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500E custom exhaust...

valvfloat

E500E Enthusiast
Member
we started the system just pre-cat...using a 2/1 magnaflow cat, identical to one 2phast (rik j) used on his 500e...then snaked back to a dynomax super turbo muffler...

few pics from yesterday...

pre-cat the pipes are quite squared...
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took a few attempts to line up the cat inlets...
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rolling along now...
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muffler placement and tip...
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quick video on test drive...a little on the loud side....we'll see if it mellows out...if not, it'll be easy enough to throw in a bullet resonator....

[youtube]4DUX2mP38s0[/youtube]
 
Nice!
I suspect that's not really too loud.

Sound was resonating off the walls of the Blitzkrieg back alley.

I'd like to hear that in person.
Thanks for sharing.
 
Hi, nice to see and hear good work BUT I think doing the two into one should take place right from where the two downpipes join and go say 3 inch pipe to one suitable catalyst ( sports type) I have seen one convertion of that kind once and to great effect too. Also I would rather see two outlet pipes of the Brabus old type pointed to the left corner, a power * trademark *
from late '80to early '90 or maybe genuine sqare tip AMG's.
Anyway good work and sound. Roger
 
I'm gonna throw in a 5" magnaflow resonator....too much noise and drone at part throttle loads under 2K rpm...
 
I would be interested to hear how the high-flow cat sounds with resonator and muffler vs stock exhaust, original cats, resonator and muffler?
 
valvfloat said:
I'm gonna throw in a 5" magnaflow resonator....too much noise and drone at part throttle loads under 2K rpm...

Valv: Thanks for bringing your car by. I think the resonator is an improvement - no droning, but still a deep growl under acceleration :)

I think I'm going to run my car by there. Bob can fix me up with a Y-pipe after taking out the stock resonator, and we'll go from there.

Here are a few of shots from a very small 500E GTG...

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No worries...

I'm pleased with the improvement with the additional muffler, which is a substantial piece: a rather large 5"x11" magnaflow oval squeezed in at the resonator position...

If I had to do it over again I don't know if I'd tear out the stock cats...they obviously provide substantial attenuation...even with two mufflers my car still remains somewhat droney at low rpm, partial load situations...trade off for unleashing that killer 4 cam v8 symphony...!
 
I'm loving the "AMG love" and the enhanced exhaust note. I've been thinking about doing something here as well, to try to bring the sound on the 500E closer to that of the S55. The stock 500E is just too muted for me, while the S55 is spot on perfect. Who makes the best package solution? Magnaflow? Remus? What are your thoughts?
 
Valv' is unlikely to respond, as he has sold his 500E and replaced it with different type of vehicle.

If I can speak for him, when I saw him recently, he mentioned that, in hindsight, he felt the redone exhaust was perhaps a little louder than he liked.

There should be several threads on here about exhausts. Many owners have modded theirs.

The Magnaflow is popular - just ask 2phast about his.
 
There is really little to additional performance to be had by putting a new "performance" exhaust on the car -- the stock system is pretty good, although perhaps a bit quiet for peoples' liking. The only real way I see to help things out would be to do a high-flow cat system, with a crossover pipe (X or H) with perhaps slightly larger diameter tubing and high-flow cans. Even with all that I'd think one would be hard-pressed to extract 5 or a max of 10 HP, depending how well the system was designed and tested. And I'm talking a SERIOUS investment into parts and labor to do this. One may as well just install a NOS system and get 100HP from traffic lights, as that is the ballpark of money one would be talking about. 5-10HP vs. 100HP? No-brainer.

My two cents.

Cheers,
Gerry
 
There is really little to additional performance to be had by putting a new "performance" exhaust on the car -- the stock system is pretty good, although perhaps a bit quiet for peoples' liking. The only real way I see to help things out would be to do a high-flow cat system, with a crossover pipe (X or H) with perhaps slightly larger diameter tubing and high-flow cans. Even with all that I'd think one would be hard-pressed to extract 5 or a max of 10 HP, depending how well the system was designed and tested. And I'm talking a SERIOUS investment into parts and labor to do this. One may as well just install a NOS system and get 100HP from traffic lights, as that is the ballpark of money one would be talking about. 5-10HP vs. 100HP? No-brainer.

