+589If you can figure out a way to increase power substantially at a reasonable cost, you'd have people beating down your door with fists full of cash. Whining about what MB should have done 20 years ago isn't going to help us now...
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Bolt on performance exhaust for the 500e (testing waters)
- Thread starter 5thscaleracer
- Start date
And I'd advise them to use their fist full of cash on an E55k. MB eventually found that a supercharger was the answer, and they provided it to the market. Say thank you and go buy one.
Jus sayin'
maw
+589!!!
A W211 E55K (2005-2006 vintage) is likely in our future, several years down the road, if funds are available. Preferably a wagon. You could buy two E55 sedans that run high 11's bone stock, for what it would cost to build a single 6.0L M119 that would have trouble dipping into the 12's in a W124. I know Eric is waiting for them to drop under $1k so that may take a few additional years...
Not by any means! Quite the contrary, 05 and 06 are some of the Best newer years to own IMHO/IME.
Both the 211, 220, 219 to name a few were benefiting from All the updates made to the 112/113 kompressor or no...and the .6 was So much more reliable then the .9 trans.
Oh, and last of the I6 diesels too...!!
05/06 +1.
Jono
Both the 211, 220, 219 to name a few were benefiting from All the updates made to the 112/113 kompressor or no...and the .6 was So much more reliable then the .9 trans.
Oh, and last of the I6 diesels too...!!
05/06 +1.
Jono
X10,000
There aren't any "dark years" Eric. There are individual models during any given year that may be more or less desirable than another, and they overlap and interweave throughout the decade just as they always have.
Some of them had a problem or two when they were introduced and, those problems got addressed. Most of them were problems that got fixed once and that was that. It's not one bit different than it was with the 124s that most of our obsessions center around.
Only there was actually less of it as time went on. That is to say, over 10 years time there was less to fix on at 210 or 211 for example. 220s get a bad rap for both of its active suspension systems and flimsy front seat surround trim on 2000 through 2002 models. Same for the 211 models that use the air suspension. All models that use an electronic ignition switch will probably eventually need an electronic ignition switch. But that's pretty much it. Most of the other failures are just like on older models, and they can be filed under the heading of "rubber", except again there tends to be less of that the newer the model you get.
Overall each succeeding model was more reliable than the model it replaced once the sometimes enormous additional sophistication of things like an active suspension system were factored in.
Just as in real estate it's "location, location, location, with preowned cars its "condition, condition, condition". Any given one of these cars can be great, or can be a horrible fright pig depending on how it was taken care of. Things like "era" are thrown around by the least knowledgeable people trying to sound like they are the most knowledgeable people, and generally they are nothing more than the concoctions of people trying to justify their emotional biases, mostly to themselves, and those biases usually buoy up what they happen to already own, while trashing everything that they don't happen to own at that particular point in time. I could cite tens of examples of this but I actually have to go to work.
Always consider this when on this subject however: Decades after its introduction the 124 for example is thought of as a high water mark, the absolute exemplar of quality and reliability. Why? There are reasons for the perception but they are actually too subtle, and too "inside baseball" to go into here, and it is mostly related to how it feels when you drive it, but by any "objective" standard that a "normal" non-enthusiast person might use, it is one of the most horribly underdeveloped automobiles ever foisted on a gullible motoring public. Pick any model of it from any "era" it was produced in. Look at the pages that comprise the list of things that already have, or are just about to fail. Add up the dollar amounts of those? It's truly horrifying to a "normal" person as it probably should be. Yet we just think it's great. And you know what, it is great, based on a completely different set of standards. But that "failures" list that most people would use to define a "dark era" much less the "darkest of dark eras"? It's hilariously small compared to that list on a 124...
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Yep, the 05 and 06 diesels, Eric. Direct injection straight six and magnificent cars overall. However the price premium they bring over the gasoline powered car make them ridiculous to buy IMO. But damn they drive sweet!
Echoing Klink #209, the first thing people say to what they don't understand is "No." It's also the first thing they say to what they're afraid of. And it's the first thing they say to what they can't afford.
Jus' sayin.
I've owned my '06 S55 for over 5 years. In terms of total ownership cost (acquisition + maintenance & repair), the 500E is quickly catching up to it, even though acquisition costs of the 500E were less than one third that of the S55. And both were by all accounts bought very well. The dreaded ABC valve cost on the S55 (for one example) looks just like 2 rear shocks on the 500E. Except there's a lot less going wrong (and a lot more driving going on) with the S55. Ownership math bears out Klink's observations.
