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Compressing springs. Need pep talk
- Thread starter Kyiv
- Start date
@kiev ...
So I realize that I have no old springs left in the house, forgot that I did get rid of all the old stuff. So this is the best I can do... "virtual" compressing. And from what I recall, on the front, I also had to use the medium length extension to reach inside once the spring begins to compress...
So I realize that I have no old springs left in the house, forgot that I did get rid of all the old stuff. So this is the best I can do... "virtual" compressing. And from what I recall, on the front, I also had to use the medium length extension to reach inside once the spring begins to compress...
Cool. You do you. I’m here to learn, not criticize!Just something to consider ... the energy stored in a spring is not linear wrt it’s compression. The energy stored in a spring is proportional to the SQUARE of the amount of compression. At 80% decompression, there may still be a lot of energy stored in a spring.
View attachment 101573
The spring cant travel anywhere. Even if the spring wants to burst outward instead of downward it cant. As the jack is slowly being lowered theres less resistance from the bottom of the spring. The spring will push in the direction it can and in this case thats downward because nothing is resisting it. You are releasing the pressure for it. Remember, when the car is raised on floor jacks and the wheels are in the air, the suspension travels down already decompressing the spring significantly. All you need is another few inches to get into the safe zone. Take apart a pen and grab the tiny spring from inside of it and put it between your fingers. Keep one finger stiff in place and move the other one down, pay attention how the spring is behaving. Play with it and itll be clear. Its basically the same principle.
When you are compressing the spring, you are pulling it out into open space out of whats holding it in and on top of that you are compressing it probably more than it ever gets compressed on the car. You are fawked if anything goes wrong with your tool especially using cheap ebay stuff.
Again, im not advising you to do any of this. It just seems you are already having a really hard time and are risking getting injured just as much.
All I can say, is that I would rather use a tool designed for the job (even if it's not quite up to the qualitiy of the factory MB tool) to compress a front spring, than to use a floor jack for the task. There's MUCH more danger from using a floor jack.
To each their own, but if someone gets injured from carelessness, ignorance, or not using the correct tool for the job -- it is NOT the position nor the fault of this forum to encourage these things.
This forum ALWAYS strongly recommends using the factory or quality aftermarket alternative tools for all jobs, and using the factory service manual as a guide for all jobs. A floor jack is NOT a quality aftermarket alternative for compressing or decompressing a front spring on a W124 Mercedes-Benz.
To each their own, but if someone gets injured from carelessness, ignorance, or not using the correct tool for the job -- it is NOT the position nor the fault of this forum to encourage these things.
This forum ALWAYS strongly recommends using the factory or quality aftermarket alternative tools for all jobs, and using the factory service manual as a guide for all jobs. A floor jack is NOT a quality aftermarket alternative for compressing or decompressing a front spring on a W124 Mercedes-Benz.
As already stated by other members the arc of the control arms, such as the front control arms means that as you lower the arm beyond its normal travel the spring begins to bow out and buckle. It them becomes a lethal projectile as the bottom coil breaks free from the perch. Be VERY careful out there. The lower arm can be lowered on the rear of the w124 to release the smaller springs. But the front springs must be compressed to remove correctly and safely on a w124. No exceptions.
The reason why these internal spring compressors CAN skip is a slightly crap design. Think about those nice big thick steel FLAT plates. With a limited grove cut into them. They are designed to cater for a wide range of spring sizes. When you fit these to most all springs therefore there is an imperfect fit. The plates do not make full and even contact with the coils they are compressing nor do all 3x locking lugs have equal even pressure. As you compress the spring the plates find a spot and the spring starts to compress.
As you increase the load and compress more the plates can suddenly jump or skip a coil. This has happened to me several times using these compressors correctly. The coils clocking and axis changes and this force causes the imperfect plate fitment to falter for just a split second. This is my understanding based on using these tools more than I care too. W124 springs are generally OK but these compressors are borderline dangerous on w140 big coil springs.
