Approved ATF Discussion for 722.3 Transmission

[clarkz71]

Clark and Klink, look at this Sorry guys, big boss is on my side

Big Boss has not tried it, I think that's called hearsay, or opinion.

Not fact based like what Klink and I have actually experienced.

All you guys are making assumptions.

Why does it irk you so much that the MB fluid works great in my transmission?

I don't get it, it's like you think I'm lying...:?

I have nothing to gain by endorsing it.

When the Honcho has something to say HP related, I'll defer

 

[Roma_500E]

Big Boss has not tried it, I think that's called hearsay, or opinion.

Not fact based like what Klink and I have actually experienced.

All you guys are making assumptions.

Why does it irk you so much that the MB fluid works great in my transmission?

I don't get it, it's like you think I'm lying...:?

I have nothing to gain by endorsing it.

When the Honcho has something to say HP related, I'll defer

No, not at all.

I am enjoying debating with the knowledgeble person, sorry if it was annoying at some point.

It is truly interesting to debate with you.

My only concern regarding MB fluid is that it is sort of universal and supposedly fits all trannys .

While our trannys are quite different than the newer ones.

I do not like universal stuff I like "specially designed for" certain model.

 

[clarkz71]

Actually, the 236.14 "RED" fluid is only used from 1997 to June of 2010 on 722.6 and 722.9 transmissions

After that they use the "Blue" 236.15 fluid and there are 2 other newer fluid as well.

And you are definitely not annoying, I enjoy any member that is trying to learn or understand a different point of view

Bravo..........

 

[gerryvz]

Just because Clank uses something doesn't mean it is automatically the best way to go. For my cars, I will continue to use Dex III spec fluids.

It would be like using modern "energy conserving" motor oils in a car with an M117. Sure they officially meet the spec but they also over time cause cam and follower damage due to lack of zinc & phosphate in the oil. But it is the oil that any MB dealer would happily put in the car, and it is not correct. It is actually detrimental to the valvetrain's health and longevity.

So would you, Clank, use current spec MB motor oil at your dealerships in a customer's M117? Because MB spec told you to? Even though you know it would harm the car?

By the way I am NOT against any current or earlier MB fluid, oil or ATF. Honestly I don't care because I exclusively use Dex III ATF and i use appropriate oils for my cars' engines.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Roma_500E]

And you are definitely not annoying, I enjoy any member that is trying to learn or understand a different point of view

Bravo..........

That is why I love members of this board



Thanx for sharing your knowledge

 

[clarkz71]

Here's the transmissions that use the 236.14 fluid.

236.14 was specially designed for the 722.9 seven speed transmission

Then Mercedes decided to use it for the older 722.6 as well

 

[clarkz71]

It would be like using modern "energy conserving" motor oils in a car with an M117. Sure they officially meet the spec but they also over time cause cam and follower damage due to lack of zinc & phosphate in the oil. But it is the oil that any MB dealer would happily put in the car, and it is not correct. It is actually detrimental to the valvetrain's health and longevity.

So would you, Clank, use current spec MB motor oil at your dealerships in a customer's M117? Because MB spec told you to? Even though you know it would harm the car?

By the way I am NOT against any current or earlier MB fluid, oil or ATF. Honestly I don't care because I exclusively use Dex III ATF and i use appropriate oils for my cars' engines.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Engine oil is totally different because of the EPA and catalytic converters.
So using current (up to 2010) ATF is nothing like using energy conserving "Starburst" oils

Transmissions fluid are not affected by emissions.

The newer transmissions are very hard on fluid, both heat and OCI, they have to be better
then the older spec fluids.

Current oil at the dealer is Mobil 1 0W40 which is fine for a M119 for 7500 mile OCI spec 229.5

Diesels use the 5W40 Formula M 229.51

If I had a M117 I would use 15W50 Mobil 1 , ZDDP is much higher then the 0W40

I personally use Motul 5W40 8100 Excess group IV oil

 

[M104-AMG]

Check out these T-04 specs Dave

It's important to use the 20wt (SAE) Swepco 714, which has very different numbers.

