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OWNER Glen (199)
- Thread starter Glen
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Glen,
My front crank seal has been leaking for the past couple of years now, and I've finally gotten to the point (and have the space/time) to replace it. I also ordered a Graf water pump for my 119 and plan to replace the pump as part of the front seal replacement. Mine is due to be delivered in the next day or two. I got mine from another vendor, and it was a bit cheaper than AHAZ. Be sure to get the proper gaskets! Also a good time to do the thermostat, if it hasn't been done recently. At ~$40, cheap insurance while you are in there.
As far as the front crank seal ... your call, and a tough one IMHO. The last thing you want to do is to do the pump, and then six months later have the crank seal start leaking. There are a few special tools that make the job MUCH easier, such as the crank seal press, and the flywheel lock for the 119 (which I ordered for this job) and the fan holder (which I know you have, as you loaned it to me several years back...now I have the factory tool).
If you plan to do the job soon, I can send you my tools and postpone my own doing of this job until you finish (I have to replace the oil level sender on my 560SEC, which is weeping, as well as the timing chain). If not, I can send you the tools after I'm done with the job.
Let me know -- I'm happy to help/support you with the crank seal tools. I even ordered a spare M119 front crank seal, which I can include.
Cheers,
Gerry
Thanks Gerry. I plan to start disassembly this weekend. I'll evaluate the crank seal as I get into it and let you know if I need your tools. I replaced the t-stat a few years ago but will install a new one for good measure.
Side note: mileage is at 623,9xx so just over a 1000 miles to go to quality for the 1 million km badge
Glen, MB doesn't appear to offer new pumps anymore (which were $$$!), they only offers remans now. At $207 plus core, I'd seriously consider the OE reman vs aftermarket:
https://www.mboemparts.com/?p=catalog&mode=search&search_in=all&search_str=119-200-15-01
If it's been replaced recently, I'd leave it alone. Otherwise... definitely replace it. You've already done 90% of the work to access it with the water pump out, the seal replacement is incremental labor at this point. The only special tools needed are the seal installer, flywheel lock, and 400Nm torque wench. The hub puller is a free rental at AutoZone, or ~$25 to buy outright. This thread should have most of the info you need:
https://www.500eboard.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7501
On a side note, the M119 flywheel locks have become available again at very reasonable prices, ~$125 delivered from multiple vendors. Search for Baum 116-0140 (link).
Graf pump has been ordered along with a new t-stat.
Will evaluate other parts during disassembly.
I've had Graf and Laso aftermarket pumps on various engines over the years, and nary a problem. If I remember, the now semi-famous "Stig wagen" has a Laso pump installed. That poor Stig wagen ... it's been prostituted out to more owners in the past four years than it has deserved.
So far I’ve been lucky. Old pump is out and I’m starting to clean stuff up. The pulley and dampener came off without a fuss. The hardest part was getting the vertical bolts that hold the alternator bracket to the fan bearing.
At this point I’m thinking I’ll leave the front seal alone.
At this point I’m thinking I’ll leave the front seal alone.
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While putting it back together Saturday afternoon I realized I was missing a bolt. Those of you that have been following along since the beginning may remember the severe oil leak when I got the car.
The leak was from the front cover being loose, I tightened three bolts along the right side of the front cover and it’s been leak free ever since.
Well, all this time it was missing one bolt for the fan bearing! I called a few places Saturday afternoon but no one had what I needed. So Sunday morning I went to the junkyard and again, I was lucky. Found a ‘94 SL500 and retrieved the M8 x 1.25 x 150mm bolt pictured below.
The distributor covers were also in great shape so I picked those up as well. And lastly, the OE fan clutch looked to be newish so I grabbed it too. All in, $36.00 including entrance fee for me and the wife.
So anyway, it’s all back together and I’ll be driving it to work shortly.
Here’s a shot when I finished...sorry for not cleaning the covers, I wanted to catch the 2nd half of the Super Bowl...
The leak was from the front cover being loose, I tightened three bolts along the right side of the front cover and it’s been leak free ever since.
