LSD

[126v8]

Hi I read in an earlier post that speed-autoteile sells LSDs for 500s.I contacted them and they want a part number.Does anyone know the number?Thanks guys

 

[Alpina]

Hi I read in an earlier post that speed-autoteile sells LSDs for 500s.I contacted them and they want a part number.Does anyone know the number?Thanks guys

I dont know about the states,,

but Quaife,, Drexler,, and some others make LSD ........

BUT IT COSTS A LOT

 

[gsxr]

You can buy the factory LSD from any Mercedes dealer. The part number which fits the E500E is 126-350-40-23 and current list price is $1100 USD in the USA. I have one in my car. It's a drop-in upgrade, however it doesn't play nice with ASR when turning at low speeds (i.e., from a stop). There's minimal benefit for street use... it's helpful at the dragstrip and racetrack, but otherwise, save your $$$ and let ASR take care of traction issues.

Quaife makes an LSD unit (QDF5V) which is also a plug & play install. The Quaife unit costs more but has no clutch packs to wear out, so if you can afford it (~$1300 USD plus misc parts & installation) it would be the more desireable LSD unit. I have one of these in my other car (installed summer 2010).

 

[gerryvz]

As an FYI -- a bit unrelated but a fact -- the standard US-model 560SEC and 560SL (W126 and R107 chassis) cars with the 2.47 rear end did come with limited-slip. This was unusual as most Benz models did not come with this feature stock. Not that this helps us with our E500E cars.

Also, as FYI, all of these 126/107 560 cars had ABS. The 1991 model year 126 560SECs had ASR as a factory option -- the first appearance of ASR on any Benz model. This was only specified on a fraction of the SECs brought into the US and was only available that last model year of the C126. I believe it was also available for the W126 560SEL sedans, as well. ASR was never available on the R107 SL models, although as we know it was certainly available on the R129 SL models during their production from model year 1990 onward.

Cheers,
Gerry

 

[diaconovic]

Check this link ,look like they have an application for the 500E .
http://www.brabus.co.jp/f_tuning/tcd.html

 

[gsxr]

Check this link ,look like they have an application for the 500E .
http://www.brabus.co.jp/f_tuning/tcd.html

That looks sweet! But ~$3500 USD is pretty steep for a clutch-type unit that will need periodic rebuilds, and also may interfere with ASR just like the factory clutch-type LSD. That's why the Quaife would be preferred if possible, beside the fact that it's less than half the cost of the TCD, it doesn't wear out and also shouldn't interfere with ASR function.

 

[Glen]

Dave,
How exactly does the clutch type LSD interfere with the ASR? What % lockup are you using? And why would a torsen diff not interfere with ASR?

Thanks,
Glen

 

[gsxr]

Dave,
How exactly does the clutch type LSD interfere with the ASR? What % lockup are you using? And why would a torsen diff not interfere with ASR?

Hi Glen,

1) The clutch action is "notchy" by design... as the spider gears turn, the amount of lockup increases as the teeth fully mesh and decreases slightly between teeth. It's hard to explain but it is VERY obvious when rotating the assembly on the workbench. This "notchy" action confuses the ASR at low speeds, as the ASR computer is too sensitive. Engaging the snow chain switch cures the problem, because that changes the programming to make the system less sensitive. But, it's a nuisance to flip the switch any time you want to accelerate briskly while turning from a stop. Ideally, I'd want to reprogram the ASR system to always engage the "snow chain program" any time the vehicle speed is below 20mph, but that's way beyond my capability.

2) Contrary to popular belief, you cannot adjust the % lockup in a factory LSD. It is what it is. With fresh clutches, it's somewhere in the 30-40% range at best. As the clutches wear, this gradually reduces to near zero. My LSD is fresh and is probably around 35% or so. The Japanese LSD is adjustable because they use a spring pack to load the clutches, instead of relying on pressure from the spider gears. Totally different designs!

3) The Quaife (similar to Gleason-Torsen) does not have clutches, and does not have the "notchy" operation. I chatted with Quaife about this, and they said that it's common for clutch-type LSD's to interfere with traction control or even ABS on some cars, while their design does not. They were quite confident that their LSD would be transparent to the ASR system. Unfortunately it does still interefere with ASR somewhat, although I don't think it's as much a with the factory clutch-type. Neither interference is severe and the snow-chain trick still cures it on demand.