If you want a less ideal but much safer setup just use a pair of regular external spring compressors!! The internal jobbie is not 100% essential. It should be faster and more convenient but seriously - the design of the plates is a little crap. There should be more arc / depth in them. Regular spring compressors do get a positive grip that wont let go. I might glue anti slip tool roll into my compressor cups for the next use and see if that prevents the skipping. That and improving the depth of the lug on the central shaft as that has also failed before.
Regular and IMO safer spring compressors-
Yes these do work on a w124 I used them successfully for years prior to getting an internal compressor. They are tricker to setup but it can be done. The internal compressor is simply quicker to setup and use.
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So I have tried several times now. I'm starting to lean towards the tool being the problem and not the operator
I definitely install plates correctly and 3- point interlocks on top definitely engage
Scenario #1
Turning bolt, compressor almost right away bites and starts compressing spring from the bottom and from the top. 1/3 to 1/2 way in - BOOOM - full decompression
Scenario #2
Turning bolt, compressor almost right away bites and starts compressing spring, but then, very quickly, each additional spring compression decompresses right after ratchet turn, so that compressor still contacts, but skips compressing the spring itself
Scenario #3
Compressor contacts but does not compress spring until compressor's bolt is well into the control arm. At that point it only compresses spring from the bottom and not from the top
*Each scenario happens "randomly". That is I can't see a pattern rear determines which one will play out....
====
I'm just going to take it to my indie, return my eBay tool purchase and call it a defeat. Disappointing, as I wanted to learn doing this job myself
* I used my phone to see whether the top 3-point interlock engaged and it does, every time
I definitely install plates correctly and 3- point interlocks on top definitely engage
Scenario #1
Turning bolt, compressor almost right away bites and starts compressing spring from the bottom and from the top. 1/3 to 1/2 way in - BOOOM - full decompression
Scenario #2
Turning bolt, compressor almost right away bites and starts compressing spring, but then, very quickly, each additional spring compression decompresses right after ratchet turn, so that compressor still contacts, but skips compressing the spring itself
Scenario #3
Compressor contacts but does not compress spring until compressor's bolt is well into the control arm. At that point it only compresses spring from the bottom and not from the top
*Each scenario happens "randomly". That is I can't see a pattern rear determines which one will play out....
====
I'm just going to take it to my indie, return my eBay tool purchase and call it a defeat. Disappointing, as I wanted to learn doing this job myself
* I used my phone to see whether the top 3-point interlock engaged and it does, every time
You are more than welcome to borrow my compressor, my travel/availability is rather limited due to the work schedule. I'm going to be in Garrisonville/Aquia, exit 143 tomorrow for work. Can meet you around 4pm if that works for you... then I have to be in Frederickbsurg at the MB dealership before 5pm... I can meet you again to pick it up at Aquia again on Thursday to save to the extra miles.
Regards,
D
Regards,
D
Three points worth keeping in mind as you use an internal compressor for the front springs:
—the plates should be initially rotated in place to the highest practical point i.e. 6-8 coils apart;
—Obviously the center shaft needs to be absolutely correctly and solidly locked in place when you start tightening it, and it MUST BE frequently checked carefully as you tighten to ensure it hasn’t rotated and disengaged;
—And as importantly, the upper and lower flat surfaces of the plates must be as close to parallel (i.e. perpendicular to the shaft) as you tighten them down. The way to ensure this is to just tighten the shaft until the play is just gone, then back off slightly so there is again slight play and jiggle /rotate the plates so the play is at a max. Now again slightly tighten the shaft, again loosen slightly and rotate the plates for max play, and keep doing this (2-3 times) until rotation of either/both plates produces no additional play. At that point the plates are in their ideal safest position i.e. parallel to each other and perpendicular to the shaft, and entirely safe to fully tighten.
As mentioned above, do take advantage of an uninstalled one to perfect your understanding/technique...
And stay safe, in more ways than one...
