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400E engine shuts its self off when reaches operating temp.

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karma

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Hello, we got our 400E off of a family friend for cheap because the engine would start chugging (making the car shake) then shut off when it gets up to operating temp. I have heard a lot of things of what it could be and I really don't know where to start, I heard it could be the ignition, or as easy as the wrong type of coolant. Seeing as this forum is for these cars I thought I could get a more straight forward answer, thanks!

P.S sorry if this has been discussed already, I made an account just to ask you guys : )
 
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It will be very difficult to diagnose without a lot more details & data, but it's definitely not coolant. Based on the limited info it could possibly be the crank position sensor (CKP), especially if it restarts and runs normally when it cools down. If there is misfiring ("making the car shake" sounds like misfiring), that would be ignition. Search the forum for past discussion on both items.
 
thank you! I just found out the family friend replaced the spark plugs and wires 8 times in 4 years but not the distributor cap or rotors so I think it might be that
 
Read the threads discussing caps & rotors. There are some brands you may want to avoid, and you should probably replace the insulators as well if they are original... also verify the plugs are NON-resistor, Bosch F8DC4, preferably gapped at 1.0mm (wider than spec).

:shocking:
 
Two possible causes that might be the source of your problem. CPS [crank position sensor] could be bad, works fine when cold, but stops functioning when engine heats up. Easiest way to tell, disconnect the CPS from the EZL and use a VOM to measure the ohms. Connect CPS back to EZl, start car and let run till it dies, the remove CPS from EZL and measure ohms again, if you get no reading [or a drastically different reading], then you need to replace the CPL.

As for caps/rotors, the only situation I have ever experienced is when I cleaned the contacts and removed a small amount of brass material. When started, the car ran fine till it reached operating temps, then it would shut off. This was due to the caps heating up and expanding, thus increasing the gap from the rotor contacts to the cap contacts. This increased gap was outside operating conditions, so the car would shut down and not restart. Once the caps cooled down, they shrunk and would allow the car to start. Solution was to replace the caps. FWIW, never clean the contacts with anything more than say rubbing alcohol. Never use a wire brush, even a brass one.
 
Two possible causes that might be the source of your problem. CPS [crank position sensor] could be bad, works fine when cold, but stops functioning when engine heats up. Easiest way to tell, disconnect the CPS from the EZL and use a VOM to measure the ohms. Connect CPS back to EZl, start car and let run till it dies, the remove CPS from EZL and measure ohms again, if you get no reading [or a drastically different reading], then you need to replace the CPL.

As for caps/rotors, the only situation I have ever experienced is when I cleaned the contacts and removed a small amount of brass material. When started, the car ran fine till it reached operating temps, then it would shut off. This was due to the caps heating up and expanding, thus increasing the gap from the rotor contacts to the cap contacts. This increased gap was outside operating conditions, so the car would shut down and not restart. Once the caps cooled down, they shrunk and would allow the car to start. Solution was to replace the caps. FWIW, never clean the contacts with anything more than say rubbing alcohol. Never use a wire brush, even a brass one.
I heard this several times before. But I don't believe it. If you look at the contacts under the microscope you can see that there are small chunks higher then the surface of the orange plastic. When this is removed there is no difference of distance to the rotor to the situation before.

I removed these chunks several times and, you are right, this didn't solve the problem for longer time. The problems will always be back after a few days, especially when the car is not in use and the humidity is high.
If you clean the contacts and let the hole thing dry for some days on an radiator e.g. there will be no problem any more until it will be wet again. The solution for me was to dry the distributor cap. After this I put an isolation layer with a special spray on the inside of the distributor (not the contacts) and up to now I don't have ignition problems any more.
 
I'll throw in one wildcard, as a last resort (based on my 92 400E's case): MAF.

After doing/replacing everything else mentioned above and yet to be mentioned (including replacement with non-eco ETA and harness), once a "new" (Bosch rebuilt) MAF was installed, the problem was eliminated permanently (~4 years so far). Problem was the car shut off abruptly everytime it reached 80+ degrees. Sounds similar.
 
