Bolt on performance exhaust for the 500e (testing waters)

[5thscaleracer]

Gerry and others,

What is your definition of power gains?

Everyone's is different you have realistic and unrealistic.

Unrealistic: example... peak power say 300hp at 5000rpm plus 20 from bolt on mods giving you 320hp.

The only way to achieve that type of gain is internal engine work, or forced induction etc.

Or realistic power gains dyno graph supplied as example. My personal Ece 190e 2.3-16
View attachment 33602

Where total peak power gain is 6 but useable mid range power gain is significant.

Because bolt on mods don't give high peak power values. Only altering the combustion chamber and the sequence of events will cause large peak power gains.

Bolt on stuff basically unlock lost power in how it's delivered so the gains are felt in acceleration.

This has always been a misinterpreted claim with every tuner or performance parts manufacturer for NA motors, forced induction is different.

Tuners claim 5-10% gain question is where?
Consumers think it's peak HP + 5-10%.

The % gain is always in power delivery not where the power curve peaks.

So those thinking headers/exhaust will give you 20+ hp gain at its peak well sorry to say it won't happen.


I probably lost a lot of potential customers with this post but this my interpretation of power gains.

Thanks
JC

 

[clarkz71]

Since the cars on this forum have the M119 engine, we need to see a dyno graph showing 20hp with that engine
anywhere in the power band

What works on 2.3 liter M102.983 may not work on the M119 with variable intake cam timing

 

[5thscaleracer]

Since the cars on this forum have the M119 engine, we need to see a dyno graph showing 20hp with that engine
anywhere in the power band

What works on 2.3 liter M102.983 may not work on the M119 with variable intake cam timing

Exactly, which is why we still need to finalize exhaust canister design for this specific motor.

This is why universal mufflers work good on certain applications and not so good in others.

 

[gerryvz]

I don't know what you think is realistic in terms of a power gain. But this goes to the premise of what I've said in this thread from the get-go.

I mean, I can bolt on the M117 MB factory "tri-y" headers sitting in my attic right at this moment, and throw my US-spec M117 downpipes/manifolds/crossover pipe in the ditch, and get 25 true, dyno-confirmed, HP in my 560SEC today. But that's a 1980s MB design when they didn't really know yet how to exhausts right, so US cars got shafted in that department (and in others too, such as compression ratio, cam profiles, etc.). LOL - ever seen the dual-kidney rear muffler design on the W126? There's even more free HP to be had by replacing that sucker out! I got my Tri-Ys for free, from a friend in Europe. I've had numerous people here begging me to sell them to them for $1,200+, and I've refused time and time again.

And your 2.3-16 falls into the same category - it's a 1980s design when MB exhausts weren't optimized and emissions technology wasn't as perfected as it has become. Both of these cars have plenty of performance "low-hanging fruit" some of which can be harvested by designing/installing a better-designed exhaust system.

Fast-forward to the 1990s, and the 036. It was designed from the get-go as a performance sedan, and there were certain tweaks done to the variation of the M119 as found in the .036 that optimized it for performance above and beyond the W140 and R129 models. The exhaust of the .036 was very very good out of the box. There's no performance "low hanging fruit" with the M119 exhaust as found in the .036.

Many people have tried various combinations of things over the past 10 years. I have yet to see any sort of before and after dyno sheets, or timeslips from the dragstrip for that matter, that detail any increase in peak power, or increased/improved power delivery.

So now, if it's not peak HP performance, then as you say it will be power delivery, as evidenced by faster acceleration? Wouldn't dyno sheets as well as quarter-mile timeslips help show that?

 

[clarkz71]

So now, if it's not peak HP performance, then as you say it will be power delivery, as evidenced by faster acceleration?
Wouldn't dyno sheets as well as quarter-mile timeslips help show that?

Great post Gerry, and if he can get 20hp in the midrange, that's the
best are to make power, as it's usable on the street AND the track.

Peak power is really track only, which most members won't use.




589

 

[Maui]

Different dyno equipment will provide different results. Dynocom or Superflo tend to show higher results than a Mustang dyno. If you're looking at dynographs you need to compare runs on the same machine under the same conditions.

 

[gerryvz]

Different dyno equipment will provide different results. Dynocom or Superflo tend to show higher results than a Mustang dyno. If you're looking at dynographs you need to compare runs on the same machine under the same conditions.

This is correct. I dyno'd my E500 many years ago with and without nitrous-oxide on both Mustang and DynoJet dynos, and got measurably different results. I have a graph that I've posted many times over the years, also including published results for NOS from BergWerks founder Carl Genberg's car, as bases (plural of basis) for comparison.

Cheers,
Gerry

 

[clarkz71]

 

[5thscaleracer]

Yes dyno and drag strip times will show results in power delivery.

