M119 and M113 - bit of comparison

[Jelmer]

Some day Jelmer hopes to be as muscular as his new avatar is, too

Nah, I hope to have an equally shiny exhaust.

Dreams are good though. Until that first repair bill comes for that M120. I used to see them at my mechanic's in Portland all the time. The mechanics HATED working on them. The customers HATED paying the bills for the labor, and especially on the parts, for them.

Shouldn't have most M120s have all the standard maintenance done by now? I.e., replacement of the MAFs, ETAs, Wiring harness, etc? That would mean most large costs have been taken care of, right?

Also, if you're doing most of the work yourself, I'd guess it'd be OK. You'd need your own workshop for that, though, but still.

I'd love to have one...

 

[gerryvz]

You obviously haven't priced out things like EZLs, computer modules, wiring harnesses, ETAs, fuel injectors, and other parts for the M120. And these parts DO wear out and require replacement.

An M120 is essentially two M104s joined at the crank. And that means that most all ancillary items, electronics, and so forth are doubled.

Getting out of an indy shop with less than a $5K bill on an M120 car is a blessing .... and also a rarity.

Cheers,
Gerry

 

[alabbasi]

It's no secret that MB entered a dark era when Jurgen Schremp rose to the top of the company. That's why very few of us here have W210s because we all know they are trouble prone and in general inferior to the W124. I'd love to have those better working headlights, 5 speed automatic, Bosch ME engine management, OBDII diagnostics, and double control arm front suspension, but I know I'd be asking for nothing but trouble if I got one. We ALL know that, that's why we don't have one!

I hear this a lot from W124/W126 owners and I'm sure that W124 owners have heard similar commnts from W123 owners back in the day. I put it down to people's resistance to progress, coupled with Chinese whispers.

Here's my experience with the W210:

I've owned my 1997 E420 for about 10 years on and off. I bought it at around 60k miles, sold it at around 140k miles to a friend and bought it back at 170k miles.

In between the time I sold it and bought it back, I drove a 91 560SEL as my daily driver.

My E420 now has 193k miles. In the last 9 or so years, the most expenisve failure was a catalytic converter that should have been replaced under warranty (but was not).

It it also the spring perch failure which was repaired by MBUSA.

The car had never let me down and the month to month running costs are a fraction of what I spend on any of my other Mercedes Benz. Furthermore, I put more miles on this car then any of my other cars. When I had the 560SEL as my daily, I rotated it with a US 560SEC, Euro 560SEC and a 6.9 so I put much fewer miles on that car, but spent much more on it.

Aside from known rust issues which don't really exist here in Texas, I don't see any other build quality issues.

My car has 193k miles and always sits outside. It's very presentable for a 16 old car, the leather is crack and split free, the wood still shines and is dark and the paint is still glossy. There is also not a drop of oil on the outside of the engine

I've never owned a W124 but I did test drive a 95 E420 before buying the W210 and it felt old by comparison. I've owned several W126 models which are supposed to be the ultimate Mercedes Benz in terms of build quality. They have had similar mileage to the E420 and while they feel heavier, they wear out faster and do not look as good on the inside or the outside once they reach the kind of miles that my E420 has, unless it's been garaged and coveted.

My E420 is still pretty quick, and will do 24mpg while the A/C freezes you out in a 110 degree Texas summer.

In the 10 years that I have owned it. The only repairs that I've had to do is aside from preventative maintenance have been:

Catalytic converter
Xenon igniters (bought used on ebay)
Transmission conductor plate
Big vacuum line to air mass sensor
Control arm bushings
Spring perch
Blinker stalk
Condenser
Radiator
Auxially fans
Fan clutch
Window regulator on rear window
Tail light assembly (every couple of years)
Blower motor regulator
It's a fairly small list when considering that it spans almost 10 years and 130+k miles.

I still own a couple of W126's along with a few older cars, but I don't think I ever want to go back to driving one daily. The odd thing about this E420 however is that I bought an 02 E55 to replace it and I barely drive that either.

My E420 is now worthless and is only really now starting to show wear and tear on the outside. I don't think that I'll be selling it in a hurry though as it's still one of the nicest driving cars that I own.

These cars are pretty simple and easy to work on, they also pretty reliable. I opted for an 02 E55 as my new modern for that reason. I could have bought a W211 E55 or E550 which are both more powerful, but the complexity of the airmatic suspension, ABC and 722.9 don't make them DIY friendly, and I kind of like to tinker on my own cars.

