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W124/m104 harmonic balancer
- Thread starter woodman
- Start date
I would rather hold the balancer. The bolt is super tight and holding the flex plate doesn’t appeal to me. All. that torque on a couple of teeth.
I did my Acura timing belt and the bolt had major locktite on it.
They make tools for this for other newer Benz and that seams to me to be the way to go.
Any concern of ring gear damage? Why the change for the later models? I would rather damage the balancer than have a issue with the flex plate. Had anyone had issues with damaged flex plates?
I appreciate the info on the factory procedure that was written 25year + ago.
I appreciate the info on the factory procedure that was written 25year + ago.
Zero concern of ring gear damage for engines designed to use the lock tool on the flex plate / ring gear. There is minimal load at the teeth due to the distance between crank centerline and the teeth. The balancer has a rubber element and is not designed to take those loads. I've never heard of flex plate damage when using the factory tools, ever. Now if someone is using "creative" methods to hold the flex plate, that's a different question... be careful if not using the proper tools.
A beefy impact wrench usually makes removal a breeze, but the bigger hassle is getting the center bolt re-torqued to spec, either 370Nm or 400Nm, depending which type is on your car. Need a large 3/4" torque wrench, and if renting one, hope that it's properly calibrated.
A beefy impact wrench usually makes removal a breeze, but the bigger hassle is getting the center bolt re-torqued to spec, either 370Nm or 400Nm, depending which type is on your car. Need a large 3/4" torque wrench, and if renting one, hope that it's properly calibrated.
Zero issues with locking the flex disc. (Unless a ham fisted type uses a screwdriver or inappropriate method of course anything is possible!)
Personally I use a powerful impact gun where possible to loosen MB crank bolts. Where not possible use a crank lock tool, slide it in place at starter motor etc and use a large bar to break the crank bolt.
Thanks for the info. I would love to use a impact but even with the radiator removed not enough room for my trusty CP 734.
I decided to bite the big one and purchase the tool to use the factory method of locking it.
Anybody had any luck sealing up the lower cover without dropping the pan? This is my first go around at this.
Any help is much appreciated. Thanks in advance...
I am not aware of anyone here who has removed the lower cover on an M104, at least recently. But there is (as your post infers) a lot of danger in damaging the pan gasket. My recommendation is to remove the oil pan so that you don't mess anything up.
There is, as said, ZERO issue with using the factory tool to hold the ring gear. As long as it is inserted correctly and getting a proper "bite" on the ring gear teeth, everything should be just fine. I just did this last year on my M119 when removing the crank bolt/pulley/harmonic balancer so that I could replace the front crank seal, using a quality aftermarket reproduction of the factory tool.
There is, as said, ZERO issue with using the factory tool to hold the ring gear. As long as it is inserted correctly and getting a proper "bite" on the ring gear teeth, everything should be just fine. I just did this last year on my M119 when removing the crank bolt/pulley/harmonic balancer so that I could replace the front crank seal, using a quality aftermarket reproduction of the factory tool.
Thanks for the input. With the engine lifted from the pan with a 2x6 to spread out the stress, to the point that it seams to hit the firewall, there is no way there is clearance enough for the pan to clear the crossmember!! Don’t want to brake anything. Kinda hard to use the lifting lug with the timing cover off.
The gasket is secured to the pan and in one piece. Thinking? of adding a second gasket as they are only .020 thick and using gasket sealer, not gasket maker.
Went fishing for the o ring that was behind the upper cover and found enough pieces to account for a little more than half. Searched with a remote camera and mirrors and cleaned the pan with brake cleaner on swabs on “magic fingers”and the rest is not to be found. The balance must have flushed out when I drained the oil.
The cam chain guides show some wear but not to alarming due to the 185k on them. However, the oil chain guide has deep groves. My plan is to change everything.
Attachments
I would just go ahead and do a new pan gasket. Not expensive, and "while you're in there" and all that.
5K for Mobil 1 should be fine -- I wouldn't go much less than that. I would recommend 3K with dino motor oil, 5K with Group III (semi-synthetic) like Mobil 1, and 5-10K for a full Group IV/V synthetic (I do my RedLine at 5K, but that is mainly due to the fact that I don't drive the car a ton, so I feel that it should be changed every 2-3 years regardless of the mileage). But I know that the @gsxr goes 10K with his RedLine, and that works well for him !
5K for Mobil 1 should be fine -- I wouldn't go much less than that. I would recommend 3K with dino motor oil, 5K with Group III (semi-synthetic) like Mobil 1, and 5-10K for a full Group IV/V synthetic (I do my RedLine at 5K, but that is mainly due to the fact that I don't drive the car a ton, so I feel that it should be changed every 2-3 years regardless of the mileage). But I know that the @gsxr goes 10K with his RedLine, and that works well for him !