In my generation, the W140 characterized the "dreaded years". I grew up and discovered that was about bio-degradable wire harnesses. Simple enough, and now I can afford to have it fixed.
I just think it's a $40k game, however you decide to play it, if you want to play it right. Whether that's $10k acquisition + $30k M&R, or $30k acquisition + $10k M&R, or somewhere in the middle, is up to you. Knowing that slows me down a bit when I'm tempted by that "that was fun, let's do it again!" feeling.
maw
Jus' sayin.
I've owned my '06 S55 for over 5 years. In terms of total ownership cost (acquisition + maintenance & repair), the 500E is quickly catching up to it, even though acquisition costs of the 500E were less than one third that of the S55. And both were by all accounts bought very well. The dreaded ABC valve cost on the S55 (for one example) looks just like 2 rear shocks on the 500E. Except there's a lot less going wrong (and a lot more driving going on) with the S55. Ownership math bears out Klink's observations.
In my generation, the W140 characterized the "dreaded years". I grew up and discovered that was about bio-degradable wire harnesses. Simple enough, and now I can afford to have it fixed.
I just think it's a $40k game, however you decide to play it, if you want to play it right. Whether that's $10k acquisition + $30k M&R, or $30k acquisition + $10k M&R, or somewhere in the middle, is up to you. Knowing that slows me down a bit when I'm tempted by that "that was fun, let's do it again!" feeling.
maw
Out of the park, as always, Sir!
The 140 is a flagrant example of what I'm talking about on every front. And it is the perfect example of what you get when "the engineers" alone are in charge! There are countless friends that I have talked out of buying one, at least untill about '97 ish. YET, The 140 may be my all time favorite MB, and of those it is the '92-'94 that I love the most, arguably the very worst of the worst of the worst!
I have my own reasons for it. The very cultural and zietgiest factors that combined to make it such a disaster also designed into it things that I value far above the disasterishness.
When people try to justify what are emotional decisions on intellectual factors, they are almost always wrong to the point of comedy. A certified pre-owned stripped Honda Civic is a rational choice. I wish the endless armchair critics of innovation would just go get one.
"Man errors so long as he strives." Few expressions sum up these cars better...
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Guys, I wasn't going by heresay or rumors, and my judgement wasn't clouded by "what I couldn't afford", I was only going by what Consumer Reports says AND what these guys say:
http://www.reliabilityindex.com/reliability/search/200
Now, for a point of reference:
http://www.reliabilityindex.com/reliability/search/402
This is an outfit that offers and covers extended warranties on cars in Great Britan. These results are quite telling because they are based on claims, not owner surveys, which some folks feel might not be truly representive of a car's reliability record.
I'm not trying to open a can of worms, or be argumentitive, I'm just wanting to show how I came to the conclusions I did, and that I don't do such things lightly, or by relying on other's heresay, but rather instead by doing my own research. I'm not the average person.
And yes, there is way more to our cars than just their reliability record. However, for me, reliability HAS to be a factor. I simply have no choice! I simply MUST have a LEAST A CAR OR TWO in my life that is/are reliable.
http://www.reliabilityindex.com/reliability/search/200
Now, for a point of reference:
http://www.reliabilityindex.com/reliability/search/402
This is an outfit that offers and covers extended warranties on cars in Great Britan. These results are quite telling because they are based on claims, not owner surveys, which some folks feel might not be truly representive of a car's reliability record.
I'm not trying to open a can of worms, or be argumentitive, I'm just wanting to show how I came to the conclusions I did, and that I don't do such things lightly, or by relying on other's heresay, but rather instead by doing my own research. I'm not the average person.
And yes, there is way more to our cars than just their reliability record. However, for me, reliability HAS to be a factor. I simply have no choice! I simply MUST have a LEAST A CAR OR TWO in my life that is/are reliable.
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Understood totally. But IMO, Consumer Reports' judgment is clouded by what "the average person" cannot afford. I used to be a devotee of that magazine, but as I got older their "lifestyle bias" started... well... disagreeing with my experience, let's say.
And my experience is biased -- I'm not considering any stripped down Honda Civics.
maw
And my experience is biased -- I'm not considering any stripped down Honda Civics.
maw
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Oh please! You know how to keep just about any car "reliable"!
