Lowering: H&R springs vs 1-bump pads? Also SLS question

[Cadence]

Does anyone have photos of a 500 lowered with H&R springs (standard pads) or with 1-bump pads all around?

I would like to see how low each combo sits. Perhaps 1-bump pads all around is low enough? If not maybe I could remove 1/2 a coil from the springs to bring it down a little more?

Also, when lowering the rear, does the SLS 'normal height' rest point need to be re-calibrated?

 

[gsxr]

Does anyone have photos of a 500 lowered with H&R springs (standard pads) or with 1-bump pads all around?

Click here, check out the "exterior" pics. That is with stock springs, 2-bump pads up front, 1-bump pads in the rear, and a full tank of fuel. The rear sits about a half-inch higher with an empty tank.

For comparison, click here to see a 500E with H&R springs, with 4-pt pads up front, and 1-pt pads in the rear. With 1-pt pads all around on H&R's, the car would be - IMO - stupid low. I bought the car as shown with the H&R's, and actually converted it back to stock springs. I personally think the H&R's drop the front too much.

I would like to see how low each combo sits. Perhaps 1-bump pads all around is low enough? If not maybe I could remove 1/2 a coil from the springs to bring it down a little more?

I have found that the factory setups tend to have the rear a bit higher than the front, and it's harder to get the rear down to be more visually "equal" to the front. It's more likely you'd need to cut the rear coils slightly, not the fronts. If you cut anything, do not cut 1/2 coil, only cut 1/4 coil to start with. Drive it for a while (to let everything settle) and then see how it looks, if it needs more (assuming 1pt pads are used) then try another 1/4 coil. If it's lower than desired, increase the height with thicker pads. The pads can only increase the height slightly, which is why you DO NOT want to cut too much!

Also, when lowering the rear, does the SLS 'normal height' rest point need to be re-calibrated?

Yes. You could cut two coils out of the springs and the rear end would hardly drop at all, due to the SLS holding things up. You can only adjust it so much though, then you'll run into the limits of the adjustment turnbuckle. The photos at the links above are all within the SLS adjustment limits.



BTW - as a starting point, measure the distance from the wheel center to the bottom of the fender lip. My 94 is approx 13.75" up front, and 14" in the rear with a full tank. My 92 is now 14" front and rear with a full tank... in the pics above with H&R's, it was 13.4" up front and 13.6" rear with a full tank; with 4pt front pads, 1pt rear. When the front is dropped that much, it may sit on the suspension stops, which again is not a good thing. Click here for a photo. At this point, you could literally remove the springs entirely and the car would not go any lower.

 

[Cadence]

Great info Dave - thanks!

I will try 1 bump pads all around to begin with an cut the springs if I need it to be a bit lower.

Do all E500E models come with the same spring pads from the factory, and if so what bump number are they?

Am I safe to order front and rear 1 bump pads without first checking my car or were these never a factory-installed part?

 

[gsxr]

Do all E500E models come with the same spring pads from the factory, and if so what bump number are they?

No. Due to production tolerances, the spring pads may vary from car to car. And, a previous owner may have changed them at some point in the past. The only way to know for sure is to jack up the car a bit and look at them with a flashlight. It's easier to see if you pull a tire.

Am I safe to order front and rear 1 bump pads without first checking my car or were these never a factory-installed part?

I'd check first, but they are relatively cheap (maybe $10/ea) so it's not a big loss. However, if (for example) you cut a 1/4 coil and it's too low, and you want to go back up a little, you may need a thicker pad. Then you end up needing an assortment. The front pads are different (larger diameter) than the rears. To swap pads, you need an MB-style spring compressor, unless you're having a shop do the work. It takes about 20-30 minutes per spring/pad depending how fast you work.

 

[Cadence]

Yes. You could cut two coils out of the springs and the rear end would hardly drop at all, due to the SLS holding things up. You can only adjust it so much though, then you'll run into the limits of the adjustment turnbuckle. The photos at the links above are all within the SLS adjustment limits.

The time has come for me to get moving on this lowering project.