Well, all this time it was missing one bolt for the fan bearing! I called a few places Saturday afternoon but no one had what I needed. So Sunday morning I went to the junkyard and again, I was lucky. Found a ‘94 SL500 and retrieved the M8 x 1.25 x 150mm bolt pictured below.
The distributor covers were also in great shape so I picked those up as well. And lastly, the OE fan clutch looked to be newish so I grabbed it too. All in, $36.00 including entrance fee for me and the wife.
So anyway, it’s all back together and I’ll be driving it to work shortly.
Here’s a shot when I finished...sorry for not cleaning the covers, I wanted to catch the 2nd half of the Super Bowl...
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Joe is correct, the R129/W140 clutch is thicker and won't fit on a W124. (Or it will have near-zero clearance to the radiator.)
Glad to hear everything went smoothly, Glen! Have you taken it for a test drive? Any difference in operating temps?
Glen,
What did you think of the quality of the Graf pump and casting? I received my own replacement pump on Saturday and I though it felt pretty high quality in the housing casting, and impeller assembly. My Graf came with all appropriate gaskets in the box, although assuming that it didn't, I had ordered an MB water pump gasket separately (now I have a spare).
Did you re-use the water pump bolts?
What did you think of the quality of the Graf pump and casting? I received my own replacement pump on Saturday and I though it felt pretty high quality in the housing casting, and impeller assembly. My Graf came with all appropriate gaskets in the box, although assuming that it didn't, I had ordered an MB water pump gasket separately (now I have a spare).
Did you re-use the water pump bolts?
Joe is correct, the R129/W140 clutch is thicker and won't fit on a W124.
Glad to hear everything went smoothly, Glen! Have you taken it for a test drive? Any difference in operating temps?
I test fit it without the fan blade and it looks like it will clear but would make accessing the front bolt EXTREMELY difficult. Since my ACM clutch is still working, I reinstalled it to make my life a little easier.
I drove it a bit last night to check for leaks...I forgot to tighten one clamp, oops. No difference in running temp but it was cool last night and this morning on the way to work. So, I guess the new t-stat wasn't really necessary.
The Graf pump appears to be high quality, no complaints or issues with installation. It came with new gaskets and t-stat o-ring which I have an extra since the t-stat came with one as well. Yes, I did reuse the bolts after cleaning and anti-seize on the threads.
HIGHLY recommended to replace the t-stat every 7-10 years, or every other coolant change. Very cheap insurance. Although the typical failure mode is opening early (engine takes forever to reach 80C), they can also stick closed and cause overheating. The only way I'd not replace the t-stat during a water pump job is if the t-stat is very recent (and OE/OEM).
HIGHLY recommended to replace the t-stat every 7-10 years, or every other coolant change. Very cheap insurance. Although the typical failure mode is opening early (engine takes forever to reach 80C), they can also stick closed and cause overheating. The only way I'd not replace the t-stat during a water pump job is if the t-stat is very recent (and OE/OEM).
The t-stat was only a couple years old...same Wahler unit I just installed. But you're right considering the cost, it makes sense.
Edit, slight correction, it's been 3.6 years and ~40K miles, from my Fuelly notes:
Installed new Wahler t-stat. The old one was the wrong part, looked to be a standard M104 item. Engine is running much cooler! 6/7/2014, 584183
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My last thermostat in the SEC (same unit as used in the E500E) lasted about 7 years and exactly 60K miles. I didn't notice there was a problem with early opening, in the heat of Texas, but noticed it straightaway here in Maryland with the colder/winter temperatures.
I agree with Dave - would ALWAYS replace a thermostat when the water pump comes out. My current E500 thermostat (an aftermarket Behr) was replaced in 2015, and only has 9K miles on it, but I'm going to replace it when I do my water pump.
I agree with Dave - would ALWAYS replace a thermostat when the water pump comes out. My current E500 thermostat (an aftermarket Behr) was replaced in 2015, and only has 9K miles on it, but I'm going to replace it when I do my water pump.
Ugh.
You know when you forget to go back and finish something that didn't seem to be critical but then a few days later something happens and you say d'oh!
