Transmission pan full spring carnage

[sleezybeezy]

Just picked up a 93 400E the other day at a price too good to pass up. I had a 3 hour drive home with no radio to asses the car. I've previously owned 2 other 400Es and almost too many 124s to count so I consider myself somewhat keen to the various issues these cars can develop. This is a new one to me.

On the drive home, I noticed that i could not achieve a 1st gear start no matter how much I floored it or played with the gearshift. The trans would also hang on the 2-3 shift at times and didn't want to go into 4th gear without some convincing with the throttle. Towards the end of the drive, it would also slip out of 4th gear when accelerating past 2500 rpm. None of this was too alarming to me. I chalked it up as very dirty fluid and/or fluid level being off. This was expected as the car came with a trans filter kit in the trunk. So today I figured I would that out today and see if I could rectify my erratic shifting. I drop the pan and almost cant believe my eyes when i find its full of bits of mangled springs of various sizes. Super.

I already know the fix is going to be swapping the trans out. I have a 92 400e parts car with a good trans so while frustrating, this isn't the end of the world. I am curious if anyone else has seen this level of spring carnage before or any ideas as to how this even happens. I plan on dissecting and possibly rebuilding this trans once I swap it out. But that could be a while before I get around to it. Any guesses on which springs this thing ate? I'm assuming the only answer is new trans, but has anyone had any luck replacing destroyed springs?

 

[gerryvz]

I have seen this a couple of times here on the forum. I believe the spring debris comes from the valve body.

You may want to try just swapping out the valve body with a good one, and see if that makes a difference. And of course a fluid and filter change. That fluid looks HORRIBLE.

If a valve body swap (I'd say this is an hour's job, max) doesn't do it, then you are indeed probably in line for a complete transmission swap. Good thing that you have a known-good spare. You should be able to do the swap in a weekend without too much difficulty, taking your time.

Good luck and keep us informed on your prognosis / progress.

 

[JC220]

Looks to me like the reverse piston springs have ate themselves. For ref:

 

[JC220]

I have seen this a couple of times here on the forum. I believe the spring debris comes from the valve body.

You may want to try just swapping out the valve body with a good one, and see if that makes a difference. And of course a fluid and filter change. That fluid looks HORRIBLE.

If a valve body swap (I'd say this is an hour's job, max) doesn't do it, then you are indeed probably in line for a complete transmission swap. Good thing that you have a known-good spare. You should be able to do the swap in a weekend without too much difficulty, taking your time.

Good luck and keep us informed on your prognosis / progress.

How can the springs come from inside the valve body, in that quantity?

Genuine question BTW - never thought it could be possible.

 

[gsxr]

I agree with Joe. Looks like reverse piston springs. The springs inside the valve body literally cannot escape into the pan, and still be recognizable as springs.

About the lack of first gear start, it may not be an original 400E transmission, or VB. Check the serial number stamped on the side and see if the first part (722 3xx) matches the proper 400E numbers. If so, then look for an inked part number on the bottom of the valve body and see if it's correct FGS. If the inked number is MIA you can look for the etched numbers on one corner of the VB, it's the upper half where you need the numbers (will be 124 xx). It would be unusual for first gear to not engage but given the carnage, maybe something else failed.

 

[gerryvz]

The pieces in the photos looked (to me) like small flexible tightly coiled spring pieces, not the larger round-coiled springs found in the reverse piston. That's all.

The OP didn't mention having or not having reverse, but did mention no FGS and a hung 2-3 shift. That to me would lead me more to think of a valve body problem, not a reverse problem.

The shift problems could also WELL be caused by bad fluid and filter. I also once had a bad shifting problem, and a fluid and filter change cured it immediately. The fluid I had was dino ATF, Dex III, with only 27K miles on it.

 

[daantjie]

Regardless where they're from, that's the stuff of nightmares right there

 

[sleezybeezy]

Thanks for all the replies everyone. Reverse still engaged so I am hoping those springs are okay. I have bad luck with vehicles that wont go into reverse. The valve body swap is a great idea! I am going to do that and report back.

As to the nasty fluid, yea this is some of the worse I have seen. I initially dropped the pan hoping a fluid flush and filter change would solve the erratic shifting. It will almost always solve my shifting issues. Very happy I dont have to pull another transmission.

 

[Etanox]

For mostly of the cars i have seen with transmission problems. Usually end up letting them rebuild. We had several transmissions seen that had gear shift problems.
Whenever we pulled out the tranny pans and removed the lower "part" where u could see the springs on the body. These springs usually get clogged up. When these canals get clogged the transmission build or cannot build pressure so it wont shift gear. When cleaned and lubricated with some tranny oil they all worked perfectly shifting gears. Just my experience here


Etanox,

 

[sleezybeezy]

I am happy to report that the valve body swap with new fluid and filter has solved all of my problems! Shifts like a dream now!