—the plates should be initially rotated in place to the highest practical point i.e. 6-8 coils apart;
—Obviously the center shaft needs to be absolutely correctly and solidly locked in place when you start tightening it, and it MUST BE frequently checked carefully as you tighten to ensure it hasn’t rotated and disengaged;
—And as importantly, the upper and lower flat surfaces of the plates must be as close to parallel (i.e. perpendicular to the shaft) as you tighten them down. The way to ensure this is to just tighten the shaft until the play is just gone, then back off slightly so there is again slight play and jiggle /rotate the plates so the play is at a max. Now again slightly tighten the shaft, again loosen slightly and rotate the plates for max play, and keep doing this (2-3 times) until rotation of either/both plates produces no additional play. At that point the plates are in their ideal safest position i.e. parallel to each other and perpendicular to the shaft, and entirely safe to fully tighten.
As mentioned above, do take advantage of an uninstalled one to perfect your understanding/technique...
And stay safe, in more ways than one...
Joe, I've had baaaad experiences with these external compressors. For one, I've had them slip around during compression, so both are next to each other! One just started slipping and BAM it was on the otherside. This was 15+ years ago on a VW spring, not a W124.
Also, if you don't get industrial-grade versions, the shafts can bend... be careful if attempting to use these external versions!!
Photos are from 2004 or 2005...
Let's, preliminary, try. I'll send you a PM around 1 pm if I can make it. I should be, but just in case. Thanks!
TXT me arond 1 pm, 540-845-6615, and if you are going to make it, bring a spring with you and the ratchet for the demo ...
Joe, I've had baaaad experiences with these external compressors. For one, I've had them slip around during compression, so both are next to each other! One just started slipping and BAM it was on the otherside. This was 15+ years ago on a VW spring, not a W124.
Also, if you don't get industrial-grade versions, the shafts can bend... be careful if attempting to use these external versions!!
Photos are from 2004 or 2005...
View attachment 101655 View attachment 101656
I have never had these issues using brand name spring compresors -on Mercedes. A spring is a spring and good compressors will be made from quality strong steel and will not bend.
Have you used one of these before?? They only work from the bottom for several reasons.
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Please review HOW-TO for W124.
HOW-TO: Replacing Front Upper Strut Mounts & Spring Pads | "HOW-TO" Tutorial Articles
Today I had a few hours, so I decided to do a job that I've been meaning to do for a long time: to replace the front spring pads with 1-bump MB pads, and to replace the front upper strut mounts on my E500, which were original to the car. Back in 2011 I had purchased four new spring pads (a...
www.500eboard.co
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Joe, I've had baaaad experiences with these external compressors. For one, I've had them slip around during compression, so both are next to each other! One just started slipping and BAM it was on the otherside. This was 15+ years ago on a VW spring, not a W124.
Also, if you don't get industrial-grade versions, the shafts can bend... be careful if attempting to use these external versions!!
Photos are from 2004 or 2005...
View attachment 101655 View attachment 101656
I agree with Dave 100% on NOT using this type of compressor and strongly disagree with Joe on using this style of spring clamp. I had already owned these spring compressors for a job I had done on a 79 Dodge Van. On that project they worked fine and caused no problems.
Naturally already owning these outside design compressors and being "Young and Dumb" I used them when I installed the Eibach springs in my long gone 300E. The suspension system on the 124 is completely different than the Dodge Van and really doesn't allow this type of compressor to work properly. This is truly a "Hand Grenade" accident waiting to happen. As Dave describes the clamps will slip around and both will end up on the same side of the spring. I finally figured out how to defeat this problem by using "Mini Vice Grips" and clamping them on the spring itself therefore preventing the clamps from sliding. I did this several times on the 300E because I was not satisfied with the drop leveling of the car. It never got any safer. BTW, The Eibach springs were very easy to remove and replace. With the strut disconnected and the A-Frame fully extended the spring could be removed by hand.
@PJmac, The first set of front springs I ever changed were on my 1972 Lincoln Continental Mark V somewhere back in the 70s. I followed the instructions given in the Factory Manual which described what I thought was a very scary way to remove the springs. The manual stated that you put the car up on a lift and set a floor jack under the A-Frame. Then it instructed you to REMOVE the INNER A-FRAME HINGE BOLT!! and lower the floor jack. This allows the spring to extend and can be removed. Sounds easy BUT I did not have a lift and had the 4,500+lbs car on JACK STANDS. On my first attempt the CAR MOVED on the jack stands and scared the living shit out of me since I was under it. NOTE, this was my first ever attempt to change front springs on a car and I was "Younger and Dumber" than when I changed the 124 300E springs which was my third job on front springs.
