Ticking / Knock from crank not top of engine.

[Scot94]

So I recently picked up a second merc with a m119. I took it in to my mechainic (a West Berlin mercedes specialist) who rang me a day later and advised me to sell the car.

I took the car in because I had what I thought was the ticking sound (the cam oiler issue) and after inspection he said it was coming from the lower half of the engine, crank case etc. It sounds pretty similar to the classic cam ticking though!

I had asked him to service the car and fit a new fuel pump which he didnt bother with as he said it isnt worth it.


Is he over reacting or should I be ringing up the dealer who sold it to me?

 

[gsxr]

Got a video of the noise? If it's definitely a bottom-end knock, I'd consider returning the car if possible, assuming it isn't worth repairing / swapping the engine.

That said, bottom-end failures on M119 are absurdly rare.

 

[Scot94]

Ill take a video and post in an hour, yes i though bottom end issue were very rare also, so was very suprised.

 

[Scot94]

Here is the offending sound.

 

[gerryvz]

I would get a "second opinion" from another mechanic who is familiar with the M119 engine.

 

[Scot94]

I think I will do, thing is he is a 60 year old german guys whos been working on mercs since his teens. I guess even expoerts can be wrong.

 

[gsxr]

It does sound pretty close to a popped oil tube (or two). A second opinion would be a good idea.

A stethoscope would help locate the noise, a popped oil tube will cause a pretty loud tick up at the valve cover by the failed tube. If it's from the bottom end, there should be little change in sound as you move the probe across both valve covers.

 

[Joncf]

It really does sound like a lifter, but I’ve heard exhaust leaks that sound just like that too. The front pipes/gaskets could be rotted right in that area after the manifolds. It doesn’t sound deep or metallic as a bearing knock would.

 

[Scot94]

I am startin to doubt my mechainic now. I purchased a mechnical stethoscope, I did not remove the engine cover but when touching the right hand cyclinder bank there is clearly a ticking noise that is almost undectable on the other bank. When placed onto the main block lower in the engine also very little can be decerned.

Should I now be pretty confident its the cam oilers, and start searching for a metal set?

Stil gobsmacked that the Merc specialist didnt seem to figure this out.

 

[Scot94]

What the view on driving the car while its like this?

Thanks for all the answers its been very helpful!

 

[gsxr]

If it's an oil tube, it's ok to drive the car, but I'd limit driving until it's repaired. No unlimited Autobahn runs, etc.

To confirm you can pull the valve cover on the right cylinder bank and check the oil tubes. If you find one popped, you'll have your answer.

 

[timpurister]

Is the sound same all the time? I have a ticking noise coming from the same area, but only when engine temp is above 80. At least for me aluminium tubes and new oem-rings did not help, next step are the lifters.

Timo

 

[Scot94]

Yeah it's consistently there from start up.

 

[Benzy Boy]

I have this too
Did you resolve it? @timpurister @Scot94

 

[timpurister]

No, will change all lifters later this year.

 

[Scot94]

I collect is from the garage tomorrow so Ill let you know!

 

[Scot94]

Plastic oil tubes were the cause. Whilst open the tappets, chain guides and chain was also replaced.

 

[gsxr]

That's great news! I wonder if the original West Berlin Mercedes specialist wanted you to sell the car... to him.

 

[Scot94]

Well to be fair it wasnt a cheap job but ive also noticed way more torque below 2000 rpm now. As for the West Berlin garage I doubt it because its not on german plates.

This forum and a 20 euro stethoscope from amazon turned out to be way more reliable than somebody who has spent a lifetime working on older mercs.

 

[nocfn]

plastic works best often on things like tupperware, even they went out of business.

 

[Benzy Boy]

Next time go to the East Berlin Mercedes specialist

 

[gpaparo]

I just purchased a 98 SL500 and mine is doing the same exact noise. Does anyone know if the SL class has the same engine as the E with these oil cam tubes? If so where did you purchase the tubes straight from Mercedes or another source? Thanks.

 

[Benzy Boy]

I just purchased a 98 SL500 and mine is doing the same exact noise. Does anyone know if the SL class has the same engine as the E with these oil cam tubes? If so where did you purchase the tubes straight from Mercedes or another source? Thanks.