In short, it's not molasses thick . . .

neil

 

[clarkz71]

OK, that's much better.

Thanks Neil

 

[clarkz71]

Honestly, I think this thread is making a mountain out of a molehill.

Cheers,
Gerry

 

[maw1124]

Ok, so after all of that, let me see if I have this right:

(1) The MB techs among us (Klink and Clark, God bless'em) recommend the MB 236.14 fluid for new/rebuilt .3 transmissions; and
(2) Dave and Gerry go for the Redline D4 (which is really a DexIII) for older transmissions?

I ask because I sprang for a Sun Valley trans this summer. I'm away from the car for a few months, so I'll do a write up on all that when it's finished. So far, Marc has been an absolute joy to work with, and to me, his value proposition exceeded an MB replacement, for reasons I'll document later. But my question for today is, once the unit is installed, what fluid do I want?

Can the folks in groups (1) and/or (2) weigh in on that for me please, either here or via PM? I would most appreciate it. I think I told my guys Redline, but if there's something better and I need to change that, knowing sooner is better for me.

Car is in South Florida, never goes north of the Carolinas.

Cheers, Gents.

maw

 

[gsxr]

(1) I'm not sure - I'll let them clarify.
(2) Dave, yes, he likes Red Line (either D4 or High Temp).

HOWEVER: Note that Red Line's product name is "D4" which is confusing. It is Dexron-III compatible (there is no such thing as Dexron-4).

 

[maw1124]

I just don't want my guys to put too "thin" a fluid in there, have this "hydraulic" trans not know how to act when it's cold (2-3 flare), and have them think the trans is the problem, wasting their time and my money. That's the genesis of the question, and you guys are my best source for a real answer. Thanks in advance.

Cheers,

maw

 

[gerryvz]

Just ask Marc what ATF he recommends you use in your SunValley. He's going to tell you Dex III, Vader and the Colonel be damned.

 

[clarkz71]

I know MB built transmissions use clutch and band material that is compatible with the 236.14 MB fluid, I asked

Also 3 years of use I know is a good indicator that it does work very well

Like Gerry said, ask Mark what fluid he recommends, he's seen a few transmissions and I'm sure he's tried different spec fluids as well, he should know what works in his reman transmissions

If I were to pick another fluid to use it would be the Redline D4

It has excellent specs

 

[clarkz71]

Vader and the Colonel be damned.

That's OK, I can understand a little MB technician envy.....

And reverse is fine in my car, instantaneous in fact.

 

[gerryvz]

 

[clarkz71]

 

[Cadence]

Both Dex-VI and 236.12/236.14 are thinner viscosity than Dex-III or MB 236.10 (or older MB spec).

Who has the tech specs for the new MBZ spec ATF? Do we actually know the cSt @ 100C or are we going to take MBZ's word for it…..just like Porsche says it is fine to use M1 0W-40 in an old air-cooled 911 turbo….no thanks!

Good little article http://lnengineering.com/resources/...ooled-porsche-or-any-high-performance-engine/

 

[clarkz71]

The MB fluid, depending on manufacturer is 6.3 to 6.7 cSt @ 100°C

Dexron III is 1 point higher (7.5 cSt) new.
The difference is the MB fluid maintains this number regardless of mileage
the Dex III drops after 5 to 10K miles to 4 or 5.X cSt

From Dave's favorite manufacturer, Redline on cSt loss of Dex III

I think we've covered this fairly well
The members saying it's no good, don't use it and have never tried it.

They're just repeating what they've read or been told/

I've been using it for 3 years, and my transmission shifts great, in every way.

Klink can chime in when he's back around regarding how long he's used it.

And again about the engine oil comparison. It not an accurate comparison

Engine oil lost levels of ZDDP because of the EPA and catalytic converters.

 

[clarkz71]

This shows the cSt of a few brands, (not MB) Though I've heard Fuchs is the MB supplier

As you can see, 236.10 match's Dexron III

MB updated the 722.6 transmission which was designed around the 23.10 to 236.14.