 

[Etanox]

Glad to hear that !!
Have fun and stay safe !!

Regards,

Etanox

 

[JC220]

I am happy to report that the valve body swap with new fluid and filter has solved all of my problems! Shifts like a dream now!

Great news! Did you see where the springs came from on the old valve body? There must have been a plate or similar loose?

Has the source of the spring carnage been identified?

 

[gerryvz]

Yes, what is the source of the spring carnage in the pan, seeing as there is no physical way the springs could have come from the valve body?

I'm glad you got the problem fixed, without having to remove the transmission.

 

[liviu165]

I hate to bring bad news, but I don't think your spring pieces came from anywhere inside the valve body. I actually think they came from the K1 or K2 clutch assemblies.

Looking at what's left of them in your pan, they look like they went thru the ringer. I really don't see how any of the springs from the valve body would "get out" of their place, "climb" higher where the gears and the clutch disks are so they can get that kind of damage. Additionally, you did not see any valve body pistons or spring retainers in the pan, only spring pieces. No, I don't think they came from the valve body. However, you could examine carefully the original valve body you got out to see if any springs got out.



Springs similar to the ones from the reverse piston (1st picture below) exist in two more places: K1 and K2 clutch assemblies. Based on your description, I suspect the pieces you found are from your K2. Once they sprung out (which means the springs retainer may have been the first to give up) they got caught in other moving parts, sustaining the damage you saw. Some pieces of them fell in the pan, others may be still trapped inside the transmission somewhere.



Yes, you got it going for now, but I suspect your transmission already has some damage which will probably shorten its life. Keep it going like that only the future will tell when its time will come.

 

[gsxr]

Springs similar to the ones from the reverse piston (1st picture below) exist in two more places: K1 and K2 clutch assemblies. Based on your description, I suspect the pieces you found are from your K2. Once they sprung out (which means the springs retainer may have been the first to give up) they got caught in other moving parts, sustaining the damage you saw. Some pieces of them fell in the pan, others may be still trapped inside the transmission somewhere.

Good info! I've never gotten that far into the trans. Question... can the K2 (or K1) springs find their way out of the drums? Or are they "trapped" inside?

From memory, if any of the reverse piston springs somehow broke or got loose, I think those could escape and find their way into the pan. There's less stuff in the way and I don't recall anything that would trap them. But it's been a while since I've messed with this stuff.

I agree, btw, that although the VB swap has made the trans functional again... there may be more serious issues lurking.

 

[liviu165]

Good info! I've never gotten that far into the trans. Question... can the K2 (or K1) springs find their way out of the drums? Or are they "trapped" inside?

From memory, if any of the reverse piston springs somehow broke or got loose, I think those could escape and find their way into the pan. There's less stuff in the way and I don't recall anything that would trap them. But it's been a while since I've messed with this stuff.

I agree, btw, that although the VB swap has made the trans functional again... there may be more serious issues lurking.

I never tried that, but going back to my pictures (722.3 transmission) I think yes, they can escape (in pieces) because the movement of the piston and the disks would chew them up. Here are the pictures before disassembly. I don't think they could escape in one piece. Once they would escape (in pieces), the pieces would be thrown around in the transmission and by the time they end up in the pan even more damage my occur. Some parts from those springs may still be trapped in the clutch assembly and will probably fall at a later time. Depending of what really is inside there, other springs may follow. Is really hard to estimate what's going on inside w/o opening it up, but if it would be me I would replace the transmission now. At least I would limit the damage so it can be rebuilt.

EDIT: My suspicion is that the retainer ring in the second picture which is the K2 (apparently made out of pot metal, the part which says "ATE" "Alu" on it) broke and let some springs out. The springs got in the way of the piston operating, which is probably why at times he was loosing the 4th gear. Eventually some (or maybe all ?) loose springs got broken into pieces and some of them got out.

 

[gerryvz]

the retainer ring in the second picture which is the K2 (apparently made out of pot metal, the part which says "ATE" on it) broke and let some springs out.

I think that says "Alu" not "ATE" (which makes brakes) -- the Alu standing for "aluminum" which is what the part is made out of.

The front of the engine also has this same logo on it.

 

[liviu165]

Thank you @gerryvz , you are definitely correct with your Alu remark: indeed is Alu and not Ate. Very good eye. I replaced a caliper last night on my W126, I guess my mind is still hooked up on that job .

I think that "Alu" is not there to tell us what the part is made of, I think is actually the logo of the company that made the part. Regarding the material: the part is made out of an aluminum powder through a specific process. If we want we could call it "aluminum", although it is stronger than aluminum and it will not bend, is more brittle and under stress it cracks and then breaks (which is what I think happened in this case).