NOTE @ PJmac, This method is very similar to what you are describing and you think it may be safer. I DON'T THINK SO. It's an accident waiting to happen. I highly recommend using the Klann Type compressor on a 124 and nothing else. OR take it to an expert Tech and have them do the job.
TRUST ME, I have experienced removing springs enough the wrong way. I've managed to get thru without maiming or killing myself but if I look back on it, but IT WAS ALL LUCK!
Maybe with age comes more sense as I value my life and limbs more.
Remember "SAFETY FIRST" is the best approach.
lol
It looks like the three prongs aren’t seating in the top plate. I’m planning on swapping to a pair of 2 bump pads on my E420 and I’ll make a video when I remove a spring. I’ve also got the stock springs in my garage and I can take plenty of pictures of the spring compressor on the bench if it will be helpful.
I've replaced driver side spring today. The culprit was brutus regularis and not the tool, which was just catching/binding on the control arm. After briefly compressing spring it would snap. Compressor's bolt must be a good 1.5 inches inside control arm before it stops against lower pressure plate and actually starts compressing the spring. Because the first few times I've tried my tool it caught on control arm and spring appeared to be compressing I thought that that's the correct way, but that there's an issue with a tool that it snaps. So those times that it didn't bind/catch on the control arm and actually was going in the correct way, because the travel was so long (before it stops against the lower plate) it compounded my thinking the there was something wrong with the tool.
@Duh_Vinci borrowed me his tool, which is essentially identical to mine and has been proven to work on his cars. When it replicated long travel - as in the bolt has to be 1.5 inches deep inside control arm before compressor stops against lower pressure plate - I had a brutus regularis eureka moment
. Once I knew 100% why the snaps happened and what the correct way was - two tools can't be both bad - paranoia stopped and I did R&R of the front driver spring in about 25 min
@Duh_Vinci borrowed me his tool, which is essentially identical to mine and has been proven to work on his cars. When it replicated long travel - as in the bolt has to be 1.5 inches deep inside control arm before compressor stops against lower pressure plate - I had a brutus regularis eureka moment
. Once I knew 100% why the snaps happened and what the correct way was - two tools can't be both bad - paranoia stopped and I did R&R of the front driver spring in about 25 min
Now, I need an advise regarding passenger front spring, which is broken (why I undertook this job in the first place). The spring broke at the bottom in the very first coil and now it's somewhat convexing toward the front of the car. Because of this, the lower pressure plate's groove is not catching the coil no matter what I try if the upper interlock is engaged. Photo shows the best I can do. The coil is still supported by the plate, but it's not in the groove. It is still guarded by the compressor shaft, so there is nowhere for the coil to escape.
Should I still proceed compressing? Thanks
Should I still proceed compressing? Thanks
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So basically it was compressing the spring temporarily by catching on the LCA (untill that lower edge of the shaft cleared the opening) and lifting the LCA upwards? Huh, ok!
Now, to the broken one... Hard to say when you not directly in front of it. But from what I can see, and if this was my car, I would take a pry bar (while the spring has some tension, and try get that plate sited properly! Has to be a way to do that! Can you take a better picture where the entire spring is visualized? I would not try removing it as showing in the picture, that far off axis!
Regards,
D
Now, to the broken one... Hard to say when you not directly in front of it. But from what I can see, and if this was my car, I would take a pry bar (while the spring has some tension, and try get that plate sited properly! Has to be a way to do that! Can you take a better picture where the entire spring is visualized? I would not try removing it as showing in the picture, that far off axis!
Regards,
D
As I believe you are also replacing the shocks, I would remove the single large top shock nut while supporting the outer LCA with your floor jack.
The broken spring should loose ALL its tension as you slowly lower the jack and should be free to easily remove before the LCA gets to the bottom of it’s arc. Wheel remaining bolted in place helps the downward LCA travel.
Both times I’ve replaced broken front springs, a compressor was not necessary until new spring installation.