I heard this several times before. But I don't believe it. If you look at the contacts under the microscope you can see that there are small chunks higher then the surface of the orange plastic. When this is removed there is no difference of distance to the rotor to the situation before.

I removed these chunks several times and, you are right, this didn't solve the problem for longer time. The problems will always be back after a few days, especially when the car is not in use and the humidity is high.
If you clean the contacts and let the hole thing dry for some days on an radiator e.g. there will be no problem any more until it will be wet again. The solution for me was to dry the distributor cap. After this I put an isolation layer with a special spray on the inside of the distributor (not the contacts) and up to now I don't have ignition problems any more.
Thanks for adding your experience on the never-ending "caps-moisture-syndrome". The caps appears to be made from a capillary material sucking up any fluids like water, oil, cleaning agents etc... The fluid molecules will be trapped in the material structure and would likely never dry up at normal atmospheric conditions, the caps has to be dried up at higher temps. The problems is also geographically dependent with varying dew point.

The image below is of a modified cap in my recently sold Limited, where I cut the additional ventilation with a Dremel and some fine filing. This was done back in 2014 after posting an illustration of the idea here: Best caps and rotors- and where to buy them??? | M119 Engine
As you see the cap is absolute clean - and this is after the car has been sitting for 7 years!! :banana2:

IMG_0300.JPG
 
Thanks for adding your experience on the never-ending "caps-moisture-syndrome". The caps appears to be made from a capillary material sucking up any fluids like water, oil, cleaning agents etc... The fluid molecules will be trapped in the material structure and would likely never dry up at normal atmospheric conditions, the caps has to be dried up at higher temps. The problems is also geographically dependent with varying dew point.

The image below is of a modified cap in my recently sold Limited, where I cut the additional ventilation with a Dremel and some fine filing. This was done back in 2014 after posting an illustration of the idea here: Best caps and rotors- and where to buy them??? | M119 Engine
As you see the cap is absolute clean - and this is after the car has been sitting for 7 years!! :banana2:

View attachment 139692
82-page white paper with molecular-level discussion of the phenomenon?
 
Yes, that report gives it all in details, for those interested. :thumbsup2:

If the car is driven on a weekly basis it may not happen, but as soon as it is sitting for a week or two in humid conditions it will appear. Even if the car is washed indoor after sitting for a week it may occure, has happened to me several times. I can't even guess how much money the owners of M119 powered cars have wasted on this by replacing the caps when it occure. The caps are robust with regard to function vs. wear on the contact points, which was clearly stated by Klink some time ago. But the lack of ventilation on the caps is simply a very bad design.
 
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Thanks for adding your experience on the never-ending "caps-moisture-syndrome". The caps appears to be made from a capillary material sucking up any fluids like water, oil, cleaning agents etc... The fluid molecules will be trapped in the material structure and would likely never dry up at normal atmospheric conditions, the caps has to be dried up at higher temps. The problems is also geographically dependent with varying dew point.

The image below is of a modified cap in my recently sold Limited, where I cut the additional ventilation with a Dremel and some fine filing. This was done back in 2014 after posting an illustration of the idea here: Best caps and rotors- and where to buy them??? | M119 Engine
As you see the cap is absolute clean - and this is after the car has been sitting for 7 years!! :banana2:

View attachment 139692
Does the aforementioned white paper credit your solution 500AMM?

I think the report should definitely credit the person who clearly thought of and also actioned the inclusion of additonal ventilation slots in m119 caps.