On our daily driver which sees the most use, I do go 10k with Red Line, plus oil analysis with TBN. Results show this is about the limit over an 18-30 month period with no oil consumed or added, as the TBN is near the minimum. If adding some oil due to consumption, this can actually extend the interval, as the make-up oil will boost TBN. I don't recommend extended drains without at least a couple of analyses with TBN to verify the interval is safe for that particular engine and OCI.
For our cars which get driven much less, I end up changing at 5k or less, as it may be 3-5 years...
I removed the crank bolt by having a friend just blip the starter while tightly holding the crank bolt with a three foot “cheater bar“ on a 1/2 inch break over bar. Not sure how I will tighten it back, but I’m a long way from that now.
Here's what I did last year with my M119.
Something similar on my m119- I have a huge 3/4 torque wrench reserved for crank bolts
M119 Content!
That lock tool pictured will NOT work in m104.
I have m104 lock tool also but have no photos of them in use.
Please tell me more about the center bolt re-torque. What’s the best practice here? I couldn’t find any information in Gerry’s “How To”.
Assuming you are replacing the front crank seal and need to tighten the 27mm bolt afterwards: This requires using a flywheel lock (or other positive-locking methods on the flywheel), and using a large torque wrench capable of rated spec.
M104 flywheel lock:
M104 torque info:
M104 flywheel lock:
M104 torque info:
I actually found an article where Gerry used a 1.75” diameter pipe over his torque wrench.
The 3/4 drive torque wrenches are not cheap at all
3/4" torque wrenches are crazy expensive to purchase. There are torque multipliers, but those aren't cheap either. I wonder if an extension (from wrench to socket) might work.
You can rent a 3/4" torque wrench, but I'd be nervous unless the rental place confirms that they calibrate them regularly, AND it's not a cheap wrench to start with. I vaguely recall hearing of rental places offering a beat-up Pittsburgh with no calibration data. I'd rather buy a new one that I know hasn't been abused (yet).
The cheater pipe is to make it easier to pull. 400Nm takes a lot of muscle, it's difficult for the non-bodybuilding crowd (like me).
You can rent a 3/4" torque wrench, but I'd be nervous unless the rental place confirms that they calibrate them regularly, AND it's not a cheap wrench to start with. I vaguely recall hearing of rental places offering a beat-up Pittsburgh with no calibration data. I'd rather buy a new one that I know hasn't been abused (yet).
The cheater pipe is to make it easier to pull. 400Nm takes a lot of muscle, it's difficult for the non-bodybuilding crowd (like me).
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FWIW... I'm not crazy about HF tools for accuracy, but they do have one under $100, a fraction of what name-brand units cost (typically $300-$600). 300 lb-ft is a tick over 400Nm and should work for most 80's and 90's MB engines.
Tekton offers one for a few bucks less:
www.harborfreight.com
Tekton offers one for a few bucks less:
3/4 in. Drive 50-300 ft. lb. Click Torque Wrench
Amazing deals on this 3/4In Dr Click Type Torque Wrench at Harbor Freight. Quality tools & low prices.
Amazon.com: TEKTON 3/4 Inch Drive Click Torque Wrench (50-300 ft.-lb.) | 24350: Home Improvement
Amazon.com: TEKTON 3/4 Inch Drive Click Torque Wrench (50-300 ft.-lb.) | 24350: Home Improvement
www.amazon.com
I agree on the lack of calibration data wirh rental torque wrenches, and that’s why I buy my own. I own a Craftsman (1/2” drive) which is many years old but max torque is 250ftlbs, and it’s my old reliable for smaller jobs.3/4" torque wrenches are crazy expensive to purchase. There are torque multipliers, but those aren't cheap either. I wonder if an extension (from wrench to socket) might work.
You can rent a 3/4" torque wrench, but I'd be nervous unless the rental place confirms that they calibrate them regularly, AND it's not a cheap wrench to start with. I vaguely recall hearing of rental places offering a beat-up Pittsburgh with no calibration data. I'd rather buy a new one that I know hasn't been abused (yet).
The cheater pipe is to make it easier to pull. 400Nm takes a lot of muscle, it's difficult for the non-bodybuilding crowd (like me).
Is Tekton a good brand?
I think the Tekton is the one I got at Home Depot.
It's not awesome quality, but it's totally functional, accurate enough, and worked well. Worth the $75.
More importantly, the chicks will totally dig the beefiness of this tool, and watching you use it.
TEKTON 3/4 in. Drive Click Torque Wrench (50-300 ft./lb.) 24350 - The Home Depot
Bring a powerful torque on tough jobs using TEKTON Drive Click Torque Wrench. Ensures good quality and durability for longer life.
www.homedepot.com
It's not awesome quality, but it's totally functional, accurate enough, and worked well. Worth the $75.
