Lug bolt question

[DRW]

If I'm going to install 18" W210 monoblocks on a '92 with 15mm spacers all around, what is the correct sized lug bolts? Not sure if it matters for this question, but I'm also going to install later sized LCA's, to accommodate for a silver arrow brake upgrade as well.

thanks in advance...

 

[Klink]

If I'm going to install 18" W210 monoblocks on a '92 with 15mm spacers all around, what is the correct sized lug bolts? Not sure if it matters for this question, but I'm also going to install later sized LCA's, to accommodate for a silver arrow brake upgrade as well.

thanks in advance...

Do yourself a favor, and it will be a favor regardless of which decision you make. Drive it for a while without the spacers. Then if you still have your heart set on the spacers go for it, but at least you will know the difference. Those wheels are already at the perfect offset for good driving characteristics. However if you follow my advice on this, make sure that you have a financially advantageous way to dispose of the spacers after the experiment.

What are you planning to use for rubber? This model is actually disproportionately responsive to high quality rubber...

 

[quicksilver500]

I think stock bolts are 39mm if I remember correctly so http://otisincla.com/index.php?route=product/product&path=116_224_229_230&product_id=1022 those ones?

 

[quicksilver500]

We are also going to need pictures when you get those wheels on.

 

[DRW]

I'm partial to Michelin Pilot SS and in so cal summer rubber is best year round.. What is your analysis of spacers Klink? It sounds like you are familiar with both approaches and I'd like to know the drawbacks of spacers. Thanks!

 

[Klink]

I'm partial to Michelin Pilot SS and in so cal summer rubber is best year round.. What is your analysis of spacers Klink? It sounds like you are familiar with both approaches and I'd like to know the drawbacks of spacers. Thanks!

The Pilot Super Sport is my current favorite HP tire, so I like that a lot. The car will love those. I have had the same PS2's on mine since forever. They were current at the time and because it's not a daily driver, I'll probably have them for a whole lot longer.

Ok, I've intentionally not commented in this direction for fear that I would offend someone. Worst of all, possibly someone that I really like, so this is kind of a "true confessions" moment: I am the single worst person on the face of this Earth to ask about spacers and the like. I have resisted commentary on wheels and tires until people here got to know me a little and realized that I have no dog in this hunt, and I don't mean the slightest disrespect to anyone. Almost everyone that frequently contributes here knows exactly what they are doing and why they are doing it. So it is without the slightest condescension that I say if you love the way your car looks and/or drives, that's all that matters and I am happy for you. No, dammit, that's not from somewhere "above" you! I really am happy! That's what this is all about.

Now that I've said that, to answer your question as to my "analysis" here's a slightly drunk, overly opinionated rant of mine cut and pasted from an e-mail to a person that I met at an MB club related gathering. He had a newly acquired 124 Cabrio. Hopefully people find it entertaining. I put it here with truckload of reservation, but like I said, I think people know me well enough to not get bent about it. Here goes, I'm pulling the trigger...


“ That all said, one of my plans for this car was to put E500 16x8 8 hole wheels on it. Should I scrap that idea now?”
Yes, you should scrap the idea, but the reasons have nothing to do with anything we just discussed (you said “that all said”). I should stick to your question, but I can’t help myself. I LEVITATE when the discussion turns to wheels and tires. I see auras like a migraine sufferer. My eye sockets fill with blood. I am just driven nuts… Why? Because wheels and tires are the single most important parts of the vehicle, even more important than brakes. Yet, almost everything that I have ever seen in person or in pictures that involved “upgrading” wheels and or tires on a M-B was industrial strength stupid. Worse yet, when I point out what is wrong, and it is often wrong fully to the point of being unsafe, someone, usually everyone will say “but it looks good”. That usually makes me even crazier, because it almost never looks good! It usually only looks like you couldn't afford correct wheels and tires and you found these completely inappropriate take offs behind the local "custom" tire store! Maybe I think it looks absolutely appalling because I “see” how this stuff actually works. Then I’m dumbfounded that people in general and car enthusiasts in particular don’t. Isn’t it immediately and intuitively obvious that something is wrong? You can’t see how it “feels” even before you drive it? You can’t see how far the wheels stick out now? You can’t feel how your car literally drives like it is bow legged? Go ahead, stick your legs out there like that. Now walk. That’s what your suspension “experiences” now. You don’t feel how it darts and pulls like a truffle pig on mescaline? How it defies your every effort to drive it smoothly? Nice. Now take that corner that you used to mindlessly breeze through at a high speed despite the presence of some washboard bumps in the apex. Take it at about 60% of the speed that you used to and experience the joy of bouncing into oncoming traffic as the diabolical combination of inadequate tire compliance, incorrect steering and suspension geometries, and high unsprung mass has turned your once compliant, damped, and responsive suspension into palsied flailing thing that attempts to beat the road into submission…. and loses.
Don’t think I’m done, I’m not even starting to start yet. There are ways to change your wheels to other things if you want. Just know that almost everything you have seen and almost everything that will be suggested or approved of, even by acknowledged "experts" will diminish your driving experience, not enhance it. And the reason that no one has “experienced” any of the problems I just described (or had their customers complain about them), is that there isn’t one man in ten thousand with an ego that can survive the admission of what a catastrophic, pleasure destroying experience his “upgrade” has been. And as I said, I haven’t even started on this topic. This is the merest top, transparent layer of the onion skin. It (and I ) get much worse. Sorry for the rant.