@robm.UK does need to add this clarification on page no1 of his stupendous report and his signature plz. (Also lacks pictures)

200.gif
 
Well, I did this improvement in an attempt to solve a repeating issue, and proved it working a couple of years ahead of the report made by Robert (@robm.UK). However, I can't claim any rights on it and I am not hunting for big credits, but if Robert did pick up the idea from me it could be mentioned in the report. But I don't lose night sleep of this. :rugby:

In another perspective – why haven't Bosch done anything about this?? I'm sure they're aware of the issue after 3++ decades selling millions of this c(r)ap. It could be a security aspect into this due to high voltage hazards in case of unfortunate spill of fluids onto the caps. The caps are normally protected of the plastic covers on the M119 engine, but accidents could happen when the covers are removed during maintenance work etc... BTW, if this particular cap is used on other 4 cylinder engines, they may not have any protection cover. Just guessing...
 
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In another perspective – why haven't Bosch done anything about this?? I'm sure they're aware of the issue after 3++ decades selling millions of this c(r)ap.
I suspect Mercedes owns the design specs while Bosch (and Doduco) just produced what MB spec'd. If so, it would be MB's fault, and Bosch simply doesn't care - especially with declining sales, as each year fewer of these cars are on the road, and demand is spread across other non-OEM suppliers like Bremi.

Now, this could open up an opportunity for Meyle HD or ÜRO Premium to release an "improved design" cap with the extra slots and some clearcoat varnish. I doubt that will happen due to lack of demand / low ROI.

BTW, I don't know how many M119 distributor-ignition engines were produced in total. Numbers were low for the W124 (around 35k worldwide for both .034/.036 combined), but MB sold a lot more R129's and 140's. Guess I should try to find my Nitske book and see if that has data. Maybe 200k-250k worldwide for all 119.960 and 119.97x?

:scratchchin: :poop:
 
Wow! I thought this thread had died, google decided that the updates were spam so I wasn't getting any updates. We weren't able to work on it as we were busy building an extension on our house. Thank you so much for all the replies and depending on how mild the winter is maybe I can get around on working on it for spring. My dad bought replacement rotors so those should be put on soon, probably needs new caps so we should order those. Thanks again!
 
I had this on one of 124 Mercedes. found the reason in the temperature sensor, which did not turn on the fan to cool the engine. the protection worked and the engine was muffled by itself.
 
I suspect Mercedes owns the design specs while Bosch (and Doduco) just produced what MB spec'd. If so, it would be MB's fault, and Bosch simply doesn't care...
Dave, I think I would have to agree with you that Bosch doesn’t care. I wrote to Bosch in 2018 and 2020, and I didn’t get a response. As you say, no ROI.

Well, I did this improvement in an attempt to solve a repeating issue, and proved it working a couple of years ahead of the report made by Robert (@robm.UK). However, I can't claim any rights on it and I am not hunting for big credits, but if Robert did pick up the idea from me it could be mentioned in the report. But I don't lose night sleep of this. :rugby:...
Arnt, I am sorry but I was not aware of any of your posts on the subject at the time I wrote and released the latest 2020-08-27 second edition of my CIS-e Misfire report.

When @gerryvz made me aware of your posts on 500eboard a few months ago you will recall that I acknowledged you. But it also struck me that there had been little up-take or momentum from 500eboard.

This was probably because the idea of adding ventilation to a distributor has been around for as long as I can remember, and other Mercedes models like the M104 have slot vents around the clock and certainly at both the bottom and the top. So the concept in itself is not unique. No one here can make claim to owning this idea, so I think @JC220 has got the wrong end of the stick.

I think you have to go back to the first page of my report, which explains the aims of my report: -

The purpose of this article is to ascertain the root causes of the misfiring in the CIS electronic ignition engine by measuring the physical properties of the air-vapour mixtures inside a running distributor, and through the use of psychrometric graphs and standard physics equations of enthalpy, analyse and manipulate the data collected to determine the most practicable solution to either minimise the risk of misfiring or find a permanent cure”.

