Bad news for modifiers: EPA proposes new guidelines for engine modifications

[J-Sauce]

"A proposal by the Environmental Protection Agency could mean bad things for racers and car enthusiasts across the United States. According to the Specialty Equipment Market Association (SEMA), the EPA wants to make it illegal to modify your roadgoing car for racing, and could even prohibit the sale of aftermaket parts that mess with emission control devices"

http://www.autoblog.com/2016/02/09/epa-illegal-modify-car-racing-sema-official/

There is already a petition open to combat this overreach of the EPA. Please take a moment to sign it for your fellow motorists who engage in the sport, and also for yourself. If this act, dubbed "Phase 2" by the EPA, is passed, who knows what "Phase 3" would propose. Do not think for a second that the EPA does not want to make it illegal to register and drive older, less "clean-running" cars such as ours AT ALL. They would probably get rid of V8+ and street performance vehicles all together if we let them. Signatures are accumulating fast. Last night when I signed, there were about 25,000, and now there are over 50,000


https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/pe...posal-prohibit-conversion-vehicles-racecars-0

 

[Glen]

Playing devil's advocate for a moment, what is so bad about mandating cars used for racing be emissions compliant?

 

[gsxr]

Playing devil's advocate for a moment, what is so bad about mandating cars used for racing be emissions compliant?

On the surface it sounds great - cleaner air is always a good thing. But seriously, what is the total pollution/emissions from racing vehicles? It's gotta be a ridiculously tiny percentage when compared to overall road-legal vehicle emissions (especially when you include large trucks/busses), not to mention other sizable sources of pollutions (factories, off-road mining/construction trucks, etc). And, racing engines in general tend to be extremely well tuned and are probably not gross polluters - depending on your definition of the term.

IMO, seems like any EPA action against racing vehicles would have extremely poor ROI. Millions invested, lots of bad press, for a tiny tiny improvement in air quality.

At least, that's my uniformed opinion. And you know what they say about opinions...

 

[J-Sauce]

Glen, I would argue that miles driven around racetracks around the country are likely less than 1% of the total miles driven by all cars in America. The total effect on air quality would, debatably, be negligible. That being said, the aftermarket parts industry brought in over $137 billion in 2014. That is an enormous amount of jobs at risk here. Even if you distill that number down to the market share that would be directly affected, emissions modifications, the numbers would still be quite large. This does not even include the thousands of jobs across the nation relating to track operations if essentially ALL "street legal" and "autocross" style racing is rendered illegal.

If you drive your car on public roads, most states already have mandated bi-annual emissions testing. If your car passes the pre-measured and agreed upon standards, what business is it of the EPA's that I put a nitrous kit on my car that I will use probably 100 miles total out of its 220,000 mile life? It should be the states' prerogative to decide whether the existing regulations are sufficient, or if they would like to further regulate race cars and emissions.

 

[gsxr]

I agree with Justin. If my street cars pass local emissions testing, why add legislation to make things even more difficult?

Seems to me like a witch hunt against a tiny number of cars which contribute an even tinier amount of (alleged) pollution.

 

[Glen]

You both mentioned that the racecar population is relatively small, so why should that small population be exempt from standards everyone else is (supposedly) abiding by?
Seems to me if every racecar had to carry full emissions equipment, it would prompt manufacturers to really improve said systems in the long run. Or promote engineering and innovation in other areas to better the racecar...and thus cars in general.

Also, don't you think it would be better if emissions regulations were federally mandated with exactly the same standards in every state and testing from any approved facility would be acceptable, no matter where you are in the U.S.? To me it's silly that some areas have no testing. It gives people the notion that it's ok for them to remove emissions controlling equipment just because no one is looking.

 

[nocfn]

While I suspect that many of the political class is pushing for unelected govt agencies to tout the party line, a sense of urgency is coming as that so called easy policy window is closing very quickly. Piss off another set of American voting block with more last minute nanny-state govt is here to help ideals!