My two cents.

Cheers,
Gerry

I concur, there is zero to gain performance wise from the exhaust. Although the sound is incredible if done right! Well worth the time/money spent just to hear the V8 rumble ;-)
 
I to am tired of the drone inside of my car. I have a Ren Tech back box with a Time Valve Y-Pipe collector.

It sounds great outside of the car but at low RPM under load it droans pitifully inside the car.

I am re-installing a Magnaflow resonator in place of the Y-Pipe. I had a SS exhaust builder re-do the muffler shop "chop job" on the Magnaflow muffler installation. It now will bolt up in the exact location of the stock resonator. When it was on the car before it was about half as loud but looked like crap.

After install will post photos.

Take Care
 
Shortly after I purchased my car back in the late summer of 2003, I had a cat-back system installed consisting of slightly larger diameter tubing running through a Walker DynoMax resonator and a larger Walker DynoMax rear muffler, emptying out into a single, oval tailpipe with chrome tip. It is about 20% louder than the stock system -- you can definitely hear the V-8 burble at idle, a low rumble when pulling away (i.e. you know something is very powerful with the car) and it has just a slight drone in the car. It's never been enough to annoy me and no one I've ever ridden with has complained about it; particularly my very noise-sensitive wife who loves driving the car!

I never noticed any real power gains from the setup, but I have always appreciated and enjoyed the burble/rumble. It's not obnoxious but you definitely know it's there.

Cheers,
Gerry
 
Interesting, I have no drone in my car. When driving normally, you don't even hear the exhaust (inside the car) unless you put your foot into the gas, but even then no drone. I never knew how loud my car actually was till I put it on the dyno. It was funny to watch the on-lookers dive for ear plugs when I hit redline!
 
So which would you guys rather choose? Remus, Eisenmann, or a universal (ie.: magnaflow, flowmaster).
 
Interesting, I have no drone in my car. When driving normally, you don't even hear the exhaust (inside the car) unless you put your foot into the gas, but even then no drone. I never knew how loud my car actually was till I put it on the dyno. It was funny to watch the on-lookers dive for ear plugs when I hit redline!
Just a comment based on the difference Rik has experienced, probably explaining the different sounds people get. Steel materials vibrates differently depending on steel type, i.e. stainless versus carbon steel. Additionally does a slight variation in the diameter and wall thickness count a lot on the resonance. Just compare it to gitar strings or brass instruments. An increase from 1.0mm to 1.5mm wall thickness on an exhaust pipe is 50% increase on the stiffness of the wall. Even how it is supported to the car does count on the sound picture.

-arnt-
 
[Rik,

Mine has no drone from about 55 to 85 but from 35 to 55 if you are in traffic it is very irritating. I even went as far as to put a sheet of drywall sound board in my trunk with 1 inch of theater sound insulation under it. I also stuffed insulation around the gas tank all to no avail.

I had a friend drive it away with his foot to the floor and it sounds great on the outside. Just to much inside. Gerry mentioned his wife is noise sensitive. My wife won't set foot in my car unless she has no other option. "This is not a bad thing"

Take Care

QUOTE=2phast;17415]Interesting, I have no drone in my car. When driving normally, you don't even hear the exhaust (inside the car) unless you put your foot into the gas, but even then no drone. I never knew how loud my car actually was till I put it on the dyno. It was funny to watch the on-lookers dive for ear plugs when I hit redline![/QUOTE]
 
The factory cats reduce the noise substantially... so aftermarket systems with smaller "race" cats may need more sound reduction out back (i.e., adding a resonator along with the muffler). So if you are doing a factory-cat-back system, your results may be different than if you do an engine-back system with smaller cats. Just something to keep in mind. FYI, the Remus muffler is abouheavier than the stock muffler...

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Shortly after I purchased my car back in the late summer of 2003, I had a cat-back system installed consisting of slightly larger diameter tubing running through a Walker DynoMax resonator and a larger Walker DynoMax rear muffler, emptying out into a single, oval tailpipe with chrome tip. It is about 20% louder than the stock system -- you can definitely hear the V-8 burble at idle, a low rumble when pulling away (i.e. you know something is very powerful with the car) and it has just a slight drone in the car. It's never been enough to annoy me and no one I've ever ridden with has complained about it; particularly my very noise-sensitive wife who loves driving the car!