More importantly, the chicks will totally dig the beefiness of this tool, and watching you use it.
Nice humor.I think the Tekton is the one I got at Home Depot.
TEKTON 3/4 in. Drive Click Torque Wrench (50-300 ft./lb.) 24350 - The Home Depot
Bring a powerful torque on tough jobs using TEKTON Drive Click Torque Wrench. Ensures good quality and durability for longer life.www.homedepot.com
It's not awesome quality, but it's totally functional, accurate enough, and worked well. Worth the $75.
More importantly, the chicks will totally dig the beefiness of this tool, and watching you use it.
I still have this trepidation concerning my front seal replacement. I have removed the pulley, installed my flywheel locking tool, and now I’m waiting to turn the 27 bolt. My main concern is the woodruff key, and getting the damper back in place without damaging the key. What precautions would you suggest I take?
As far as I remember, the Woodruff Key fits into a groove in the crank snout and fits into a slot in the hub. You just have to roughly mark the hub and the crank snout so that you line them up when re installing, and the Woodruff key should line up just fine in the groove in the hub.
The damper just slides on and off, and there is zero contact with the Woodruff key. You need to use a puller to remove the hub from the crank. The Woodruff key should stay captive in its groove in the crank. I didn’t mess with it and it is back in there so not immediately visually apparent.
Check my photos on thr M119 because the M104 should be fairly similar.
The damper just slides on and off, and there is zero contact with the Woodruff key. You need to use a puller to remove the hub from the crank. The Woodruff key should stay captive in its groove in the crank. I didn’t mess with it and it is back in there so not immediately visually apparent.
Check my photos on thr M119 because the M104 should be fairly similar.
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Dave:
I need some help here. For some reason I can’t find the factory manual on how to remove the balancer after removing the bolt.
Any pointers will help at this stage. I almost damaged by 300E years ago and I’m a bit nervous at removing the bolt.
I have the locking tool, 27mm socket etc but need some guidance.
Thanks
Link to the FSM procedure is below. You need a puller to pull the hub off the crank snout. Don't damage the balancer. If tight, you leave the balancer on the hub and remove both together. Don't pull on the outer edges of the balancer. A generic puller from the local McParts will work, similar to what's shown below, but you will need to remove the radiator for clearance.
Attachments
I will cautiously follow the steps.
Thanks Dave.
Again, the basic procedure is well covered in the M119 Top-End Refresh thread as for pulling the hub and balancer off. Please see this post for info.
The M104 is essentially the same design as the M119 in this regard. I used a cheap McFLAPS bought puller.
After you remove the hub+harmonic balancer combo, you should be able to remove the harmonic balancer from the hub by carefully working it back and forth with your fingers until it comes off. If I remember correctly, it's a press-fit onto the hub. You should NOT use any sort of device or puller on the harmonic balancer itself.
The M104 is essentially the same design as the M119 in this regard. I used a cheap McFLAPS bought puller.
After you remove the hub+harmonic balancer combo, you should be able to remove the harmonic balancer from the hub by carefully working it back and forth with your fingers until it comes off. If I remember correctly, it's a press-fit onto the hub. You should NOT use any sort of device or puller on the harmonic balancer itself.
Absolutely! How about the re-install. Are there any special tools/precautions so as not to dislodge the woodruff key?
I'm dreadfully sorry, but I'm getting a little frustrated. ALL of this information is found and well laid-out verbally and photographically within my Top-End Refresh thread. The procedure for the M119 and the M104 are nearly identical for this hub removal and installation. I am spending my precious morning work-time, repeating what I already posted over a year ago, which is very very apparent in the thread.
Again, if you mark both the hub and the opposite location on the aluminum casting with matching center-punch dots where the hub presses into, then it will line up perfectly and you won't have a problem with the Woodruff Key. It will remain in its slot. I showed this (marking) and (hub insertion) in my M119 Top End Refresh thread. Woodruff Key alignment was a non-issue because I marked everything, and re-installed everything according to the marks I made.
Description of hub re-installation (& woodruff key alignment) is here.
Marked hub + front cover as it came off the car:
![[500Eboard] IMG_9074.jpeg](https://www.500eboard.co/forums/data/attachments/136/136517-dfbe8b11d3fe977cb5ee0a0f3d2431aa.jpg?hash=376LEdP-l3 "[500Eboard] IMG_9074.jpeg")
Marked hub with center punch after removal:
![[500Eboard] IMG_9076.jpeg](https://www.500eboard.co/forums/data/attachments/136/136518-f671317362310fc43715fdbc938505d4.jpg?hash=9nExc2IxD8 "[500Eboard] IMG_9076.jpeg")
Front cover marked with center punch:
![[500Eboard] IMG_9079.jpeg](https://www.500eboard.co/forums/data/attachments/136/136519-1d112971f7c4ed7df8a3f2e3684df3fd.jpg?hash=HREpcffE7X "[500Eboard] IMG_9079.jpeg")
Re-installing the hub by hand:
![[500Eboard] IMG_9547.jpeg](https://www.500eboard.co/forums/data/attachments/136/136521-30b28dfa72741b1c92cfc63e058607b8.jpg?hash=MLKN-nJ0Gx "[500Eboard] IMG_9547.jpeg")
Moving the hub into final position with light taps. NOTICE the center punch marks on the hub and timing cover are ALIGNED.
