Alternator/belt squeal

[samiam44]

" The funnest part is where the metal bracket won't fit between the block and the trans dipstick tube"

I believe (via 034) you can remove the bracket from the harness and put it back on. Dave nailed this as the hard part. If you do NOT route it correctly, it will scrub against the heatshield and wear a hole in it.
Mine was done wrong by the previous mechanic... my fun to correct.


Michael

 

[gsxr]

The 034 cable routing is completely different... I haven't done one of those yet, but it's on the shelf waiting for installation. Not sure if it goes between the dipstick tube & block, IIRC the 034 routes the cable down through the bottom firewall instead of out via clamshell.

 

[gerryvz]

I've done the lower harness several times now, and Ken & Klink nailed it. The funnest part is where the metal bracket won't fit between the block and the trans dipstick tube so you may need to loosen that to make room. Can't wait for the How-dee-do from Honch!

I remember you saying this same thing before I did the HOW-TO on removing the tandem pump. Heh, you probably thought you would hear me swearing here in Houston all the way up there in Boise !!!

 

[Maui]

It's a Mercedes thing. Why make something easy to fix if you can make it ten times a hard as it should be.

 

[mistermiata]

First thing.....Klink, you are in the wrong profession

Second thing.... Yes, yes, yes, agree with all you guys, that lower harness was a bitch. Getting that bracket threaded up between the firewall and rear of the motor/trans dipstick was HeLL. Looking forward to seeing how Gerry makes out with this!

 

[Klink]

First thing.....Klink, you are in the wrong profession

You dont know what it's like, Andy. This day job is just robin' me of my life. It's just like Samantha sang it...

 

[modzona]

Dont know if i did it right or had the right tools when i took my lower harness on the e420. But had to drop the exhaust to get access to some of the stuff. It two years since so it might be my memory thats wrong. But it was a pain to do. So since i had the exhaust down i did the prop-shaft support bearing and rubber mounting. So that might be the reason it was easy to make the choice to take it down. Just can remember the details anymore other than.. Glad i have don it and its over.

 

[ALL500]

The hardest harness I've ever changed was the glowplug harness on my 300td. It wasn't hard at all. Except I did it a couple times, I fried the first one. So, think I can get a handle on this lower wire harness? I can do any job as good as anyone... as long as I know exactly what I'm doing... can't wait to see the step by step! (not giant steps).

 

[ALL500]

That was said in half-jest, though I am quite ambitious. If anyone knows of a hidden master wire harness installer guru in the Toronto area, please recommend.

 

[ALL500]

So the good news is that I do have an updated upper wire harness. .

The bad news is that I have no idea about the vintage of my lower wire harness, exactly where it is, or what it looks like when installed on the car.
I assume it attaches to my alternator and I may have taken photographic evidence of it here?: The part number displayed is: 000 546 5335 and does not turn up any Google results and differs from the lower wire harness number: 124-540-27-30.

I realize from the description on Wiki about the lower harness, that it should be seen around the ATF dipstick and behind the CAN box. But behind the CAN box I only see one harness with multiple branches and it has the tag and numerical designation of the upper wire harness in the first picture. Perhaps the lower wire harness is underneath that black plastic covering behind and beneath the Can box pictured in the background of the first picture?

There is another wire I see crossing underneath the car from the passenger's side to towards the driver's side. It has completely lost it's rubber sheath, though has been adequately covered in a thick layer of grease, oil and dirt. What is this wire and is it possibly part of the lower harness? .

Moving on, back to the alternator area actually, we have this lovely presentation:. It seems like a wire leading to nowhere, it has been cut. The car had been running despite this and I first noticed it after some alternator "repair" from a questionable indy shop over a year ago (before I knew how to change the brushes).

Finally over here, we have this sorry current state of events: [video=vimeo;126016950]https://vimeo.com/126016950[/video]

 

[ALL500]

So I thought maybe I could jiggle the wires on my starter to see if any juice would flow. I've been searching both my car and the internet for two days trying to find the location of the m119 starter. No dice, but as I close my eyes and wave my hand over the underside of the engine, I have a feeling that it is located behind this potential heat-shield?:.

