E500E Electric Fan conversion thread

[Christian_K]

This is a follow-up of a thread in the W126 section we hijacked. Basically its about getting rid of the mechanical fan clutch and replace it with an electrical fan setup.
All infos, Ideas and whatever are welcome here.

So far, Jelmer and me would like to be the first 2 guys that do such a conversion.
We want to use the Flex-A-Lite 410 twin-fan assembly with a variable speed-control that adjusts the fans operating speed between 60 and 100%. Also it let the fan(s) run approx. 30seconds after the engines stopped.

The Problem is, that its probably a few inches to wide and we would need a pretty good sealing at the integrated fan shrouds edges, as the air always will to use the shortest/easiest way.

I also thought about maybe getting a single-fan setup that will fit the E500Es radiator. Flex-A-Lite offers some of them with CFM Rating starting at 3000CFM. They are also cheaper than the twin flat 2500CFM Puller we actually wanted to use. However they have the downside that they are not working with variable speed control and only would function in the "On/Off" way.

I also thought about getting a hayden speed control instead. They are 50% of the Flex-A-Lite Price and can, if i got it right, also have 2 speed-settings.
Problem is i dont know if Flex-A-Lites single fan setups will work with 2 speed settings (I guess not).

 

[jhodg5ck]

We've done it here use dual SPAL fans. Ran it off the factory temp sensor modified to kick @ 85C.

Coupled w/ a Griffen triple pass custom rad kept a RENNtech E60 Rock Solid in traffic/summer heat w/ AC cranked. Factory pusher fans are wired to a hidden switch JIC the spals crap out/temps start to rise.

We also have a 560SEC w/ a 119 and dual spals sitting on a Ron Davis custom rad and shroud...that one runs it's own separate trigger system.

J

 

[gsxr]

Jono, was that a W124 E60 or W210 E60 with the Griffen? I was looking at Griffen's site the other day wondering what they could do for a thicker radiator on the W124. Not much (if any) room to go larger (LxW), but we could go a tiny bit thicker.

BTW, the W210 room has a larger radiator... 26x20 core on the W210, only 24x19 core on the W124... about 10% more area. Wonder who built the custom all-aluminum radiators for RENNtech. (???)

 

[Jelmer]

Jono,

Thanks for chipping in. Can you tell us if you used dual separate fans, or a combi-unit? The only one I could find is http://www.spalusa.com/store/main.aspx?p=itemdetail&item=30102052
As I wrote in the other thread: It's slightly higher, uses 11" compared to 12" fans, is slightly less wide, BUT: it's deeper (11cm v.s. 6.6cm)... Slightly more airflow though. But, I doubt we can get this fitted...

 

[Christian_K]

Jelmer, i would not use the dual Spal fans. I don't like their look, nor their specs. If we wouldn't care for "depth" in size, we could use another Flex-A-Lite twin assembly with "way more CFM" and supporting a variable speed setting (i want that gimmick! xD)
If i will not go with the dual Setup, i will choose a single larger fan by Flexalite with integrated shroud. This will at least fit into the radiator area of our cars. Of course, as written above, the single Flex-A-Lite Fans only work in the "On-Off" way... so i'm still thinking about getting the planned twin 410 assembly way.

I wonder anyway how deep we can go between the radiator and the first pulley on the engine, im going to measure it tomorrow probably.

 

[Jelmer]

I saved you the trouble.

The question is: can the black fan-clutch mount thingie be removed? I.e., the black thing between the fan and the belt? That would save up a lot of space. Now that's the limiting factor: we have 7.5-8cm.

See: https://picasaweb.google.com/104700...authkey=Gv1sRgCMW13qWGhfvS-wE&feat=directlink

 

[jhodg5ck]

Spal makes an Excellent fan that Lasts, which was my main choice over the flex o lites. Chatting @ Length with Ron Davis was the final deciding factory in choosing them...he has more experience in cooling/radiators/fans then All of us combined 100X times over.

I would also add that he was not pushing it as a you need to buy spal because I sell them, I mentioned I had a local dealer who had good pricing/no need to ship and he was all for it.

Anywho, dual Spals fit even w/ a Monster rad in place and they Work!

j

 

[quicksilver500]

Spal also makes a variable control, or did I think they just stopped production of it. I don't know if there is a replacement.