The Shell 3403 236.10 has a good reputation

 

[clarkz71]

The factory spec is 30K with the Dex II fluids available at the time these cars were new (and Dex III now). I had a situation (you can see here) with difficult shifting and it turned out to be old fluid. I think it had around 40K on it, which is far too high for dino-based ATF.

Cheers,
Gerry

This is an example of how the Dexron III loses viscosity over time.

That's why the shifting improved with new fluid

 

[clarkz71]

This is a PM I received from a Petro-Chemical engineer that helped design the MB 236.14 fluid.



Hi Clark,
Sorry for the late reply. My inbox gets completely clogged.

Your transmission was designed to operate on Dexron IID type products. I consider the use of 236.14 approved fluid to be an excellent choice. Being mostly synthetic & with the right sort of friction modifiers it should enhance transmission life. It might cause slightly greater shift shock but at least you won't flair & burn clutches.

A lot of crap is spoken out there and the viscosity issue is completely misunderstood. 236.14 products are very high VI (viscosity index). Mineral DexII products are not. High VI products start thin but thin far less with temperature rise than low VI products like DexII.

The viscosity of 236.14 will do no harm whatsoever in the 722.3 transmission. Do not use the new Blue 234.15 fluid as it is not backward compatible.

People that tell you that their transmission is so smooth after using Redline or whatever are playing with fire. The only reason it feels smoother is that it is allowing more clutch slip which leads to higher temperatures, wear & failure.

Good luck!

 

[M104-AMG]

This shows the cSt of a few brands, (not MB) Though I've heard Fuchs is the MB supplier

As you can see, 236.10 match's Dexron III

MB updated the 722.6 transmission which was designed around the 23.10 to 236.14.

The Shell 3403 236.10 has a good reputation

Nice to see that the Swepco 714 20wt matches nicely. It also has a very high viscosity index, and it's engineered for transmission longevity and not a lot of friction modifiers.

Vader- would your petro engineer comment on TO-4 ? I may not like his answer, but I'm hear to learn!

Here's a link to the Swepco 714 PDF: http://www.500eboard.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=31122&d=1405632146

neil

 

[clarkz71]

I'll PM him the information, no problem. Do you have a part#

Regarding cSt, check out the specs on Redline "Lightweight Racing ATF"

[TABLE="width: 280"][TR][TD="class: firstPropertiesCell, width: 200"]Vis @ 100°C[/TD][TD="class: lastPropertiesCell, width: 80, align: center"]4.9[/TD][/TR][TR][TD="class: firstPropertiesCell, width: 200"]Vis @ 40°C[/TD][TD="class: lastPropertiesCell, width: 80, align: center"]23.2[/TD][/TR][TR][TD="class: firstPropertiesCell, width: 200"]Viscosity Index[/TD][TD="class: lastPropertiesCell, width: 80, align: center"]140[/TD][/TR][/TABLE]
http://www.redlineoil.com/product.aspx?pid=137&pcid=9

Maybe these guys should do a little more research before commenting on what is "too thin"

 

[clarkz71]

Found it, looks like good stuff

 

[M104-AMG]

website: http://www.swepcolube.com/products/swepco-714-hydraulic-transmission-fluid

neil

 

[clarkz71]

Neil, what do they mean by can replace dexron for "on highway" applcations

http://www.racereadyproducts.com/oil--lubricants/swepco-transmission-fluid/

Lower operating temperatures helps to eliminate sludge, gum, and varnish
Extreme pressure additive builds the film strength of the oil to keep the oil between the gear teeth
Improved shift quality, extended transmission life
Can replace DEXRON fluids in on-highway applications

Pelican has a good price on gallons.

http://www.pelicanparts.com/catalog/shopcart/CARE/POR_CARE_swepco_pg10.htm

 

[M104-AMG]

Neil, what do they mean by can replace dexron for "on highway" applcations

<SNIP>

I know that various fleets (e.g., municipal, state, Universities) will try and use the same ATF for their cars and their trucks. I worked in Facilities Management at a University, and they would use the same ATF for trucks/busses and the cars. While SWEPCO wasn't on my radar then, I did know they stocked only one ATF in 55-gallon drums. The fleet techs would use the same ATF in their own cars: fringe benefit.

neil

BTW: for two years I used Peto-Canadas Duradrive MV Synthetic ATF. It meets/exceeds JASO 1 (for my Honda CR-V), Mercedes 236.x, and Dexron II and Dexron III specs (no higher), and others (similar to the Castrol Multi-vehicle import). However, since it is NOT recommended for trannys that spec a "Type F", and really engineered for anti-shudder, I abandoned it, and went back to TO-4, as the shifts were too soft for me.