Some 98 models have the M119 engine and some have M113.

Open your hood and see if it has:



Or



If it's the latter then you don't have the same engine, so better luck addressing that on a forum for M113/M113k cars like the R230 and later years R129 (98-01). But if it's the first one then you do have oiler tubes so keep reading.

You can source these oiler tubes from a junkyard off a 1992 or earlier M119 Or you can buy a set of 16 used on ebay or this forum for around $200. Mercedes dealer only sells plastic ones and overpriced (double or triple what you pay for used metal oilers). Make sure to buy the o-rings too.

If your mileage is under 100,000 miles it probably isn't the plastic oiler tubes that failed yet. They fail as a result of time and mileage, and since yours is 98 it's relatively newer than the rest of the M119. Mine weren't broken and I was 97 with 70,000 miles, and I know someone with a 96 and 170,000 miles who also had all their plastic oilers intact despite a ticking sound. Sometimes the lifters can be loud on these cars for no reason. Change the oil to a 10w40 or 15w40 or higher depending on your climate and see if it goes away after a few drives.

 

[gsxr]

For the SL500, USA model year 1998 should always have the M119, and 1999 should always have the M113.

Outside of North America (and Japan), "model years" don't exist and it's a different story...

 

[gpaparo]

Hey thanks for getting back to me guys. Here is the pic of my current which is close to the first pic.

Some 98 models have the M119 engine and some have M113.

Open your hood and see if it has:

View attachment 175353

Or

View attachment 175354

If it's the latter then you don't have the same engine, so better luck addressing that on a forum for M113/M113k cars like the R230 and later years R129 (98-01). But if it's the first one then you do have oiler tubes so keep reading.

You can source these oiler tubes from a junkyard off a 1992 or earlier M119 Or you can buy a set of 16 used on ebay or this forum for around $200. Mercedes dealer only sells plastic ones and overpriced (double or triple what you pay for used metal oilers). Make sure to buy the o-rings too.

If your mileage is under 100,000 miles it probably isn't the plastic oiler tubes that failed yet. They fail as a result of time and mileage, and since yours is 98 it's relatively newer than the rest of the M119. Mine weren't broken and I was 97 with 70,000 miles, and I know someone with a 96 and 170,000 miles who also had all their plastic oilers intact despite a ticking sound. Sometimes the lifters can be loud on these cars for no reason. Change the oil to a 10w40 or 15w40 or higher depending on your climate and see if it goes away after a few drives.

Thanks for the reply. My engine is close to the first pic which I asume is the same engine just configured a little different (image attached)? The SL I have has 146k on its only a 2 owner car owned by the 2nd owner since 2001 he bought CPO at Benz dealer. I believe it sat a while because all of the fluids where really dirty. I flushed the brake fluid, anti freeze, power steering fluid. I also changed the oil and filter and used Liqui Molly 5w 40. I only drove a few 100 miles but engine noise is simular to the video where it sounds like underneath. I am going to add Liqui Molly engine flush when I have time in like a few weeks and maybe do it twice in a row to see if there is any sludge in there that I can remove unless you guys reccoment Seafoam or some other engine cleaner that works better. If Seafoam, would anyone recommend adding to the oil, intake and gas tank like they suggest on the bottle or no good for a German cars?

 

[gsxr]

If you have a ticking noise that sounds like a popped oil tube on YouTube videos, no amount of additives will help. And in general, additives should NOT be used in the engine oil, period.

Since you just bought the car, the next step is to remove both valve covers and inspect all 16 oil tubes. You need to do this anyway, to inspect the plastic chain rails... if any are broken, replace all of them...

 

[Benzy Boy]

Hey thanks for getting back to me guys. Here is the pic of my current which is close to the first pic.

Thanks for the reply. My engine is close to the first pic which I asume is the same engine just configured a little different (image attached)? The SL I have has 146k on its only a 2 owner car owned by the 2nd owner since 2001 he bought CPO at Benz dealer. I believe it sat a while because all of the fluids where really dirty. I flushed the brake fluid, anti freeze, power steering fluid. I also changed the oil and filter and used Liqui Molly 5w 40. I only drove a few 100 miles but engine noise is simular to the video where it sounds like underneath. I am going to add Liqui Molly engine flush when I have time in like a few weeks and maybe do it twice in a row to see if there is any sludge in there that I can remove unless you guys reccoment Seafoam or some other engine cleaner that works better. If Seafoam, would anyone recommend adding to the oil, intake and gas tank like they suggest on the bottle or no good for a German cars?View attachment 175372

Don't use engine flush or any other engine oil additive, they won't help you and are a waste of money.