I never noticed any real power gains from the setup, but I have always appreciated and enjoyed the burble/rumble. It's not obnoxious but you definitely know it's there.

Cheers,
Gerry

So this is basically what I'm thinking about. I'm well past thinking that an exhaust provides noticeable power gains on cars that are this finely tuned from the factory. I mean, that thought just kind of defies my logic. And, I like this car in part because it's not as loud inside the cabin as the M3, which gives me a headache after a while -- enough already, maybe in my 20s. But what Gerry describes is what the S55 and the Allroad sound like -- probably two of the best exhaust notes ever in my opinion. Noticeable, but not obscene, making a statement similar to a bespoke suit -- definitely different, but definitely not Dance Fever either.

Gerry, I'll PM you for details.

Thanks, Guys.

maw
 
I'll try to make some recordings of mine inside and outside of the car this weekend, and post the sound files. It's raining here in Houston lately (we need the rain desperately so I am not complaining) so it may be a few more days until I get this done).

Cheers,
Gerry
 
We'll see on my exhaust,

Arnte, stiffeness is the square of the thickness=0) I'd think you could do a sheild or double wall between cat and pipe if you wanted less in the car drone. Mine, I don't like the low rpm drone, but my muffler is damaged. The hard acceleration aggressive note comes from the headers or starting the car. Gets your blood pumping.

Race cats seem more concerned with explosions due to excess fuel accumulation. Mine is 3.5 inch SS pipe, all mandrle bent.


Michael
 
You guys are killing me. I was too slow on moving on capruff's Remus, and now all I can think about is figuring out the best exhaust mod...
 
You guys are killing me. I was too slow on moving on capruff's Remus, and now all I can think about is figuring out the best exhaust mod.
Let me turn the screw a bit more..my cat-back dual exhaust with ceramic coated 3" pipes , X-pipe and free flowing mufflers. Free flowing cats are ordered from www.cargraphic.de (along with wideband O2 sensors) and that will be the last exhaust mod for me. My exhaust emits a much lower frequency note, than is captured on tape bellow.

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[video=youtube;Hwid2vRMxTc]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hwid2vRMxTc[/video]
[video=youtube;fuelRJNG9CE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fuelRJNG9CE[/video]
 
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We'll see on my exhaust,

Arnt, stiffness is the square of the thickness=0)
Michael

Yes, I know - or even more correctly is stiffness the square of the shape and size of the cross section of the object - where the wall thickness (delta D) counts to the 4.th power in the formula for hollow sections. (But it's probably not so common to think with math.formulas on this topic).

Cheers
-arnt-
 
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Let me turn the screw a bit more..my cat-back dual exhaust with ceramic coated 3" pipes , X-pipe and free flowing mufflers. Free flowing cats are ordered from www.cargraphic.de (along with wideband O2 sensors) and that will be the last exhaust mod for me. My exhaust emits a much lower frequency note, than is captured on tape bellow.

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[video=youtube;Hwid2vRMxTc]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hwid2vRMxTc[/video]
[video=youtube;fuelRJNG9CE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fuelRJNG9CE[/video]

nice!
 
Do you mind sharing cost and whether you have any drone?

Let me turn the screw a bit more..my cat-back dual exhaust with ceramic coated 3" pipes , X-pipe and free flowing mufflers. Free flowing cats are ordered from www.cargraphic.de (along with wideband O2 sensors) and that will be the last exhaust mod for me. My exhaust emits a much lower frequency note, than is captured on tape bellow.
 
we have one client who is Only running cats, super cheap, sounds Killer and drone isn't bad @ all..:)
 
So does my 1968 Plymouth GTX that has a 440 magnum. if you cruise the car at freeway speeds it will drive you bonkers! The previous owner put flowmasters on the beast and it's horrible! I prefer magnaflows but just cannot stomach cutting perfectly good units out and replacing them at least yet!
 
[we have one client who is Only running cats, super cheap, sounds Killer and drone isn't bad @ all..:)
Please elaborate on this set up.
 