What some folks probably don’t seem to appreciate is the intellectual and practical value of the report, and the fact that it is unique because it examines the root causes using novel approaches and bespoke computer modelling. This enables the size and number of vents to be reliably determined to minimise the risk of misfire in an M119 engine in most geographical locations by considering the effects and relationships of following parameters: -

Geographical location (humidity, altitude, ambient temperature)
Ventilation and effective volume of air.
Ventilation and diffusion.
Ventilation and dispersal of water vapour.
Cross flow ventilation.
Convection streams.
Effect of spinning rotor.
Effects of engine warming.
Effects of engine cooling.
Effects of variations in engine warming and cooling cycles.
Thermal gradients.
Rate of increase in temperature of the air inside the distributor cap.
Thermal inertia.
Partial and saturated vapour pressures;under varying conditions.
Moisture concentration of air inside the cap.
Dry and wet bulb temperatures.
Minimum dry bulb temperature to elicit condensation.
Dew point.
Temperature of air inside the cap.
Surface area of cap.
Density of air.
Specific heat of air.
Heating time.
Mass of air.
Effective mass of air.
Cross sectional area of existing ventilation.
Cross sectional area of proposed ventilation.
Engine RPM.
Angular velocity of camshaft.
Angular velocity of air due to rotation of the camshaft and rotor.
Enthalpy.
Heat flux.
Conductive heat energy.
Convective heat energy.
Change in temperature of air inside the distributor.
Change of temperature of surface of alloy recess.
Thermal losses.
Heat generation.
Heat diffusion.
Heat radiation off surfaces.
Heat energy of conduction through air.
Transfer of heat energy via convection.
Hygroscopic properties of synthetic and mineral fillers in the polymer.
The air volume and compactness of the design.
Imbalance in partial vapour pressures due to condensation and adsorption.
Vapour pressure equilibrium.
Vapour drive and diffusion.
Effects of high ambient relative humidity and engine cooling.
Molecular weights of water vapour, air and ozone.
Effects on rate of evaporation of condensed and adsorbed water.
Emission of blow-by of humid crankcase gases via the camshaft oil seal.
Effects of high ambient relative humidity and engine warm up.
Relationship between relative humidity and temperature of air inside the cap.
Condensation and dehumidification.
Camshaft seal, crankcase blow-by gases and gasoline fraction.
Alternative interventions - silicone / high temperature dielectric grease.
Effects of sealer sprays such as WD40.
Effect of HT voltage and temperature on silicone.
Production of silicone carbide.
Function of insulator cup.
Function of insulator rubber seal.
Function of existing vents.
Degradation of material properties over time.
Real time testing of physical properties of the air-vapour mixtures inside a running distributor.
Development of bespoke psychrometric functions and standard physics equations of enthalpy.
Detailed data analysis and interpretation.

I can run simulations to see if an M119 engine with EZL ignition and unmodified distributor caps would be susceptible to moisture related misfire in Nevada, Oregon, Florida, New South Wales, Donegal, Buckinghamshire, Lanarkshire, Oslo, Viken ... mostly any where in the world, so long as I know the ranges of ambient temperature, relative humidity and the altitude of the geographical location.

We all know Nevada is going to be low risk. It is just an example.

I can determine for each of these geographical areas the size and number of vents required to minimise misfire.

Some of the live data from my 500SL is included in the appendix to the report, but for running simulations I use a much larger database from a number of M119 engines to increase the accuracy and reliability of the results.

Regards
Rob
 
Rob, many thanks for your reply! (y)
And absolutely no offence taken at my end, I'm totally relaxed on this and you should be as well. I didn't even know that the concept has been around on the M104 engines.
Your research and calcs are indeed interesting, so keep up the good work. :beerchug:
 
Rob, many thanks for your reply! (y)
And absolutely no offence taken at my end, I'm totally relaxed on this and you should be as well. I didn't even know that the concept has been around on the M104 engines.
Your research and calcs are indeed interesting, so keep up the good work. :beerchug:
Excellent 500AM, this is how it should be viewed of course! And I wasn't getting at you FWIW. (The m104 engines caps are OK and have vent slots. So I think this is just a comparison that other MB engines of the same era had vent slots where the m119 clearly missed out! Maybe Gunther was off that day?)