Another thing to consider is having a good shroud to control/enhance airflow, that is a really important detail that gets over looked quite a bit.

http://www.speedwaymotors.com/Garage-Sale-Spal-Pulse-Width-Modulated-Fan-Controller,35700.html

 

[Christian_K]

I saved you the trouble.

The question is: can the black fan-clutch mount thingie be removed? I.e., the black thing between the fan and the belt? That would save up a lot of space. Now that's the limiting factor: we have 7.5-8cm.

See: https://picasaweb.google.com/104700...authkey=Gv1sRgCMW13qWGhfvS-wE&feat=directlink

Thanks alot Jelmer...
Well no we cant remove that pully...unfortunately... Even if we would be able to, its not the deepest part. The round thing where both this pully with the 4 bolts and the viscous clutch with his single bolt is attachig to, is the problem.

So space will be veeery tight. So we really only have the dual flat puller as an option available.

 

[jhodg5ck]

Dave, this was a RENNtech W124 E60(0) The stock renntech rad was a bit sloppy, the tanks were not fabbed to fit the radiator support, the tanks we had made slotted in Very nicely!

both the Ron Davis and Griffen had full shrouds..

Jelmer, why do you think you can't fit it? I fit these to a Larger radiator in a 500E. If you are using a stock rad, you'll have even more room as long as you don't make a shroud that sits PROUD etc..

Jono

 

[Jelmer]

Jelmer, why do you think you can't fit it? I fit these to a Larger radiator in a 500E. If you are using a stock rad, you'll have even more room as long as you don't make a shroud that sits PROUD etc..

Because of the depth of the unit. The units mentioned in the original post are a mere 6.6cm deep, the go all the way to 11cm.

See http://www.spalusa.com/pdf/30102052_SPEC.PDF#view=FitH for the PDF file.

Now you made me doubt myself again. The deepest point is - of course - the fan motor. But that's only a 12cm wide blob, the rest is merely 6.6cm deep which would fit nicely. So it WOULD fit, as long as the fan motors are not exactly at the same spot as the pulleys.

Are you sure that this is the same unit you fitted?

 

[Christian_K]

I doubt it would fit, without reworking the bracket that holds the fan-clutch and pulley.
Anyway, this one is the one i would go with, IF i would use SPAL:
http://www.spalusa.com/store/main.aspx?p=itemdetail&item=30102130
http://www.spalusa.com/pdf/30102130_SPEC.PDF#view=FitH

Probably i'll stick with the dual flex-a-lite. The Spal costs more and doesn't even have a fancontrol integrated.
Also the depth is my concern.

 

[195910]

Did anyone find a single large fan unit? All that was discussed here are twin small fans.

The new MB cars all use a single large fan (650W and 850W), MB might have found this to be more effective than a twin setup.

Any Thoughts on this ?

 

[195910]

Probably i'll stick with the dual flex-a-lite. The Spal costs more and doesn't even have a fancontrol integrated.
Also the depth is my concern.

I think Spal is a better quality system, they have a good reputation. As for dimension ....Try it ! The Spal fan hubs are slightly offset to the visco fan hub, so it should fit.

 

[jhodg5ck]

Because of the depth of the unit. The units mentioned in the original post are a mere 6.6cm deep, the go all the way to 11cm.

See http://www.spalusa.com/pdf/30102052_SPEC.PDF#view=FitH for the PDF file.

Now you made me doubt myself again. The deepest point is - of course - the fan motor. But that's only a 12cm wide blob, the rest is merely 6.6cm deep which would fit nicely. So it WOULD fit, as long as the fan motors are not exactly at the same spot as the pulleys.

Are you sure that this is the same unit you fitted?

No, that's not at all what i fitted..I took two single fans and mounted them in a custom shroud, they need to be staggered to fit in the 500E, but trust me, They Fit!

I don't think any of the dual/stacked units will fit, but I'll admit I didn't pursue that terribly far.

Jono

 

[Christian_K]

Did anyone find a single large fan unit? All that was discussed here are twin small fans.

The new MB cars all use a single large fan (650W and 850W), MB might have found this to be more effective than a twin setup.

Any Thoughts on this ?