![[500Eboard] IMG_9549.jpeg](https://www.500eboard.co/forums/data/attachments/136/136522-39d3c256276361771ae26cb312ffb8ff.jpg?hash=OdPCVidjYX "[500Eboard] IMG_9549.jpeg")
![[500Eboard] IMG_9550.jpeg](https://www.500eboard.co/forums/data/attachments/136/136520-3734266d9223275c586fc6bca06e88c7.jpg?hash=NzQmbZIjJ1 "[500Eboard] IMG_9550.jpeg")
Hub installed. Note that there was no Woodruff key issue, because everything was lined up the same orientation in which it was removed. Notice the two marks perfectly aligned in the photo below.
![[500Eboard] IMG_9552.jpeg](https://www.500eboard.co/forums/data/attachments/136/136523-f74bdbe4a6a81cd37bbe85cce31bf714.jpg?hash=90vb5KaoHN "[500Eboard] IMG_9552.jpeg")
Final harmonic balancer installation is located toward the bottom of this post.
Again, if you mark both the hub and the opposite location on the aluminum casting with matching center-punch dots where the hub presses into, then it will line up perfectly and you won't have a problem with the Woodruff Key. It will remain in its slot. I showed this (marking) and (hub insertion) in my M119 Top End Refresh thread. Woodruff Key alignment was a non-issue because I marked everything, and re-installed everything according to the marks I made.
Description of hub re-installation (& woodruff key alignment) is here.
Marked hub + front cover as it came off the car:
Marked hub with center punch after removal:
Front cover marked with center punch:
Re-installing the hub by hand:
Moving the hub into final position with light taps. NOTICE the center punch marks on the hub and timing cover are ALIGNED.
Hub installed. Note that there was no Woodruff key issue, because everything was lined up the same orientation in which it was removed. Notice the two marks perfectly aligned in the photo below.
Final harmonic balancer installation is located toward the bottom of this post.
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I apologize. No more questions!
It's just that EVERYTHING can be found in the post that I've been referencing. You just have to take the time to look through the first six pages or so of the thread. I know it takes time.
It's not the fact that questions are being asked; that's fine. It's just that I'd prefer that questions be asked where the answers have never been posted.
It's laziness to ask questions and request peoples' time, when the answers already exist very clearly on the forum. Particularly when it's time after time after time. It's not a practice that is considerate of other forum members' time.
It's not the fact that questions are being asked; that's fine. It's just that I'd prefer that questions be asked where the answers have never been posted.
It's laziness to ask questions and request peoples' time, when the answers already exist very clearly on the forum. Particularly when it's time after time after time. It's not a practice that is considerate of other forum members' time.
BTW... the balancer may be very tight on the hub, but it shouldn't be. While they may not need to be separated, if you do separate them, clean the surfaces of both with a wire brush and they should be a close slip-fit. The bolt pattern should be such that it will only fit in 1 position.
My harmonic balancer was a tight fit, but definitely a hand-doable slip fit onto the hub.
One other thing, with regard to the Woodruff key: when I inserted the hub into the new seal by hand (pushing it in as I lined up the marks), I could feel the groove in the hub "catch" on the Woodruff key. If the hub is not correctly lined up with the Woodruff key, it won't insert past the end of the hub, because the Woodruff key (not in its proper groove) will prevent the hub from going in any further.
Some slight turning of the hub (maybe a couple or three mm at most), at the initial point of resistance between the Woodruff key and the end of the hub, will slot the key correctly into the groove. Again, you really shouldn't even have to do this if your marks you made upon removal line up correctly.
One other thing, with regard to the Woodruff key: when I inserted the hub into the new seal by hand (pushing it in as I lined up the marks), I could feel the groove in the hub "catch" on the Woodruff key. If the hub is not correctly lined up with the Woodruff key, it won't insert past the end of the hub, because the Woodruff key (not in its proper groove) will prevent the hub from going in any further.
Some slight turning of the hub (maybe a couple or three mm at most), at the initial point of resistance between the Woodruff key and the end of the hub, will slot the key correctly into the groove. Again, you really shouldn't even have to do this if your marks you made upon removal line up correctly.