My car has 2-bump pads up front that I will replace with 1-bump pads. Although the pads are only ~5mm thinner, I understand that the front end will lower closer to 10mm due to the motion ratio of the suspension. Have others found this to be true?

The rear already has 1-bump pads but I want to bring it down at least 10mm. I will try lengthening the SLS rod/turnbuckle to see how much the rear can be brought down. Once I max out this adjustment, would shorter lowering springs do anything to lower it more? I have seen two local 036s with lowering springs and neither seem to be any lower in the rear than mine is.

 

[sheward]

This is correct. A one bump change in pads will result in about 8mm difference. Lowering springs will lower the car even more. It's likely the owners of the cars you've seen were using the sls to raise the rear. This is what i do as the height with H&R springs and even 3 bump pads is very low.

drew

 

[Cadence]

It's likely the owners of the cars you've seen were using the sls to raise the rear. This is what i do as the height with H&R springs and even 3 bump pads is very low.

drew

A ha. What sort of adjustment procedure did you go through to raise the rear of your 036 via the SLS after installing the H&R springs?

*EDIT* I found these two factory documents. It seems as if the factory approves of adjusting the rear ride height via adjustments on the rear SLS lever and arm. The only catch is that I think lowering the rear via this adjustment would put the SLS in a permanent state of "Emptying" which may or may not be hard on the pump and other SLS components. Thoughts?

http://w124-zone.com/downloads/MB CD/W124/w124CD2/Program/Chassis/32-0501.pdf

http://users.zhonka.net/zeitgeist/MB Repairs/MB docs/AMG_W124_conversion_SLS.pdf


Has anyone here ever successfully lowered the rear of their 036 ~15mm below factory ride height via the SLS adjustments and either thin spring pads or H&R lowering springs? I have never seen an 036 that is low in the rear, i.e. level ride height with the lowered front end.

 

[need2speed]

H&R lowering springs with two-bump rear and four-bump front pads...

 

[Cadence]

H&R lowering springs with two-bump rear and four-bump front pads...

Thanks for posting. Could you possibly measure your front and rear ride height? Taken from center of hub to fender lip?

Your rear appears to be almost the same height as my car is with stock springs and 1-bump pads.

 

[gsxr]

My car has 2-bump pads up front that I will replace with 1-bump pads. Although the pads are only ~5mm thinner, I understand that the front end will lower closer to 10mm due to the motion ratio of the suspension. Have others found this to be true?

Expect 5-8mm as measured from wheel center to fender lip, assuming it's not lowered enough to be sitting on the suspension stops (not an issue with stock springs, but it could be an issue with H&R's).

The rear already has 1-bump pads but I want to bring it down at least 10mm. I will try lengthening the SLS rod/turnbuckle to see how much the rear can be brought down. Once I max out this adjustment, would shorter lowering springs do anything to lower it more? I have seen two local 036s with lowering springs and neither seem to be any lower in the rear than mine is.

The rear is set higher from the factory than most people want, and it's always harder to get the back end down due to SLS. The two other 036's with lowering springs may not have had the SLS adjusted after installing the springs, and/or the rear LCA had the pivot bolt tightened with the car in the air, which will also make it sit higher than it should. My 500E came with H&R's and the back end was too high, tweaking the SLS turnbuckle let the rear end come down quite a bit. But as mentioned back in post #2, I ended up switching back to stock springs.

 

[Cadence]

My 500E came with H&R's and the back end was too high, tweaking the SLS turnbuckle let the rear end come down quite a bit.

That is encouraging. Approx how much were you able to lower the rear end via the SLS turnbuckle when the H&Rs were in your car?


Did you notice much of a difference in ride quality when you changed from H&R springs back to stock? I assume the dampers remained the same? I like the lower height the H&Rs give but I don't want to give up the excellent factory ride quality!

 

[Silver Arrow]

Good question, Cadence - are the H&R springs noticeably stiffer than the factory springs? Or just lower?

 

[500AMM]

Good question, Cadence - are the H&R springs noticeably stiffer than the factory springs? Or just lower?

Hi.