Yes, read my opening post. I linked at least one single fan from Flex-A-Lite. The one i linked was rated at 3300CFM, while our planned twin fans "only" pull 2500CFM (which still should be enough).
Problem is again depth in size. We will most likely have to stick with the flat low-pro puller by Flex-A-Lite. 2.625 inches thickness is an argument (6.6centimeters) and this will fit the 500E.

 

[195910]

I think their is space, you just have to manoeuvre the fan in their. if you position offset to the visco fan pulley you should have about 12cm from what I remember.

The spal fan is 16 inch but has no shroud, you can position it as appropriate, maybe design a custom shroud later!

 

[Jelmer]

Christmas arrived early this year!

 

[Christian_K]

check how they fit on the radiator

 

[Jelmer]

I'd love to, but my new one has been fitted last Thursday, and I didn't take the old one with me because it was very dirty (about 10% of the coolant lines were clogged up with gunk, no use for me to take it home)...

 

[bing]

Nice you've taken on this mod, JB ! One thing that I've not seen covered here or in Slownrusty's thread is about dumping the factory Aux fans with this set up?? Meaning does this mod rid off the visco fan and aux fan currently fitted in e500es??

 

[gsxr]

If you remove the viscous fan and replace it with aftermarket electric puller fan(s), I would NOT remove the factory auxiliary electric pusher fans in front of the condenser...

 

[Jelmer]

I will definitely leave the aux fans in. Not only "just in case" but also because they move some much needed air directly through the A/C radiator.

I've unpacked one of the units (again) and couldn't resist turning them on. These are insane. And dangerous. The sound is weak in the video compared to what it really was, and the amount of air these things move is mind-boggling.
[youtube]bH3j2oT6KS4[/youtube]

Sorry about the silly giggle, but it ate my paper

 

[Christian_K]

yeaaah... please test both units before you visit me. Because i most likely will fit my one later since the new engine is still not in place.

 

[Jelmer]

After letting the fans sit for way too long, this weekend Christian and I finally started the conversion. And the result? success .

It's a fantastic system. The 60% setting at which the fans kick in blows MUCH more air than the idle setting of the viscous fan. We checked the battery voltage, and it went down from 14.2 to 14.1, so for now it seems there's no real need for a more heavy alternator.

With the shroud removed, my car takes in so much air that they aren't on at all. It's only when standing still. It was 24.5 degrees outside, and driving 50km/h got the temperature down from 93/94C to 89C. This immediately proves that the viscous fan is NOT needed when driving - normal airflow is more than enough. Unless it 35-40C outside, of course.

On the way home I took it up to 210km/h, thinking to take it "easy" for now. Temperature stayed rock solid at the 85C mark (in the 80C text). Pulling off of the freeway into a parking place, it took only 20-30 seconds for the temperature to rise from 85C to "the 100C mark", and the fans where already on. It feels like the car has slightly more power in the low-medium RPM range - 2500-4000RPM. Flooring it at 180km/h gives a nice, firm, push in the back and I'm at 210kmh in no-time at all.

The sound of the fans is acceptable. You only hear it when you're standing in front of the car. Standing next to it, it's barely noticeable. There's no sound inside the car at all, no shaking, nothing, except for a short growl when they start up. I haven't (thankfully) had them at 100% setting, because the 60% cools a hot engine down fairly quickly already. They currently kick in at about 93C (coolant temperature, not ambient!) and turn off again at ~89C. When turning off the engine, they continue for maybe 10 more seconds, just enough to blow a bit of heat away. (I personally would have liked a slightly longer period, but I think it's not a delay but simply the thermostat getting to the turn-off setting).

'lo and Behold!

[youtube]2FF6SWz4rXU[/youtube]

[youtube]ApUNRQBpD64[/youtube]

 

[Jelmer]

We all know this sight

Pretty, but that little meat chopper is always in the way

Start taking it apart

Bye bye

So much room now! Hmmm. I think I could put a V12 in there?

Yup.

This stuff has to go somewhere

Time for assembly

We had some help.

The radiator is a bit too big and oddly shaped. It's not possible to drill holes at exactly the right places, so we had to chop some material off. The hard plastic brackets are very strong, though.

Meanwhile ...