 

[Glen]

Thanks. That makes sense. So, do you still have the LSD installed in your E500?

 

[gsxr]

Thanks. That makes sense. So, do you still have the LSD installed in your E500?

Yup, sure do, a 2.65 LSD. It's working great... helped me earn my first track championship for the 2009 season.

I'm in the process of buying another 500E, and I'd like to build a LSD for that one too. I installed the QDF5V in summer 2010. The OS-Giken would be my next choice after the Quaife if price were not a concern, but that $3500+ price tag is a massive deterrent, especially with the Quaife being less than half that!

 

[brams]

As an FYI -- a bit unrelated but a fact -- the standard US-model 560SEC and 560SL (W126 and R107 chassis) cars with the 2.47 rear end did come with limited-slip. This was unusual as most Benz models did not come with this feature stock. Not that this helps us with our E500E cars.

Also, as FYI, all of these 126/107 560 cars had ABS. The 1991 model year 126 560SECs had ASR as a factory option -- the first appearance of ASR on any Benz model. This was only specified on a fraction of the SECs brought into the US and was only available that last model year of the C126. I believe it was also available for the W126 560SEL sedans, as well. ASR was never available on the R107 SL models, although as we know it was certainly available on the R129 SL models during their production from model year 1990 onward.

Cheers,
Gerry

W126/C126 had ASR I in Europe before R129, I recall the first R129 our dealership received - a 90MY 500SL (ASR II) this was November 1989 and was 90MY, I did the ASR training course way before this, I think summer 1988, certainly there are 90MY 126's in Europe (with ASR I mean).

Cheers
brams

 

[gerryvz]

Yes, ASR I was only offered on 1991 model year C126/W126 cars for the US market, though agreed it was available before this in non-US markets. The R129 was available in the US from MY 1990 but I don't believe ASR was offered on the R129 before it was offered for the C126/W126 (for the US).

Bottom line was the 126 was the first ASR car for the US market.

Cheers,
Gerry

 

[chappardababbar]

Guys, just to get the ball rolling and gauge initial interest in a custom order from Quaife for our cars. I'm in the UK and am more than happy to start a convo with them. Dave mentioned earlier they want 25 orders. How many on here would be interested?

 

[NIIBE]

My never ending marathon race and bottomless swamp 500E

I had used genuine LSD for my 500 E with 2.65 gear, Yet The feeling was so poor that I had to change OS LSD 1.5way. I believe that This one is the best LSD for 500E.
No chattering but 100% lock with traction.
No need to use ASR off switch, because the lock speed is faster than ASR would be off.
And I am trying to change final gear ratio to 3.69 for late 11 second at strip.
You would be found OS LSD at This SEMA SHOW and PRI SHOW.


NIIBE
E500 but too much to list...http://mercedesbenznetcom.blog81.fc2.com/.

 

[gsxr]

Update on this thread:

The QDF5V is available from Europe (and possibly in the USA) without the need for 10+ orders. It bolts in to the 500E diff housing without modifications. I installed one in my '92 500E already (with 2.65 ratio, same as Niibe) and hope to install one in my E500 this winter (also with 2.65 ratio). The Quaife still interferes slightly with ASR but not as much as the factory clutch-type LSD. Both types improve after a few thousand mile break-in period.

The factory clutch-type LSD is, at the moment, no longer available. However, until MB codes the part number such that an order cannot be placed for it, you can always try to place the order & see what happens. Since the factory type has clutches which can wear out, I would recommend the Quaife if you don't mind the higher cost (approx $1400 USD vs approx $800 USD for the factory unit via Parts.com).

 

[gsxr]

Niibe, could you post more information about your OS Giken LSD in your 500E? Do you know the part number to order from OS Giken? Some people on a different Mercedes forum were interested in the OS unit but they could not find application information for which OS LSD fits the 500E differential.