 

[Maui]

We have an administration that can't keep its hands out of everyone's business. They are smart and know what is best for you. You are stupid and need their involvement in every aspect of your life.

 

[TerryA]

I signed the partition.

The government and the EPA are slowly taking away our liberty and freedom. These people are not even ELECTED OFFICIALS. Most are TREE HUGGERS who do not have the public's interest at heart.

It's the Chicken Little syndrome "THE SKY IS FALLING". They need to be stopped now. People need to wake up and realize what is going on around them. Just think back about 10 years and see how much you have already lost.

Sign the Partition

Enough Said

 

[Melville]

We have an administration that can't keep its hands out of everyone's business. They are smart and know what is best for you. You are stupid and need their involvement in every aspect of your life.

Doesn't every administration, D or R, stick it's hands in people's business? It's just that for any given administration, a big chunk of the population agrees with what's happening, another chunk hates it and probably the biggest chunk doesn't know or care?

 

[J-Sauce]

You both mentioned that the racecar population is relatively small, so why should that small population be exempt from standards everyone else is (supposedly) abiding by?

Glen, this small population does indeed abide by those rules. This is attempting to establish an entirely new set of rules to abolish this small population almost completely. As mentioned, most of us still have to pass smog in perpetuity every year or two. Many of the cars in question here are in fact not driven on public roads at all. We are talking about hundreds of thousands, or more, of vehicles that are used exclusively on private property. Cars that often would serve no other purpose whatsoever, and likely end up as waste.

Seems to me if every racecar had to carry full emissions equipment, it would prompt manufacturers to really improve said systems in the long run. Or promote engineering and innovation in other areas to better the racecar...and thus cars in general.

This would be inherently impossible. The goals of the racer and the general auto manufacture will never coincide. They're two, mostly, non-intersecting circles of a Ven diagram.

Also, don't you think it would be better if emissions regulations were federally mandated with exactly the same standards in every state and testing from any approved facility would be acceptable, no matter where you are in the U.S.? To me it's silly that some areas have no testing. It gives people the notion that it's ok for them to remove emissions controlling equipment just because no one is looking.

Generally, no. In most cases, I think the less blanket federal regulation, the better. The states have the ability to decide these things on their own, if the citizens of those states deem it important to them. I shouldn't have the right to tell someone in Alabama or Wyoming what I think is best for them. I do not know their local culture, geography, average income, or any of the other factors that would go into deciding whether or not emissions testing is right for them. In fact, they do. And they have decided through their inaction, at least as of yet, in implementing these laws for themselves, that they are not concerned with doing so. If it isn't important to them, it's not my job to change their way of life.

My apologies if this is becoming too much of a political debate for this forum. I just wanted to make folks aware of a proposal that may affect them. You guys can decide for yourselves whether the change would be in or against your own interest and choose accordingly whether or not to sign the petition. Cheers all!

 

[albdentist]

The legislation is absurd. Here in So Cal we routinely see trucks from Mexico crossing the border legally as a result of NAFTA. The trucks are unregulated, are huge polluters and many are unsafe, yet no politician dare touch the North American Trade Agreement.


sorry Glenn...

Mario

 

[gsxr]

Also, don't you think it would be better if emissions regulations were federally mandated with exactly the same standards in every state and testing from any approved facility would be acceptable, no matter where you are in the U.S.? To me it's silly that some areas have no testing. It gives people the notion that it's ok for them to remove emissions controlling equipment just because no one is looking.

I have mixed feelings on this. On the one hand, yes, similar standards for everyone would theoretically be more fair. But what standard would be applied? Lenient or stringent? CA / CARB takes things to the point of being ridiculous. For example, requiring that a catalytic converter have a special approval marked on it. Seriously? What matters is what comes out the tailpipe, not the number stamped on a piece of metal. If the car can pass the sniff test on the dyno at varying RPM's, why the bloody hell does it matter if the catalysts are CARB certified? The car gets tested every year, if the catalyst quality is that poor, it will fail at the next test.

