Camshaft oil seal leak

[Tonski]

Hello All,

I am from The Netherlands and new to this forum, I own a 400E from '92 with 130.000 km on the clock.
First I would like to thank you all for sharing all the knowledge here as it has been a great help for me in fixing issues with my car.

Unfortunately I have an oil seal leak as shown on the pics I will upload.

Today we replaced the fourth seal within a year and I don't expect this one to hold the oil either.

I am afraid this is going to be a very expensive repair, but am hoping someone from the forum might have a solution for me.

Thanks
Ton

 

[gerryvz]

Wow! Two new Dutchies on the forum in two days!





If you are replacing the seal so frequently, it seems that perhaps you are not installing it correctly so that it leaks again immediately.

First of all, make sure you are using the MB factory seal, and NOT an aftermarket seal. The only exception I would make to this would be that an Elring (ElringKlinger) seal would be OK to use.

Second of all, are you using the correct MB seal installation tool? It requires a special tool to properly press the seal into place.

Third, are you sure that the sealing area where the seal presses into isn't damaged in any way, so that it is providing a tight seal? Has the area where the seal presses in been spotlessly cleaned before the new seal is installed? Did you lubricate the seal slightly at the inner and outer sealing edges?

Please see the attached document from MB that details the process.

Cheers,
Gerry

 

[Tonski]

Hi Gerry,

Thank you for your reply. To be honest we pretty much exactly replaced the seal as per the attachment, and we used the original MB seal as well.

We did not have the special tool to our disposal, but used something similar to make sure it was installed correct.

Also I get the impression that the oil is leaking from de inner side of the seal rather than the outside.

The tip of the camshaft does feel smooth as well..... Running out of option now.

cheers
Ton

 

[gsxr]

Most likely it's either the seal is not installed evenly in the bore, or the camshaft sprocket hub surface (where the seal rides) has a groove.

Less likely is the head cover not seated exactly flush against the head, I can't imagine how that could happen though. My money is on the sprocket surface damaging the new seals.

 

[Tonski]

Hello gsxr,


Replacing the oil seal is not helping the surface that is true, but it is very difficult to find out if the surface is damaged.


Did I did see it correct on the pdf that gerry posted that the oil seal needs to be pushed in 5mm? Cause right now it is pushed in equal to the outside of the bore.

 

[gsxr]

Did I did see it correct on the pdf that gerry posted that the oil seal needs to be pushed in 5mm? Cause right now it is pushed in equal to the outside of the bore.

The factory PDF shows 5mm but that is not correct, or at least it does not match the original seal install depth. When I replaced these seals, I compared several different M119 engines with original seals, and they were all 2mm (or 3mm?) deep, NOT 5mm. I believe this is an error in the manual.

 

[gerryvz]

It may well be that the manual assumes that a seal install is a replacement, and that the seal depth should be different than original/factory depth so that the inside sealing surface is in a different place on the cam than it was originally. On crankshaft front and rear main seals, "repair" sizes of the seals are available that -- while sitting at the same depth position -- place the actual sealing surface at an offset location on the crank's rotating surface, in case a groove or other wear surface is on the crank.

My sense is that the manual directs a slightly different location for the sealing surface on the camshaft by varying slightly the depth of the seal install itself, because no "repair" seal exists for the M119 camshaft seals.

My two cents.

Cheers,
Gerry

 

[gsxr]

This may be correct, Gerry. From memory, a 5mm depth on this seal would push it awfully far inward. I would need to look again. There is usually minimal wear at this location, the seals I installed (which were not leaking, just a proactive replacement) have been fine in the original position.

The crank seal location is a separate, very interesting can of worms. I recently discovered something there as well which I'm not real happy about, but I don't want to hijack this thread with that bunny trail.

 

[Tonski]

Although the 5mm looks pretty deep to me as well, I guess that special tool that is mentioned in the pdf will most likely push it in to a predefined depth (5mm) don't you think?

Then again if this seal does not hold either I will just go for it and see what happens

 

[Tonski]

I will check the current oil seal later this week and give an update.

Cheers,
Ton

 

[Tonski]

Just checked to see if there was still a leak, and unfortunately the new seal is also leaking. Guess a visit to the local MB garage is in the planning.

gsxr, you said you didn't want to hijack this thread, but you have made me curious now, so if you want please open that can of worms.

Cheers
Ton

 

[gsxr]

gsxr, you said you didn't want to hijack this thread, but you have made me curious now, so if you want please open that can of worms.