 

[gsxr]

Minor tidbit: The 1997 E420 has a M119.985 engine and 722.6 transmission, which is a VERY nice powertrain. The 1998-up W210 changed to the 4.3L M113 engine and was badged E430. Sounds like you got a pretty good example of the W210.

 

[195910]

We used to own a 1996 E320 during the W210 Production days, plus we imported at least a dozen W210 second hand from Germany... It was the car to have in 1996-2002.

These cars had super solid Engines and transmissions (M104, M119, M111 & coupled to a 722.6) Even later models with the M113 and M112 (reliable but feels commercial). The electronics were not bad with the Bosch ME and HHT&DAS diagnosis...

Main problems were:

- Did not have a Tank feeling like the W124 & W126... but was a quality car.
- Rust was major issue in Europe, especially UK !
- The new electronics and the need for diagnosis was an issue for untrained mechanic...they messed up most of the cars.

But overall it the commercial feel of the W210 that made MB enthusiasts forget about it ..now it just doesn't represent everything a Mercedes-Benz is/was.

 

[gerryvz]

Reminder: This is an engine/powertrain-focused thread about the M119 vs. the M113, not a chassis contrast thread on the W210 vs. W124.

That debate's been had elsewhere on the site

 

[alabbasi]

Sorry guys, I did not mean to throw the thread off to a tangent. As far as M119 vs M113. My comparison would not be fair as the M113 is an E55 and is balls out fast, whereas the M119 is an E420 and is still pretty fast. I will say that the M119 is a smoother engine and probably easier to work on for routine servicing as spark plugs and oil packs are right on top of the valve covers.

I'm not looking forward to doing the back plugs on the E55.

 

[93socal400e]

I found a thread I have some relevant info on.

I have a '93 M119 of the 4.2L size in a W124 and a M113 of the 5.0L size in a W209.

The M119 I have had for 4 years, the only leak it has had is from power steering and that was fixed.

If it wasn't for the fall apart wiring, the engine would have been bulletproof. I have never even had any of the clicking from valvetrain that others have mentioned.

The M113 is much younger and newer. The 7 speed auto is able to keep it down low where it is most impressive. I DO notice that it doesn't shine as much at high revs as the 400e does. I wish I had put a 2.65 or 2.82 rear on the 400e, the 2.24 keeps it feeling rather tame below 30 or so. The M113 is much more on the ferocious side due to a 2.65 rear combined with lower 1st and many more gears to flip through.

I also wish that the M119 had a more aggressive sound. The M113 in a CLK is allowed to speak it's mind when you lean on it. With the windows down you can really hear the rattling growl.

On the mileage front, they both stink around LA, what with stopping every 15 feet and never getting past 25 MPH. The CLK gets truly poor mileage, reminding me of a certain Big Block Chevelle I drove in high school that rarely broke into double digits. Yes, I have been getting 10-12 MPG around LA in a car that can be confused with an economy car from a distance. Part of this is due to it being SO DAMN FUN to lean into it. Turning off the ESP allows one to break the 245s free at will. The M119 does 15-17 or so in town, and I do give it a good goosing here and there but it isn't in danger of breaking into single digits.

Out on the freeway the 400E has thrilled me with 70-100 MPH bursts that finally let that M119 do what it does best. Certainly the difference between these cars shrinks at speed, the M119 ready to leap past 100 MPH with little provocation. The 400E uses those 2.24s to it's advantage on the freeway, where I have regularly hit 27-29 MPG on long runs up the 5, going 80+ and running the AC the whole time. (I wanted so bad to hit 30, but it never did) The M113 starts getting breathless as revs increase but it just flips through it's never ending selection of gears to hide this. However, somehow it never beats the M119 at the mileage game. I haven't seen more than 24 MPG from the M113 but then it is a 5.0. But somehow I don't think it will ever be knocking on 30 MPG like the 400E.

The M119 has been solid and stable, I wish I had enough parking to keep them both. And I wish I could try the M119 with an exhaust system that let it speak up, and some gears that let it seem a little more assertive below 30 MPH.

I rebuilt that Big Block twice myself, for things that never would have worn out on either of these motors. They are both wonderful. The only other motor that was similar to me was when I had a 928 5 Spd. The M119 design looks like a race engine from when I was a kid. No compromises.