Also, let's not forget how well some of the past attempts worked out... MTBE in gasoline helping air quality but contaminating ground water, and causing significant expense both at the pumps and for the refineries... or the current ethanol debacle.

 

[Glen]

I'm not agreeing with the legislation, as I said, I was just playing devil's advocate. However, the system as it stands is very broken. People assume that if there are no testing procedures in place, they are free to remove emission devices because no one will be checking. The funny thing is that if those persons ever move to an area that does check, they then have the audacity to complain about it.

No apologies necessary, Mario. But re: those polluting trucks, in the grand scheme of things, the total number of them is so small, it would be hard to regulate. Hmm...

Justin: modern cars are already very clean, emission wise. The federal policy could simply be no tampering with periodic testing/checking for compliance everywhere.

 

[Glen]

I have mixed feelings on this. On the one hand, yes, similar standards for everyone would theoretically be more fair. But what standard would be applied? Lenient or stringent? CA / CARB takes things to the point of being ridiculous. For example, requiring that a catalytic converter have a special approval marked on it. Seriously? What matters is what comes out the tailpipe, not the number stamped on a piece of metal. If the car can pass the sniff test on the dyno at varying RPM's, why the bloody hell does it matter if the catalysts are CARB certified? The car gets tested every year, if the catalyst quality is that poor, it will fail at the next test.

Also, let's not forget how well some of the past attempts worked out... MTBE in gasoline helping air quality but contaminating ground water, and causing significant expense both at the pumps and for the refineries... or the current ethanol debacle.

That's part of my point. States shouldn't be allowed to mandate over a unified federal policy.

 

[gsxr]

. However, the system as it stands is very broken.

I agree with that 110%!

re: those polluting trucks, in the grand scheme of things, the total number of them is so small, it would be hard to regulate. Hmm...

The total number may be small, but the amount of pollution they emit may be enormous. (At least compared to a well-tuned race engine.) Is there any more benefit to going after a small number of high-volume gross polluters, vs a small number of low-volume moderate polluters?

 

[J-Sauce]

Anther factor is that those trucks mentioned, which I admittedly know little of, are being driven on public roads. Many of the race cars affected by this proposal are driven on private property. What's to stop the EPA from outlawing purpose built race cars next? Or go karts, or construction equipment, or your weed whacker/lawn mower/generator etc...

 

[gsxr]

What's to stop the EPA from outlawing purpose built race cars next? Or go karts, or construction equipment, or your weed whacker/lawn mower/generator etc...

If they go that far, I think the NASCAR crowd will show up at EPA HQ with pitchforks, torches, tar, and feathers...

 

[maw1124]

Re: Bad news for modifiers: EPA proposes new guidelines for engine modification

Klink and I were discussing this over the weekend. The proposal is very broad. When they prohibit modifying emissions systems, keep in mind that's your ECU and your exhaust. So ECU tunes, headers, "racing cats" -- all of that would be out of play, is my read of it. Of course, it's ridiculous. But is it?

The VW thing probably has something to do with it, because I wouldn't be surprised if someone didn't mention in some interview that "we've been doing this for track day racing for years." To which the regulators probably replied, "oh really?" To which a reply of "yeah, and we swap out exhausts too. So how is this different?" "Oh really?"... Out comes a new proposed rule.

When I practiced law, I used to hate this by the way. I used to advise my clients not to educate the bureaucrat asking the questions -- " Keep it to a simple yes, no or I don't know, please. Don't tell them what they don't already know. You don't have to know every f*n thing." Engineers were the worst -- always trying to prove they were smarter than the questioner, creating all sorts of problems. I digress, but I can see that happening here. Now the EPA is going after all the exhaust modified rice burners we see on the street. It's a real problem when you see the cars and the exhaust looks like it's burning coal.

