Viscous Fan Clutch Replacement

[nic520]

got the new visco (M103) and radiator directly from Mahle today.
Visco is „made in Germany“, radiator is „made in South Africa“.
Radiator was heavily bent out of the undamaged box…

 

[nic520]

This are the 6 cyl visco and a fan from the W210 430 M113

 

[gsxr]

Looks great, @nic520 ! If you have compressed air available, while the radiator is out, blow out the condenser fins from back to front. There's usually a ton of debris hiding in there.

 

[nic520]

Aye, I will. Good idea!

 

[nic520]

So far, it works fine. Changed temp for electric fan stage 1 from 100 degree celsius to 95.

do you know if the missing flaps from the stroud are still available?

 

[nic520]

Visco: Mahle CFC67000P
Fan: 1132000223 (E430, W210)
Visco bolt is from M104, forgot the number

 

[gsxr]

The fan shroud flaps are not sold separately. They are difficult to locate used as well. You could buy a new upper shroud (still available from MB) which will include new flaps.

The purpose of the flaps is to allow more airflow through the radiator+shroud when the fan is not engaged. When the fan IS engaged, the flaps pull closed and allow the fan to pull all airflow through the radiator core. With missing flaps, the fan may pull hot air from the engine compartment through the flap holes, and reduce airflow through the radiator core.

 

[gsxr]

Fresh video & discussion at link below - check it out.

I shot a similar video in summer 2019 but then realized it was of limited value without having engine RPM and engine temp visible, and I finally got around to re-shooting with the HHT-Win live data visible.

FYI - Video of M119 fan clutch engagement / roaring | M119 Engine

I hope the audio comes through reasonably well on the video. The point in making this was to show the difference between engine noise (steady ~3000rpm) and the roar of the fan engaged at the same RPM. Anyway, here's a copy/paste from the video description...

www.500eboard.co

 

[nic520]

My conversion to the Mahle M104 visco does not seem to work.
Even with 100 degree celsius the clutch does not engage. quite disappointing. I am not able to source a Sachs visco either.
I will try a Febi for the M119/124, but do not expect it to work.

 

[gsxr]

Nic, what is the ambient temp when testing, and do you have the AC on? The clutch engages entirely based on air temp at the clutch face, and it's possible to have 100C engine temps with the clutch not engaged, although this would be unusual. in summer with AC on.

 

[nic520]

Hi,
well, its the rest of summer (25 C) and slow traffic, long driving and standing in front of the house with engine and ac on, temp showing around 100 degrees C.
When turning the engine off and imediately trying, the fan can be easily turned, not like with the former MB/sachs.
Nic

 

[gsxr]

I wonder if the silicone fluid has leaked out... the "thin" 6-cyl clutches are in-famous for that problem. If stored incorrectly (face down) the fluid can leak. There's no way to tell how it was oriented when sitting on a warehouse shelf for years. See FSM note below:

 

[nic520]

Yes, and it seems to have leaked. I will need to set up a test-bench…

 

[gsxr]

These can be re-filled, but it's time consuming, and there's no way to know how much silicone juice to add.

Read post #445 earlier in this thread for details (click here).

 

[nic520]

What I did to check the visco:

- demount the visco with fan
- put a bolt into the visco as axis, add washers as needed and a nut to secure the bolt tight (so it will not turn without the visco inner part)
- Put the bolt with visco into a drilling machine
- turn the visco with the drilling machine - it will be "soft" since it is cold
- take of the bi-metal. This equals the high temp for the clutch to "close". Pay attention not to lose the little pin.
- turn again. if there is no difference/stiffer movement of fan, the oil is probably low
- if you have a heat blower and a laser temp gauge, you can reassemble the bi-metal and check the temp when the bi-metal will release the little pin. This should be around 75 degrees Celsius.

The result for my new visco is that it will not engage at all, regardless of the position of the pin.

 

[gsxr]

The result for my new visco is that it will not engage at all, regardless of the position of the pin.

WOW. That sounds like it lost all the fluid. And it was brand new!!!

 

[nic520]

Actually I have now refitted the broken original visco without the bi-metal. The pin seems to be fixed in place, could not pull it out.
Now it „roars“ all the time up to 3500 rpm and cuts out above. That‘s fine for me, as long as cooling and high rpm power are ok…

Don‘t know if my above test procedure is really correct - the speed of the fan is also relevant for the roar. Don t know if the drillingmachine was fast enough.

 

[gsxr]

Do you know the RPM of the drillingmachine?

 

[nic520]

Hi Dave, no, I do not know unfortunately.

I have now ordered a Febi Part which shall correspond to the M119. …122 clutch. It says „BorgWarner“. Any experience with that one eventually?
The €100 for Mahle-Behr are a write-off I think. Getting money back is a hassle with the seller.