You need a constant +12v (from behind the CAN box) and a switched +12v, we took it from the fuse box (fuse 7?)

Done!

Time to fit it all together again

And the controller.

All finished

 

[195910]

HAAAA. someone finally did it!!

Test Drive, Test Drive, Test Drive.....City&Autobahn with AC.

 

[redred]

Wow. Well done

 

[Christian_K]

It was simply an amazing weekend... hahahahah.
[video=youtube_share;QJnk2YStIRI]http://youtu.be/QJnk2YStIRI[/video]

 

[Jelmer]

This is this kick-in point

(which also tells me my dash gauge is way off )

I haven't seen it above this point. In gear, with the hood closed, AC on. We tried stop&go, but haven't seen it above this mark.

 

[gsxr]

Schweeet! Please also post the fan brand name / model number / specs (it wasn't clear from the earlier posts?).

And don't forget SPL readings from inside and outside the car (kidding!)....

 

[bing]

nice work guys

 

[Jelmer]

We used these fans:
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/FLX-410/

The Flex-a-lite 410, $369.95 plus S&H.

Maximum Fan CFM 2,500 cfm
Fan Quantity Dual
Fan Diameter (in) 12.000 in.
Height (in) 15.500 in.
Width (in) 26.250 in.
Thickness (in) 2.625 in.
Number of Blades 8 blades
Fan draws 14-22 amps.

 

[Christian_K]

Schweeet! Please also post the fan brand name / model number / specs (it wasn't clear from the earlier posts?).

And don't forget SPL readings from inside and outside the car (kidding!)....

Its the Flex-A-Lite 410 Puller Set with VSC (Variable Speed Control) like in the C126 forums: http://www.500eboard.com/forums/sho...-Electric-Fans-Install-How-To-w-Many-Pictures
We tried it even with the AC on at 25° outside Temperature, the result is no different, temperatures rock-solid because the front auxiliary fans jumped in as soon as we switched on the AC (Probably Pressure related? Or was the Cool Harness still in place Jelmer?)

Really an amazing pair of fans. At full speed (100%) as you can see in my video 3 posts above, the suck-in a tremendous amount of air from the front. I really doubt a Viscous-Stock-Crap System can do any better. But so far, despite trying to get the 500E reeeeaaaaly hot, we havent seen them running at 100% in Jelmers car at all. The silent 60% setting is enough. Though on hot summer days at 35°C with the AC on in a traffic-Jam it might look different and the fans will be maybe roaring at a 100% speed.
And like jelmer told, as soon as you are driving at least 50km/h there are no fans needed and they wont kick-in at all, as the Wind speed is enough to cool a 500E. The whole hour-long test drives i was live-verifying the temps with the MT2500 and they never exceeded 90°C. Was still with 25-26°C Outside temps.

 

[Jelmer]

The Cool Harness has been retired - permanently. I ripped it out when you were fiddling with the wires.

 

[195910]

Gents, your efforts are highly appreciated. you are pioneers in this field.

Now, Few questions:

1 - Noise levels? compared to the Front Aux fans.
2 - Side by Side comparison with Christian's stock car ? Air suction at 900rpm and 2000rpm.

**3 - When are you shipping the car to Q8 for me to test in our heat ??? it 49C today, very nice for testing.

 

[Jelmer]

1. Better than aux fans. It's a lower, less annoying whine. The aux fans can be heard from anywhere (including the interior), these can only be heard when standing directly in front of the car. Even with the hood open you sometimes forget they are on.
2. You mean the full RPM compared to the 60%? That will be hard since I'm 450km away, again. But even so, the first full power test was only to have some fun and see what it's capable of. I hooked it up directly to the +12V behind the can box. The correct way to wire it is as we did with my car - use the fan controller.
3. Is that an invitation?

 

[195910]

1 - So its just like the electric engine fan in newer MB's. The fan is not as noisy as the W124 Aux fans.
2 - Its to test air flow compared to visco clutch, I know its difficult to determine without any equipment... maybe just comparing suction pressure by hand at idle and 2000rpm.
3 - You know you won't be sure that it works until you test the car here.. You might end up doing the installation for dozens of cars!!