Yes, the H&R are noticeably stiffer, but not that much - I would say you lose the smooth S-class feeling. It is approx. the same increase as going from regular E-class springs over to Sportline springs, and you add this on top of that again with the H&Rs. The same with Brabus, almost same as the H&Rs. It suits the car IMO, but that depends on personal preferences of course.

-arnt-

Gerry, if you read this post:
Is it possible to make a sticky thread about spring selections? This question keeps comming over and over again, so the info is spread over a number of threads. I think it's nice to merge this info into one thread so it's easy to find.

 

[gerryvz]

Hi Arnt,

I made the thread a "sticky" thread. Yes it's something that the moderators can easily do.

Cheers,
Gerry

 

[need2speed]

Good question, Cadence - are the H&R springs noticeably stiffer than the factory springs? Or just lower?

Depending on your needs, the H&R's are tremendously controlled at high speed while not compromising too much for daily driving IMHO, likely related to the compression characteristics of the coils. I tried running an open-road rallye with stock springs/shocks one year and found the lack of control very upsetting (to me AND the chassis). A change back to H&Rs plus Bilstein Sport front struts returned much needed solidity. On a related point, the upsized RENNTech sway bar was also an essential element of my road racing package.

 

[gsxr]

That is encouraging. Approx how much were you able to lower the rear end via the SLS turnbuckle when the H&Rs were in your car?

Approx 3/8-inch, as measured from wheel center to fender lip. I did not try to see what the maximum adjustment was, so I'm not sure if I could have gotten it lower. For me, the bigger problem was the front was too low with 4-pt pads, and there was no way to raise it without using different springs. That's why I went back to stock springs.

Did you notice much of a difference in ride quality when you changed from H&R springs back to stock? I assume the dampers remained the same? I like the lower height the H&Rs give but I don't want to give up the excellent factory ride quality!

Ride quality was very similar, I did not notice much difference. I have stock OE dampers all around.


Remember that the OE dampers are tuned to the ride height, lowering the car with stock dampers may cause more body roll since the chassis will be further away from the strut's internal rebound limiting springs. I have found the OE struts to be a tad on the soft side, even when new; which may explain why Dean found the Bilstein Sports to control things better at high speed. I personally think this is more due to the Bilsteins than the H&R springs though; the springs are not much stiffer, just shorter. The wire diameter/specs back up this observation, btw. It's a real shame the E60 springs are NLA. I think they would be ideal, as they don't drop the car as much as H&R's, and may be stiffer as well.

 

[Silver Arrow]

What were the spec's on the E60 springs? Different ride height? Stiffer?

Surely a US-based spring manufacturer could do a run of 10 sets or something...?

 

[gsxr]

The E60 sat approx 1/2" lower than a normal 500E and it had slightly different (shorter / stiffer) springs, along with different struts/shocks, and thicker front sway bar.

Unfortunately, getting precise specs is impossible without someone putting a caliper or micrometer on genuine E60 springs, along with measuring the exact free length and number of coils. The one set of new E60 springs I knew of in the USA were sold along with the car to a new owner who does not appear to visit any forums on the interwebs. And getting exact measurements (to at least the tenth of a mm, even better if it's more accurate than that) is not easy. Ideally we'd send a set to a US mfr and have them duplicate them but nobody can even obtain a set, let alone be willing to let them out of their sight.

There's a seller on eBay who appears to be selling replicas/copies of AMG and Brabus springs, although he doesn't say they are copies, but the photos do not match the pics we have of the genuine items. I have specs for stock 500E springs and H&R's, since I measured them myself, along with specs from Brabus thanks to a helpful forum member who posted the TUV spec sheet (click here). But so far, that data has never been verified for the E60 springs. I have approxmate data but it's not adequate to commission a production run.

Interestingly, there are some factory MB springs which are very similar to the E60 front springs... it's the rears that are different than any other 124.

 

[Silver Arrow]

I wonder if standard 500E springs can be used as a baseline - then modify for +10% stiffness, and approx 15-20mm lowering? I'm sure for a spring manufacturer, it must be relatively simple, using a spring dyno to understand the specs of the standard 500E springs and then going from there.