Definitely a better plan than a half-cocked compressor IMO.
The broken spring should loose ALL its tension as you slowly lower the jack and should be free to easily remove before the LCA gets to the bottom of it’s arc. Wheel remaining bolted in place helps the downward LCA travel.
Both times I’ve replaced broken front springs, a compressor was not necessary until new spring installation.
Definitely a better plan than a half-cocked compressor IMO.
Glad you got the problem figured out! Now I understand what was going on. The shaft wasn't seating against the lower plate when you started wrenching. Always make sure it's contacting the plate by spinning by hand, before using tools.
Your broken spring is an anomaly. I agree with Duh, pry that spring on to the lower plate before you compress further. The tool shaft should not be along the edge of the spring.
Your broken spring is an anomaly. I agree with Duh, pry that spring on to the lower plate before you compress further. The tool shaft should not be along the edge of the spring.
It's hard to see convex in the picture as it can only be taken from the front of the car and not from the side - strut is blocking spring. More apparent in person; doesn't look extreme, but definitely apparent
Convex is about 1, at most 1.5 inches at max point. The distance between coil and the outer edge of the lower pressure plate groove.
@northNH, thanks for describing your method. In your cases of broken front springs, where were breaking points? In my case only about 1/2-3/4 of the very first coil is gone. You can see the new 1st point of spring contact with LCA. Would your method still be applicable for my situation (only half or so of very first coil gone?) Thanks
Convex is about 1, at most 1.5 inches at max point. The distance between coil and the outer edge of the lower pressure plate groove.
@northNH, thanks for describing your method. In your cases of broken front springs, where were breaking points? In my case only about 1/2-3/4 of the very first coil is gone. You can see the new 1st point of spring contact with LCA. Would your method still be applicable for my situation (only half or so of very first coil gone?) Thanks
Exactly!
It is difficult for anyone to assess the situation without being there at this point. If you cannot get the plate to engage the spring in a manner that looks safe to you i would proceed in the manner that northNH describes. If you loop a tow chain through the spring as well as the top perch and lower control arm leaving enough length to lower the control arm as far as is necessary this will prevent any unexpected danger.
drew
drew
I'm concerned that there is only a tiny portion (circled in blue) of the lowest coil that is propping up whole spring and prying another coil above it might(?) cause it to pop out. You guys have 15 tons of experience, does my concern have any grounds to it? Is whacking it with a hammer back towards the perch in the LCA a dumb idea?
Drew, could you please be a tad more specific as to the type, size, end-connectors, etc.? I'm not familiar with towing chains at all... Thanks
Kiev,
You got out the full spring successfully. IMOP, that was harder than it will be to remove the broken spring. There should be less tension on the broken spring.
I think that if you can get the Klan compressor on the main portion of the spring and start compressing it, the lower broken portion of spring will just fall out of the perch / lower A frame. There should be very little tension on the lower broken piece. In fact even the main portion of the spring should be easier to compress.
I think all that Drew is saying is to pull a piece of heavy chain (tow chain or whatever you want to call it) thru the coils (this means inside the coil with the compressor). That way the chain would prevent the spring from jumping out at you if the compressor slips off of the coil spring. You could also use a piece of steel cable or a heavy nylon rope used for tying down a load on a truck. The main objective here would be to attach it to the car chassis in some manner so that it secures the spring from going anywhere.
PS: This is just my opinion Drew or others my have a different one.
Anyhow, Your half way there. I say "Go for It"
Good Luck
Using the compressor on the cocked spring puts more tension on the spring; you want less.
Removing the top shock nut before lowering the outer end of LCA = more relaxed less cocked spring.
Also need to loosen/free up ASB outer end clamp to allow maximum downward movement of LCA.
Then you can more easily use the compressor if still necessary; it wasn’t for me for the 2 broken springs I’ve done (with ~1 broken bottom coil like yours).
I was able to simply rotate the spring out, bottom first...
Removing the top shock nut before lowering the outer end of LCA = more relaxed less cocked spring.
Also need to loosen/free up ASB outer end clamp to allow maximum downward movement of LCA.