As I said, sorry for the rant...


I'm guessing you can surmise that I wouldn't put spacers behind wheels already having the correct offset if a voice from a burning bush told me to do it...

 

[DRW]

Haha. You're awesome..

 

[DRW]

So, all that being said, how would you propose to bring out wheels closer to flush with the fenders all around to deal with the anorexic look of the stock wheels? Is there a wheel that would achieve this goal without spacers and without your eyes filling up with blood? FWIW, I'm truly more of a stock guy to begin with, but the gorgeous fenders of the 500E just beg to be filled up with wheels & tires. I will always have my 8 hole stock rims with proper rubber around for semi-regular use as well.. Also & BTW - will a Silver Arrow upgrade fit beneath a stock wheel with later style LCA's?

 

[Klink]

So, all that being said, how would you propose to bring out wheels closer to flush with the fenders all around to deal with the anorexic look of the stock wheels? Is there a wheel that would achieve this goal without spacers and without your eyes filling up with blood? FWIW, I'm truly more of a stock guy to begin with, but the gorgeous fenders of the 500E just beg to be filled up with wheels & tires. I will always have my 8 hole stock rims with proper rubber around for semi-regular use as well.. Also & BTW - will a Silver Arrow upgrade fit beneath a stock wheel with later style LCA's?

The objective stuff first: no the late 129 brake upsize will not fit behind the stock 16 inchers.

On the subjective stuff of how the wheels look, I don't have anything for you. I don't even remotely perceive it as an issue. They look absolutely correct to me on a car that is intended to be driven, most especially if it's intended to be driven for pleasure. The job of fenders is to keep your wheels enclosed. When they are not enclosed they throw debris and water everywhere and they are an even greater aerodynamic menace than when they are covered. Note additionally that the aerodynamic ill effects increase with the width of the tires.

The fender should allow space enough that even with a large steering angle at speed the suspension is free to bottom without the wheels striking anything. And even if you did not care about that, then it still remains that only a significant increase in wheel and tire width will put the wheels "out there" and maintain correct suspension and steering geometries. Then they are simply too wide for good tracking on a street car like this. Like I said if you're at all moved by this opinion of mine, drive it for a while without the spacers. I don't mean around the block, I mean maybe for a couple hundred miles or so. Then put your favorite spacers on it and see if you can stand to drive it with them. YMMV...

 

[gerryvz]

Silver Arrow brakes REQUIRE both the later LCAs AND a 17-inch wheel. Even better would be 18-inch wheels in terms of brake clearance.

 

[Glen]

re: spacers. What Klink says is correct and anyone wanting to use spacers should consider carefully what he says. Having said that, spacers in and of themselves are not evil. By that I mean if the wheel you want is not made in the desired offset, a spacer can be used to place the wheel in the correct plane. IOW, from the car's perspective, there is no difference between one wheel with a 35mm offset and another wheel with a 45mm offset plus a 10mm spacer. The effective offset is the same and all other things being equal, the car will drive and handle exactly the same with either wheel.

Using spacers to widen the track or simply to make them flush with the fender is another thing. He is again correct that the way the car drives and handles will change. Whether that change is good or bad depends on your own needs and expectations. Everything in life is some sort of compromise, even the specification that MB specified in the original wheels for our cars. If you look at the R129, early examples specified the exact same wheel as our E500E's, yet later R129's have both larger and wider wheels, some with staggered fitments with lower offsets as well. So, the way I see it is that there's room to make changes for both performance and aesthetics without adversely compromising ride and handling. YMMV.