Make no mistake, nobody's busting your balls about it, least of all me. One of the reasons I did that on your quote is I knew you'd relate to it. To your point though, I cannot imagine anything with the word "consumer" in it not finding any European car to be complete unadulterated garbage. These people despised and very poorly rated every Mercedes-Benz any enthusiast with "common knowledge" considers fantastic, and yes I do realize that just above I called many of those people idiots too.
I'm sure that the consumerists would agree with my choice of the stripped certified preowned Honda Civic man's crowning automotive achievement...
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Indeed. Way off-topic....but in a good way. More noticeable, however, is the complete silence on the part of the OP [crickets chirping].
My bad, Fellas. I thought about that when I noticed what the thread started off talking about.
My last productive comment was, if you want more performance out of a Mercedes M119 "with a blower", then that would be a M113 with a blower.
Now, back to our regularly scheduled programming.
maw
.
Is it a chain yank when it's true...........
It CAN be ... But in most cases is not.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
.
Is it a chain yank when it's true...........
Well, Honcho is the ultimate arbiter, but IMHO, the main deciding question is "Has the chain been yanked, and if it has, was it yanked with adequate force?"
Dude!! Don't do that! We're just a bunch of hardheads talking about old cars. In the grand scheme of things this means absolutely zilch! As a good friend of mine says just before he makes a statement that he knows is going to absolutely levitate you with anger, "Now don't get hot..."
I have to say it was enough of a yank that the correct button was pressed.
A favorite movie quote of mine is: power perceived is power achieved
Guys, please forgive me, but this is mildly on topic:
All those looking for speed out of any W124 chassis car (and given our discussions this morning) MUST see this... http://mbworld.org/articles/cl65-amg-taken-limit-half-mile/
maw
All those looking for speed out of any W124 chassis car (and given our discussions this morning) MUST see this... http://mbworld.org/articles/cl65-amg-taken-limit-half-mile/
maw
I was only joking above. Since I know Eric, sometimes I feel entitled to give him a little shit now and then. I didn't mean to start a fire here. I haven't even the entire thread to know if he was the one who started veering the thread off topic, but I do know he couldn't be the only guilty party here. As they say, it take two (or more) to tango. Look, I'm doing it myself in this very post! If we all truly want to keep every thread on topic we should just ignore posts that don't pertain to the original topic all together.
To be honest though, some of the best and most informative threads on this site are those that have been peeled off or, or are even still stuck to a completely unrelated thread. That's where the real thinking starts, when even though a post has nothing to do with the original topic, its compelling enough for you to reply anyway. Eric's been a great contributor to this site with ideas that have indeed progressed the way we think of modding M119's. Sure, he may be persistent to the point of annoyance for some folks, and sometimes may even be downright wrong. But aren't we all entitled to be wrong occasionally? He's not a total ass, and I don't think I've ever seen him be plain rude to anyone on here. If we are happy to see a contributing member go because his ideas are not shared with ourselves, that's pretty sad methinks.
That being said, I do see the point about folks getting enough of the "MB shouldve done this" or "why didnt they add xx, when Volvo had it for years" posts. Maybe you could just kinda cut back on those posts a little bud? I think that would go a long way towards calming down the honcho.
To be honest though, some of the best and most informative threads on this site are those that have been peeled off or, or are even still stuck to a completely unrelated thread. That's where the real thinking starts, when even though a post has nothing to do with the original topic, its compelling enough for you to reply anyway. Eric's been a great contributor to this site with ideas that have indeed progressed the way we think of modding M119's. Sure, he may be persistent to the point of annoyance for some folks, and sometimes may even be downright wrong. But aren't we all entitled to be wrong occasionally? He's not a total ass, and I don't think I've ever seen him be plain rude to anyone on here. If we are happy to see a contributing member go because his ideas are not shared with ourselves, that's pretty sad methinks.
That being said, I do see the point about folks getting enough of the "MB shouldve done this" or "why didnt they add xx, when Volvo had it for years" posts. Maybe you could just kinda cut back on those posts a little bud? I think that would go a long way towards calming down the honcho.
Most of the Volvo posts (except for the current FCP thread) were collected and put in a separate "Volvo" thread, if only to keep them from polluting other, good MB-related threads. It's gotten to the point where I've personally had to put several people on my "ignore" list because I just can't stomach reading their stuff, and the continuing "Volvo did this and does it great, and MB totally sucks" stuff finally just pushed me over the edge. A little bit of that is just fine, and I welcome it when it's actually done constructively. I've seen such comparos with BMW and Audi stuff before and that's fine - I am not prejudiced against Volvos (the only cars I'm prejudiced against are Chevy Volts and Toy-ota Priii, and to some degree Subarus). I'm not going to ban anyone over it, but a little of that sort of stuff here goes a long way toward angering many people. And for every person who expresses desires publicly (or several who have mentioned it to me privately) about not liking the 'Volvo rules/MB sucks' posts, there are certainly many others here who feel the same way but don't bother to say anything about it. 400Eric was right in the thick of those 'Volvo rules / MB drools' posts.