Next, I did see some more wires, in the lower area. A good chance they may be of the infamous harness in question? Either way, they do seem char-broiled quite thoroughly.


Am I hot or cold here... anyone?

 

[Klink]

So I thought maybe I could jiggle the wires on my starter to see if any juice would flow. I've been searching both my car and the internet for two days trying to find the location of the m119 starter. No dice, but as I close my eyes and wave my hand over the underside of the engine, I have a feeling that it is located behind this potential heat-shield?:View attachment 40002.

Next, I did see some more wires, in the lower area. A good chance they may be of the infamous harness in question? Either way, they do seem char-broiled quite thoroughlyView attachment 40003.


Am I hot or cold here... anyone?

I've got to get a message to you! Hold on! One more jiggle and your car could be through. Hold on!

Disconnect the negative battery terminal! Now drop your tools and step away from the vehicle! Slowly! Hands up! Up high, where I can see 'em!

Now, replace your lower engine harness before you do anything else. The next amount of "juice" that you get flowing could just as easily start a Car-B-Q. Got it, Sparky? Good.

 

[samiam44]

Yes the starter is behind the shield. You need to Google on fsm 119mm mercedes.

the cracking harness below the engine is the knock sensor and it is is not the lwrt h as harness. Look from the wheel well toward engine. There should be the oil sensensor. Is the wire ply able or crunchy.

Will note everything looks oily. Maybe sloppy oil changes, but would guess oil level sensor orings.
m

 

[samiam44]

Note it may require dip stick r & r.. now that is a feat!

 

[Klink]

That's his lower harness in the picture, Michael, and it is definitely extra crispy!

 

[ALL500]

Sorry! I won't do it again, promise! Just don't tell gsxr or gerryvz on me please! (I still need that lower wire harness install demo! )

I was smart enough (just barely) to unplug the battery before my exploration, but if there wasn't a whole wack of metal bars between my hands and that starter shield, I'm sure it would not have been pretty. I recall a man with a thick German accent one time laughing as he repeated back my question in regards to fine German automobiles leaking oil. It did ease my concern for a time, but it is pretty messy down there, while everything else remains pristine. That will be for another time.

My harness kabob is well-done, so I'll order another. I'll look out for that how-to, but I have a feeling I'm going to have to shop around for install prices. And a tow

 

[Klink]

Sorry! I won't do it again, promise! Just don't tell gsxr or gerryvz on me please! (I still need that lower wire harness install demo! )

I was smart enough (just barely) to unplug the battery before my exploration, but if there wasn't a whole wack of metal bars between my hands and that starter shield, I'm sure it would not have been pretty. I recall a man with a thick German accent one time laughing as he repeated back my question in regards to fine German automobiles leaking oil. It did ease my concern for a time, but it is pretty messy down there, while everything else remains pristine. That will be for another time.

My harness kabob is well-done, so I'll order another. I'll look out for that how-to, but I have a feeling I'm going to have to shop around for install prices. And a tow

It will be our little secret. Definitely tow it. And get a shop that's done it before. I'm sure some of our Toronto based contributors can help you pick a shop. If your motor mounts, and / or upper harness is / are bad, get them done at the same time. There's some labor overlap involved in those items.

Regarding leaks? If the Germans made the world's condoms, the population would be about 5 times the current level. The English may have invented vehicle fluid leaks, but the Germans perfected the process, and then licensed it to the French and Italians...

 

[ALL500]

Ha ha, well I definitely don't want to improve on perfection then. I'll resist the beeswax, bubblegum and duct tape approach and find a good German Doctor so I can Zoomba Za on my way again. As per my above video, the car is going nowhere at the moment without a tow.