 

[need2speed]

Thanks for posting. Could you possibly measure your front and rear ride height? Taken from center of hub to fender lip?

13.5 inches front and 14.0 inches rear

 

[gsxr]

13.5 inches front and 14.0 inches rear

That is VERY close to what my 92 500E measured with H&R's installed (4pt pads front, 1 pt pads rear). Mine was actually a bit lower though; 13.4" front, 13.6" rear with a full tank of fuel, 14.0" rear with an empty tank. This was after SLS was adjusted, btw. Previously the rear end sat a half-inch higher as the SLS was lifting it up.

 

[Silver Arrow]

Anyone have experience with the Bilstein aftermarket shocks and factory 500E springs?

Perhaps lowering the car slightly on, say, 2-bump front pads, and adding Bilstein's will make for a decent compromise between the H+R's super-low front height and the higher factory front height.

 

[gsxr]

I've had Bilstein Sport front struts with stock springs and it works quite well.

 

[fudgitive]

A few snaps of my car after collecting from the shop this afternoon, this is on factory springs with 1 point pads front and rear, SLS adjusted at it's lowest level and 3/4 tank of fuel. I expect it to settle a little over the coming days but my initial observation is that the front came down more than the rear - previously had 4 point front and 2 point rear. The rear knuckle bushes were changed at the same time so that may have negated the effect of the rear pad change. Big improvement with new steering bits and ball joints!

Mechanic suggested that if I want the back lower they are willing to cut a little off the stock springs for me.

 

[Silver Arrow]

A few snaps of my car after collecting from the shop this afternoon, this is on factory springs with 1 point pads front and rear, SLS adjusted at it's lowest level and 3/4 tank of fuel. I expect it to settle a little over the coming days but my initial observation is that the front came down more than the rear - previously had 4 point front and 2 point rear. The rear knuckle bushes were changed at the same time so that may have negated the effect of the rear pad change. Big improvement with new steering bits and ball joints!

Mechanic suggested that if I want the back lower they are willing to cut a little off the stock springs for me.

Nice pics, thanks!

How is the ride quality with the car lowered on factory suspension? Do you notice the reduced suspension travel?

 

[gsxr]

Looks perfect, Fudge! My cars are set up the same way.

 

[fudgitive]

Nice pics, thanks!

How is the ride quality with the car lowered on factory suspension? Do you notice the reduced suspension travel?

The ride quality has improved but the new parts would account for that, have only driven the car a few miles so not noticed reduced suspension travel as yet....

 

[gerryvz]

Indeed, this is what I am intending to do. It's nice to see it in the flesh.

Can someone document the part numbers for each of the front and rear pads of the various sizes? Perhaps a table detailing these part numbers?

Thanks,
Gerry

 

[gsxr]

From the bottom of this text file:
http://www.w124performance.com/docs/mb/W124/124_suspension.txt


============================================
Spring pads / shims
============================================
201-321-09-84 - Front, 1-point (8mm)
201-321-10-84 - Front, 2-point (13mm)
201-321-11-84 - Front, 3-point (18mm)
201-321-12-84 - Front, 4-point (23mm)

201-325-09-44 - Rear, 1-point (8mm)
201-325-10-44 - Rear, 2-point (13mm)
201-325-11-44 - Rear, 3-point (18mm)

 

[fudgitive]

>> and here are the front and rear 8mm pads side by side >>

 

[500AMM]

Hi.

I've just replaced the stock springs on my Limited with H&R. The lengths on unloaded front springs are:
Stock: 380 mm
H&R: 355 mm - giving 25 mm theoretical lowering

I had #1 pads on stock springs giving 388 mm total unloaded length. I didn't want 25 mm lowering with the H&R at front due to too much understeer in hard curving, so I went for #3 pads giving 373 mm total unloaded length - which is 15 mm theoretical lowering.

