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400E to 500 Engine Swap

JRZ

Member
Member
Hello Gents
I ve picked up nice E400 with blown engine and cheap 5.0 low miles engine with an idea of building poor's man E500 hot rod clone.. I have been driving and modifying W124s for decades and own several, just not V8s. I have done my search and know that preferred type would be 119.972 from 92-95 SL. Unfortunately I got 1992 SL 119.960 . Picked it up with tranny for $400, so that's what I'm using. The 119.972s are not that easy to find in my neck of the woods. I ve read that it can be done, just much more work. Work I m not afraid off. I am capable hobby mechanic with lift, and machine/fabrication shop.
I am expecting to change the intake, exhaust, engine mounts, belt tensioner, ECM and EZL module. Planning to reuse as many 4.2 components as possible. Also toying with idea of M117 560 crank (have one available locally) for a bit of stroker action. Possibly 722.6 swap with aftermarket controller. What do you guys think?

Please poke holes in my plan. How much more difficult will it be to fit tall deck engine in w124 chassis? Is it worth it to go with aftermarket engine management for extra power? Anybody found room for force induction in 124 chassis? Not big on rear turbos BTW.

Thanks
 
I hate to burst the bubble... but a 119.960 will not work well for this project. The CIS-E mechanical injection is the first roadblock, it's a downgrade for the 400E. And, I don't know if the tall-deck .960 block will fit under the hood. Now, it's somehow possible to fit the .960 in there, since AMG and RENNtech both built some 6.0L engines based on the .960 and fit them into a 124... but I have no idea what was required, and it is most definitely NOT plug + play like the 140 engine would be. The 140 engine can have parts swapped to make it work in the 124. If you can't find a .972 then you would look for a .970 (140 chassis) donor instead. Seriously, I would sell the 1992 500SL and go shopping for a 140 with 5.0L if you can't find a .972 locally. Cut your losses (max $400) and it will save you literally hundreds of hours of labor down the road.

The stroker crank could be fun, but requires custom pistons, machining the rods, and clearancing the block. Don't try this on a .960 unless BlueRidge will help you get the fueling correct. I have no clue how to do that on a CIS-E. If you build a stroker .97x engine, I may be able to create a custom fuel map for the LH module that should work for 5.6L displacement. That is the relatively easy part after all the custom mechanicals. At that point, see if you can find a local shop capable of boring and etching an Alusil block and build a full 6.0L. Pop in a 6.0L LH module and you're done.

722.6 transmission, it's possible, but lots of work and $$$. I lusted after this for years but eventually decided the only benefits were lower RPM on the freeway, and higher top speeds. Gear appropriately and live with the higher RPM's, we can't visit vMax here in the colonies anyway, and there's not much difference in MPG. The ROI was lousy for this upgrade IMO, and you are stuck tuning an aftermarket TCU as well.

Forced induction, more $$$$. You've seen the engine bay. Very limited space. Look at the Albrex-style superchargers with belt drive off the crank. Another problem is keeping the engine cool with skinny electric fans that can't move enough air. And, you may only get ~30% power gain... ROI gets questionable again. RENNtech recently did a high-dollar twin-turbo build on an R129 with 6.0L and only got 30% gain over normally aspirated, which makes me wonder what the limiting factors are. SG in Germany is threatening to produce an M113-Kompressor style blower for the M119 but the estimated cost is like €25k in parts, IIRC? That would be the right way to do it, but oooof... that pricetag.

:spend:
 
Thanks Dave

Wasn't there a guy in Ghana who converted CIS engine to LH? I was hoping to go that route, reusing intake and harness from the 4.2 and pick up the ECM from evilbay. Alternatively, I could use the CIS, quite familiar with it, also with its shortcomings. One good thing about CIS its a self adjusting system more airflow = more fuel (stroker, could also be adapted for FI). Good to know you can tune the LH ECM.