 

[TerryA]

Hi Dave, no, I do not know unfortunately.

I have now ordered a Febi Part which shall correspond to the M119. …122 clutch. It says „BorgWarner“. Any experience with that one eventually?
The €100 for Mahle-Behr are a write-off I think. Getting money back is a hassle with the seller.

@nic520, Nic, Can you not get an ACM fan clutch in Germany? They work and are under $100.00 in the US. Jlaa, Glen and I all have one. Mine is new but Jlaa and Glen’s are 3 or more years old.

If available to you quit messing around with all of those other brands.

Just Saying

 

[Jlaa]

I have now ordered a Febi Part which shall correspond to the M119. …122 clutch. It says „BorgWarner“. Any experience with that one eventually?
The €100 for Mahle-Behr are a write-off I think. Getting money back is a hassle with the seller.

@nic520, Nic, Can you not get an ACM fan clutch in Germany? They work and are under $100.00 in the US. Jlaa, Glen and I all have one. Mine is new but Jlaa and Glen’s are 3 or more years old.

If available to you quit messing around with all of those other brands.

@nic520 --- Is your "Borg Warner" fan clutch actually a re-boxed ACM fan clutch? See here: Viscous Fan Clutch Replacement | M119 Engine

And attached. I've had mine for 3.5 years and what I can say is that I never think about it. @kiev has also had the ACM fan clutch for about 2.5 years.

 

[nic520]

Thank you Terry and JIaa,

I would stop trying if I could get a hold of the ACM or Horton/Sachs part. Both are not available for me in Germany.
The Borgwarner part has the same looks as the ACM part and also a china bearing (which is not a stand alone detail, I guess). Also, the bi-metal spring looks exactly like the acm one. Let‘s hope and see…
At least, it is much stiffer then the mahle part and the spring is moving with temp applied. It is mounted, but testdrive is pending.
If someone has a broken sachs visco: I would like to use the bi-metal spring…

to be continued

 

[Jlaa]

I installed the M104 clutch successfully in 500E so I can share some info. The clutch I used is original and German made Behr clutch:

View attachment 91357View attachment 91358View attachment 91359

Fan - due to different bolt pattern (M104 used 3 bolts vs. M119 clutch uses 4 bolts) fan needs to be replaced. I was thinking about fabricating some kind of adapter plate using CNC and keep using the original magnesium fan but gave up on that. My first attempt was fan from 2.1D Sprinter - these are widely available and supercheap in Europe. Part number is 1032000423 but it turned out that it is smaller in diameter, not much, maybe 5mm but I didn't like it. I also didn't like the colour but this is very minor... Next I turned my attention to V8 powered ML truck fan - bingo! Fan part number 11320000223 is a perfect match. I got it almost for free ($15) and in perfect condition - part is widely available here. It has identical diameter, same shape of fins and it's black instead of yellow:

View attachment 91360View attachment 91361

Installation is almost P&P. If your car originally had OE (thick) clutch it is necessary either to shorten the original bolt or purchase the new bolt from the hardware store as new clutch is "skinny" type. In my case bolt was already shortened as PO installed crappy Meyle part - no wonder that the car sounded like taking off Jumbo Jet when accelerating;

View attachment 91362

If you decide to shorten the original bolt you will have to use a spacer (washer) between bolt and the clutch - the non-threaded part of the bolt is just little bit too long for the new clutch. In my case use of 2 washers was enough, they formed 3mm spacer. I found these in Porsche parts stash, perfect fit, no play at all, very tight, just like they would be made for this application See below the original bolt shortened and spacer (washer) next to it - smaller one, the big washer was not used.

View attachment 91363

After installation the new assembly sits 5mm closer to the engine than the original fan. I wanted to use another spacer (2mm thick) to move it away but decided it didn't matter and wasn't necessary. Fit is perfect with regards to fan shroud and other elements in front of the engine. I run the engine twice for some time and it behaves just like a proper clutch I think - car is still on Quick Jack so no road test yet. It's night and day compared to Meyle in terms of sound. Installed:

View attachment 91364View attachment 91365

@darek_u - now that it has been a few years on and you have (hopefully) lowered your car off the QuickJack, do you have any road time with the 113-200-002-23 fan and the M104 clutch assembly? Do you still like it?

 

[darek_u]

Jlaa unfortunately I don't have good news for you:

So long my Hella Behr visco clutch... Made in Germany... Top quality... Reputable brand... After 8 months it is gone. It lost all oil or at least enough to prevent from engaging. Bimetal strip works as expected, it is just the oil that I found all over the clutch and fan. Anyway, I was lucky to buy reboxed BorgWarner clutch (ACM in US?) for around $60, in FEBI box, brand new, sale item. I put it in place and everything works as expected again. A little comparison - M119 BorgWarner clutch is louder than Hella M104, in general M104 Hella clutch and ML plastic fan are quieter and "softer" than OEM combo.