At rear is the unloaded spring lengths:
Stock: 295 mm
H&R: 292 mm - giving 3 mm theoretical lowering

I had #1 pads on stock springs giving 303 mm total unloaded length. The technical data on the rear H&R springs may indicate they are just slightly softer than stock springs, so I went for #2 pads giving 305 mm total unloaded length - which is 2 mm theoretical lift! When I got the car on road and after some driving, I'm sure I go for #1 pads at rear too, giving 3 mm theoretical lowering.

I think I've read some place that the 500 came with #3 and #2 pads as standard. My set-up brings the car a bit more in level and not so "nose dipping" and reducing the understeer. Previously I had original 18" AMG mono II with 235 and 265 tires, but I replaced them with 17" EVO II wheels with 245/45 tires, and I must say the driving performance became really good living up to my preferences.

So, this is what I've endend up on, but it's always a question about taste and preferences. But the main improvement for me was less understeer. Understeer do depend on a number of parameters, so I'm sure other combinations will work out fine too.

-arnt-

 

[gsxr]

Arnt, your spring measurements are very close to mine, within a few mm anyway. When I had the H&R's on my car I had 4pt front and 1pt rear and the front was still too low. But as long as you're happy with the result on your car, that's all that matters. Remember that you will need to tweak the SLS if you want to lower the rear at all.

Stock 500E's did not all come with the same spring pads - this varies depending on if the springs are "red" or "blue", as noted in this factory document. People tend to swap the pads around (usually installing thinner ones) so it is very hard to say what a car came with from the factory unless you purchased it brand new.

 

[fudgitive]

Nice pics, thanks!

How is the ride quality with the car lowered on factory suspension? Do you notice the reduced suspension travel?

In a word.... YES, it hits the bump stops quite easily at the front now, firmer would be nicer....and I have to be more aware of car park curbing, some front spoiler scratches already :-o

 

[gerryvz]

1-bump front and rear pads, side by side.

FRONT: 201 325 09 44

REAR: 201 321 09 84

 

[Hollybrook]

I think many of you already know this, but I thought I should add it to avoid any confusion.

When you cut a spring to reduce ride height, you are also increasing the spring rate. Often, that is a good thing, because you have reduced the travel in bump and the stiffer spring rate helps you avoid hitting the bump stop. If you are only cutting 1/4 coil off a typical spring, the change is minimal, but if you are cutting a whole coil off, you will notice the difference.

Changing spring pads is similar to adjusting the ride height of a coil-over shock -- it only affects the ride height, not the spring rate.

 

[borring]

I would like to lower my car more at the rear, but I'm actual not sure what kind of stock springs there is mounted on the car.
There is two versions right, standard and sport?
Maybe someone can look it up the part numbers in EPC?

The papers I got from the last 4-wheel alignment (Hunter DSP 600) say "Without sports spring, MB hard springs".

Last question: Regarding the spring pads you refer to in this thread what high in millimeters are you using?

 

[gsxr]

I would like to lower my car more at the rear, but I'm actual not sure what kind of stock springs there is mounted on the car. There is two versions right, standard and sport? Maybe someone can look it up the part numbers in EPC?

The 124.036 only had two rear spring part numbers listed in the EPC... a standard rear spring, and a rear spring for the E500 Limited which was slightly lower/shorter. Since you car is a '92, you'll have the standard springs in there, assuming it's all stock. The Limited rear springs will let you drop the rear about 5-10mm.

The papers I got from the last 4-wheel alignment (Hunter DSP 600) say "Without sports spring, MB hard springs".

You can ignore that. It's just showing what the aligment tech entered for the vehicle type. It really should specify 124.036 chassis, as shown from the dealer alignment printout (click here). Ignore the reference to Sports, hard suspension, etc. That does not apply.

Last question: Regarding the spring pads you refer to in this thread what high in millimeters are you using?

The spring pad thickness varies in mm. You only use these to make small adjustments in ride height. Remember that in the rear you will need to adjust the SLS turnbuckle to lower the car after installing different rear springs and/or thinner spring pads. You did read this whole thread, right?

 

[borring]

Do you have the part number for the E500 Limited rear spring?