Boring and alusil the block is probably out .Don't think I have anybody within reasonable distance who could do it. Was thinking about custom rods and original pistons. Not the best compo as far as rod ratio, but tall deck should keep it still reasonable. I can turn 117 crank myself to make it fit 119 block.

I like 722.6 way better then 722.3. You can customize the shifts to your engine, or/and get manual shifts , better acceleration , top speed, and fuel economy. Tuning OLF controller is pretty easy. Done one on 500hp om606 and love it. There is cost to it, but well worth it in my book, if car was a keeper. May run it with 722.3 initially and see how I like the v8 over turboed I6 :).

FI, yes space under the hood is at the premium. Probably blower in the v, a la M113K would be the best option. Anybody adopted that blower to 119? Not sure what kept RENNtechs turbo power down, but we know that engine is capable of serious turbo power . Sauber was pushing over 800HP out of 5.0 119 and it lasted 24hrs of La Mans.

Cooling would be addressed with thicker rad , cooler Tstat, high flow electric fan, and oversize full flow oil cooler. I have a blown E46 M3 track car pushing over 600hp (almost double the stock power) and that strategy works well.

Are performance cams available for 119? What's the max rpm of 119 with the usual valve train upgrades (stronger springs, Ti keepers, may be solid lifters conversion)?

I will keep my eyes out for .97X donor for a while yet, until some other projects are out of the shop, but hope to use what I have.
 
I have noticed, the 117 5.6 and 119 5.0 tall deck have the same bore and rod length. Possibly using 117 pistons with machined pockets for 4 valve heads with shorter rods from 4.2 would do the trick? Anybody tried that combo?
 
Wasnt there a guy in Ghana who converted CIS engine to LH? I was hoping to go that route, reusing intake and harness from the 4.2 and pick up the ECM from evilbay. Alternatively, I could use the CIS, quite familiar with it, also with its shortcomings. One good thing about CIS its a self adjusting system more airflow = more fuel (stroker, could also be adapted for FI). Good to know you can tune the LH ECM.
I think you could do this, but as I said, this is a serious masochist project. You will be way, way ahead selling the .960 engine and buying a .97x engine. I forgot about the Ghana Guy (link), but remember, he did that because he literally could not get a .97x where he lived in Africa. You can get one, it will just cost more up front, but save you huuuuuge amounts of time and money later on. Also, he did not convert to LH, he kept it CIS. Note Ghana Guy's post #9, where he said: "Hindsight is 20-20, and now I profoundly regret using a 119.960..." Just because you can do it, doesn't mean you should.



Boring and alusil the block is probably out .Dont think I have anybody within reasonable distance who could do it. Was thinking about custom rods and original pistons. Not the best compo as far as rod ratio, but tall deck should keep it still reasonable. I can turn 117 crank myself to make it fit 119 block. ... I have noticed, the 117 5.6 and 119 5.0 tall deck have the same bore and rod length. Possibly using 117 pistons with machined pockets for 4 valve heads with shorter rods from 4.2 would do the trick? Anybody tried that combo?
I've never researched this, so I'm not sure what will work. Machining 117 pistons sounds like a waste of time and money, with high levels of risk. If you are going far enough to install a stroker crank, shell out for new custom pistons. You can design those to work with stock length rods.



I like 722.6 way better then 722.3. You can customize the shifts to your engine, or/and get manual shifts , better acceleration , top speed, and fuel economy. Tuning OLF controller is pretty easy. Done one on 500hp om606 and love it. There is cost to it, but well worth it in my book, if car was a keeper. May run it with 722.3 initially and see how I like the v8 over turboed I6 :).
Totally agree, the 722.6 is a massive improvement over the 722.3 in many ways. But it's a lot of work and $$$. As I said before, the ROI is questionable vs the benefts. Tiny improvement in acceleration, top speed we can't use anywhere in North America, and like 1mpg better economy. Don't get me wrong, I love this concept and wish I had it in my cars, but the LOE required.... oooof.