 

[Stevester 500E]

Hopefully you can get 20 extra hp in the midrange.
But you haven't lost me as a customer. I wouldn't mind some bling and even 10-13 Hp gain in mid range would probably still be attractive to those of us who are running stock and also appreciate a more aggressive sound.

 

[5thscaleracer]

That's the goal... See how much power can be gained with a cat back and a manifold back kit.

 

[MBMAN]

 

[gerryvz]

+589 !!!

 

[Cannoli]

I may be part of the "Ritalin generation", but I also prefer an unseen exhaust. Sure, I hate the rusty old tips and pipes as much as the next guy, and I'd love to see a nice clean setup when the car is on a lift, but not when the on the ground. Turned down tips please

Me too!

 

[savmjv]

For those of us still tracking the progress of this project: I emailed the OP and here's what I got back....

"Materials have been ordered we will have a running prototype for sound check in about 3-4 weeks time. Given that the holidays are around the corner things will be progressing slowly.

Thanks for the pm
JC"

 

[5thscaleracer]

Small Update...

We will have the first produced Test exhaust fitted hopefully by this Wednesday.

Stay tuned for sound files to be posted with in a week or so...

 

[8899]

Stay tuned for sound files to be posted with in a week or so...

And then dyno graphs soon thereafter???

 

[5thscaleracer]

And then dyno graphs soon thereafter???

yes something like that...

Need to schedule dyno time.

 

[5thscaleracer]

Things accomplished..
- No Drone at 60mph 70mph 80mph (2,000; 2,500; 3,000; 3,500 rpm)
- Sounds like Jeff's W210 Brabus car
- roughly 20lbs total weight
- Utilizing 1 canister tuned specifically for the 32V V8
- Simple DIY install at home (removing the stock muffler is the hardest part)

2pc kit cat back, Mid pipe (res delete), Rear canister

Sound files to follow this weekend, Dyno to eventually follow need to borrow a car.
First shipment of 5 turn downs and 5 tipped exhaust will be available by 12-17-2014
Next Scheduled production run 3-2-2015

contact Matt @ Leistung Autohaus for details...

www.leistungautohaus.com

Attached are shots of the over engineered Exhaust hangers and expansion tab.

 

[Roma_500E]

Looks good to me . If you do not want to have permanent changes (irreversable changes) in your car this is a good opportunity to enjoy new look and sound of the exhaust.

I am interested, though have couple of questions.

1. How did you design the inside of a muffler ? I assume it is not just an empty box ? it supposed to have some walls ?
2. Price?
3. Diameter of a single pipe ? (bigger than stock? )
4. I do not have cats on my car, so how your exhasut will work on my car.
5. Will you offer two pipe design exhaust system ?
6. And yes would like to hear sound of it .

I do not care about power gain but I do really care about look and sound.

If you are not comfortable to post answers here please feel free to email me at royaltyon500e@gmail.com

 

[gsxr]

2pc kit cat back, Mid pipe (res delete), Rear canister

Price?

How about a photo of the connections at the catalyst?

Looks nice!

 

[5thscaleracer]

Answers below

Looks good to me . If you do not want to have permanent changes (irreversable changes) in your car this is a good opportunity to enjoy new look and sound of the exhaust.

I am interested, though have couple of questions.

1. How did you design the inside of a muffler ? I assume it is not just an empty box ? it supposed to have some walls ?

The exhaust canister is something developed in house based on application. The body's as essentially two pressure chambers and a 3 to twin 2.5" Preforated balance tubes. The positioning is the key to canceling unwanted resonance. The muffler packing used is something we brought back from Europe while visiting other mfg's years ago. This material is one of the reasons why there is a premium price.

in the USA muffler pickings are glass fibers, steel wool, and a high temp kevlar/cotton type fabric.

The internal design is proprietary and I can't disclose specifics in much more detail. But rest assure this is not a cheap universal muffler bought from a catalog hacked to fit.

2. Price?

$1500.00 Leistung Autohaus has been appointed master distributor for this product please contact them directly.
www.leistungautohaus.com

3. Diameter of a single pipe ? (bigger than stock? )

this is bolts up after the cat which is about 51-52mm id then the radius collector is 63mm then opens up to 76mm towards the back can.

the collector design is used to balance exhaust waves from the left bank cat and right.

4. I do not have cats on my car, so how your exhasut will work on my car.

I can't tell you exactly without seeing and knowing pipe diameters used on your current exhaust.

Any exhaust shop with the proper skills and the ability to weld stainless can adapt this exhaust. This exhaust is designed to bolt up 100% like the factory unit with out hacking anything.

drivers side Union uses a flange and factory seal ring Union, passenger side is slip fit with a flat clamp.

a Ypipe cat delete will be available in 2015 all depending on demand


5. Will you offer two pipe design exhaust system ?

NO

two pipe design is unnecessary this will reduce velocity and reduce the scavenging effect at the manifold.