 

[DRW]

All good thoughts and very appreciated...

 

[Klink]

re: spacers. What Klink says is correct and anyone wanting to use spacers should consider carefully what he says. Having said that, spacers in and of themselves are not evil. By that I mean if the wheel you want is not made in the desired offset, a spacer can be used to place the wheel in the correct plane. IOW, from the car's perspective, there is no difference between one wheel with a 35mm offset and another wheel with a 45mm offset plus a 10mm spacer. The effective offset is the same and all other things being equal, the car will drive and handle exactly the same with either wheel.

Using spacers to widen the track or simply to make them flush with the fender is another thing. He is again correct that the way the car drives and handles will change. Whether that change is good or bad depends on your own needs and expectations. Everything in life is some sort of compromise, even the specification that MB specified in the original wheels for our cars. If you look at the R129, early examples specified the exact same wheel as our E500E's, yet later R129's have both larger and wider wheels, some with staggered fitments with lower offsets as well. So, the way I see it is that there's room to make changes for both performance and aesthetics without adversely compromising ride and handling. YMMV.

Indeed, Glen! I don't have the slightest problem with the spacers being used to correct an offset condition. Though I do find they frequently add an additional element of non-concentricity by adding play to the wheel hub interface. A lot of care has to be exercised to avoid that. It is always amazed me how much the tiniest bit of extra play at the hub wheel interface increases shaking at speed.

On the 129/.036 relationship, I have told everyone that has ever asked about this forever that if there was a factory approved fitment for the 129 and it cleared whatever brakes you have on your .036 then it would work perfectly well without any qualification.

 

[quicksilver500]

Right now all that being said, its just physics and hopefully you're going to do what you want anyways.

Bigger wheels need higher spring rates and damping to achieve the same response as the lighter wheels with the lower rates. Wheels sticking out further increase your moment at the suspension pivot which is essentially the same thing. Personally, driving on E55 mono's for 3 years gave me the opinion that I didn't like the way they drive except on the highway when it was dry. Did I sell mine? No because they look great and smooth on the highway is one of my favorite things. The heavier wheel is smoother because the imbalance relative to the system mass is a smaller percentage and they have more inertia. I have argued for years that the silver arrow BBK does nothing except add weight, they work so well they slow down the car while you accelerate! Moment of inertia increases with the square of the radius...so it builds rather quickly, same thing with rotational energy. Have to put more energy in, and you have to take it right back out. Do I still have silver arrow brakes? Yes, because they are big. I like to look at AMG cars and say to my self - "Self, those are some damn fine looking brakes on that car!". So if you add weight or track width you really need a higher spring rate. Not that it really matters for the street. Narrower wheel packages give you lower drag, lighter weight, cheaper tires, a low propensity to hydroplane and not necessarily less traction if you make the right tire choices for the application.

The wider stance might give you less drag. It seems that by closing the wheel to fender gap you would be creating a smoother boundary condition for the wheel well. The air is going to want to follow the fender rap into the wheel well where it would dead head and create maybe a higher pressure zone, so by having a smooth transition you might improve that. Also, doesn't matter. If it does, buy a F12 Ferrari because they have all that covered.

If you like the way it looks and drives do it, because its not going to matter if you drive like a reasonable person. Or an insane person once you learn the car.

 

[500AMM]

Hah - that was really well spoken, Mike!

This is in line with my philosophy regarding taste & preference vs. performance & correct mods. It is a lot of more or less qualified perceptions and worries about big wheels and big brakes on most public arenas. In some cases it's relevant when the ideas is out of reality and may cause potential danger. Big wheels and big brakes does of course affect the handling, that's obvious, but to which extent and when? I keep saying to myself;
- When will I be a good driver that safely outperform the handling on my 036 on street driving?
- When will I really challenge the performance on street and risk totalling the car and harm other people?
- Do I need bigger wheels?
- Do I need bigger brakes?

It's mostly about taste & preference, and that's inovative and fun IMO.

(the boring fact is that the basic needs for cheap and safe body transportation from point A to point B is an electric driven egg shaped plastic creation stuffed with necessary sensors and airbags...fun eh?..)