FI, yes space under the hood is at the premium. Probably blower in the v, a la M113K would be the best option. Anybody adopted that blower to 119?
I've never seen this done. I assume there are some size / packaging issues with the M113K blower fitting on the M119. If possible, this would totally be the way to go. High cost, tons of labor, insane amounts of custom fabrication of everything, but the potential end result could be amazing.



Not sure what kept RENNtechs turbo power down, but we know that engine is capable of serious turbo power . Sauber was pushing over 800HP out of 5.0 119 and it lasted 24hrs of La Mans.
Sauber's build was kind of an apples & oranges thing. About the only thing on that build which is the same on the production engine was the block, maybe? It did prove the engine was capable of surviving those power levels, but making those power levels in the first place is a different story.


Cooling would be addressed with thicker rad , cooler Tstat, high flow electric fan, and oversize full flow oil cooler. I have a blown E46 M3 track car pushing over 600hp (almost double the stock power) and that strategy works well.
This mention of a "high flow electric fan" sounds very easy to type. In reality it's very difficult to pull off due to limited space with a stock radiator, let alone a thicker one. Almost all aftermarket electric fans that fit, are unable to move enough air for this application. The best solution I've seen so far is using a mid-2000's OE MB variable speed fan, with an aftermarket controller. Someone posted about this recently on the forum. Not cheap, but it just might work. I want to try this setup on one of my cars and see how it works. Need to locate the donor fan from a junkyard first.


Are performance cams available for 119?
I've only seen regrinds available from Dbilas and Hagmann. Nobody, that I know of to date, has posted before & after dyno graphs for these on any M119. Claimed gains are surprisingly modest. I always wanted to try a set on a 5.0L engine but the cost of sending 4 cams to Germany and back was prohibitive. And, there was some concern about the increased lift causing problems with stock springs, ditto for reduced base circle. I'd like to get more info on this but it was a several thousand dollar gamble that I couldn't bring myself to roll the dice on.


Whats the max rpm of 119 with the usual valve train upgrades (stronger springs, Ti keepers, may be solid lifters conversion)?
I don't know. Stock M119 is fine to 6650rpm but I don't know the limits beyond that, or what RPM the LH-SFI (or CIS) is limited to. Based on my past research, there seemed to be better ROI in professionally porting the intake side of the heads, rather than spinning to 7000+rpm. High RPM makes more sense for a race engine that lives on the track spinning up there all the time. Total waste on a street engine. Solid lifters may not be worth the hassle either. This is pretty esoteric stuff that even RENNtech almost never used. I heard of one M119 6.0L build of theirs with solids. Maybe two.


I will keep my eyes out for .97X donor for a while yet, until some other projects are out of the shop, but hope to use what I have.
Sounds good. Keep us posted!

:alky:
 
Thanks Dave

The problem with custom pistons is that to take advantage of alusil bores, pistons should be steel/iron coated. Not sure if anybody does that. The 117 pistons already have 4 valve pockets, they would only need to be tweaked to match 4 valve heads. Something I can easily do on my mill with zero cost, but my time. It's my therapeutic hobby and I consider my time to be free. They are also already dished for boost :-).

The tall deck block is also stronger and has better geometry for a stroker crank. Closed deck provides better HG sealing surface, even possibility of using fire rings for real boost. And I already have it.

I could only find anecdotal info on Sauber engine being mostly stock . Possibly BS, but both m117 and 119 internals look seriously overbuilt.

To make power you need to move volume of air/fuel via rpm and/or boost, preferably both. M119, even with stroker crank has rpm friendly geometry. Better then beemer's S54 I spin to 8000 under boost . NA high rpm need porting and cams, but under boost stockers may be good enough. Less overlap is sometimes better , depending on boost/EMP ratio.
The hydraulic lifters usually start pumping up around 7000 rpm. The solid lifters should be easy conversion, possibly something from MB parts bin would do. That is the case with M104. Stronger valve springs should allow 8000rpm under boost?? 14psi @ 8000rpm should yield 700+hp with aftermarket ecm and tune.
What is the proven limit of boosted M119?
 