The more shop suggestions the better, if any Torontonians are watching the show. My upper harness is a Delphi, 1999 vintage, it looks ok to me, but then everything on this car looks beautiful to me.

 

[ALL500]

So it finally arrived! Looks so easy to install, how hard can it be...
I actually have not found any shop/mechanic in the Toronto area who knows about the 500e (despite some suggestions).
Should I just throw my hesitation and wallet to the wind and hope for the best? Or is there a way I can tackle this myself?

 

[ALL500]

By the way, I am all set to get started on the install myself, should the intergalactic council not intervene.

 

[Glen]

The difficult part is that there is very little room for your hands to route the wires. It's frustrating more than difficult, plus when you're under the car, debris is constantly falling on you so wear goggles.

 

[ALL500]

Thanks Glen. Joking aside, I will take a good look (and notes/pictures) before attempting. If it's a little too daunting, I'll continue my search for assistance.

 

[gsxr]

Having done this a few times... IMO, the worst part is fishing the metal bracket through the space between the trans dipstick, heater hose, and engine block. You may have to disconnect the heater hose (drain coolant first), and/or unbolt the dipstick, to get enough room. Take pictures of the exact routing of the harness on top of the engine, and where it goes through the firewall, BEFORE you start removing the old one.

 

[mistermiata]

Yup, agree with Dave as always.... You will hate yourself and that POS E500 while trying to pull up that metal bracket of which Dave speaks. You may develop carpal tunnel syndrome and other maladies from contorting your hand to pull it through.

After a few weeks recovering like will be good again and your love for the E will return.....

 

[ALL500]

Sweet! I've got the top part of the harness dis-attached! Half way there!!! ... ...

 

[ALL500]

Bottom part of the harness detached! Oily as heck (I've been told its the PS return line).


Next, in the dead center of this picture, the harness travels up over this metal (insert description) and back towards the starter. You can't really tell from the picture, but the harness looks to be almost sheared in half at this point. Is there a reason for this? Is it even correctly installed? I recall reading a thread that described something about installing the bracket wrong and rubbing etc.


So the starter is located behind that big silver heat shield... this much I know. I can see only two accessible nuts (yes I am aware how that sounded), are there any others to contend with before removing the heat shield? Once that is off, I assume the final harness connection (and bracket) will be available and I can shuck that baby up out of the engine bay like a raw oyster from the shell?

 

[gsxr]

Bottom part of the harness detached! Oily as heck (I've been told its the PS return line).

The PS return line is on the driver side, not passenger side. It is VERY unlikely to be the source of the oil. More likely to be engine oil, from a leak at the cam solenoids, or possibly valve cover. It will be difficult to locate without cleaning off the existing oil+grime so you can trace it back to the source.

Next, in the dead center of this picture, the harness travels up over this metal (insert description) and back towards the starter. You can't really tell from the picture, but the harness looks to be almost sheared in half at this point. Is there a reason for this? Is it even correctly installed? I recall reading a thread that described something about installing the bracket wrong and rubbing etc.

That is a metal bracket to help route the harness. A plastic clip (000-995-80-44) snaps into the hole on the metal bracket. Photo attached showing the area minus the oil. The harness reduces in diameter approximately at this point.

So the starter is located behind that big silver heat shield... this much I know. I can see only two accessible nuts (yes I am aware how that sounded), are there any others to contend with before removing the heat shield? Once that is off, I assume the final harness connection (and bracket) will be available and I can shuck that baby up out of the engine bay like a raw oyster from the shell?

The starter heat shield has 3 nuts/screws attaching it. Two at the rear and one at the front. The problem you will have after this, is getting the harness through the tiny space between the transmission dipstick and the engine block. The metal brackets attached to the harness will not easily fit through that space. You may need to remove the bolt which holds the dipstick tube to the back of the head. You may also need to drain the coolant and remove the heater hose back there, to make more room to work.

