Camber WAY off - front and rear

[E_S]

Had my car at the dealership after replacing all suspension parts recently to have a 4-wheel alignment performed.

They adjusted and it is quite okay, but I have a question regarding camber angle:

Camber is WAY off at -2 and -2 degrees 42' rear, -2 and -1 degree 48' rear. This looks stupid and will wear out the tires prematurely.

AMG specifications state -0 degrees 50' front and -1 degree 45' rear permissible.

What can be done about the camber values? The car is not lowered and just sitting a tad lower than a regular Sportline suspension.

 

[gsxr]

Is this a 500E or something else? What specific chassis, and what modifications are done if any?

Rear camber at -2° is about normal for a 500E. It varies with ride height and is non-adjustable. What is your front camber measurements? Your post mentions rear twice...

 

[E_S]

It's an E36 AMG. AMG suspension, which is basically the same as non-500 W124 Sportline cars. Sorry, typing error!

-2 degrees 24' and -2 degrees 42' rear, -2 degrees 00' and -1 degree 48' front.

I know the rear is non-adjustable, but the front should be better?

Caster specs is 10 degrees 40' front, where I have 11 degrees 33' and 9 degrees 54'.

Toe is within specs.

Should I complain, or is this "as good as it gets" when it's a bit lower than standard Sportline?

 

[gsxr]

Your front camber seems abnormally negative. Do you have OE/OEM strut mounts, or aftermarket? Same question for front LCA's. Something is fishy up front, especially if the car is not drastically lowered.

I suspect the rear may be correct for the ride height, per attached PDF up to -2° 15' is 'normal' for AMG suspension on a 124 with SLS; and if your car is a bit lower, it could easily be a half-degree more negative in the rear. Which is right where your rear is at. If you experience rear tire wear on the inside edges of the tires, you'll need some sort of camber correction to increase tire life.

For grins - what is your ride height in inches, measured from wheel center to fender lip as shown below? Front & rear, and how much fuel in the tank when measured?

 

[E_S]

Thank you!

I measured the following height from wheel center to fender lip:
Right front: 347 mm = 13.66"
Left front: 349 mm = 13.74"
Right rear: 360 mm = 14.17"
Left rear: 358 mm = 14.09"

All front suspension parts are OEM parts and new. Lemförder upper strut mounts, TRW LCAs, Bilstein B8 shocks.

To me, it seems like the dealership didn't know at all about the function of the eccentric bolts to adjust the alignment, but just did the toe. The before- and after-values of camber and caster are almost the same on the alignment sheet..

 

[gsxr]

Rear ride height looks ok, front is a bit on the low side but within reason. I'm a little nervous about those "TRW" front LCA's, your E36 should use the late style with non-replaceable ball joints, and TRW was selling repackaged Febi last I checked. It's a long shot, but after ruling out everything else, I'd suspect the aftermarket LCA's are suspect. Another possibility is a bent frame/chassis but it's VERY unlikely to be evenly bent on both sides, I don't think that's what you are dealing with here. Front camber should adjust to -1.0° or less with all new/good parts at your current ride height.

You can tell if the camber bolts eccentric adjustment is maxed out by looking at the position of the eccentric washers. If you can post a couple of photos of the bolt/washer position, we can figure out if the LCA's are pulled inward as far as possible or not.

 

[E_S]

I will snag a couple pics next time I can, but I confronted the dealership, and it seems I found the reason..

They didn't know that camber and caster was adjustable on the W124 cars and claimed that my car was "very lowered", which it is not.. So the eccentric bolts were left untouched by them, they only adjusted toe. No wonder it's off then..

Well, I complained, awaiting a reply, but I hope they will re-do it properly without any big hassle..

 

[Klink]

I will snag a couple pics next time I can, but I confronted the dealership, and it seems I found the reason..

They didn't know that camber and caster was adjustable on the W124 cars and claimed that my car was "very lowered", which it is not.. So the eccentric bolts were left untouched by them, they only adjusted toe. No wonder it's off then..

Well, I complained, awaiting a reply, but I hope they will re-do it properly without any big hassle..

OK, a sad but true moment here, and I am a dealership employee, but I have to say that if he didn't know about the adjustable eccentric bolts, then the WRONG person was doing the wheel alignment. It is also possible that they do not have a "right" person to do a wheel alignment on a vehicle "this old" in their facility. Some additional inquiring there and possibly elsewhere is likely required to find an appropriately knowledgeable person to do an alignment on one of these older "adjustable" vehicles.

 

[gsxr]

Ugh! What a mess. Well, they were half right... the REAR camber is non-adjustable.

Klink nailed it, if they really thought front camber/caster is non-adjustable, the wrong tech (or, wrong dealership/shop) did the work. Even later MB's have adjustable camber, although via offset grooved bolts instead of eccentrics. I hope they are using a spreader bar when adjusting the front toe...

 

[samiam44]

While every dealership is different...

Here in DFW, from what I've witnessed at Tech days. The fancy machines walk you through the steps. There is a magnetic height adjuster that goes on the front LCA's. Each step is called out via the computer... should be painless.

I asked the techs about the 5 gallon bucket of new bolts. Yea, the new cars don't come with off-set bolts. We install them for $35+ bolts prior to alignment.