 

[JohnnyCash]

Hi guys, I have been reading this forum ever since I wanted 500E / E500 but never got one. I had a W124 300CE-24 which was excellent (as a daily driver) and recently acquired a W126 500 SE. I love the W126 platform, for me, it's the ultimate luxury youngtimer. We have several other MB in our family so I get to drive W210, W221, W201 etc. but W126 still is the best for me.

The reason I ran into this thread is I was looking for M113 vs M119 comparison. The M117 in my W126 will be needing a complete rebuild soon and I was thinking there are several options:

1) my local MB Service job hours and parts costs (I have tried several indy's and while they can be good for something, I didn't find a reliable one whom I would trust with this huge job) (5.000 - 10.000 EUR)
2) buying a whole new M117 from VAETH (12.000 EUR) www.vaeth.com
3) probably another engine (M113? M119? M273?) like www.mechatronik.de does (pricey I know)

I am fully aware of the costs but I'm planning on keeping the car forever so in the long run, I don't regret money well spent. The question is, if it makes sense to look elsewhere than rebuilding the M117.

I deeply respect some of you who can rebuild engines yourselves.. I'm more into computers than hard-core technical stuff. Looking forward to hear your ideas. Thank you.

 

[jhodg5ck]

What makes you believe your M117 needs a complete rebuild? That's fairly rare.. Often these pistons/rings/cylinders are good for Well north of 700,000 kilometers w/o refurbishment.

I would sooner suspect the cylinder heads are the likely culprit...

If you have time and Some aptitude you can do heads yourself. If oil pressure is low @ idle it would be best to pull the engine and replace the main and rod bearings, give you a chance to re-seal everything as well.

I wouldn't drop a 113 in a 126..that would Totally change the character of the car, and not for the better IMHO.

119 swaps are cool, but don't kid yourself, they are a LOT of work, even when you stick w/ CISE etc..

Curious to hear more about your current engine.

Jono

 

[gsxr]

Jono is correct. The M117 (and M119) almost never need a full rebuild. What's the problem with your current motor?

 

[JohnnyCash]

Thank you both for the optimism. You are right the character of the car is perfect. I'm not missing horses and the whole car is well balanced (unlike W221 500 2008 which could have had more oomph and had weak brakes for my liking). The W126 500 (I replaced the whole exhaust, incl. the catalytic convertor and lambda, also all ignition parts) has now the same consumption as W221 V8 (comparing both S450 and S500/550), the difference is only in horse power and character.

Current mileage is 218,000 Km and problems are:

1] After measuring the chain tolerance (sorry for my English but you know what I'm talking about) it's 8 degrees. So that means chain, rail guides, chain tensioner and while in there, I'm sure there will be other bits to replace too.

2] You can hear ticking from both sides. The ticking is not related to the temperature of the engine and is not present all the time, it seems like it disappears and comes back. I checked hydraulic tappets using hammer method from MB Service Manual and everything seemed alright. Also, camshafts are like new, nicely smooth.

3] Motor is not 100% calm, sometimes is shaking (I believe this can be related to the chain?) but not much.

4] What started worrying me was a dense white smoke from the exhaust - happened yesterday. And I thought - Alright, it's the head gasket. But there's no reason for that, I'm a very careful car user.

 

[gerryvz]

Well, replacing the chain (and you SHOULD do the tensioner, and chain rails at the same time) isn't that big of a deal on the M116/M117. It's a "do it yourself" job even for folks with only moderate experience.

With regard to the ticking - did you check the condition of the camshaft lobes and the followers (the rockers that the lobes hit)? M117s are notorious for eating camshafts due to poor lubrication with the oil formulations that have changed in recent years. A visual inspection of the cams and followers (remove the valve covers, obviously) will tell you a lot. Also hopefully you don't have a lot of sludge crap in the engine.

If the motor is shaking, it's quite often the motor mounts + transmission mount. Are those in good condition? They are only good for around ~100,000-120,000 km.

As for the white smoke -- usually the M117s leak oil from the head gaskets, not coolant. So this could be several things. Was the weather cold and the exhaust just heating up, so the white smoke was condensation in the exhaust system and not coolant? Has your car been losing/burning coolant? Open the coolant expansion tank. Do you see any evidence of oil in there (i.e. does it look like a McDonald's chocolate milk shake or is it just clear coolant? The condition of your intake manifold gaskets could also be something to be concerned about/check out.