6. And yes would like to hear sound of it .

go pro video and sound samples will be taken this Saturday

I do not care about power gain but I do really care about look and sound.

If you are not comfortable to post answers here please feel free to email me at royaltyon500e@gmail.com

Price?

Price is set at $1500.00 available through Matt @ Leistung

How about a photo of the connections at the catalyst?

Looks nice!

 

[kwontumspeed]

Awesome! Sent Matt an email.

 

[Glen]

Any pictures of the turn-down version?

 

[gerryvz]

Will any shaving/cutting of the underside of the rear bumper cover be required for either version?

How many extra horsepower is this exhaust providing?

 

[600Eric]

All,

I just happened to stop by Matt's shop on the way home from work last night so I was able to see and hear this exhaust in person. As you can see from the pictures the build quality is excellent. With regards to the sound I tried recording it with the video camera on my cell phone but I wouldn't bother posting it here because it sound's nothing like it actually does in person. Hopefully the Go Pro will be able to better replicate it because it really sounds great. Not obnoxious but at the same time it will definitely turn heads. Also having personally put quite a few miles on Jeff's Brabus 6.4L W210 I can definitely vouch for what JC has stated in his post above. All that said one of the turn-down versions is already sold.

 

[5thscaleracer]

Any pictures of the turn-down version?

I should have pictures of the turndown kit by next Friday. The first 10 kits are being assembled as we speak.
The tips will be 2.5" dia located in the stock position. It looks similar to the MEC turndown kit.

Tips will have a brushed look

Will any shaving/cutting of the underside of the rear bumper cover be required for either version?

How many extra horsepower is this exhaust providing?

No trimming what so ever it was designed specifically to fit as if it were a factory part. It even utilizes the bump stop from the factory hanger just like the OE unit.

As for power I would say cat back exhausts are good for +500hp and + 342lb/ft of torque in addition to the 1000hp these cars make stock.

But I won't know till we dyno a car. Currently seeking a good running 500e with owners consent to do 6 pulls of before and after runs.

The test car will need to be inspected by Matt to make sure there are no issues before and after the tests are done.

Most of the power gains would take place by correcting the y pipe and tuning the mid section w/o cats.

That will take place later in the year and be an option for those looking for a "race kit"

 

[J-Sauce]

I'd be happy to offer my car as a dyno vehicle. We could also do runs on nitrous to see if any gains are made there

Edit: actually, my car would not be able to give normal results. I have my heads ported/matched to the intake. Forget I said anything.

 

[modzona]

Well with a before and after run you will see what the exhaust does for the power gain.

 

[gsxr]

Well with a before and after run you will see what the exhaust does for the power gain.

Correct... the important part is that no other changes are made besides just swapping the cat-back exhaust parts. So, your car would be fine for test purposes, Justin!

 

[J-Sauce]

Yes, but the gains would be different on a car with assisted intake mods. I may gain more power than a car without them, and the results may not be an applicable selling point for some folks. I imagine 5thscaleracer would like to use a stock vehicle to leave as little doubt as possible as to any power gains that show on a dyno.

 

[gerryvz]

Whatever you do, DONT let them try to claim your NOS HP boost is from the exhaust.

I think we need to start a pool on HP gain from this. $5.00 to enter. I say minus-two.

 

[126v8]

Whatever you do, DONT let them try to claim your NOS HP boost is from the exhaust.

I think we need to start a pool on HP gain from this. $5.00 to enter. I say minus-two.

You really don't have any hope for hp gains from this exhaust Gerry.IMHO a car without any mods will be the best for the dyno testing for this exhaust so we can see what's what.

 

[5thscaleracer]

What I am looking for in a test car is
1. Must be 100% stock with no mods
2. Service records must be up to date
3. Use of OES or OE equivalent maintenance parts used for maintenance repairs.
4. This car must be inspected by Matt @ Leistung to determine that the car is in good running condition.

Let's start a pool I say +2

 

[5thscaleracer]

Btw how do these cars dyno?? Does ASR (anti stupid regulator) kick in?

 

[Ascension]

Let's start a pool I say +2

From what I have seen + 7 cat back. With proper tuned headers and a reprogram no cats +20.

 

[5thscaleracer]

Aw man you just ruined the pool

 

[gerryvz]

For dyno purposes, you disable the ASR system. It can be done in seconds. GSXR has a thread on the proper dyno procedure to prepare the car. 10 years ago or so when I installed my nitrous system, I dyno'd the car with and without nitrous, and used both a Mustang and a DynoJet dyno for those purposes. Then I compared to a known good car that belonged to the owner of the company that created the nitrous kit.

+2 HP at $1,500? $750 per is quite expensive HP, even for an M119. You can get ~100 HP for $1,500 with a nitrous kit.