 

[ALL500]

Thanks, so the metal piece that I am referring to is the large arching metal taking up most of the picture in left/center. A large piece of the chassis? Just don't know what to call it. I have the harness lifted slightly for this picture, it is in an 'S' shape, but it was resting on the top of this metal piece and over half of the wires have been worn through at this point. It does not seem right that the harness was traveling over that metal at this point, as the contact has clearly done it severe damage.

As for the leak, I'll have to clean it all up soon, I do know that nothing is leaking at the top or passenger side of the engine, nice and clean when changing plugs, I'll look further.

PS. the mentioned plastic clip was in tact, holding the harness in properly before removal.

 

[gsxr]

Ah, now I get it. I'm not sure how the harness is rubbing against anything. From the starter it should go to the plastic clip, and it shouldn't be touching any metal parts in between. I don't see the motor mount heat shield in your photo, but maybe it's just the angle of the picture. Anyway, when routing the new harness, make sure it isn't touching any metal parts.

 

[ALL500]

I was about to tell you that you have some type of UFO or technological life form that has attached it's self under your car, purpose unknown.

The thing in your picture that has BBB written on it... I do not have this under my car. Nor do I have the heat shield on the top of it.

My harness looks like it was mounted correctly until it travels back to the starter, I'm assuming a clip in there is not attached properly, as it is resting on top of that bare metal (sharp) I'll know when I get that shield off...

 

[gsxr]

The "BBB" thingy is a motor mount. It sits inside a pocket in the chassis crossmember, so you'd only see the top part. Could be a lazy mechanic left off the heat shield when the mount was replaced previously?

There is no clip for the wires at the starter, the wire is thick enough that the connection to the starter holds it in place. Might have been in the wrong orientation though, so it was twisted and rubbing against things it ought not.

 

[ALL500]

Ah. I will double check all of the above soon and report back.

 

[ALL500]

Alright, wow. That sucked. But fulfilling too... old lower harness is out and new one is in!

I have taken some pictures and this is not a professional write up, but I hope it can help anyone doing this job (if I even did it right).
I did it all with a ratchet set (large and small ratchet with 6 and 3 inch extender bars), small screwdriver, large pliers, shoelace and 1 or 2 wrenches. Here's what happened and where I'm at now:

1. (Battery unplugged) I detached the connections to the lower wire harness in the engine bay, behind the firewall on the passenger's side. After working them through the opening in the firewall, there is a metal clip that had to be unscrewed before the harness was free on the top side.

2. I unscrewed the nuts attaching the harness to the alternator, the smaller screw is a pain in the arse, but I managed it with a socket, held in place with my finger and turned with a pair of pliers:


3. Moving on to the starter. I removed the three bolts on the starter heat shield. The two on the back I removed with a ratchet and I believe the one on the front I did with a wrench. It was also a pain in the arse. (No pictures of this step).

4. I then removed the large nut and small screw attaching the two wires to the starter. (No pictures, but pretty straight forward).

5. Next, there is a large nut attaching a metal clip on the harness, as well as the dipstick tube. I had a 6 inch extender bar on my ratchet and it was TOO LONG. There was not enough space between the nut and another heat shield to properly line up the ratchet. After searching hardware stores for a slightly shorter one to no avail, I tried again with a very large amount of elbow grease. I managed to jam the ratchet (not recommended) against the (flexible) heat shield and barely made enough room to loosen the nut. This took a lot of strength and upward pressure. To anyone reading this, please have the right size extension (5 inches?).

6. With the clip/dipstick nut off, the harness was now free, or so I thought. I pulled and pulled and tweaked and tweaked and worked the harness from all angles. There was no way in hell it was coming out. I would have been comfortable hanging on to that harness, off the bottom of the car, half way off a cliff, with velociraptors gnashing below. It wasn't coming out. I then decided to loosen the dipstick tube. There is a bolt that I removed with the small ratchet and 3 inch extension. This bolt is located behind the horizontal pipe and in front of the vertical dipstick tube, on top of the transmission pan. You have to feel for it. I unscrewed it very slowly, expecting trans fluid to spray out, but I got the bolt off with not so much as a drip! I gently wiggled the dipstick tube and had a couple inches play, hopefully enough to remove the harness. I then got to work on wriggling and yanking the harness out and noticed some warm red liquid on my arms. OMG it was blood everywhere... and then a severed hand still attached to the forearm fell on my shoulder!!! AAAAAHHHHHHRRGh!!!!
Oh wait no, it was transmission fluid, even worse. I ran a got a pan to catch the fluid and found that the dipstick tube was completely free and then I yanked that harness out so fast.