Well, after finishing the water pump install last Sunday, I wanted to catch the 2nd half of the Superbowl so decided I would wait to re-install the sound encapsulation panel until after the game. Plus it's easier to check for leaks with it out of the way. So, after the game, I go for a test drive and find one clamp I forgot to tighten. No big deal, tighten it up and all is good.
The Monday commute was uneventful, car is running great and temps are normal. Tuesday evening on my way home, there's a short stretch of freeway before a merge that you can get going pretty fast before hitting merge traffic...so I'm going a little over the limit and all of the sudden hear a scraping noise at the front right of the car. Damn, if it's ever happened to you, you know the sound. The encapsulation panel holds the wheel well liners in place at the front of the car and without it, they will catch air and get sucked under the car. :-(
I installed new panels just about exactly 3 years ago...getting current pricing now.
You know when you forget to go back and finish something that didn't seem to be critical but then a few days later something happens and you say d'oh!
Well, after finishing the water pump install last Sunday, I wanted to catch the 2nd half of the Superbowl so decided I would wait to re-install the sound encapsulation panel until after the game. Plus it's easier to check for leaks with it out of the way. So, after the game, I go for a test drive and find one clamp I forgot to tighten. No big deal, tighten it up and all is good.
The Monday commute was uneventful, car is running great and temps are normal. Tuesday evening on my way home, there's a short stretch of freeway before a merge that you can get going pretty fast before hitting merge traffic...so I'm going a little over the limit and all of the sudden hear a scraping noise at the front right of the car. Damn, if it's ever happened to you, you know the sound. The encapsulation panel holds the wheel well liners in place at the front of the car and without it, they will catch air and get sucked under the car. :-(
I installed new panels just about exactly 3 years ago...getting current pricing now.
but an opportunity to replace the plastic ;-)
Hi Glen I think I lost count but I had replaced the water pump at least 3 times if not 4. They do not last longer than 120k as the materials for the shaft insulation do not fit well with the metal it is connected to. It's a simple rotor but the shaft starts to microcrack and leak. The water pump is I believe to part I changed most in all my MB cars, it must be 10x on 4 MB cars in my driving lifetime of 2 Mio miles.........
Those panels are a nuisance as their fixing with a simple metal screw does not last long. SoCal was littered with my panels that fell off now and then. I fixed that at least 4 times that I can remember.
What is the difference between the words "of" and "off"? Well, the panels falling OFF the car are not OF finest quality (old joke about Jags in the 60's - when you had one you needed another one for spares).
That explains why the pulley and dampener came off so easily...and possibly why the front seal isn't leaking. (fingers crossed that it stays that way)
Hopefully, I won't have to replace it again during my ownership!
I know what you mean about water pumps, in the almost 300,000 miles I've put on the S124, I've replaced the water pump 3 times.
Hi Glen
yep, I wonder if this is a specific MB problem or a general one. It is definitely not a M119 specific problem, little story to that: I once was driving in a W124 taxi (300Diesel) from Frankfurt to Paderborn in Germany to a customer visit. When I sat in the car I glanced over to the odometer and read 890k kilometers. (I sat in others with over one million as well). I congratulated him for that but his gruff answer was: First, it's not 890k but 1.890Mio km as the odometer had turned over once already (it was a 24h taxi with three drivers and daily runs of 500km). Second his second engine was starting to going bad which was unacceptable for German MB taxi driver standards (1.5Mio km = 1 Mio miles is the expectation for a Diesel) . His ideal was the older W123 (diesel) engines (like the W123 240D) which lasted longer.