So if you're planning to do a track day car, I'd say get busy. I definitely have to hurry up and make a decision on my M3, where almost all of the exhausts are specified "off road / racing use only." That's the stuff that would get outlawed here, and probably ECU tunes as well. I even had a fleeting thought of whether they would stretch it to include intakes, K&N filters and the like.

Cheers,

maw

 

[r44raven]

Here's a thought. A recent report stated that the largest 15 container ships produce more pollution annually than all the cars in the world!
Makes you wonder if the proposed legislation is aimed in the wrong direction! ?

 

[jeff0093]

We build race cars as part of our business and if they mandated we use stock exhaust system and emissions that would be fine, in fact might be less costly, many of our cost come from working around emission to get the most out of the cars within the rules ($10K for 10 HP is not uncommon). I don't even want to mention what we have spent with Motec and dyno time over the years to get around OBDII

 

[2phast]

Re: Bad news for modifiers: EPA proposes new guidelines for engine modification

Klink and I were discussing this over the weekend. The proposal is very broad. When they prohibit modifying emissions systems, keep in mind that's your ECU and your exhaust. So ECU tunes, headers, "racing cats" -- all of that would be out of play, is my read of it. Of course, it's ridiculous. But is it?

The VW thing probably has something to do with it, because I wouldn't be surprised if someone didn't mention in some interview that "we've been doing this for track day racing for years." To which the regulators probably replied, "oh really?" To which a reply of "yeah, and we swap out exhausts too. So how is this different?" "Oh really?"... Out comes a new proposed rule.

When I practiced law, I used to hate this by the way. I used to advise my clients not to educate the bureaucrat asking the questions -- " Keep it to a simple yes, no or I don't know, please. Don't tell them what they don't already know. You don't have to know every f*n thing." Engineers were the worst -- always trying to prove they were smarter than the questioner, creating all sorts of problems. I digress, but I can see that happening here. Now the EPA is going after all the exhaust modified rice burners we see on the street. It's a real problem when you see the cars and the exhaust looks like it's burning coal.

So if you're planning to do a track day car, I'd say get busy. I definitely have to hurry up and make a decision on my M3, where almost all of the exhausts are specified "off road / racing use only." That's the stuff that would get outlawed here, and probably ECU tunes as well. I even had a fleeting thought of whether they would stretch it to include intakes, K&N filters and the like.

Cheers,

maw

Exactly the same problem we have with the ATF. Too many people opening up their traps and "educating" the Federal Government.

 

[Klink]

Well, I keep telling everyone that I think they are missing the point in trying to turn their E5Es into race cars. Looks like at least the feds agree...

 

[gsxr]

Well, I keep telling everyone that I think they are missing the point in trying to turn their E5Es into race cars. Looks like at least the feds agree...

I didn't have to turn mine into a race car. It already was! I just drive it like it's supposed to be driven... so does the wifey, as seen below (that's not me driving - I was taking the picture).

 

[whipplem104]

I think that it is 100% related to the case that the manufacturers were bringing to make it illegal to modify the factory tunes as it was proprietary. And that most parts sold as for off road purposes only get used on cars that are on the road. The problem really lies in that this is a multi billion dollar industry and the idea that you are going to shut that down is quite simply not going to happen. What they should really do is mandate emissions inspections in all 50 states. Not just a test but full CARB. with a physical inspection. Then you could build a race car for the race track and do not need registration and tabs. But it is barking up the wrong tree. If you just eat one less cheese burger a week you can offset your carbon emissions by more than your car produces or just drive older cars. Building a new car produces more emissions than an oil burning smoke screen from 1960 will ever produce.

 

[maw1124]

Well, I keep telling everyone that I think they are missing the point in trying to turn their E5Es into race cars. Looks like at least the feds agree...

I know you jest. But I should look back at the rule, as I think it only starts with cars built in MY2016 or later. Which means for all of us factory tuner car lovers here, demand for your fleet may actually go up. Your RennTech 500E with modified exhaust (or even mine) might be worth more money not less in the US. Same for your M3's (ability to mod it was very high on my decision tree), E55s, S55s, etc. If this information is wrong, I'll come back and delete or edit this post.