Usually with the M117s, the brass valve guides and rubber valve guide seals are what wear after 225,000 km or higher. This will result in blue smoke particularly when the engine is first started up, or when you are at a stop light and you pull away. But it only lasts a couple of seconds. This is because the worn valve guides let oil travel down along the valve stems and into the combustion chamber, when the car is sitting with the engine running. So when you start moving the oil that leaked down then burns off, resulting in the puff of blue smoke.

I would recommend that you consider just getting a used engine rather than getting a rebuilt one, or rebuilding the one that you have. As Jono said, it is usually only the top end that has to be rebuilt, and the bottom end will last upwards of 600-700,000 km. it is not worth the time or hassle of installing a more modern engine M119, M113, etc. into your 126 in my opinion. The M119 (which a number of people have done) is an interesting project but I think the car is best left with the drivetrain that it originally came with. It is not that difficult to rebuild the M117 engine (and it would be extremely easy with the engine removed from the car, in your workshop). I don't know if you saw my thread about this job but I did it a couple of years ago with the engine in my car. It was a great experience and gave me a lot of confidence in terms of what I can do to maintain all of my cars. The main limiting factor is time, of course. Other than that, the sky and your imagination are the limit !!

Cheers,
Gerry

 

[JohnnyCash]

Hi Gerry and folks,

so following your thoughts and experience I ditched the idea of buying the completely new engine from another MB (eg. M119, M273 etc.) from that posh tuning company and also wasn't a big fan of the newly rebuilt M117 from VAETH (http://www.vaeth.com/motorentechnik/mercedes/motoren/m117.html), to be honest partly because in the 1st case they didn't reply to my inquiry so I decided not to bother and further investigate this issue on my own, eventually go with the golden middle way. Still, it's at least 20,000EUR in the 1st case, about 12,000EUR in the 2nd and my version of DIY is about 5,000EUR.

What you asked was the engine and transmission mounts - they were all replaced just two months ago.

The white steam always appeared only after a short cold drive in a cold weather so I calmed down, however, during my recent trip (about 1,000miles ± 1,600Km) south (Italy and Slovenia) I found out the clacking noise increased a little and also the engine consumes oil - about 1l every 600miles ± 1,000Km.

Returned home I decided to check it inside and do the chain + tensioner + guides + all the tooth wheels. The good thing is the engine is quite clean inside.
We have discovered the oil consumption is the 8th valve leak so I think it's exactly what Gerry said ("Usually with the M117s, the brass valve guides and rubber valve guide seals are what wear after 225,000 km or higher.") so hopefully replacing this will solve this issue.

Based on a previous recommendation from one local Mercedes guy I have ordered all new hydraulic tappets so now I got them even though they might not be needed (I can return them for a fee or use them so I guess I will replace them now while we are doing it all..). We checked the camshafts and they look fine. We'll see how the rockers and the followers look like when the camshafts are down.
I have also ordered numerous rubber and plastic parts as they are rock hard after years of heat..
Made some quick photos when I was in the shop to check it out on Friday..you can see the old brown guide rails there. The engine has now 222,000Km.

 

[JohnnyCash]

Higher res. close-up of the camshaft. Looks fine, doesn't it?

 

[gerryvz]

Cam looks GREAT! It's quite often the passenger-side cam you have to worry most about.

Hopefully you ordered new cam oiler tubes and plastic nipples where the tubes attach to the cam towers. The plastic nipple kits are cheap and really should be done when the chain rails are done. The cam oiler tubes are moderately expensive but a good idea to replace as well. If you choose NOT to do this, then be sure to carefully clean out the inside of the tube, including all of the oil squirter holes along its length.

Those rails have root beer/Coca-Cola color so yes they are very overdue for replacement.

I'd also replace your chain tensioner -- only use the (expensive) factory part for this !!! But it looked like you said you would be doing this.

Unfortunately it sounds like you have worn valve guides, and the only solution to this (despite what some people say about just replacing the valve stem seals, which is a very temporary bandage fix) is to pull the heads and have new valve guides pressed into place. If you plan to keep the car, this makes sense to do. Your heads will be good for another 280-300,000 km this way.