 

[Jelmer]

Comparing would be kinda hard: Christian's car isn't running, yet. I have however done so much with that damned visco fan that I can make a pretty good estimate. I would say that the 60% setting is comparable to about 1700-2000 RPM with a fully engaged viscous fan. This might sound like a low number, but remember that these fans kick in earlier and won't let the engine build up much heat inside. These fans are also mounted directly onto the radiator. So where the visco fan sucks SOME air through but mostly jumbles air around inside the engine bay, this system sucks all air directly through the radiator.

I would estimate that at the full setting these fans move about as much air or slightly less as a fully engaged visco at its highest RPM. But it's much more effective with that amount so will cool better.

Yesterday I went from 180-200km/h to a standstill in a few hundred meters to take a quick bio break. When I came back, the fans managed to keep the temperature below 95C at all times. Try that with a visco.

 

[Christian_K]

The correct way to wire it is as we did with my car - use the fan controller.

Hey It is correct wired on my car too, this was the prototyping-session before we went to yours.
Yes the rest just like Jelmer said, the true advantage is that to have same cooling power as the viscous clutch at its max RPM, you can have the car running at idle ;-)

Yesterday I went from 180-200km/h to a standstill in a few hundred meters to take a quick bio break. When I came back, the fans managed to keep the temperature below 95C at all times. Try that with a visco.

Impossible with a visco, as long as you dont have the car revved to 3500RPM and hold it there.

 

[195910]

Are you running the Aux fans aswell, or are they disconnected ?

If they are disconnected, you can get much better air flow by removing them like in the newer MBs...Also frees space in engine compartment.

 

[Jelmer]

The aux fans are still in place, we didn't change anything about that system. They won't kick in due to higher temperatures anymore because I removed the Cool Harness, but only due to AC activation.

The Flex-a-lite 410 controller also has an option to hook up an AC compressor wire, so it kicks in the fans when the AC compressor works. That would mean that you could, in theory, remove the aux fans. You're right it would give an even better airflow, but it would also make me completely dependent on the new fans...

For those who like to be in control, the controller also has a "force on" and "force off" option.

 

[gsxr]

You didn't clarify your previous comment... how loud is the Flex-A-Lite fan at 100% speed, compared to the factory aux fans (on either low or high)? To my ears, the factory fans are very quiet on low speed, but are definitely audible on high speed.

 

[Jelmer]

Oh, I thought you meant the 60% setting, sorry. At full speed I think they're louder than the aux fans at full speed, but it's still a less annoying sound. The aux fans sound high pitched and you can hear they're doing much RPM to move some air, whereas the Flex-a-lite's are moving at a lower RPM (but still moving much more air).

Chance of them actually getting to max speed is very small, though

 

[gsxr]

Chance of them actually getting to max speed is very small, though

Where you live, that may be true. However where I live (and drive), we can get 100-110°F ambient temps in summer. With the AC on max, trust me, the Flexies will be at 100%...!

When are you sending the car to 195910 for further testing?

 

[Jelmer]

That's pretty warm, yeah. Driving to the border of Kuwait is 6000KM for me, maybe next year

I don't think it should be a problem, though, since I still have the aux fans in place. With two in front and two fans behind the radiator there should be one hell of a huge airflow.

I'll record a movie of the fans at 60% tomorrow. I tried today but parked close to a wall that reflects all the sound, makes it sound terrible

 

[Christian_K]

Also, if a viscous can keep a car cool at those mentioned temps (110F ++), those fans can aswell

 

[Jelmer]

This should give a good impression of the sound level
[youtube]NDDnvpdeflA[/youtube]

 

[bing]

Hang on a minute ! Is this mod about not having a loud intrusive fan or is it for better cooling??

I think the pioneer of this mod (on this forum anyway), "slownrusty", could probably chime in and confirm the effectiveness and loudness.

JB, point of activation - is this set in 2 stages/speed, 60% and 100%?? Does it spin at full speed (100%) at higher engine/coolant temp i.e beyond 93c ??

 

[Jelmer]

This mod is about having better cooling and saving money (on the damned viscous fan clutch). If that would however mean ending up with a car that sounds like a jet engine, people are far less likely to do this mod themselves.

The fan speed is regulated by the controller, which will make them spin 5% faster with every 1 to 2 degrees raise in temperature.