Many of these cat-back exhausts have been known to actually ROB horsepower from the stock/factory setup.

 

[5thscaleracer]

Jesus freaking rocket science

 

[-Mackan-]

What will the price be for the tipped version? And possible shiping cost to Sweden?


The exhaust looks very good!

Even if it doesn't gain hp i think people will be interested in buying one just because its a high quality and a well made exhaust...

 

[tanger]

My car is at Matt's now, in fact I think those pics are off my car as I gave him the ok to test fit. Happy to have u guys use mine to dyno.

Can't wait to hear how it sounds, I care less about perf gains than I do getting some understated rumble...

 

[Klink]

Jesus freaking rocket science

Mary Baker Eddy couldn't have said it better...

 

[Ascension]

Aw man you just ruined the pool

LOL ok got to ask HOW?
+5 to 7 should be a solid min goal on cat back. +20 with the right set of tuned headers and a reprogram that will take advantage of the extra flow and pulse tuning I have always though was workable. Trick would be a REAL set of actual tuned headers that would fit in the compartment. What makes this hard on these is the dual exhaust ports per cylinder in that cramped compartment and getting that initial pulse tuned right with those dual ports. There is I am convinced a big time mid range torque potential increase with the right header on the M119.

 

[gerryvz]

Nope. Won't happen. Seen it tried too many times over the past 12-13 years on the .036


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[5thscaleracer]

What will the price be for the tipped version? And possible shiping cost to Sweden?


The exhaust looks very good!

Even if it doesn't gain hp i think people will be interested in buying one just because its a high quality and a well made exhaust...

The cost to produce tipped or turndown is the same, the turndown believe it or not is more intricate to produce and weld vs the tipped by his is due to two radius bends at 2 sections of the tip and material growth after welding.

T304 expands almost 1/8" in all directions

Price is set at $1500.00

I need a city and postal zip code to get estimated shipping costs

Here are shipping dimensions so you have an idea of box and weight.

Box
L: 58"
W: 18"
H: 14"

Shipping weight with all the packing materials 48-50lbs.

 

[gsxr]

freaking rocket science

It's not nearly as hard as it sounds, but if you don't follow the procedure I outlined, you won't have valid results. Disable ASR, kickdown, pull in 3rd gear from 2k to rev limiter, and do the first pull with the engine temp under 80C. Make sure there is an RPM signal to obtain the torque curve. Even better if it can all be done with stock wheels and wideband O2 connected to the dyno. Best yet would be a DynoJet where you can post the raw .drf run files.

 

[sheward]

My car is at Matt's now, in fact I think those pics are off my car as I gave him the ok to test fit. Happy to have u guys use mine to dyno.

Can't wait to hear how it sounds, I care less about perf gains than I do getting some understated rumble...

Thanks for allowing the use of your car, tanger. There are two additional benefits from this exhaust that are not often discussed. Weight savings and durability. If this system without the factory resonator can eliminate 30lbs. we've essentially added an additional 5hp. Possibly most important to owners in corrosive climates this could be a significantly cost effective replacement. I applaud your efforts 5thscaler. Looking forward to pics of alternate tips and dyno results.

drew

drew

 

[gsxr]

+5 to 7 should be a solid min goal on cat back. +20 with the right set of tuned headers and a reprogram that will take advantage of the extra flow and pulse tuning I have always though was workable. Trick would be a REAL set of actual tuned headers that would fit in the compartment. ... There is I am convinced a big time mid range torque potential increase with the right header on the M119.

And as we've said repeatedly... you can't "reprogram" the timing on the factory computers, and almost nobody is willing to toss it all for aftermarket ECU because the ROI is terrible. So far, all the evidence has indicated that tubular headers are only worth, maybe, 10hp on a 6L engine. Unless of course RENNtech was doing it wrong. Just because the factory manifolds and exhaust LOOKS bad to YOUR eyes, does not mean it flows terrible and is the cause of some massive power loss. The fact that the M119 has been in production for nearly 25 years and in that entire time nobody has developed headers/exhaust with a proven double-digit power gain speaks volumes, IMO... but keep in mind that I'm just a keyboard jockey, not a flow engineer.

 

[gsxr]

Thanks for allowing the use of your car, tanger. There are two additional benefits from this exhaust that are not often discussed. Weight savings and durability. If this system without the factory resonator can eliminate 30lbs. we've essentially added an additional 5hp. Possibly most important to owners in corrosive climates this could be a significantly cost effective replacement. I applaud your efforts 5thscaler. Looking forward to pics of alternate tips and dyno results.

If total weight is 20 lbs (seems very light), then yes, it would be a ~29 lb savings compared to stock, which is highly impressive:

 

[gerryvz]

but keep in mind that I'm just a keyboard jockey, not a flow engineer.

Yes Dave, you haven't reached 'keyboard warrior' status like Ron and I have, LOL !!