Then I asked him what typically goes wrong during the roughly 1Mio km lifetime of the engine and his answer was, guess what? Three water pumps and one alternator, but nothing else but for the standard items of belts, rotors etc. He mentioned that the pumps were a MB specific problem but I do not know if that is true.
yep, I wonder if this is a specific MB problem or a general one. It is definitely not a M119 specific problem, little story to that: I once was driving in a W124 taxi (300Diesel) from Frankfurt to Paderborn in Germany to a customer visit. When I sat in the car I glanced over to the odometer and read 890k kilometers. (I sat in others with over one million as well). I congratulated him for that but his gruff answer was: First, it's not 890k but 1.890Mio km as the odometer had turned over once already (it was a 24h taxi with three drivers and daily runs of 500km). Second his second engine was starting to going bad which was unacceptable for German MB taxi driver standards (1.5Mio km = 1 Mio miles is the expectation for a Diesel) . His ideal was the older W123 (diesel) engines (like the W123 240D) which lasted longer.
Then I asked him what typically goes wrong during the roughly 1Mio km lifetime of the engine and his answer was, guess what? Three water pumps and one alternator, but nothing else but for the standard items of belts, rotors etc. He mentioned that the pumps were a MB specific problem but I do not know if that is true.
Man. BTDT.
“Confidence: the feeling you get right before you fall on your face”
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And the new liner:
Note the bag with the new seals. When I bought it three years ago, it was sold by the meter. This time it came as a kit (107-884-01-98) with five, yes 5, one meter pieces...all for only $6.08 ($8.00 list) so not everything has gone up! The liner (124-884-16-35) itself lists for $97 and was discounted to $73.72...total with tax and shipping to my home was $99.14.
Anyway, it's all back together...with the belly pan (sound encapsulation panel) securely installed
Note the bag with the new seals. When I bought it three years ago, it was sold by the meter. This time it came as a kit (107-884-01-98) with five, yes 5, one meter pieces...all for only $6.08 ($8.00 list) so not everything has gone up! The liner (124-884-16-35) itself lists for $97 and was discounted to $73.72...total with tax and shipping to my home was $99.14.
Anyway, it's all back together...with the belly pan (sound encapsulation panel) securely installed
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Glen,
Is that the right side panel? My car has been missing the access door to the fog/driving light since I bought my car 13+years ago. For that very reasonable price I should replace mine. If that the right part number for the (passenger side) I will call Tom on Monday.
I also could use the drivers side small vented panel that sets vertically over the suspension.
Maybe you would have that part number?
Take Care
Is that the right side panel? My car has been missing the access door to the fog/driving light since I bought my car 13+years ago. For that very reasonable price I should replace mine. If that the right part number for the (passenger side) I will call Tom on Monday.
I also could use the drivers side small vented panel that sets vertically over the suspension.
Maybe you would have that part number?
Take Care
Hi Terry...yep, it’s the passenger side. The driver side part number is in a previous post from 3 years ago if you need it.
I don’t have the part number handy for the driver side cover you need.
Edit:see these posts: https://www.500eboard.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11718&p=157932&viewfull=1#post157932
https://www.500eboard.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11718&p=157980&viewfull=1#post157980
I don’t have the part number handy for the driver side cover you need.
Edit:see these posts: https://www.500eboard.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11718&p=157932&viewfull=1#post157932
https://www.500eboard.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11718&p=157980&viewfull=1#post157980
Glen, double-check to make sure you have ALL the fasteners which belong on the fender liners. We race our 500E's with the belly pan (sound encapsulation panel) removed, to speed up cool-down time in the pits - better convection airflow. We have never, in 12+ years of racing, experienced what is shown in your photos. At least not up to ~110mph anyway.
Note there should be an extra screw that goes into the leading edge of the bumper, on the side... see attached photo. There is also a screw that connects to a bracket approximately ahead of the sway bar bracket (this might connect to the side/vertical louvered splash shield, I forget). I can't find a photo showing the other screw. Based on your photos, I'm wondering if the bumper-lip screw is MIA? And of course there are the 2 screws which attach directly to the belly pan / encapsulation panel (these are 036-specific attachment points, ditto for the bumper screws).
Side note: Even with all mounting screws present, and the panel in place, USA/Japan spec cars without the oil cooler can experience the leading edge of the panel folding down and breaking off at high speeds (150+ mph). You may recall the discussion back on 500Ecstasy about this, pics are on my website here, see "engine_shield" pics. Before attempting the Mojave Magnum, it would be prudent to add some ties to keep the forward panel lip locked in place.