I recently noticed that the front crankshaft seal comes from the factory partially set inward, by approx 1.5mm. I've found this on several different motors which appear to have original seals, so I'm assuming this was the factory installation position. The problem is, when installing a new seal, the tool will only set the seal either flush, or inset 3mm. That means the new seal will be ±1.5mm from the old seal, which I don't think is quite adequate to move the new seal to a completely fresh area on the hub. For the last seal I did, I installed it ~3mm out from factory, which is ~1.5mm out from flush. It's not easy to do this as the tools weren't designed for it. So far, this has worked well, it's 100% dry. I plan to do the same on the next one too.

 

[samiam44]

Dave,

Did you ever have a replaced front seal leak- in any position? I don't think a minor bit of wear will cause leakage with a new seal- if it's smooth. Front sealing surfaces can get really nasty with oil/dirt/sand grinding the hub up. Too bad the hub isn't $75 new instead of $475.
On mine it's a M117 part number, perhaps they would be easier to pull out via pick'n'pull on a 560?

Michael

 

[gsxr]

Michael, I've not had a replaced front crankshaft seal leak significantly, but I've seen at least one that was recently replaced (not by me) appear to be weeping, when it shouldn't be. I still think 1.5mm is not enough distance on the hub, and the hub almost always have a groove deep enough to catch your fingernail, even after cleaning it up. I've been using Scotch-Brite pads to clean the surface, btw. The last one I did at 3mm out [from the old/original position] seems to be perfect so far.

A previous one I did on our now-wrecked E420 was set at the 'normal' 1.5mm out [from original position, flush with the cover] and was dry until it got wrecked. That one was a late 1995 motor with the integrated hub+balancer, different setup than the early type with M117 hub. A third new seal on my spare '93 motor seems to be weeping also, but it's very hard to see without tearing apart the whole front of the motor.

 

[gerryvz]

Crankshaft and camshaft seals are different. Remember that both front and rear crank seals have "repair" versions available from MB (or sometimes, on the aftermarket) which offer several mm of offset for the sealing surface, while the seal itself is pressed into the same position.

No such "repair" size pony exists for the 119 camshaft seal.

GSXR should be replacing a front crank seal on an M104 soon enough, so he ought to have more direct information and more experience on this

 

[Tonski]

Hi All,

So I have been to 2 mercedes dealers/garages and they looked at me as if I they saw water burning when asking them about the special tool to press the oilseal in for 5mm.

No luck there so now I have pressed it in myself (with a hard plastic tube that has the right diameter) and hope this will do the trick. Will check again in a week to see if the leak is gone.

 

[Tonski]

Hi All,

I was hoping to give you an update on the oil leak, but it turned out that my car has been at the garage for almost 2 weeks.

Reason for this is the fact that there is a lot of noise coming from the back of the car and after inspection is seems that the differential is making that noise. I am not sure what to do now, fix it or sell the car.... And when fixing it am I buying a second hand one or have it revised....?

Am actually a bit depressed about it.

 

[M104-AMG]

I priced out the Factory tool (119 589 00 14 00) for the installing the camshaft [not crankshaft as previously posted] seal when the front cover is in place. Not bad @ $100, but it looks like I still need to make a sleeve. Anyone using it ? Dave/Gerry ?

Also, the EPC says for the camshaft seal, I may use 010 997 61 47 OR 018 997 79 47. Make any difference ?

Dave & Tonski - which ones are you using ? Perhaps Tonski is using one version and not having success ?

TIA,
neil

 

[gsxr]

Neil, I used an aftermarket front crank seal installer. And for the camshaft seal, I removed the cover and replaced it on the workbench using an El Cheapo seal driver set.

 

[M104-AMG]

<SNIP> And for the camshaft seal, I removed the cover and replaced it on the workbench using an El Cheapo seal driver set.

I wish the valve-cover gaskets were leaking, but alas they are not. Think the camshaft seal can be replaced without the special tool IF the front cover is still in place ?

neil

 

[gsxr]

I wish the valve-cover gaskets were leaking, but alas they are not. Think the camshaft seal can be replaced without the special tool IF the front cover is still in place ?

With a cam-seal puller tool (Lisle makes one, IIRC)... if you fabricated a sleeve, it should be possible. I've never actually had one of these leak on my cars. The seals I replaced were strictly a "while I was in there" kinda thing...

 

[M104-AMG]

Mercedes Guru friend confirmed using the tool if you won't take-off the valve-cover.

:-( neil

 

[emerydc8]

I priced out the Factory tool (119 589 00 14 00) for the installing the camshaft [not crankshaft as previously posted] seal when the front cover is in place. Not bad @ $100, but it looks like I still need to make a sleeve. Anyone using it ? Dave/Gerry ?

I recently replaced my cam seals without taking off the front covers and found that the special installation tool (first picture below) was not even necessary, although I bought one on ebay for $35.