You need to pull the valve covers and inspect inside. You will need to change the following parts:

Valve cover gaskets (1 for right 1 for left)
-1190101330
-1190101430

16 metal oiler tubes (get them on ebay or the marketplace here)

Timing chain guide plastics
-1190500216
-1190500316
-1190520916 (x2)
-1190160380 (x2) might be NLA from mercedes, so get victor-reinz as a last option

32 copper washers (6x10x1)

Use this excellent guide by gerry to help you

HOW-TO: Replacing M119 camshaft oiler tubes | "HOW-TO" Tutorial Articles

I recently was able to obtain a set of used, but good condition, metal M119 camshaft oiler tubes from a 500Eboard member. I decided to begin the installation procedure and finish it up this coming week as I get the E500 prepared for the trip to MBCA's StarTech meeting in Alabama during the...

www.500eboard.co

Also if the breather hoses have never been replaced, they will break when opening the valve covers, and you will have to replace them.

While you're in there check the timing chain for degrees of stretch.

If it's stretched then your lower guide rails are probably broken too and you'll have to change them, but it is a bigger job and more advanced than the upper guides.

If any of the plastics are broken in your inspection of the valve covers then you will need to drop the oil pan afterwards and clean them out. Make sure you clean out the oil pickup mesh of lodged plastics as well.

Since the oil wasn't changed in your car for a long time, then it will be helpful to change your oil and oil filter again. This time try a heavier oil like 10w40. This is also the only proper way to "flush" your engine, as the last oil you put in will help flush out any remaining gunk that may have been left over as it gets dissolved in the clean oil.

Also post a video of your engine sound.

 

[gpaparo]

Wow ok thanks for the info. I will see if my nm to wants to tackle this with me if not I will have someone take a look at it for me to get a number to do all this. Through videos I have seen the oil tubes on top see pretty straight forward. Have to set aside to time to do so. I will post a video sometime this week. Thanks again for all the info and part numbers. Much appreciated. I will look at the videos on this site as well.

 

[gpaparo]

Below is a 1 minute video of my engine when running. I tried to upload a video but had to create a link that I hope works. What do you think oi cam tubes? Runs good, no rough idle and starts right up everytime.

I also have a CEL and pulled 2 codes. P1519 which I ordered the solenoid and it seems like easy swap.

The other code P0455 I believe is the fuel cap. I flipped the rubber piece and it did not work so I will buy a new gas cap for it and then go from there. Do they sell the rubber fitting or just buy a new cap and where should I purchase?
The purge sounds like it is working as I hear and feel the clicking/tap sound it makes.

Thanks again guys for any help.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1x_t2os64YsvSqcLx40_0szzxPGjn6ycc/view?usp=sharing

 

[gsxr]

The cam solenoids almost never, ever fail. Check the wiring first, measure resistance of the solenoid, etc. You can apply +12v to the solenoid with the engine off and listen for a solid "clunk" when energized - compare both sides. If you hear that, it's working, and a new one won't change anything.

The OE gas cap can have the seal replaced separately, but flipping the old seal may work. If not, there may be another leak you have to chase down.

As I said before, if you don't have documentation showing the chain rails being replaced, you should pull both valve covers to inspect all the rails... and as Benzy said above, if ANY are broken, you then have to drop the oil pan to clean out the plastic debris. This is standard procedure when buying an M119 engine of any year/vintage.

 

[gpaparo]

Update on the 2 codes I pulled above. It was the Charcoal canister on the driver side. I opened up the wheel well and the tube was frayed and blown off the canister. I connected it back on the canister and all good. Next is to tackle the oil can tubes. I secured a set of metal preowned oil tubes on E-bay and bought all of the parts suggested above. Now to find the time to do the job. I will update once complete. Thanks for all the help so far. Appreciate it.