Also it's important that you are using the right oil with an additive package that can protect those cams!! There is NOTHING like the factory cams so you want to preserve and protect them as much as possible. Using good oil is job #1 for this.

Cheers,
Gerry

 

[JohnnyCash]

Very well! Both Cams look the same.

I have ordered just the nipples, added the oiler tubes to the order just now.

Yes, the chain tensioner will be replaced too. There were guys who told me you can replace only the chain by passing it through but this is not the real solution.

Why do you think the valve guides are worn? Shouldn't this defect be present also at all the other valves as they all should pass out gradually? I will discuss the valve guides and pulling the heads today with the mechanic. I'd like to have the car sorted by the end of the next week so not sure how compatible this is. Of course I'd like to do it properly so if there's no other way we'll do it.

Regarding the oil - you read my mind, I just wanted to ask you that. I've seen in your thread you recommended 20W50 a year ago. The original oil for the W126 M117 should be 15W40. However, I bought the car with 10W40, according to the service history, it's been used by MB Germany all the time. Also, our MB dealership don't sell 15W40, they do sell 20W50 in a nice vintage box but I believe it's only up to -5C and is supposed to be for older gen MBs'? I have also tried Metaltec / Militec oil additive in the past so I planned to use it again. Any experience with oil additives and what do you think is the best oil for the M117 for colder climate?

 

[gerryvz]

Oil should depend on the climate you live in and as a "generic" weight oil I would definitely recommend 10W-40 or 15W-40. As I live in a warmer climate I can get away with a thicker oil.

DO NOT use any oil additives. Just use oil with the proper viscosity & additive package (I.e. ZDDP) for older engines with flat-tappet valve trains. This is very important. Today's current grade oils DO NOT have these additives in the levels that your car needs.

As for valve guides: ALL M117s wear out their brass valve guides starting around 250,000 km and they will start using some oil. Eventually you'll see the blue smoke at startup or like I did, when pulling away from a long traffic light. Many people try to "fix" this condition with a $600 valve seal replacent, but this will perhaps buy one a year, perhaps two. The bullet has to be bitten, and a $6,000 cylinder head refurbishment is what's really in order.

The good thing about this is that it also takes care of the ever-present head gasket oil leaks, from the rear corner of the gasket, which starts small and eventually grows. On US cars this drips oil onto the rear crossover pipe, burns off, and you get a nice oil smell in the cabin. This too (along with the blue smoke) is a cue that its time for the heads to come off.

Bottom line is that the job should be done right if you want to keep the car. It's a great time to replace all of the soft items like vacuum lines, rubber hoses and connectors underhood, check operation of the injectors, etc.

Once everything is back together and set up right, you'll be amazed. The engine will run with a certain "crispness" that is hard to describe. It will have plenty of power and will feel pretty eager to get up & go.

Cheers,
Gerry

 

[Christian_K]

As a recent owner of a M113Kompressor engine, i can tell you that i still support my initial opinions about this engine.
Compared to the M119 it runs rough, its loud and its overall a very simplistic engine mechanical wise. If i look at the heads, not even talk about look under the valve-covers and then compare it to the M119, i start to laugh hard. They are 50% that wide alone by the size.
Good is therefor and because of other things, the easy maintenance compared to the M119 if it goes to mechanical issues. Replace valve lifters and dont even have to take cams out/cam wheels and chain off - LOL!!!
Also very good is the Engine software/ECU and the things you can do with it with the Star Diagnosis. Way ahead of M119 obviously.

Good is also the power from the M113 Kompressor...My car was at AMG "Manufaktur" (today known as performance center) before delivery and has 550HP (DIN) and 750NM (DIN) aswell as no V-Max limiter. Boy it pushes hard and if you turn on that little button called "ESP Off", which i now covered with a red cross made of tape, you are always just one step before slamming into the next wall, house, car, whatever there is.
Lately i was driving 300km/h and it still goes and goes further, but i stopped because such speeds are very hard to manage even at German Autobahn because of the traffic with to much stupid people.

A factory M119 Kompressor or Bi-Turbo would have been amazing... Or the current 5.5L Bi-Turbo which is probably un-affordable for me the next 10-15 years... Dreaming of a E63S AMG cabrio/convertible with 4WD... 3.6seconds to 62mph... any questions?