FYI, the short-deck blocks are closed-deck through about Dec-1993 production (mid-1994 USA/Canada model year). To confirm, check the casting number on the driver side of the block. There's a chart in the FSM showing which are open vs closed decks. Custom piston mfr's can produce a piston that works with Alusil.

The Sauber magic was largely the top end and ancillary items (turbos, engine management, unobtanium components). The block & heads were good enough from the factory to support the peak power levels, which is great, but replicating everything else isn't easy. Otherwise, everyone would be doing it. Not to mention, you've seen how long the Sauber tubular manifolds are - right? And the short intake runners? And the dry sump oil system? Custom front timing cover? Dual injectors? Custom oil sump? Custom aluminum rods? Etc. Almost nothing on that 900hp engine resembles what's in your car now.

I'm not disputing the potential to make more peak power with RPM, but again, is this a race engine or a street engine? I'm far more interested in midrange torque than peak power, for a street car. And the more you push the power curve upward, the bottom end tends to suffer. If you want peak power, toss the heavy long-runner intake and build short-runner ITB's like a couple other people have done (and, Sauber). Great for top end, but the bottom and midrange will be worse than stock. Even with forced induction, power will be soggy until boost builds. Fine for a track car that never gets below 4000rpm, awful on a street car that spends 1% of it's time above 4000rpm.

No idea about the M119 limits, but every boosted build I've seen data on has been around 30% gain over stock, and perhaps 50% max. That's with reduced compression as well, although some people claim you can boost an 11:1+ engine, as Weistec did with the M156/M159. Gotta be a reason all those M119 builds weren't making 60-80% more power than stock with 15-25psi of boost. I doubt it was just lack of ECU/EFI capabilities, or RENNtech's recent build would have been well over the 30% mark, and it wasn't. I'd like to know why.


Sauber refresher photos, note there were several different iterations with different ignition / fuel systems:

1679679566024.jpeg 1679679814044.jpeg 1679679849100.jpeg 1679679923010.jpeg
 
Thanks for the pics. There are some nice guts in that Sauber engine. Long tube headers on turbo motor are more for packaging then anything. The tuned exhaust on turbo motors doesnt do much, if anything. A couple psi of extra boost would do more. The KKK turbos however are museum pieces by today's standard. Turbo tech and engine management/ tuning is what allows bar of boost over 11.5 CR on pump gas in modern engines.

I ve found 1996 500SL parts car. How much easier would it be to use 119.98X motor. Bonus 722.6 tanny...
 
I ve found 1996 500SL parts car. How much easier would it be to use 119.98X motor. Bonus 722.6 tanny...
This would be TONS easier. All the bottom end is a bolt-in (same oil pan, same exhaust manifolds). You'd need to swap over the 4 camshaft sprockets, and all the stuff on top of the heads: front covers, distributors, valve covers, ETA/MAF, and intake manifolds; from the 400E engine. 99% plug & play with swapping around bolt-on parts. Other people have done this conversion, but with an E50 AMG .98x engine into a 500E. Same concept. There's an old thread with photos and details.

One question mark is the intake, the 5.0L upper intake is different (larger runners?) vs 4.2L. You possibly could use the 1996 intake if you drilled / tapped holes for the temp sensors. Can't recall what the EGR setup is on the .98x offhand.

Minor differences for .98x... this will be an open-deck block (not ideal for forced induction), and 11:1 compression ratio (bonus for normally aspirated). Also, the .98x engines received smaller intake valves vs the .97x per the FSM, but it didn't reduce power output.

:seesaw:
 
I ve found a 91 560SEC in need of my 119.960 engine. That is supposed to be much easier swap and I always liked the large coupe... Hmm, another project. Looking for 119.97X for my 400E chassis. Thanks everybody for the info.
 