More here...http://jalopnik.com/the-epas-crackdown-on-race-cars-explained-1758111546

Also GSXR makes a good point -- the fact is the aftermarket tuner parts business is a multi billion dollar business because people want fast cars (or fast sounding cars) on the street, not for the track. It's the Stoplight Derby where most of that spend goes. And a bone stock 500E or S55 is beating the snot out of most cars, AND giving off less emissions than a cow fart. The number of people who do cat, resonator and muffler deletes on the 55Kompressor, 600TT and 65 series cars is the reason the modern C63 sounds like it does. But they are not big polluters either.

The problem is the Honda Civic with 200k miles on it that's been modded with a 4" fart can exhaust, an eBay chip, and O2 sensor bypass, all installed in Cheech and Chong's driveway at night using cell phone light. I think the EPA is right to go after them. And as long as it's MY2016 and later, I don't really care, because the tuner cars I want in those years don't need modding any more. If I roll up with a W222 65 AMG, I won't be changing a thing, thank you very much. And I'll be dusting off most cars I see in any Stoplight Derby.

Cheers,

maw

 

[gsxr]

... a bone stock 500E or S55 is ... giving off less emissions than a cow fart.

I need to make that my new signature line.

 

[dbb7697]

It is simply the overreach of unelected beaurocrates that is and will continue to encroach on our freedoms. Accepting this is just one more freedom lost. Some may think this is a good idea because the affect on their lives is nothing or a positive because they think they are breathing better. . One day a new law or regulation will affect something they enjoy and then what. It's too late. You would have helped that freedom to be taken by not standing up for everyone's freedom. We all have to stand up for our freedoms. Freedom is for everyone not the chosen few.

 

[TerryA]

Here's a thought. A recent report stated that the largest 15 container ships produce more pollution annually than all the cars in the world!
Makes you wonder if the proposed legislation is aimed in the wrong direction! ?

This is one of the main problems. They pick on the the little people who don't have the power to fight back while allowing large corporations to get away with murder.

We can only do what we are doing by getting the word out and by signing the partition. We also have to rely on people like NASCAR, NHRA, SCCA and SEMA to lobby for us in Washington. I would imagine that they are already on it.

Lastly we can't keep voting in these bleeding heart liberals into office. They want to rule every facet of our lives. Hypocrites like Al Gore with his "INCONVENIENT TRUTH" BS or Bloomberg with the size of slurpees that your allowed to buy in NYC. The list goes on;

The Rant Continues

 

[J-Sauce]

The petition is has been fulfilled, and in just about 48 hours! That's the fastest moving whitehouse.gov petition I've seen yet. Maybe this thread should be locked before our personal politics start distracting from our love of the 036?

 

[Ascension]

You both mentioned that the racecar population is relatively small, so why should that small population be exempt from standards everyone else is (supposedly) abiding by?
Seems to me if every racecar had to carry full emissions equipment, it would prompt manufacturers to really improve said systems in the long run. Or promote engineering and innovation in other areas to better the racecar...and thus cars in general.

Also, don't you think it would be better if emissions regulations were federally mandated with exactly the same standards in every state and testing from any approved facility would be acceptable, no matter where you are in the U.S.? To me it's silly that some areas have no testing. It gives people the notion that it's ok for them to remove emissions controlling equipment just because no one is looking.