Yes, it says 124.036 on the paper

Yeb got it.
When you refer to 1 or 2 pads, Updated -> I just realized the pad point system, this thread has been very helpful, I'll try the 1 point pads, lower SLS and keep my stock springs.

 

[borring]

Is the Limited rear springs one of these?
124 324 3804
124 324 3004

 

[500AMM]

Is the Limited rear springs one of these?
124 324 3804
124 324 3004

Hi Bo.

124 324 3004 are for regular 036
124 324 3804 are for cars with code 958, which is the Limited

 

[borring]

Will the Limited version fit on my regular 036 without any modifications?

I'm going to install new springs and 8mm pads at the rear soon, and would like the extra lowering.

 

[500AMM]

Yes, they fit without problem. I think the Limited springs are some mm shorter. But I measured mine when I replaced them with H&R, and it was almost no difference compared to the regular 036 spring length. I guess the Limited springs are quite more expensive too? (FYI, I've already sold the old springs from my Limited).

For the pad sizes, I recommend to use at least #2 pads at front, maybe #3. That counters the nose diving in curving, and the stanse on the car looks a bit odd IMHO. However, remember to change to shorter bumper stop on the shock absorbers.

 

[borring]

I'm also considering H&R, is it the sports version you have (H&R 29855)?

Do you have a partnumber for the shorter bumper?

 

[borring]

Ok, I have decided to install H&R springs (3-4 point at front and 1-point at the rear).

Regarding the mentioned shorter bumper stop on the shock absorbers - this is not clear for me, can someone post a part number or a picture?

 

[500AMM]

I'm also considering H&R, is it the sports version you have (H&R 29855)?

Do you have a partnumber for the shorter bumper?

Yes, I have H&R 29855.

Ok, I have decided to install H&R springs (3-4 point at front and 1-point at the rear).

Regarding the mentioned shorter bumper stop on the shock absorbers - this is not clear for me, can someone post a part number or a picture?

It's called buffer stops, wrong naming from me, sorry. The shock absorbers have an elastomer buffer on top of the telescopic stem. When the shocker is completely compressed, this buffer provides a soft end stop to avoid damages on the suspension parts. GSXR has good pics of the various buffer stops, I could post a copy, but he is the author of the pics.

About the spring pads - the exact spring lengths may vary a bit, also depending on the age, so the best is to do some trials with several pad sizes. It's a demanding job since the springs have to be compressed to replace the pads. A good spring compressor tool is highly recommended for the job. Please don't use cheap "spring hooks" for this, if you ever find any that fit in, you're handling dangerous forces here.

BTW - what's your first name?

 

[borring]

My name is Dan, sorry for not introducing my-self, but I need to prepare my car for pictures before introducing my-self under OWNERS.

Why do many shops state H&R 29855 without self-leveling, as far as I know all E500E has self-leveling?

 

[gsxr]

All 500E did have SLS. The 29855 springs must be used with SLS. Any shop claiming otherwise is incorrect.

H&R offered a different set of springs for the 500E if SLS was removed, but those are # 30230.

I don't recommend removing SLS unless the car will only be driven on the racetrack.

 

[amrik]

Here is my car on H&R springs and 1 bump pads front and rear.
SLS on its lowest setting (I think) and about a half tank of fuel.

 

[993]

Hi, I'm Paul and i'm also preparing my 500E for the OWNERS presentation..

One quick question: I'm thinking that the best way to lower the car (front&rear with original springs) is putting # 1 pads front and... NO PADS in the rear (keeping in mind the rust problems)
Do I still have to level the SLS without the rear spring pads?

What do the experts think about this posibility to level front and rear??
Thanks in advanced!

 

[gsxr]

If you want the rear lower than it will go with stock springs and 1-pt pads, either cut the rear springs approx 1/4 coil, or buy the Limited rear springs which are slightly shorter. You MUST tweak the SLS to get the car to drop in the rear. If you haven't done that yet, start there BEFORE cutting or replacing springs. I have stock springs in both of my 500's and had to fiddle with the rear to get it slightly lower than stock to avoid the "stinkbug" look...