 

[JohnnyCash]

Hi, so everything has been done and the engine works really fine now. It was totally worth it, these engines are fantastic. I'm using 20W50 oil and it seems like the M117 loves it.

 

[gerryvz]

Yes I've been using 20W-50 oil (Brad Penn) in my M117s and for southern climates where it doesn't get too cold, it works quite well.

So can you start a thread in the 126 sub-board and detail the work that you had done to your M117?

 

[Lambo_Rambo]

Hi everyone, I'm new to the board, although I've been reading the forum for a while. First to say, english isn't my native language, so excuse my mistakes and may be strange word order I'd like to add my opinion to the thread.

I completely agree on every single point 400Eric made. Let's see some facts - 4.2 M119 is producing the same power as 4.3 M113, however the 4.2 M119 has higher CR than 4.3 M113. As we all know the real deal is the 5.0 M119, which has higher torque than 4.2's peak torque through almost it's complete rev range.. 5.0 M119 has more power and more torque than 5.0 M113, despite the M113 having 0.1 higher CR. And then M119 5.0 AMG makes more or less the same power as the "5.5" AMG M113, but there you could say forces are equal - M119 has 0.5 higher CR, M113 has half a liter higher displacement. But the new engine is supposed to be better in every single aspect compared to the old one (like the 273 is way way better than 113). The M113 was just a step backwards, (as is the M112 IMO), and that is why Mercedes is a step behind speaking of engine generations, compared to their main rival - BMW. M273, although based on M113 block, could easily be the successor of M119, instead of M113, which could have been skipped. The only thing M273 has more than M119 is VVT on the exhaust camshafts, sequential fuel injection and..? nothing else.. Thats the differences between latest edition M119 and the M273. And is that what a decade of engineering did? A decade in which M112 and M113 engines "ruled". The 90 degree V6 M112 with balancing shaft was a complete joke, but thats another topic. It was just the AMG SC versions of M112 and M113 which redeemed some of the M112/113 nonsense. And I forgot to mention the variable lenght intake manifold on M113, which is the main reason M113's peak torque figures come at 1000rpms lower. That may be is improvement compared to the old heavy (17kg with throttle body, fuel rail and injectors) M119 intake manifold, and may be is the only reason M113 is even close to M119's performance, without it, M113 would be a complete joke. MB could have continued developing the M119 instead of designing the new M113 engine. There is a lot that could be done with the M119 - VVT on the exhaust camshafts, lighter plastic intake manifold, may be with the variable lenght runners system, better exhaust manifolds, ECU refining and there you have the M273 engine, but a decade earlier. M119 could easily be developed to beat the S65B50 engine in E39 M5 with like adding ITB's to the 5.0 AMG version, as we know the W210 E50/E55 was never even close to E39 M5 performance.

As Eric said, Mercedes kind of admitted their mistake by going back to DOHC 32 valve single spark plug heads. I wonder why would MB design the M112/113 engines, when they had a perfectly good DOHC V8 to work on. As for the V6, Mercedes have just made a propper 60 degree DOHC single spark plug V6, without balancing shaft, a few years ago. Before that for 15 years the 90 degree V6 stupidness ruled, and for what? To have V6s and V8s on the same platform.. I don't consider myself a big engine guru, but I haven't heard of such nonsense from another manufacturer.

Then is the R&P vs steering box problem you mentioned. R&P is just inferior compared to the steering box. As one of the E65 W210 articles said - the steering feel is bad in the W210. And it really is. During the V8 conversion of my W201, I had to change the steering box with W210 rack, and boy what a difference.. The rack is just awful!! Completely oposite reallity to the widely spread thinking (more like confusion I'd say) that R&P is better.. I won't get in details with all the problems I encountered with replacing the box with R&P, I'll just comment the feeling. I can't speak generally of R&P, but I have a lot to say for the W210 rack in particular. I have to say I never appreciated the steering box, right to the moment I tried the W210 rack. It has absolutely no feedback at all. There isn't that direct feeling when you hold the wheel. I've been doing some driftng and the W210 rack is just bad, you have absolutely no idea where the wheels are pointing while steering. I think I fixed that a bit when I removed the racks bushings, and installed custom made polyamide bushings. As you know, steering box has no bushings anywhere, it's all hard connection from steering wheel to front hubs.