See attached PDF, and more here:
http://lubricants.petro-canada.ca/en/products/612.aspx

 

[gsxr]

For grins, the Red Line Racing ATF (Type F) is even thicker... although with much better VI than the lightweight stuff:
http://www.redlineoil.com/product.aspx?pid=52&pcid=9

[TABLE="width: 280"][TR][TD="class: firstPropertiesCell, width: 200"]Vis @ 100°C, cSt[/TD][TD="class: lastPropertiesCell, width: 80, align: center"]10[/TD][/TR][TR][TD="class: firstPropertiesCell, width: 200"]Vis @ 40°C, cSt[/TD][TD="class: lastPropertiesCell, width: 80, align: center"]53.7[/TD][/TR][TR][TD="class: firstPropertiesCell, width: 200"]Viscosity Index[/TD][TD="class: lastPropertiesCell, width: 80, align: center"]177[/TD][/TR][/TABLE]

 

[clarkz71]

For grins, the Red Line Racing ATF (Type F) is even thicker... although with much better VI than the lightweight stuff

It has to, type F fluid has no friction modifiers

Ford stopped using it in 1977 and went to Mercon

[TABLE="width: 454"][TR][TD="bgcolor: #C9C9C9"][/TD][TD="class: midBorder, bgcolor: #C7C7C7"]The frictional characteristics of an automatic transmission fluid are an important factor in the design and operation of the transmission. All Ford Motor Company transmissions built prior to 1977, and certain models that continued in use during 1977-1980, were designed for a high-friction fluid that allowed the shifting clutches to lock up or engage quickly. Ford specification ESW-M2C33-F covers this type of product, which is commonly referred to as "Type F" fluid. Mobil ATF Type F is the appropriate product for these units.
[/TD][/TR][/TABLE]

 

[Maui]

What about Fuchs lubricants?

 

[clarkz71]

What about Fuchs lubricants?

From what I've hear, Fuchs is the supplier to MB for their ATF

Very good transmission fluid.

 

[Maui]

With a name like Fuchs, it has to be good!

 

[mistermiata]

KY Jelly is my Fuchs lubricant of choice.....

 

[Klink]

From what I've hear, Fuchs is the supplier to MB for their ATF

Very good transmission fluid.

Fuchs is what is in most of the MB ATF plastic bottles. The ATF "134" in bulk form (usually barrels) at the dealers is from Mobil.

 

[Klink]

KY Jelly is my Fuchs lubricant of choice.....

Absolutely correct, Andy! The name "Fuchs" translates as "Fox"!

 

[Klink]

Honestly, I think this thread is making a mountain out of a molehill.

• Any name-brand Dexron III specification is perfectly acceptable for any 722.3 transmission as found on the E500E, W126, etc. It should be changed at 25-30,000 miles
• For folks who want extended ATF drains, or have extremely severe duty, or who want the "best you can get" ATF, go with RedLine D4 or Hi-Temp, Amsoil, or Mobil 1 Synthetic. All of these are perfectly acceptable
• "Newer spec" transmission fluids like Dexron VI are questionable. May or may not be good. Technically they should work, but why push the limits when normal dino Dex III and synthetic Dex III spec ATFs are available?
• It is not a good idea to use current "MB spec" fluids for today's MB transmissions in yesteryear's MB (722.3) transmissions

End of story. Honestly ... ask yourself the question ... WHY use a current-spec ATF that may or may not be spec'd for the 722.3, when you can easily, readily, and cheaply buy dino or synthetic ATFs that are perfectly fine for our transmissions? WHAT IS THE BENEFIT OF DOING SO?