400Eric is welcome to come back anytime, but he is going to remain on my ignore list if he does because I just don't like what he has to say a lot of the time. I know others do like it, and that's fine. That's why the forum has an "ignore" function. Folks are welcome to ignore me and my rantings/drivel as well.
+1
Not a chance, it's like Howard Stern, I can't wait to see what you say next.
Oy ... I dunno if that's good or bad
I like my Renn Tech back box too. I do not have a complete system just the back box with a Magnaflow resonator in front of it.
I like the sound but it does have a drone between 35 & 55 mph under certain conditions.
BTW, I hate Volvos too.
Nobody here with the exception of a couple of guys gives a s&%t about Volvos.
Take it over to the Volvo site with the rest of the boring dialogue. This is my only $0.02 on this matter.
This is an MB site lets keep on our own topics.
Take Care
I like the sound but it does have a drone between 35 & 55 mph under certain conditions.
BTW, I hate Volvos too.
Nobody here with the exception of a couple of guys gives a s&%t about Volvos.
Take it over to the Volvo site with the rest of the boring dialogue. This is my only $0.02 on this matter.
This is an MB site lets keep on our own topics.
Take Care
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Man I leave to do some work and all these posts of positive and negatives of power gains/losses..
how about this...
We are designing an exhaust for this car which is my version of it..
I will stop stating power gains instead I will update this posts of the progression of my project. And let you the consumer decide if it's something that works for you.
This is not a speedy project because everything is 100% custom all the way down to the muffler internal baffles so please be patient. Everything is being designed and tested nothing is off the shelf products that's being "hacked" to fit.
With that said..
To date we have fitted a 500e with a dummy system to make sure pipe diameter size bends and muffler can dimensions fit with out causing any type of interference to the body, subframe, diff etc.
turndown version and tipped version has been finalized.
from here templates/punch cards will be made for all bent pipes, muffler canister design etc. this will be utilized to make a jig. The jig ensures accurate replication from unit 1-1000. This is not a low budget operation here it's a huge investment on my part and I don't even own a 500e.
Just to share here is the tipped version we will be offering so you have an idea of what it looks like on the car. The muffler can is tucked up as high as we can go which sits higher than the old sebring/brabus cans, even the remus backbox.
how about this...
We are designing an exhaust for this car which is my version of it..
I will stop stating power gains instead I will update this posts of the progression of my project. And let you the consumer decide if it's something that works for you.
This is not a speedy project because everything is 100% custom all the way down to the muffler internal baffles so please be patient. Everything is being designed and tested nothing is off the shelf products that's being "hacked" to fit.
With that said..
To date we have fitted a 500e with a dummy system to make sure pipe diameter size bends and muffler can dimensions fit with out causing any type of interference to the body, subframe, diff etc.
turndown version and tipped version has been finalized.
from here templates/punch cards will be made for all bent pipes, muffler canister design etc. this will be utilized to make a jig. The jig ensures accurate replication from unit 1-1000. This is not a low budget operation here it's a huge investment on my part and I don't even own a 500e.
Just to share here is the tipped version we will be offering so you have an idea of what it looks like on the car. The muffler can is tucked up as high as we can go which sits higher than the old sebring/brabus cans, even the remus backbox.
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Expect a launch date of February 2015 I currently have other projects alongside this one, this 500e project is not really a high priority due to the very limited market that exists.
the exhaust will work on 400e models but to make things clear the focus for performance and design is based on the 500e we have at the shop.
cat back version will be released first, the race version (cat less and revised y pipe) will probably be fall of 2015 release date.
again updates from me will most likely happen monthly and not daily since there is more design work needed to be done on paper.
next steps is to isolate sound and minimize drone, from there we play with actual power that can be extracted based on sound levels. The priority is to get the correct sound out of the car at this point.
bye for now
the exhaust will work on 400e models but to make things clear the focus for performance and design is based on the 500e we have at the shop.
cat back version will be released first, the race version (cat less and revised y pipe) will probably be fall of 2015 release date.
again updates from me will most likely happen monthly and not daily since there is more design work needed to be done on paper.
next steps is to isolate sound and minimize drone, from there we play with actual power that can be extracted based on sound levels. The priority is to get the correct sound out of the car at this point.
bye for now
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I have always said that if there are measurable power gains (and perhaps for some folks, cosmetic looks) to this mod, then you will have people lining up around the block to buy your system. It's going to have to be backed up by "before and after" dyno sheets with all other things being the same (same car, config, dyno, etc.).