Do you mind sharing cost and whether you have any drone?
The cost was over $1300. As far as drone, with an X-pipe, inside the cabin the exhaust note is heard quite clearly at slight throttle - which I'm guessing is referred to as drone? Inside my car (windows and roof closed) it sounds similar to the clip bellow - except my exhaust note is on a much lower frequency with a lower tone and inside my cabin it's louder than in the clip. The lower frequency mixed with the X-pipe makes me feel the exhaust when the feet are planted on the floor...I quite like that. I guess I'm "drone/exhaust note" friendly, that, and when I'll get the race cats from www.cargraphic.de, my exhaust will be louder still...can't wait. :pirate:

[video=youtube;cWJGrTV8BwA]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cWJGrTV8BwA[/video]
 
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This is my re-built Magnaflow resonator. It was on the car before but it was a real hack job from a muffler shop installation.

It fits into the exact space of the stock 500E resonator. Both ends are from the stock resonator. It was to expensive to make out of 100% stainless.
 

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Reason why majority of your folks have zero power-gain with their "exhauts" is that they are bad designed with performance in mind. There was lately an article posted here in this forums, with a test about X-Pipes and the conclusion after testing was, that they produce the same power-gain like custom headers do, when attached to a entirely 2-way exhaust.
All the designs i saw here uses that crap stock-design of 2->1 pipe. Also no-one can expect a power-gain by running the stock extremely restrictive ceramic cats. There are already other topics about it in which i posted the before/after dyno-verified power-gains by some german 500E drivers.
IIRC Thomas Burgmann got from ~330HP to 340HP and from 480NM to 505NM? Something like that. His system is like i always tell you guys a ENTIRELY 2-way exhaust, means each cylinder-bank has its own pipe from the beginning till the end. BEFORE his 2x 100CPI Race-Metal-Cats he has an X-Pipe in which center the O2-Sensor sits. Then there is a Resonator after the cats (actually 2 resonators in one case) and a muffler, which actually are 2 small mufflers in one larger case too.
Only if you build such a design, good thought-through from the beginning till the end (no half-hearted "cat back exhaust" or whatever) then you will gain some power.
Every other design is purely for sound, period.

Here was another topic on that issue:
http://www.500eboard.com/forums/showthread.php?1304-Center-Muffler-Delete&p=7917&viewfull=1#post7917
 
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Kleemann also makes race cats for MB. 200cell for newer cars and cost is Reasonable.
Its a shame nobody made headers for the M119.

I can get about 40hp from exhaust mods on the E550 (kleemann short tube headers,sport cat and mufflers)
 
Its a shame nobody made headers for the M119.
People have made headers for the M119. But they don't provide huge power gains. Maybe 10-15hp, tops, if even that much. The M119 is simply not that restricted on the exhaust side, and there are not major gains to be found there. Small gains, yes, maybe. Large gains, no.

:grouphug:
 
There is no "cheap horsepower" available with the M119, and this has been proven time and time again. Sure you can do little tweaks here and there, or you can go "big" and bump displacement out to 5.6 or 6.0, or you can add a supercharger. All of these approaches are going to cost big bucks -- $5K at a minimum and more typically pushing toward if not exceeding the $10K mark. The only cheap HP I've seen (best bang for the buck) is nitrous oxide and even this is only usable some of the time (albeit when you really need it). Seems to me that spending the money for the engineering, labor, and hardware on a new exhaust system is not worth the 20 or 30 HP that you'd gain from it. (This is opposed to the guaranteed & dyno-tested 25HP that you get from bolting on a set of Euro MB tri-Y exhaust manifolds and downpipes, on a US-spec M117).

If you're going to spend $8-10K on engine mods to a $15K car, to bump up the HP by maybe 50-60 HP, you may as well just go out and buy a used AMG E55 model, or something else that comes stock with 400HP.

My two cents, anyhoo.

Cheers,
Gerry
 
+1 with Gerry.

I like headers and cool custom exhausts as much as anyone, but the ROI simply isn't there. Now if you happen to buy a car that already had a nice system installed at the PO's expense (like this one), that's awesome!

:5150:
 
Well that is of course part of everyones personal opinions. Sure there is never any "cheap horsepower" to make on natural aspirated engines and i never claimed that. Its just that you and dave always spread the message that there is "NO" Power gain at all from a custom exhaust to expect and i just said that this is a wrong fact. Others simply have proven it does.