Lastly, don't cheap out on the transmission filters. Get a Mann, Elring, MB or other quality filter to go with your ATF.

Remember ... in life ... SIMPLER IS ALWAYS BETTER.

Cheers,
Gerry

Everyone has made excellent points on this thread. There's no reason for me to add anything to it. But I would like to comment on your last statement, Honch. If simpler was always better we would all be driving two-year-old certified preowned Honda Civics...

 

[emerydc8]

Castrol Transmax ATF makes a Dex III spec "High Mileage" ATF in addition to their normal ATF. Both are easy to get at places like Autozone, etc.

I changed mine today and used two gallons of Castrol Transmax ATF from Autozone for $18/gal. I used a Mann filter and noticed that they use cork for the gaskets. GVZ is right--removing the cross over pipe makes it so much easier.

 

[gerryvz]

Sometimes you can get the TransMax on sale for $14-15 a gallon, which is a great deal. Mann filters are fine, but hopefully you got the version that is specific to the 500E and 500SL, with the plastic slider and dual outlets. I have a supply of Elring filters for the E500 and I use the Manns for my pedestrian 722.3s in the 126 and my wife's former 124 wagon.

 

[clarkz71]

Everyone has made excellent points on this thread. There's no reason for me to add anything to it.

Dodging the issue of MB approving 236.10 & 236.12 atf in 722.3 are we ??

Before you comment, I'm PMing you a e-mail from one of the petro chemical engineers that helped design 236.14 atf for MB

I changed mine today and used two gallons of Castrol Transmax ATF from Autozone for $18/gal. I used a Mann filter and noticed that they use cork for the gaskets. GVZ is right--removing the cross over pipe makes it so much easier.

Actually, Dave was the first to say that in another thread.

 

[Christian_K]

Dodging the issue of MB approving 236.10 & 236.12 atf in 722.3 are we ??

Before you comment, I'm PMing you a e-mail from one of the petro chemical engineers that helped design 236.14 atf for MB

So you know people working for Fuchs germany? Because it was Fuchs Petrolube Germany which designed that oil. It was designed because of all the complaints from Mercedes Customers with the converter lockup clutch issues with the 5 Speed 722.6xx Boxes. Fuchs does not recommend that oil (ATF 4143 - 236.14) for older non lockup-clutch gearboxes, in that case they recommend a different Oil. On the other hand Fuchs says it can be used as a replacement for all 236.12 Oils and it is "better" in all terms.

The screenshot of the Mercedes Benz Bevoratungslisten from the WIS clearly shows with the "white circle" that 236.12 oils should ONLY be used in our old gearboxes if no other oils is available or in other "special cases", like with the 236.8 ONLY for arctic climates. 236.12 is NOT the optimal oil for our old non lockup clutch gearboxes.
I have stated that already in some older threads in this forums.

 

[clarkz71]

The screenshot of the Mercedes Benz Bevoratungslisten from the WIS clearly shows with the "white circle" that 236.12 oils should ONLY be used in our old gearboxes if no other oils is available or in other "special cases", like with the 236.8 ONLY for arctic climates. 236.12 is NOT the optimal oil for our old non lockup clutch gearboxes.
I have stated that already in some older threads in this forums.

This is the last time I'll say this.

I have had the 236.14 fluid in my 722.3 for 3 years.

Car shifts like new, in fact exactly like my previous E420 with Mobil D/M dex III.

So everybody can keep going on & on about how it's to thin and it's not designed for "our old transmissions"

Until I have a flared shift, or total failure, it's all opinion & hearsay.

I'm not an enthusiast, I'm a technician with a few years of experience so I think I can decide if I'm harming my own transmission.

At first, this was amusing, now it's bordering on annoying.

Lets give this a rest

 

[clarkz71]

So you know people working for Fuchs germany? Because it was Fuchs Petrolube Germany which designed that oil.