Once you oil up the cam seal, it slides right over the cam. The challenge, though, is to get the outer part of the seal into the front cover. Mercedes suggests a shop-made tool for this. I found that a copper 1 1/4" to 1" coupling from Ace Hardware fits the seal perfectly. I used three fender washers, which I had to drill out slightly to fit the long 85mm M6 Allen bolt. I glued the washers to the 1" side of the coupling using JB Weld. See pics.

Also, as far as removing the old seals, a regular screw driver tapped into the old seal, so as not to hit the the cover, makes it an easy 30-second job to pry it out.

 

[clarkz71]

Jon's correct, I did several sets of cam seals while at the dealer

We never pulled the front cover.

.

 

[gerryvz]

Are front cam seals leaking a major issue? Jon, did you take photos of the leakage (like has been done with the cam solenoid leakage, which seems to be much more common)?

Thanks for this update.

 

[clarkz71]

Gerry,

I don't think it's a major issue, but I believe with some crankcase pressure it does cause
some "oil misting/residue" on the inside of the dist caps.

My cam solenoids don't leak, yet I had enough oil mist to cause intermittent hard starts
after short trips. When I inspected the caps, it was an oily residue. Not moisture

 

[Klink]

Jon's correct, I did several sets of cam seals while at the dealer. We never pulled the front cover.

Are front cam seals leaking a major issue? Jon, did you take photos of the leakage (like has been done with the cam solenoid leakage, which seems to be much more common)?

Gerry,

I don't think it's a major issue, but I believe with some crankcase pressure it does cause
some "oil misting/residue" on the inside of the dist caps.

My cam solenoids don't leak, yet I had enough oil mist to cause intermittent hard starts
after short trips. When I inspected the caps, it was an oily residue. Not moisture

what Vader said.

Leakage from these seals is almost never encountered on the 119 in my experience, and I've never seen a technician remove the cylinder head front cover to replace the seals during those few times it was an issue. Also note that I think a couple of those few incidences occurred after someone did R+R the cover...

 

[gsxr]

Pure genius, Jon! I gotta swing by the plumbing section of the local Ace Hardware next time I'm in that area...

 

[emerydc8]

This was from my 94. The 95 was bone dry. I have a friend with a 500E and he said his seals were leaking too.

 

[gerryvz]

This is a good thread. I'm just refreshing it a bit for anyone who is interested and/or doing cam seal or cam solenoid replacement in the future. It is good to know that the cam seals CAN be replaced without having to remove the valve covers or the front covers from the cylinder heads.

 

[emerydc8]

I don't even remember posting on this thread, but I guess my 94 was leaking on both sides. It isn't the first time I've stumbled on a post I made of a job I don't even remember doing. A great feature of the forum is that I can refer back to it myself as a how-to if I ever need to do it again.

 

[sheward]

I've been installing seals since i was a young man without two extra quarters using a variation of Jon's method. One can usually match the seal's diameter with the right sized socket and use a bolt and washer where applicable to pull with. Occasionally a deep wall socket my be necessary.

drew

 

[Duh_Vinci]

I recently replaced my cam seals without taking off the front covers and found that the special installation tool (first picture below) was not even necessary, although I bought one on ebay for $35.

Once you oil up the cam seal, it slides right over the cam. The challenge, though, is to get the outer part of the seal into the front cover. Mercedes suggests a shop-made tool for this. I found that a copper 1 1/4" to 1" coupling from Ace Hardware fits the seal perfectly. I used three fender washers, which I had to drill out slightly to fit the long 85mm M6 Allen bolt. I glued the washers to the 1" side of the coupling using JB Weld. See pics.

Also, as far as removing the old seals, a regular screw driver tapped into the old seal, so as not to hit the the cover, makes it an easy 30-second job to pry it out.

...Second of all, are you using the correct MB seal installation tool? It requires a special tool to properly press the seal into place.

Third, are you sure that the sealing area where the seal presses into isn't damaged in any way, so that it is providing a tight seal? Has the area where the seal presses in been spotlessly cleaned before the new seal is installed? Did you lubricate the seal slightly at the inner and outer sealing edges?

Please see the attached document from MB that details the process.

Cheers,
Gerry

Thanks for the visual on the tools and PDF manual, much appreciate it!

Regards,
D

 

[dds28]

Sorry to bring up an old thread. One of my camshaft seals is leaking. Found oil in the distributor cap. I tried to order the factory tool, 119 589 00 14 00, and ended up getting a crankshaft seal tool because I entered one number off (119 589 01 14 00) on my order through MB classic. I tried reordering the correct part and was informed the camshaft seal tool from the factory is no longer available. So I take it the only way is to buy used or fabricate something like what Jon made. Anyone have the tool for sale?

 

[gsxr]

The factory tool 119-589-00-14-00 is an installation aid, not a seal installer. As Jon noted in post #23, this item is mostly useless.