7. After cleaning up, I installed the connections on the new harness to the alternator and starter. The section where the harness travels from the starter to the alternator has some metal that the old harness was rubbing against. It caused the old harness to wear, almost in half. Here is a picture of that area with the harness removed. The section I am referring to is the pale yellowish metal, second up from the bottom in the picture:


Here is a picture from the alternator side, with the new harness installed. The new harness has a flexible, ridged plastic covering (like a bendy straw) to prevent it from touching the metal. (The old harness did not have this).



8. I then fed a shoelace down beside the dipstick tube in the engine bay (tied to a rail). I attached the shoelace to the harness and pulled the harness up top into the engine bay.



9. I re-attached the dipstick tube and attached the metal harness clip. I think the orientation of this clip is important. With the metal tab facing inwards (towards the front of the car), it makes it so that the harness is not touching anything (heat shields everywhere).



10. I then routed the new harness through the firewall and attached the connections. I went back and made sure all connections were secure and the heat shield re-installed. Done! Here is a picture of the new and old harnesses and the area of wear on the old one:



11. With the battery attached and the car ready to fire up, I turned the key in the ignition aaaannd! Nada. The exact same symptoms. The power works fine, but as soon as the ignition is turned there is a loud pop/click and the car does not fire up (see previously posted video). The exciting news is that I have a new noise. It's a light, high pitched whine. It's coming from the engine bay with the key in, even when the driver's door is shut. Any ideas about the noise? I'm assuming my starter is fried?

 

[ALL500]

So, I took the heat shield off the starter again and had someone attempt fire up the car while I listened. The starter makes no noise, but when the key is turned the click/pop sounds like it's coming from just above the alternator. It sounds sort of like a metallic lever engaging and disengaging, almost like it's coming from the alternator itself. The car still wont start, or even crank.

 

[ALL500]

The high pitched whine is coming from the ETA. It ceases when I manually open the throttle plate by pulling the shift linkage. I'm not sure what this says about the throttle body...

 

[gsxr]

So, I took the heat shield off the starter again and had someone attempt fire up the car while I listened. The starter makes no noise, but when the key is turned the click/pop sounds like it's coming from just above the alternator. It sounds sort of like a metallic lever engaging and disengaging, almost like it's coming from the alternator itself. The car still wont start, or even crank.

BAsed on that description, it sounds like the starter solenoid is engaging, but the starter is not turning. The fix is a rebuilt (Bosch) starter, ~$200.

The high pitched whine is coming from the ETA. It ceases when I manually open the throttle plate by pulling the shift linkage. I'm not sure what this says about the throttle body...

That is normal. The system sees the ETA idle microswitch open but the accelerator pedal switch closed, assumes there is a fault, and goes into limp mode. It also logs an error code or two (but won't trigger the CEL).

 

[ALL500]

Thanks, I got my hands on a new starter. I've read that the two bolts holding the starter on can be removed with a 9mm hex socket. After ordering one, I found out that the 9mm is far too small. It can almost do a full rotation in the head of the bolt. Does anyone know the correct size?

 

[Taxi Driver]

10mm it is, and a very short one, you need a good U-joint and a couple of extensions 1/2" socket. The starterm. bolts really do *sit* so
you need quite a leaverage to loosen them, also be sure to hammer the clean/sharp 10mm hex all the way in or you will risk destroying
the bolt as I almost did last year when I had to smear carborundum/valvecutting paste onto the hex male part to prevent it to slip.