No one here can make claim to owning this idea, so I think @JC220 has got the wrong end of the stick.
JC220 is simply making reference regarding your own recent assertions Rob. Your bad attitude in my Ignition thread was very much uncalled for. Claiming I copied your report and that the idea was exclusively yours and I was remiss in not crediting you for said information. And that my information was totally wrong and flawed in your own opinion.

You must understand I have created many How- To’s which are well received and well intentioned. Not everyone, including yourself takes the time to create How Tos and share on this forum. So to have someone wade in like that is very irritating and not usually the way things operate on this forum. (Other forums yes perhaps....)

I am not interested in who thought of it first – that is soley @robm.UK who raised this topic hellbent on proving something(?) In any case glad that you have now softened your stance Rob on the ownership of all M119 cap ventilation thoughts and have learned to play nice in this forum. Really appreciated.


It is indeed a shame Bosch have not since addressed a clear flaw in the lack of vents on these distributer caps. They must be aware of the issue but decided not to re develop the tooling etc on an engine out of production so I guess we are stuck with it. Happily, cutting the slots (if you are aware of the need for them) is an easy modification to carry out yourself.
 
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@JC220

As I said earlier Joe, I still maintain that you have got the wrong end of the stick.

I never said you copied my report, or the vent idea was exclusively mine, or that your information was totally wrong, and I haven’t softened my stance. You are putting words in my mouth and misquoting me.

I made two posts out of the 28 made in total in your thread ‘essential tune up mods’.

All I pointed out in post #10 was the technical differences concerning the number and size of the vent slots and the air-flow direction.

FYI - Essential M119 Ignition "Tune Up" mods | M119 Engine

In post #12 of the ‘essential tune up mods’ thread you deflected the thread into a pointless fallacious argument over your sources and credibility.

I assume that we are free to put across technical points on this forum?

Wouldn’t it have been much easier for you to simply respond to the technical points that I had raised?

Saying I have a bad attitude is another example of more fallacious argument in ad hominem, which again just deflects from the technical argument.

I never said you were remiss in not crediting me, I asked you to credit others in post #24 of the ‘essential tune up mods’ thread.

I never raised the issue of who thought of the fix first. That was you in post #12 of the ‘essential tune up mods’ thread.

I never said that I had exclusive rights on the idea or that you stole my work. These were your words in post #27 of the ‘essential tune up mods’ thread.

As for your comments ‘not everyone on this forum, including yourself... shares on this forum’, and ‘I’m glad... that you have learned to play nice on this forum’. I suggest you look up and observe what’s going on around you from time to time.

I really appreciate your expertise and background, but it seems wrong to degrade that standing with this sort of rhetoric!

Rob
 
I never said you were remiss in not crediting me, I asked you to credit others in post #24
By others, and in your opinion who do you mean I need to credit Rob?

And credit for what exactly(?)

Why did you delete several recent posts of yours?

@JC220

As I said earlier Joe, I still maintain that you have got the wrong end of the stick.

I never said you copied my report, or the vent idea was exclusively mine, or that your information was totally wrong, and I haven’t softened my stance. You are putting words in my mouth and misquoting me.
You said in your first input on my How-To:

Good to see you’re promoting my distributor cap fix 😃 👍

You can download my article on moisture related misfire by clicking the link -> HERE <-

I note that you have made some departures from my recommendations, which at best may not work out for some folks, and at worst may lead to the wasted effort and expense of others.
So I was putting words in your mouth and misquoting you Rob eh?

Let's look at your own post directly above.

As for your comments ‘not everyone on this forum, including yourself... shares on this forum’, and ‘I’m glad... that you have learned to play nice on this forum’.
Where above I actually said:

Not everyone, including yourself takes the time to create How Tos and share on this forum.
WTF Rob, you are literally changing my words and in the same post saying I do this to you.

I am still not aware of a single How-To you created on 500E board Rob. Yet you came into one of mine with opening line of "Good to see you’re promoting my distributor cap fix"

I do have an issue with that yes. An apology would be good :hornets:
 
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