Then you can more easily use the compressor if still necessary; it wasn’t for me for the 2 broken springs I’ve done (with ~1 broken bottom coil like yours).
I was able to simply rotate the spring out, bottom first...
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@northNH, and others - thank you for your mentorship and guidance. I know I ask first grader's questions, but that's because I'm in the first grade, as far as DIY auto work 
Rotate out it did! Although I'm probably the last owner of a 30 year old car on this Earth to learn how to R&R coil springs, in case there is still someone inexperienced after me, with a broken spring, that is forced to use "rotate out" method: detach brake caliper and hang it on the top spring mount before proceeding to lower the control arm to rotate the coil spring out or you'll snap your brake line! Thankfully, I caught this in time
Rotate out it did! Although I'm probably the last owner of a 30 year old car on this Earth to learn how to R&R coil springs, in case there is still someone inexperienced after me, with a broken spring, that is forced to use "rotate out" method: detach brake caliper and hang it on the top spring mount before proceeding to lower the control arm to rotate the coil spring out or you'll snap your brake line! Thankfully, I caught this in time
All W124s have a MacPherson type front suspension
Factory prescribed procedure to remove front springs is to use appropriate type of a compressor. It's easier, faster, and safer this way vs "rotating the spring out", which was a forced method because one of the springs broke and became misaligned in its lower perch, preventing me from using compressor (it wouldn't fit correctly)
With an unbroken spring, using a compressor makes it a 10-15 min job to remove the spring, and only a wheel has to come off. Rotate out" method takes significantly longer and requires:
- unbolting strut and managing it out from the wheel well
- removing a brake caliper
- using heavy duty cable/strap lopped through the spring, its perch, and a control arm to secure it, to prevent a possibility of it shooting out
- Removing outer sway bar bracket
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Almost every Mercedes passenger car made since the mid-80's continued to use the same 5-link rear suspension design, well into the 2000's. 202, 203, 208, 210, 170, 171, all had the same layout and shared almost all part numbers. IIRC, even the 140 was the same design, just with larger components?
The 107 and 126 were the last to use the old-school funky rear suspensions through 89 and 91, respectively.
Yeah! That's it. Funky was being kind.
Obviously you're not familiar with the swing-axle rear suspension that MB used from the 1950s through 1972.
@LWB250: I'm just mean enough, that if they weren't so expensive and rare, I'd get @gsxr a W112 or W109 with leaky air-ride valves and iffy Phönix airbags, and let him have fun with diagnosing and repairing the swing-axle + air suspension. He'd be lovingly wishing for a "simple" 240D with its trailing-arm rear suspension by the end of it......
@LWB250: I'm just mean enough, that if they weren't so expensive and rare, I'd get @gsxr a W112 or W109 with leaky air-ride valves and iffy Phönix airbags, and let him have fun with diagnosing and repairing the swing-axle + air suspension. He'd be lovingly wishing for a "simple" 240D with its trailing-arm rear suspension by the end of it......
I was going to make an offhand remark about how much easier those "funky" cars are to replace subframe bushings.
Having him troubleshoot an air suspension car might possible make him crazy. And say what he likes, the swing axle suspension is a real joy to work on, I think. Much easier/simpler than the multi link setup.
Dan
I was introduced to the ride of the older Mercedes cars by a German friend of mine that took me for a ride in his 280SE 3.5 Convertible. No idea of what chassis number it was. Anyway we were approaching some familiar railroad tracks that I had always almost came to a stop when crossing. He was doing around 40 mph and I yelled at him to slow down. He said what for it's a Mercedes and we glided over the tracks with no drama at all. This friend was not crazy and he owned a 62 300SL Convertible He sold me my 64 220SEb
I can attest to this type suspension's ride with my 1967 230 Finn Tail that could go thru a dip at 50 mph that would take off mufflers and destroy the underside of most cars. It was one of the best riding cars I have ever owned.
lol
I can attest to this type suspension's ride with my 1967 230 Finn Tail that could go thru a dip at 50 mph that would take off mufflers and destroy the underside of most cars. It was one of the best riding cars I have ever owned.
lol