I wish you the best for a successful project, though I remain an abject skeptic that significant, measurable power/torque gains will be obtained. I also do think it's admirable that you are pursuing the project on behalf of the community. In the past, I've done several detailed, re-engineered reproduction parts for the 300SEL 6.3 market for stuff that was NLA from MB, and I do know how much care/time/up-front $$$ investment goes into doing a project the "right" way, for a very limited market and no profit. So I wish you continued good luck.
Cheers,
Gerry
I wish you the best for a successful project, though I remain an abject skeptic that significant, measurable power/torque gains will be obtained. I also do think it's admirable that you are pursuing the project on behalf of the community. In the past, I've done several detailed, re-engineered reproduction parts for the 300SEL 6.3 market for stuff that was NLA from MB, and I do know how much care/time/up-front $$$ investment goes into doing a project the "right" way, for a very limited market and no profit. So I wish you continued good luck.
Cheers,
Gerry
At this time I can't share pictures of undercar shots because we actually have not finalized flange location and are experimenting with pipe diameters more will be known once we make a few test units. When a running prototype is built then I can share how the muffler will look under the car.
what was built on the car is basically muffler canister shell Left over pipes and scrap material to get dimensions. It's quite crude and simplistic but it's the cheapest way to get exact measurements off a car.
what was built on the car is basically muffler canister shell Left over pipes and scrap material to get dimensions. It's quite crude and simplistic but it's the cheapest way to get exact measurements off a car.
I appreciate a critical thinker not afraid to constructively criticize the unattractive parts of an MB.
5thcalracer, count me in, pen in hand and check book in the other.
When will the next batch be available? Can you make onezee twozees?
I am working on a body kit which includes minor changes to the rear bumper.
Would love to incorporate a design around the tail pipes before I make the first mold.
Keep me in the loop.
5thcalracer, count me in, pen in hand and check book in the other.
When will the next batch be available? Can you make onezee twozees?
I am working on a body kit which includes minor changes to the rear bumper.
Would love to incorporate a design around the tail pipes before I make the first mold.
Keep me in the loop.
Extremely nice work. It would have been nice if the 500e would have been engineered with a higher performance exhaust.
Production has not begun..
At this stage the fitted dummy exhaust has been removed we are currently in the setup stage right now.
- Fitment Jigs are being made
- Punch Cards are being created for the mandrel bender so an automated bender will be able to reproduce each pipe consistently.
- Flanges are being laser cut
- Tips are being cut/polished
- Muffler canisters are being Laser cut then assembled
- Internal muffler packing material has been ordered (these are sourced from Germany) the same stuff used by the leading Tuners in Europe. We don't use fiberglass packing that is commonly found on US domestic exhausts.
So right now it's all prep work at the moment which is the longest part of development.
From here we will build a couple of test units to get the correct sound then alter construction to tailor power delivery (manipulate back pressure).
Once we finalize a design then we will move forward with production all purchases will be sold through Matt @ Leistung he has been appointed master distributor for all of my products. This allows me to focus more on development and production, he will handle sales/installation side of things.
These will be done in production run increments of 10 at a time. Initial production will be 20 units (10 turndown, 10 tipped) I am anticipating 5-7 kits being sold so selling all 20 will take a while.
You'll definitely sell units to folks who appreciate the bling of a "pretty" and well-made exhaust system.
If the exhaust improves on the factory engineering (as Stevester says is a "higher performance exhaust") and is dyno-tested at 20+ HP gains (before and after dyno sheets, same car), it's going to be the E500E equivalent of the iPhone 6 waiting line at the local mall, outside of Leistung, from folks who want to get their hands on these...
Good luck!
Cheers,
Gerry
If the exhaust improves on the factory engineering (as Stevester says is a "higher performance exhaust") and is dyno-tested at 20+ HP gains (before and after dyno sheets, same car), it's going to be the E500E equivalent of the iPhone 6 waiting line at the local mall, outside of Leistung, from folks who want to get their hands on these...
Good luck!
Cheers,
Gerry
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