Glen just another step towards governmental control of EVERY aspect of the US population.
For many years I was involved at the national level with public policy as a former State Chair and national exc committee member of a Minor Political Party. I know several personally who are in the Presidential race this time.
What burns me to no end is this systematic leftist push for strangling regulations in the US for EPA while this administration ignores CHINA!! If there is a single government who is killing this planet it is CHINA. we are talking a nation where you can't see across the street for the smog and must wear masks to go outside yet they remain nu-regulated by the international community while we get hammered ( one of the few areas I agree with Trump over is China!!)!!
My father and my Father in law BOTH served in WWII in combat. What they fought against is now becoming the norm HERE with all this nanny state fascism.
In the words of a few of our founders

"If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen." ~ Samuel Adams

Fear is the foundation of most governments; but it is so sordid and brutal a passion, and renders men in whose breasts it predominates so stupid and miserable, that Americans will not be likely to approve of any political institution which is founded on it. - John Adams, Thoughts on Government (1776)

Fredrick Douglass
"Those who profess to favor freedom, and yet depreciate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground. They want rain without thunder and lightning. They want the ocean without the awful roar of its waters. This struggle may be a moral one; or it may be a physical one; or it may be both moral and physical; but it must be a struggle! Power concedes nothing without a demand. It never did, and it never will. Find out just what people will submit to, and you have found out the exact amount of injustice and wrong which will be imposed upon them; and these will continue until they are resisted with either words or blows, or with both. The limits of tyrants are prescribed by the endurance of those whom they oppress."

In the end THIS!!

"Government exists for the interests of the governed, not for the governors. The purpose of government is to enable the people of a nation to live in relative safety and happiness. Benjamin Franklin once wrote,“In free governments the rulers are the servants and the people are their superiors and sovereigns.” The people hold the ultimate powers in a free society and the people should exercise those powers directly or through representatives in a competent and practical manner. As Americans, we don’t honor the government, we honor our nation. Our organization doesn’t want America to fail; we want the bankrupt liberal and Statist ideologies to fail. As members of the citizenry, we resist liberalism, we resist socialism, we resist collectivism, and any form of fascism and communism. We resist the United Nations and their "New World Order" mentality. We resist tyranny and oppressive government in any form."~Gerry Emery

 

[TerryA]

See Yahoo Autos today Friday 2/12/16 for an article on how the EPA slipped this quietly in to their new legislation.

Please read the interesting comments posted.

I'd post the article but I don't know how.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[maw1124]

See Yahoo Autos today Friday 2/12/16 for an article on how the EPA slipped this quietly in to their new legislation.

Please read the interesting comments posted.

I'd post the article but I don't know how.

https://www.yahoo.com/autos/epa-moves-to-ban-race-cars-built-from-road-140312457.html

And here is the problem, the so-called offroad racing exemption: "As understood by enthusiasts today, EPA rules allow vehicles and engines built with EPA-certified emissions controls to be used for racing or other competition with those controls modified or removed, as long as those vehicles are no longer driven on public roads." What they wanted to do was close off that exemption, because there's no way for them to police who has done what to which car and whether said car is driven on public roads. So it basically became a black hole of a loop hole in the Clean Air Act (which says you can't modify emissions systems on cars).

It would be like the IRS ruling you don't have to pay income tax if you intend to otherwise use the money for charity. Since the IRS can't police anyone's intent, such a rule would basically mean nobody pays income tax. Of course, we know billions of dollars walked through that exemption, and God only knows how much pollution. It seems fairly clear to me that world weather patterns are FUBAR.

That said, newer cars have better power AND emissions, so the people who will be harmed by this are: (1) the people who cannot afford such cars; (2) the people who could afford it but would rather modify a street legal car; and (3) the people who sell performance modifications for groups (1) and (2).

maw

P.S. I have two chip and exhaust modified cars. Both reside in states that don't even check. In both cases, I made sure they were at least as emissions friendly as they were before I touched them. The ones I haven't modified, it's because I'm not sure I can improve upon them in an emissions friendly way.

 

[maw1124]

Doesn't every administration, D or R, stick it's hands in people's business? It's just that for any given administration, a big chunk of the population agrees with what's happening, another chunk hates it and probably the biggest chunk doesn't know or care?

This^^^

 

[Trae]

... a bone stock 500E or S55 is ... giving off less emissions than a cow fart.

Too funny!!