If you fail to get one of thouse out removal of the motor and gearbox unit will be needed. Roger

 

[ALL500]

10mm it was! I couldn't find a nubby one and I had my hacksaw handy just in case. I got the job done with a small 3/8 socket, a 3" extension, one u-joint and the 10mm hex. Some penetrating oil I'm sure helped as well. The top bolt was easy and the bottom one depleted most of my adrenaline reserves.

I must say, at the beginning of this saga (a year ago?) I knew very little about not much at all. I feel very accomplished just doing the starter and harness and it has de-mystified many areas of 500edom (and motor vehicles in general) for me. I have some confidence that jobs and areas of the car that seem beyond my understanding will be manageable with time.

Anyways, I NEED to say a HUGE to all those helping me out here - you know who you are.

Here is the sweet sound of success:

[video=vimeo;139178905]https://vimeo.com/139178905[/video]

Aran.

 

[nocfn]

LOVE IT!

 

[ALL500]

I'm glad I didn't take my first joy ride last night! It started up twice just fine and I went to bed. Woke up this morning and the same symptoms again:

[video=vimeo;139279726]https://vimeo.com/139279726[/video]

 

[Klink]

Wow, sorry to hear that! It sounds like the starter is fully engaging, but can not turn the engine, as if the starter is too weak, or the engine is too hard to turn, or both.

If you have access to the underside and an appropriate 27mm socket, see if you can crank the engine by hand. Also, if you have access to an useful amp meter, preferably an inductive "clamp over the wire" version, see how many amps your starter is drawing when you attempt to crank it via the ignition switch. Only hold the switch in the crank position long enough to get a reading, and no longer. It may be a good idea to monitor the voltage at the battery, and at the large starter cable attachment point behind the control module / "CAN" box at the same time that you are cranking it via the switch. I won't be able to get too deep into this with you, but perhaps this will point you where you need to go. Others will help as well.

What brand of starter is this replacement? Hopefully an original Bosch...

 

[ALL500]

Thanks Klink,

I have neither at the moment, but will definitely need to get an amp meter and that 27mm socket. I'm just stumped as to how it could possibly fire up so well, then nada!

 

[Klink]

I'm just stumped as to how it could possibly fire up so well, then nada!

Oh man! (or is it ohm man?...) That's the kind of thing that cars do 24/7, 365. If you actually work on them for a living, you almost expect this kind of thing...

 

[ALL500]

Lol, can't I just smack the dashboard and get back on the road??

 

[Klink]

Lol, can't I just smack the dashboard and get back on the road??

Well, you've got little to loose by trying, but if it works, will you feel confident enough to drive it more than walking distance from home?
I didn't think so...

 

[ALL500]

It may be redundant to ask without the proper equipment, but is it possible that something is shorting out and frying the starter solenoid?

 

[Klink]

It may be redundant to ask without the proper equipment, but is it possible that something is shorting out and frying the starter solenoid?

Not likely. It sounds like the solenoid is engaging. Take a video of your dome lamp. Really. Get in the car. Shut the door. Put on your seat belt (to minimize the warning display and noise). If your seatbelt warning sounds/flashes, wait until it stops. Turn on your dome lamp via the manual slide switch. Put a video recorder, smart phone, etc. aimed at the dome lamp so as to record its brightness. Turn the key to the run position, but not all the way to crank position. Pause there for several seconds. Then, turn the key to crank and hold it there in the crank position for a couple of seconds while continuing to video your dome lamp. Post that video.

 

[ALL500]

Tried two batteries, one from my daily driver. Haven't tested them but no problems with either.
I attempt to crank the engine at the 10 sec mark and release at the 14 sec mark.


[video=vimeo;139292367]https://vimeo.com/139292367[/video]

 

[gsxr]

It's a long shot, but you MIGHT have a defective rebuilt starter. What brand did you buy, and where did you buy it...?