It did maybe 800 km, 1kkm tops and gave up... I have oil to refill it but, frankly speaking, I lost my passion towards rebuilding it as my Borg Warner clutch works well. Maybe one day I'll refill it and put back in a car but not now.

 

[nic520]

The BorgWarner on my car also still works. It is loud on cold start but I ignore it. No cooling issues.
And it disengages at 3.500 - 4.000rpm, which is the most important part.

 

[Jlaa]

Jlaa unfortunately I don't have good news for you:


It did maybe 800 km, 1kkm tops and gave up... I have oil to refill it but, frankly speaking, I lost my passion towards rebuilding it as my Borg Warner clutch works well. Maybe one day I'll refill it and put back in a car but not now.

Thanks for that feedback. It seems as of now, the

• ACM-clutch-without-stamps-and-boxed-in-a-BorgWarner-box
• BorgWarnerShengLong-clutch-with-Febi-stamps-and-boxed-in-a-Borg-Warner-box

look very very very similar and operate similarly as well, meaning:

The BorgWarner on my car also still works. It is loud on cold start but I ignore it. No cooling issues.
And it disengages at 3.500 - 4.000rpm, which is the most important part.

Mine has been on my car since Jan 2017 / 10K miles and continues to operate ... fingers crossed for luck.

 

[nic520]

…while my BorgWarner clutch was in a Febi box - no stamps besides „BorgWarner“ on the clutch.
I bought a „Febi“ clutch. BorgWarner on it was the surprise.

 

[darek_u]

…while my BorgWarner clutch was in a Febi box - no stamps besides „BorgWarner“ on the clutch.
I bought a „Febi“ clutch. BorgWarner on it was the surprise.

This was my case as well

 

[JC220]

Yes Febi are like that. For the most part you can target a part knowing it should be an OEM part inside the box from the experience of others.

However, I have also seen first hand that Febi can suddenly change to a cheaper Febi branded part and then that means it's normally junk IMO.

For example I had bought up a few Febi w124 rad caps a couple years back. Inside was the German made OEM rad cap. Bought the exact Febi part number about a year later and unfortunately they had made the swap and it was cheap Febi garage inside.

So roll the Febi dice and be prepared to return to sender if Garbage is in the box. Hence why when I'm onto a good thing I try to stock up when I can.

 

[Sam SL]

I got this from a friend yesterday who has been in the Euro parts business locally since the 80's, mostly Volvo/BMW/MB. He's pretty much retired now but still has the odd stuff. The box is a blue/yellow Behr/Hella with a Made in China label, probably not the original box?

 

[Seangbadee]

I got this from a friend yesterday who has been in the Euro parts business locally since the 80's, mostly Volvo/BMW/MB. He's pretty much retired now but still has the odd stuff. The box is a blue/yellow Behr/Hella with a Made in China label, probably not the original box?

View attachment 151061

Let’s get a picture of the other side with the strip.

 

[Sam SL]

Let’s get a picture of the other side with the strip

 

[gerryvz]

That is a legit Sachs clutch, pre-Horton (which is what they started branding Sachs clutches under the name of). Doesn't look like any MB numbers/logo on there, so it would be an aftermarket clutch (OEM). Definitely not original box.

Are you sure it is the correct part number for the E500E application?

 

[Seangbadee]

View attachment 151065

This looks like the real deal! It would be nice to see a part #

 

[Sam SL]

Are you sure it is the correct part number for the E500E application?

The Sachs decal on the back side reads 60 2100 013 031. Mfg date 07/04. This is the box it sat in.

 

[gerryvz]

That's a W140 fan clutch box. You should double-check the part number to ensure that clutch you have is appropriate for the .034/.036. The W124 clutches are different than the W140 clutches.

 

[JC220]

I got this from a friend yesterday who has been in the Euro parts business locally since the 80's, mostly Volvo/BMW/MB. He's pretty much retired now but still has the odd stuff. The box is a blue/yellow Behr/Hella with a Made in China label, probably not the original box?

View attachment 151061

Just a note FWIW always store fan clutches on their edge standing up. Laid flat the oil inside can leak out.

 

[Sam SL]

That's a W140 fan clutch box.

Which numbers on the box indicate that it is for a W140?

 

[gerryvz]

Which numbers on the box indicate that it is for a W140?

It says W140 right above the bar code on the box.

 

[gsxr]

View attachment 151065

Although it is a genuine Sachs/Horton, that is a 140/129 clutch... will not fit a W124 chassis. The offset is different.

Just a note FWIW always store fan clutches on their edge standing up. Laid flat the oil inside can leak out.

YES! Storage face-up is ok, but face-down can cause the oil to leak out through the pin that touches the bimetal spring.