For the ROI, i on my side, who would love to hear a bit "more" of the V8 would do a entire customs exhaust in stainless steel anyway. So if i can get from this mod 10HP, maybe even 15HP and 20NM of Torque for free, the 1300€ invested are worth every penny. Also considering the most german exhaust builders give 10years warranty on the material. So i have now something very long lasting, which gave a little bit more power, provides a very nice sound, looks good from the rear and is lighter as stock. For me thats worth every penny of the aver 1300€ cost for such a custom exhaust.
 
Its just that you and dave always spread the message that there is "NO" Power gain at all from a custom exhaust to expect and i just said that this is a wrong fact. Others simply have proven it does.
There is NO power gain from a custom (typical cat-back) exhaust where a reasonable amount of money is spent. If one wants to spend $3,000 on parts, engineering time and labor, I am definitely sure that you could create an exhaust system where you could gain perhaps 10-15 HP. But for the same amount of money, you could also purchase and install a 100-HP nitrous-oxide system. Seems to me a bit better "bang for the buck."

I don't know about prices in Germany, but EUR 1300 (USD $1,700) seems a bit inexpensive if you're going to do a full exhaust from the manifolds back, including buying new catalytic converters and resonators/mufflers. A regular cat-back system in the US is going to cost $500 at a minimum, and if using good parts probably closer to $1,000. I would think a properly engineered system for a 500E, at least here in the US, is going to be north of $2,500 if "done right" -- and for what gain ... as you say 10-15 horsepower?

Might be a good ROI for some folks, but not for me !!
 
But for the same amount of money, you could also purchase and install a 100-HP nitrous-oxide system. Seems to me a bit better "bang for the buck."
This is true, but for instance here in germany it is forbidden! The "gas" it uses falls under the "Betäubungsmittelgesetz" (dunno how to translate, but it defines which drug is legal and which not), if they get you with that in your trunk, your directly going into jail for sure.
Yes price quoted for me was 1320€ at H&B Auspufftechnik for my 500E. A guy in German Forums got one made there for his W124 E420 and he payed 1300€. Completely from exhaust manifold till the end. If you don't believe me, i can send you a screenshot of the email. ;-)
When i will do it, i maybe use a "flap" technology aswell, this costs 200€ more. So again for me given the facts that i not only gain some 10HP, but a very nice sound, a lighter exhaust-system, long lasting and good-looking its a good ROI for me ;-)
 
Got any before & after dyno graphs from a 400E or 500E, showing the gains of the custom exhaust compared to stock exhaust, with no other changes? I'd like to see that!

:watermelon:
 
Got any before & after dyno graphs from a 400E or 500E, showing the gains of the custom exhaust compared to stock exhaust, with no other changes? I'd like to see that!

:watermelon:
I personally not. But Thomas Burgmann has and Bernard Marijanovic probably too. Just ask them.
Svook from this forums also said he also gaines some 10HP and some torque with his x-pipe and 2-way setup - even though still having the stock ceramic cats.
 
Interesting disscussion here. I have always liked the idea of installing a custom exhaust system including headers for a number of reasons. I like the potential weight savings possible (especially with the headers vs manifolds) as much as the potential power gains from a full system. It is also a mod that is completely reversible (this is important to me but possibly not for others). I also assume headers would help in keeping both engine and under hood temps down a bit. I have found a local shop that is currently making very nice short tube stainless headers for newer MBs ($1400.00a set) and i have discussed bringing my car over to work up a design and price. It won't happen soon, however i do intend to follow through. I don't see this as an either or with regards to other mods such as nitrous, which i agree with Gerry is the best bang for the buck. A complete system is expensive. Consider however, that many owners spend more than half that amount for a set of wheels and how nice a set of custom headers would look... it's worth it to me but only a full system with headers.

drew
 
The only down-side to stainless-steel headers I know of is that they typically have reduced lifespan as compared to cast exhaust manifolds (which never wear out).

But of course this would be after years of use.
 
This is interesting, but why is that? The material combined with the countless changes in temperature - i.e cold to hot and vice versa?
 

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