 

[500AMM]

Re: My never ending marathon race and bottomless swamp 500E

I had used genuine LSD for my 500 E with 2.65 gear, Yet The feeling was so poor that I had to change OS LSD 1.5way. I believe that This one is the best LSD for 500E.
No chattering but 100% lock with traction.
No need to use ASR off switch, because the lock speed is faster than ASR would be off.
And I am trying to change final gear ratio to 3.69 for late 11 second at strip.
You would be found OS LSD at This SEMA SHOW and PRI SHOW.

NIIBE
E500 but too much to list...

Hi.

Yes, it would be great with some more info about this LSD. What is the maximum torque it can handle?

-arnt-

 

[NIIBE]

You can reach at OS giken USA. /http://osgiken.net/index.html[url]...URL]http://mercedesbenznetcom.blog81.fc2.com/

 

[500AMM]

Many thanks, Niibe.

I have presumably 780Nm in the SuperMerc, that's what I was told, but I haven't checked it. However, it should still be around 700Nm. So, yes - I fully believe that a supercharged 6.0 can tear the entire driveline into peaces. It is on the limit with everything like wheel bearings and suspension bushes etc.. It depends on the driving moderation. I think I already have a wheel bearing on the way now, it gives a low "tik-tik" when I am backing the car.

-arnt-

 

[whipplem104]

I just wanted everyone to know that the Quaife unit is available in the U.S. I can get these no problem on an individual basis. I have gotten an couple now and there is no issue with getting them other than it takes a while. If you order outside the U.S. the warranty is through your distributor. So you would have to ship it back to the UK to get warranty coverage. The bigger problem is getting the shims from Mercedes for setting up the lash on the gears properly. It took me a few tries using combinations of new ones that I ordered and old ones form other differentials that are no longer avail. I have been looking into getting some made custom. For those of you running high hp I have been looking into the possibilities of putting in a larger differential and half shafts. It would not be cheap but it is doable.

 

[500AMM]

...........For those of you running high hp I have been looking into the possibilities of putting in a larger differential and half shafts. It would not be cheap but it is doable.

Hi.

Interesting news!
But can you explain what a half shaft is?

Regards
-arnt-

 

[whipplem104]

The half shafts are the axles from the left and right side. Just a different term. The problem with our axles is that they are to small.
But upgrading the axle is can be done but the flange is still to small.
This is were a larger rear differential becomes the way to go. The large 215mm differential bolts in our cars pretty much. Then it is just a matter of the axles fitting or getting some made. The problem is for ASR cars the speed sensors make it more difficult. You would have to fix this or dump ASR. I have been thinking about using later style w210/w202 rear spindles with the speed sensor in the spindle. This may be the solution. The other possibility is to simply add trigger wheels to the axles that replicate what is in the stock differential.

 

[gsxr]

I've never heard of anyone breaking the E500E axle shafts / halfshafts even with ~400hp from a 6.0L engine. How common is that type of failure? Perhaps a clutch-type LSD might cause them to fail if the LSD "grabs" one axle and the shock snaps it? I don't think that would be an issue with the Quaife ATB or Gleason-Torsen though.

 

[whipplem104]

I would probably not worry about it with 400hp. I have been running more than that through mine for some time. But if you are supercharging and getting the numbers higher, like in the 600hp range, and plan on doing a lot of hard launches then axles break. Quite a few of the high hp Mercs and Chryslers, which use Mercedes rear end, have broken axles and differentials. The most common is snapping the axle off inside the differential, which ruins it. This is why I was thinking about having custom flanges made out of billet.

 

[jano]

Why does the diff need to fit in the housing? Can't you just remove the housing and leave it open and bare? Newbie here... !

 

[gsxr]

I updated the old posts with new info, Jano. Basically you remove the stock diff (aka gear carrier, what the ring gear bolts to) and replace it with the LSD unit (factory, Quaife, or OS-Giken). Plug & play operation, just not cheap!

 

[J-Sauce]

Ideally, I'd want to reprogram the ASR system to always engage the "snow chain program" any time the vehicle speed is below 20mph, but that's way beyond my capability.

Theoretically, couldn't you use a Bergwerks FGS to accomplish this? Just tap into the wires from the "B Switch" activator, and run them to the snow chain switch. Forgive me if my understanding of how the Bergwerks kit works it way off.

 

[gsxr]

Theoretically, couldn't you use a Bergwerks FGS to accomplish this? Just tap into the wires from the "B Switch" activator, and run them to the snow chain switch. Forgive me if my understanding of how the Bergwerks kit works it way off.