My car with aftermarket links/LCA's there was a lot of nevervousness on the dealer to take on the job. I told them exactly where I wanted my rear camber to lie and discussed it with the service advisor, and shop forman + mechanic. Did they get it right? Yes. But there are plier marks on the upper rear adjustable links.....

I hate getting cars aligned!!!


Michael

 

[gsxr]

While every dealership is different...

... the new cars don't come with off-set bolts. We install them for $35+ bolts prior to alignment.

My BIL had their W211 aligned by an aftermarket shop near Beaumont, TX. The shop claimed they do a ton of MB's and could do it right. A year later the tires were shot from uneven wear, so my BIL went to the dealership to get the alignment done properly.

The dealer showed them the alignment was way off front & rear on almost every adjustment (botched by indy shop), and the car needed THREE of the special bolts to adjust front camber/caster. The kicker? The dealer charges $99 PER BOLT with labor for installation (approx $19 for the bolt, MSRP, plus ~$80 labor). Total was near $500 out the door just for an alignment done right. They refused to budge on the $300 charge to install 3 bolts. Gross overcharging, IMO.

 

[gerryvz]

I've had my Eibach-lowered 560SEC aligned at least twice by MB of Houston North here in Houston, and in Portland as well by my former indy shop there.

I agree with Michael that there is expressed nervousness up front with a lowered/modified vehicle. In all three cases (and the indy shop was the one that installed the Eibachs in the first place!) they have said that the alignment settings are right at the edge of spec with the lowered springs. That there is no room for much more adjustment and keep it in spec. Which is fine with me as long as it is relatively within or close to spec.

But the nervousness has always struck me, particularly by the "stealership," because it's almost an automatic reaction when they see a modified car. "Clank" (Clark and/or Klink) can confirm or deny this, but IMHO it's classic "CYA" behavior in case a customer is cranky or things can't actually BE adjusted to/within spec.

Cheers,
Gerry

 

[Klink]

CYA, indeed!
Aftermarket wheels, modified suspensions, etc. Most cars with any or all of these handle like crap, ride like crap, tramline over the pavement like a truffle pig on mescaline, produce more noise vibration and harshness than an aging dominatrix, and shred the tires off the wheels. And somehow people are often imagining that all of this is going to be "corrected" with a "good alignment"

Please note that I said "most" in the second sentence everybody, so don't chime in with all of your personal "exceptions" to what I've said. What I have said up above is true enough often enough that it is the "rule" and yours is indeed "the exception"

 

[gerryvz]

And somehow people are often imagining that all of this is going to be "corrected" with a "good alignment"

Is this the same as, "That'll buff right out!" ?!?

 

[Klink]

Is this the same as, "That'll buff right out!" ?!?

Yep! Along with "ran great when parked, and the AC just needs a recharge"

 

[E_S]

At least I am glad my car is actually 100% stock down to the original thickness spring pads, original springs, original rims and original tire dimension. They can't cover their a** behind "modified car". I wrote them a formal complaint, let's see how this goes from here..

 

[samiam44]

Mine I had the upper links being aftermarket, adjustable links. They had lots of heartburn even though it allowed them to put the rear camber in-spec. They would have rather left it at 2.1-2.2 degrees which is a shredder on 10 inch wheels.
In fact, the Dallas store's head alignment person sent the car home- and *refused* to touch it. Quit credulous.

Michael

 

[E_S]

Got a reply from the dealership. They will re-do it, hopefully this time properly, on Monday, so that is good news.

I'm also thinking about replacing the #1 spring pads front and rear with #2 front and rear to make the car a little higher, as I suspect the original springs are sagging a bit after 21 years. That should bring the car up at 360-365 mm, which I think is the correct Sportline suspension ride height.

 

[E_S]

I changed the spring pads today from #1 to #2. It raised the car 10 mm on each wheel. I suppose this will aid in getting the rear camber within a somewhat reasonable range, as I'm not very keen on having uneven tire wear due to negative camber. I have searched and searched to try to find the specs for factory Sportline height, but haven't found anything. Anyone have any numbers?

 

[gsxr]

The ride height in FSM is measured with a factory tool, not a tape measure... I don't know what the official measurements would be via tape measure.

 

[omegabenz]

Caster specs is 10 degrees 40' front, where I have 11 degrees 33' and 9 degrees 54'.

That seems odd. What happened with the caster?

Did the tech try loosening the eccentric bolts driving it on and off the drive on lift, then retighten? If you have new bushings and everything was tightened with the suspension at max down travel, then maybe that would contribute to a weird alignment as the bushings are binding up...?

 

[E_S]

I don't know, but let's see how the alignment tomorrow turns out. Caster is slightly adjustable with the eccentric bolts. I replaced all the suspension components myself and took great care not to tighten anything before the vehicle was sitting on its own wheels and not up in the air. Isn't all alignment done with the vehicle on the wheels, sitting on special plates that allow the wheels to move? That's at least what I learned many years ago..

Measurements now are 370/372 mm ride height front and 373/375 mm ride height rear. Seems like the #2 pads lifted the car slightly more than 10 mm, but that is fine. It looks "right" now, not "low". It seems to be quite close to factory Sportline height with new springs etc..