You'll need to fabricate something to press the seal in place if you do not plan to remove the front head covers. Anything similar to what Jon did should suffice. These seals are not particularly difficult to install. Note if you read the FSM PDF carefully, it shows dimensions to fabricate a "shop-made sleeve".

There is a different tool (drift) meant for use with the head cover removed, but that's also not needed - a generic seal installer works fine if you have the head cover on the workbench. And, that drift appears to have been NLA for a very long time.

 

[dds28]

Thanks Dave. I will try to make something like what Jon did. Do you think it’s necessary to JB weld the washers or just have washers stacked in between the bolt and the “tool” ?

 

[gsxr]

Thanks Dave. I will try to make something like what Jon did. Do you think it’s necessary to JB weld the washers or just have washers stacked in between the bolt and the “tool” ?

I think the pressure applied will be fairly light, possibly no need for JB Weld, just washers between the bolt head and sleeve.

Depending on the sleeve you use (or, deep socket?) you might be able to gently tap the seal into place, similar to if the cover were removed.

Disclaimer: I've never replaced this seal with the cover installed, and I've also never had one leak oil.

 

[emerydc8]

Thanks Dave. I will try to make something like what Jon did. Do you think it’s necessary to JB weld the washers or just have washers stacked in between the bolt and the “tool” ?

I used JB Weld on the washers just to keep them centered on the copper fitting. If you just superglued the one washer where it meets the copper fitting it keeps the bolt centered. You could always hold it in the center but I found it easier to glue it.

 

[dds28]

Thank you so much guys for the good advice. Off to the hardware store.

 

[gerryvz]

Reference post as to what I did in pressing in new seals. I think this can also be done while the cover is installed on the engine.

RESTO PROJECT: M119 / W124 / E500 Engine Top-End Refresh | Member Roadtrips and Project Journals

Spent about an hour out in the shop on Sunday -- time was cut short by Laura's family coming over for Mother's Day. So, I limited my time to a few, small operations. First little task was to continue preparation on the red powder-coated valve covers. I added a factory MB yellow sticker on the...

www.500eboard.co

 

[TerryA]

Ive been installing seals since i was a young man without two extra quarters using a variation of Jons method. One can usually match the seals diameter with the right sized socket and use a bolt and washer where applicable to pull with. Occasionally a deep wall socket my be necessary.

drew

+1 w/Drew, I’ve always used whatever works. Mostly sockets, pipe anything that is the correct diameter. I guess we’re “Old School”

 

[jaymanek]

Hi All,

I have been having issues since I decided to replace cam seals out of preventative maintenance on both my black & silver 500's.

In retrospect, that was a DUMB idea since they were perfectly fine!

Note that i have had no issues on the 500TE in 6000 miles, for which i replaced these seals when the engine was apart.

Today has been my third attempt on the Silver 500E and im on 2nd attempt on my black 500.

I have made several tools, from a combination of multi point sockets, tubes, spacers, nuts, bolts and washers!

Challenges i faced initially, were to push the seal on without the seal inverting as i pushed on it. Then it seemed no matter how central my tool was, the seal would not go in evenly... and when i was happy that it was sitting even, it was pushed far too much.
I would say that 5mm is way too much.

Today I have set it to what i think the original seal was set at... 1.5-2mm at most.

I also am on the 60th or so iteration of my special tool!

Praying it works, as its really irritating to keep getting stuck in traffic.... The car backfiring raises some eyebrows.

The deeper socket with the shallow socket inserted & wrapped in tape to keep it central, pushes the seal on without inverting... This pushes the seal just onto the camshaft.

Then the shallower chrome socket with the spacers inside are for centralisation. This tool pushes the seal home. I set this so i cannot push further than approx 2mm inwards.

Crude, but i cant see why it wouldnt have worked.

 

[gsxr]

Thanks for the info & photos, Jay! Just curious, what brand seals have you been using? I'm surprised this procedure has been so difficult.

 

[jaymanek]

Hi Buddy,

Only genuine seals have been used….

 

[gerryvz]

You may want to just remove the front covers and do the seal replacement with the covers off the car. Very very easy to do and you can change the timing chain rails when you remove the covers.

See my M119 top end job thread and you’ll see how I did this seal replacement job two years ago. Zero problems since.

 

[jaymanek]

Hi All,

All seems to be ok now. I have been driving every day for almost 10 days... no issues so far.

 

[Ian White]

How did you remove the old seals from the bores?

 

[gerryvz]

How did you remove the old seals from the bores?

People have documented how they did this, both with the covers on and off the engine, in various threads here on the forum.

 

[Ian White]

I apparently am search challenges. Sigh.

 

[TerryA]

@Ian White,
Ian, just type in cam seals in the search box.
Easy Peazy