In theory, yes; however I'm not sure it's that easy. IIRC, the snow chain switch didn't operate with simple on/off contacts, it sends two different resistance signals to the ASR module to indicate on or off. It could probably still be done but it would be a bit more work. Also, due to the different speeds desired, you'd likely need a separate BW FGS module for this purposes (separate from the one for the tranny). I may investigate this further at some point, but for now I don't find the problem bad enough to spend a lot of time messing with. However I would be very curious to get another opinion when someone else finally put LSD in their 500, i.e. do they notice the problem at all, or does it drive them nuts?

 

[Glen]

Along the same lines...maybe it wold be easier to interrupt the VSS so that the computer didn't turn off the snow-chain function so early? or not at all?

 

[Alpina]

I am not so good in MB driveline story,, but pretty well informed in BMW saga,,

the Big Diff in BMW is 210 mm casing,, and almost no way to break it .. well in a way not trying to break it

E30 325 have the 188 casing and many turbo powered cars around the globe are running easy 500+ or more at the wheels and everything is ok ..

the W140 M120 car .. is heavy and powerful.. but the diff is not as , MUSCLE , as the Big casing from BMW ,, the axles fro, diff to wheels are also heavy duty .. and i think it is the same for MB

another thing .. why is MB///AMG cars ,, like the SL 55 without LSD or ASD

 

[Cadence]

I want an LSD for my '94. Has anyone actually installed a Quaife into their E500E?

The Quaife only lists it for the 500 SLC, but maybe our cars use the same diff

http://www.quaife.co.uk/shop/products/qdf5v

 

[gsxr]

I want an LSD for my '94. Has anyone actually installed a Quaife into their E500E?

The Quaife only lists it for the 500 SLC, but maybe our cars use the same diff

http://www.quaife.co.uk/shop/products/qdf5v

I have the Quaife in my 1992 500E, you can see it in action by looking to the left of this post - check out the avatar. Ignore the Quaife catalog listing, the QDF5V was originally built for someone who wanted to use it in their 500SLC, but Quaife did not ever update their catalog to indicate what other models it will fit (nor do they appear interested in doing this).

It's 95% bolt in, but requires serious DIY work, or paying a rear-end shop to do it for you. The Quaife weighs about twice as much as the stock open diff and about 50% more than the factory clutch-type LSD. When new it will interfere with ASR when turning & accelerating from a stop, but this will decrease as it breaks in over a few thousand miles.

For the record, I don't consider LSD to be necessary on a street-driven 5.0L car that never sees the racetrack or dragstrip. Nice, yes, but not necessary. My cars visit the dragstrip rather frequently so I need it to ensure that both tyres are warming up properly. On the street, ASR (which also functions as electronic LSD) works very well.

 

[Alpina]

Dave,, what was the cost of the LSD from quaife

 

[remotemark]

Dave,, what was the cost of the LSD from quaife

http://www.streetperformance.com/part/quaife/1369745-qdf5v.html $1255

http://www.nolimitmotorsport.com/prod/QDF5V $1450

Or you might do better buying from UK:

http://www.gearboxman.co.uk/psdiffsquaife.html 775 pounds

 

[gsxr]

The current exchange rate (GBP-->USD) is approx 1.60, so 775 GBP is about $1240 USD. With shipping from overseas, etc it will add up real fast. The Sparktec price of $1255 will likely be cheaper in the long run as they appear to be US-based:

http://www.sparktecmotorsports.com/qdf5v.html

 

[remotemark]

Dave - He's in Iceland, so UK is probably better option.

 

[gsxr]

Mark, Sparktec says they are located in Northern CA, and their website showed ~$15 shipping to Idaho...?

http://www.sparktecmotorsports.com/about.html

Oh, wait - you mean the person asking is located in Iceland. Nevermind - I got it now! You are correct, may be better to buy from the UK then.

 

[dernt]

I've got a 400E differential that was converted over to the MB LSD and 2.82 gears with info from Dave. It is for a non-ASR car, so it won't bolt in your 500E, but it would make a nice upgrade for a go-fast 400E non-ASR. 400Eric are you reading??