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Glen, double-check to make sure you have ALL the fasteners which belong on the fender liners. We race our 500E's with the belly pan (sound encapsulation panel) removed, to speed up cool-down time in the pits - better convection airflow. We have never, in 12+ years of racing, experienced what is shown in your photos. At least not up to ~110mph anyway.
Note there should be an extra screw that goes into the leading edge of the bumper, on the side... see attached photo. There is also a screw that connects to a bracket approximately ahead of the sway bar bracket (this might connect to the side/vertical louvered splash shield, I forget). I can't find a photo showing the other screw. Based on your photos, I'm wondering if the bumper-lip screw is MIA? And of course there are the 2 screws which attach directly to the belly pan / encapsulation panel (these are 036-specific attachment points, ditto for the bumper screws).
Side note: Even with all mounting screws present, and the panel in place, USA/Japan spec cars without the oil cooler can experience the leading edge of the panel folding down and breaking off at high speeds (150+ mph). You may recall the discussion back on 500Ecstasy about this, pics are on my website here, see "engine_shield" pics. Before attempting the Mojave Magnum, it would be prudent to add some ties to keep the forward panel lip locked in place.
Thanks Dave. On this car, the liner was originally fastened nearer the front corner of the bumper/spoiler. At least it's that way on the driver side. On the passenger side, I didn't have it fastened because the hole was torn prior to my owning the car...clearly from an earlier liner incident. I will take a good look in front of the sway bar because I know I didn't fasten it there on either side. Maybe I'll also add the fastener shown in your picture. Thanks!
Thats just awesome.
And look at that idle oil pressure when fully warm! Top notch Glen!
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Quick update.
Yesterday I did a way overdue transmission service. When I say overdue, I mean it hasn't been done is probably 80K miles! I would need to look through DrP's records to know for sure but in the ~50K miles I've put on the car, I hadn't done it. My reasoning was that I expected the trans to give up the ghost and when it did, I would have it rebuilt.
Well, after 5 years, shift quality hadn't changed and reverse engagement was still about 2.5 seconds. Worn yes but not enough (for me) to have the trans rebuilt. So, feeling guilty for the neglect, I did the service yesterday. As might be expected, the old fluid was dark and obviously overdue.
With fresh filter and fluid, I can't say it shifts any better (maybe slightly?) and reverse still takes about 2.5 seconds to engage. But at least, I don't have to feel ashamed for the neglect.
Note: current mileage is: 629077
Yesterday I did a way overdue transmission service. When I say overdue, I mean it hasn't been done is probably 80K miles! I would need to look through DrP's records to know for sure but in the ~50K miles I've put on the car, I hadn't done it. My reasoning was that I expected the trans to give up the ghost and when it did, I would have it rebuilt.
Well, after 5 years, shift quality hadn't changed and reverse engagement was still about 2.5 seconds. Worn yes but not enough (for me) to have the trans rebuilt. So, feeling guilty for the neglect, I did the service yesterday. As might be expected, the old fluid was dark and obviously overdue.
With fresh filter and fluid, I can't say it shifts any better (maybe slightly?) and reverse still takes about 2.5 seconds to engage. But at least, I don't have to feel ashamed for the neglect.
Note: current mileage is: 629077
Not really. When I have time, I'll dig through DrP's records.
I used Valvoline "full synthetic" universal Dex/Merc from my local auto parts store.
Well...you won't believe this. The most recent trans service I found in the stack of receipts dates back to August of 2009. Mileage at the time, wait for it...451076.
if that's right, it means the fluid and filter had almost 180,000 miles on it! I think DrP's long daily commute at the time contributed to the health of this transmission...moral of the story: Drive your cars often on long drives as much as possible!
if that's right, it means the fluid and filter had almost 180,000 miles on it! I think DrP's long daily commute at the time contributed to the health of this transmission...moral of the story: Drive your cars often on long drives as much as possible!
I kind of was. I assumed it would die and I’d have it rebuilt. But after 5 years it still shifts well enough to put off a rebuild for now.
