainly myself included as a person who is probably toward the low-end of the 80%) most of the folks on this forum are sitting. The 20% "investors" you mention are largely immune and have a completely different set of motivations.
If I was a 20% person, I'd be moving as much of my wealth out of this country as I could, and likely be making my own exit strategy too. Most Federal agencies and large law enforcement agencies have quietly been buying up billions of rounds of ammunition and arms (a lot of it surplus equipment from the Gulf & Iraq/Afghanistan conflicts) because they realize that a serious period of civil unrest is on the not-too-distant horizon. These folks already have their exit strategy mapped out, and it's not staying/living in the US, or even Europe.
Apparently there's some truth to that article. It appears values are on the rise for that car...
http://germancarsforsaleblog.com/1987-mercedes-benz-190e-2-3-16-4/
They are available now...a guy in New York just imported an Evo II now that they are 25 years old.
It will be interesting to see what that does to both values, and supply/demand, in USA and elsewhere.