I ve found a 91 560SEC in need of my 119.960 engine. That is supposed to be much easier swap and I always liked the large coupe... Hmm, another project. Looking for 119.97X for my 400E chassis. Thanks everybody for the info.
Correct! Installing a 119.960 into the 560SEC should be much more straightforward. And that would be a nice upgrade... even moreso if you could build a stroker M119 for the C126.

:v8:
 
I ve found a 91 560SEC in need of my 119.960 engine. That is supposed to be much easier swap and I always liked the large coupe... Hmm, another project. Looking for 119.97X for my 400E chassis. Thanks everybody for the info.

Correct! Installing a 119.960 into the 560SEC should be much more straightforward. And that would be a nice upgrade... even moreso if you could build a stroker M119 for the C126.
It's still not a particularly easy swap, putting an M119 into a C126 chassis. There is much engine bay inner firewall work (i.e. a completely new firewall needs to be fabricated) that has to be done, among many other smaller tasks, such as rerouting and fabricating cables, placing the ECUs, checking clearances for the steering box and system, and so forth.

It's definitely not just a "weekend job" to put the 119.960 into a 126 chassis.

All that said, it's easier than a lot of swaps that have been proposed on this forum over the years.
 
I agree with everything GSXR has said. The 722.6 will be more money. There are more and more companies making adapters for these- Elbe Engineering may be one of them. You will need the TCM from Ofgear- about 900.00,

Converting the .960 will be more expensive than buying a .970.

BUT I WHOLLY DISAGREE with the word "step back" when discussing the KE-5 vs. the LH. But I do understand what is meant here. I just think the .960 is a vastly underrated engine. The 1985 C126 AMG with first gen intake and CIS made 340hp with 9.8:1CR. The .960 has a little bump in CR and a much better flowing intake/ throttle body yet is rated at 322hp.

I get it! It would be cool. But there is really nothing to be gained by converting the .960, is there?

Gerry hits it on the head with fabrication. KRH/ Kim down in Aussie land knows all about this! I've only heard about it. It can be done but it is all the work listed- I am not saying don't do it! Do it! If you decided to go the .970 route let me know.
 
Correct! Installing a 119.960 into the 560SEC should be much more straightforward. And that would be a nice upgrade... even moreso if you could build a stroker M119 for the C126.

:v8:
Don't talk like that! It gets me excited! A 5.6 M119!!!
 
It's still not a particularly easy swap, putting an M119 into a C126 chassis. There is much engine bay inner firewall work (i.e. a completely new firewall needs to be fabricated) that has to be done, among many other smaller tasks, such as rerouting and fabricating cables, placing the ECUs, checking clearances for the steering box and system, and so forth.

It's definitely not just a "weekend job" to put the 119.960 into a 126 chassis.

All that said, it's easier than a lot of swaps that have been proposed on this forum over the years.
I was under the impression that the m119 960 would drop into a W126 chassis without any firewall or fender modification? Isn't the block basically the same as m117, just has wider dual overhead cams?

I've researched this online before but never could find many examples of this swap being done. Would love to know more. I'd love to find a 380sec and drop an m119 in.
 
No. The M119 has much larger / wider cylinder heads and valve covers than the SOHC M117, and this necessitates a thorough re-engineering of the inner engine bay firewall. This was detailed by Satish Tummala probably about 20 years ago when he did this same exact swap. He had to re-fabricate an entire firewall setup.

The block is essentially the same dimensions, but that is located down in the chassis between the front frame rails, so it is not affected by the difference.

The web pages where he detailed this are long offline, but I saved them as a PDF and posted them somewhere, either on here or on the 126board.

:update:
It's posted here and the PDF is attached.

 

Attachments

Based on the amount of fabrication you are willing to get involved in why not consider the M113K engine and Transmission. There are shops that can break through the electronics barrier and the M113 engine is also very reliable and more compact. If you want more power than the chassis can handle there you go. Or consider the M113 engine from a AMG vehicle with 5.5l of displacement without the blower.
 

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