 

[Stegel]

I realise fan clutches spend their entire service life standing vertical, but I’m confused by “on edge” - I thought the way to store them was lying flat, face up, and not vertical? I’ve had a Sachs clutch for the M104 lying on its back for two years waiting for me to get the head overhaul finished ( I’ve been distracted!). On a related matter, the fan clutch isn’t cutting in in my 95 SL500; my friendly MB dealer quoted £541 less 10% plus VAT (so £600ish) for a new fan clutch so I’m taking up JC220’s recommendation and getting an NRF from AutoDoc for about 10% of that.

 

[gsxr]

Vertical is how they are mounted on the engine, so vertical (aka "on edge") storage is fine. Flat with face-up is also acceptable.

FSM text below:

 

[JC220]

I'm not sure what lay flat side matters really there is a moving part and seal on both sides is there not(?)

Storing vertical is the only way to 100% avoid the magic smoo leaking out IMO and that's how I store mine.

 

[gsxr]

I'm not sure what lay flat side matters really there is a moving part and seal on both sides is there not(?)

Storing vertical is the only way to 100% avoid the magic smoo leaking out IMO and that's how I store mine.

I believe on the rear side there is no passage from the internal fluid to the outside, so it cannot leak from the rear. The seal on the rear is for the bearing.

On the front, there is a pin which goes through a seal and enters the fluid chamber. Fluid can leak out from the pin area. Note the Sachs OEM clutch (now NLA) had a label indicating the box to be stored with the clutch face upward.

But yes, I agree, the foolproof method is to store vertically!

 

[Stegel]

Thanks both. I’ll check the 124 stash tomorrow - from memory there’s an arrow on the Sachs box.

 

[Joncf]

Yes Febi are like that. For the most part you can target a part knowing it should be an OEM part inside the box from the experience of others.

However, I have also seen first hand that Febi can suddenly change to a cheaper Febi branded part and then that means it's normally junk IMO.

For example I had bought up a few Febi w124 rad caps a couple years back. Inside was the German made OEM rad cap. Bought the exact Febi part number about a year later and unfortunately they had made the swap and it was cheap Febi garage inside.

So roll the Febi dice and be prepared to return to sender if Garbage is in the box. Hence why when I'm onto a good thing I try to stock up when I can.

I’m one of the few on this site who trusts Febi. Whether they manufacture their own parts or not, their quality control seems to be very good. My engine mounts are Febi, “Made in China” and are performing very well. Quality seems at least as good as OE, probably better.

Same with their breather hoses. I purposely have ALL Febi breather hoses, as an experiment just to prove this point. They were more expensive overall than genuine MB, but it had to be done. Their parts are widely used and trusted all over Europe and the Middle East, as I’m sure you know and I’ve personally never heard of premature failures or problems with their products.

Now I’ll admit, I still purchase more genuine MB than anything else, especially engine components.. such as timing chain guides and rails. However; I wouldn’t hesitate to use the Febi equivalent parts if those were no longer available. I will be sure to report any negative experiences if any come about.

 

[Jlaa]

I’m one of the few on this site who trusts Febi. Whether they manufacture their own parts or not, their quality control seems to be very good. My engine mounts are Febi, “Made in China” and are performing very well. Quality seems at least as good as OE, probably better.

Same with their breather hoses. I purposely have ALL Febi breather hoses, as an experiment just to prove this point. They were more expensive overall than genuine MB, but it had to be done. Their parts are widely used and trusted all over Europe and the Middle East, as I’m sure you know and I’ve personally never heard of premature failures or problems with their products.

Now I’ll admit, I still purchase more genuine MB than anything else, especially engine components.. such as timing chain guides and rails. However; I wouldn’t hesitate to use the Febi equivalent parts if those were no longer available. I will be sure to report any negative experiences if any come about.

Thanks for sharing. It's good to have options other than OE.

 

[Sam SL]

That's a W140 fan clutch box. You should double-check the part number to ensure that clutch you have is appropriate for the .034/.036. The W124 clutches are different than the W140 clutches.

Does a 94 S500 also use a different fan clutch?

 

[gerryvz]

Does a 94 S500 also use a different fan clutch?

Yes. The W124 M119 models use a W124-specific fan clutch. It is different from the R129 and W140 M119 fan clutches.

 

[elietristan]

I have a new in box factory clutch, that I have not installed on my car. I intend to soon. I will let folks know how it is better than the unit that I have from a 50K mile 1992 500E that I installed in my car a couple of years back. It was a modest improvement over the original clutch that I had on my E500.

I did install new clutches on my G320 (M104) and 560SEC (M117) over the past few years. The M104 unit was a factory clutch, and the M117 unit was OEM (Behr). Both worked perfectly out of the box, and cured cooling problems, but they are not the same as the M119 units....

Cheers,
Gerry

Hi Gerry,

Is the new factory clutch made by Behr and looks like this?