This is a post on a forum by the person in question, I won't release his name without his permission


Other members who want to take a no risk decision. Please see post #47. I have worked with the Benz service products testing & approvals regime since it's inception under the late Max Ghering. I grew up in our Product Engineering Division.

 

[Klink]

Dodging the issue of MB approving 236.10 & 236.12 atf in 722.3 are we ??

Before you comment, I'm PMing you a e-mail from one of the petro chemical engineers that helped design 236.14 atf for MB



Actually, Dave was the first to say that in another thread.

Well, I'm dodging it only in the sense that enough information has been put out on this thread that everybody should be able to pick something they think is best for their individual situation. Anything much beyond this and it's just like another motor oil thread, that is to say possibly entertaining but no one person espousing any particular fact or opinion has the slightest chance of swaying anybody else to their point of view. And also just like with motor oil, people waste endless hours worrying about it but my experience has been that in the real world of actual people driving their cars hundreds of thousands of miles, it is virtually meaningless. I have never seen an engine failure that was in any way attributable to the type, brand, viscosity, or whatever of the motor oil that was supposedly put into it. The only possible exception being 116 and 117 camshafts that may, and I am repeating only may have had a tendency to fail at a greater rate with certain brands of oil. And that was a purely mental observation on my part, it is not backed up by testing or statistics and Mercedes themselves changed the metallurgy in those cams later on, which made that condition a much more rare and random occurrence, so who knows.

In exactly the same way I have never seen an automatic transmission malfunction or fail in any way that was attributable to its fluid type.

I have seen motors damaged by failure to change the oil and filter, and that is easy to tell because obviously it turns into sludge, stops pumping, and plugs up passageways.
And I've seen them damaged by a lack of oil which when you think about it, is really kind of the same thing.

The only damages I have seen to automatic transmissions that were attributable to the fluid in any way at all also involved what was actually a lack of oil. That is to say, loss from un-repaired leaks was not replenished and / or the filter was left unchanged until it plugged up. Then again that plugging also occurs as the filters fill up with reverse brake plate material, and that material is being flung off at crankshaft speed in any forward gear seemingly no matter what one does with his fluid.

I am running the .10 in my old stuff that has been "gone through" because it is indeed approved and I was able to get about 40 L of it for dirt cheap, and "high mileage" Dexron in my older stuff of unknown seal age.

got to go talk to you guys later!

 

[clarkz71]

Yes, the 236.10 does say should use, and the 236.12 "can use".

But the 236.8 also has the "can use" circle, and that is a synthetic Dexron IIE for cold climates.

Isn't Redline D4 a synthetic Dexron III and the old MB approved Redline DexIIE ???
See where I'm going.

And your correct, just like oil everyone has their opinion, I didn't post what I used to start a ATF war.

Just that I've used 236.14 for 3 years and that's long enough to reach a conclusion. But, it's hard to open a closed mind.

 

[Klink]

Yes, the 236.10 does say should use, and the 236.12 "can use".

But the 236.8 also has the "can use" circle, and that is a synthetic Dexron IIE for cold climates.

Isn't Redline D4 a synthetic Dexron III and the old MB approved Redline DexIIE ???
See where I'm going.

And your correct, just like oil everyone has their opinion, I didn't post what I used to start a ATF war.

Just that I've used 236.14 for 3 years and that's long enough to reach a conclusion. But, it's hard to open a closed mind.

And I would also use the 14 without the slightest second thought in a nice tight transmission.

 

[clarkz71]

And I would also use the 14 without the slightest second thought in a nice tight transmission.

Indeed, my 722.366 was the first new MB reman I've installed in years. (722.3)

I forgot the quality of their work. Plug & play

To this day, I have not had to adjust anything.
The bowden cable, the modulator, even the NSS were dead on out of the crate

Installed it, filled with fluid, done

Even the fluid level is the same as the day I installed it. Freeky

 

[emerydc8]

Anyone have a price on this new MB ATF that is causing all the controversy? I just want to see how much money I saved by using Castrol.

 

[gerryvz]

Anyone have a price on this new MB ATF that is causing all the controversy? I just want to see how much money I saved by using Castrol.

+1