As for the fuel economy you said it above - you would't expect a newer car, with over drive 5th and generally better gearbox, way better aerodynamics, and infact with a less powerful engine, to have worse fuel economy? If during that 3k mile trip mentioned above, the SL500 was limited to 4th gear, I think it would be a different story with the fuel economy.



P.S.: As I am more of W201 guy (I have owned a few W201) you might be wondering what I'm doing here, as I said above on one of my 190s I did M119 V8 conversion, with 5 speed getrag manual gearbox and standalone ECU. Would there be any interest to post a thread for my car, and if there is - in which section it will be appropriate to do it?

Regards
Valentin

 

[400Eric]

Yes, I for one would LOVE to see a thread on your car! Where ever they tell you to put it! Please post a link here in this thread!

Regards,
Eric

 

[Glen]

re: Valentin's M119 W201, here's his thread on 190Rev: http://forum.190rev.net/showthread.php?39595-Help-needed-M119-5-0-conversion&highlight=m119

 

[400Eric]

Thanks for the link!

So I'm assuming things are fine in Carlsbad now. Why no update in that thread? I've been waiting anxiously! (We ALL have!)

 

[gsxr]

As Eric said, Mercedes kind of admitted their mistake by going back to DOHC 32 valve single spark plug heads. I wonder why would MB design the M112/113 engines, when they had a perfectly good DOHC V8 to work on.

I believe this was mentioned earlier in this thread, but the primary driving force behind the M113 was, AFAIK, both reduced emissions and reduced cost of manufacturing, while maintaining similar (not identical) power output. I think some of the early M113 sales literature was gushing about the emissions reduction provided by the newfangled 3v/SOHC setup. There's no mystery or smoking gun here. We're just fortunate that MB made the M113 strong enough to survive being pushed to 600-700hp in supercharged form (i.e., in the W211.076) with basically stock internals (rods, pistons, etc). The real crime is that MB never made a factory supercharged M119!!

 

[400Eric]

I'm very sorry, but "reduced cost of manufacturing" is really, REALLY low on my list. I want my money's worth! And I want a car company that will give me my money's worth! And to be honest, for what they are charging for their cars, they can afford to put a little more engineering content into them! Like they used to do! These days, EVERYBODY has 4 valve engines!

 

[400Eric]

re: Valentin's M119 W201, here's his thread on 190Rev: http://forum.190rev.net/showthread.php?39595-Help-needed-M119-5-0-conversion&highlight=m119

Looks like you've got to be a memeber to view the thread. That doesn't make any sense. I think I've already seen the car over there. It's blue isn't it? I also seem to remember that it doesn't have distributors, like an ME engine.

 

[gsxr]

I'm very sorry, but "reduced cost of manufacturing" is really, REALLY low on my list. I want my money's worth!

I'm pretty confident that "reduced cost of manufacturing" is was really, REALLY high on the Mercedes bean counter list at the time. And that they really didn't care what you thought about it. Sorry dude.

 

[gsxr]

I think I've already seen the car over there. It's blue isn't it? I also seem to remember that it doesn't have distributors, like an ME engine.

Yes, it uses standalone engine management, without distributors.

 

[400Eric]

I'm pretty confident that "reduced cost of manufacturing" is really, REALLY high on the Mercedes bean counter list at the time. And that they really didn't care what you thought about it. Sorry dude.

And THAT is EXACTLY why MB quality went down into the toilet, so far that the whole company damn near went down with it! And why A-hole Jergen is no longer around. He should have spent more money on quality and content, and less on buying and ruining other car companies!

Yes, it uses standalone engine management, without distributors.

Don't some older standalones still use dizzys? I seem to remember that he did his swap quite some time ago.

 

[gsxr]

And THAT is EXACTLY why MB quality went down into the toilet, so far that the whole company damn near went down with it!

It's part of the reason, but I'm sure there were many other factors. On the bright side, MB managed to turn things around fairly well, and make some pretty neat stuff (i.e., the 2014 E63 S-model). Time will tell if these newer models fall apart in 10-15 years, or not.

Don't some older standalones still use dizzys?

Could be. I've spent near zero time investigating standalone systems... don't have any need for it personally.

 

[400Eric]

I agree. LH ain't that bad. ME's OK too!

 

[quicksilver500]

Actually, while they seem cool, the new motors have plenty of problems. Idler chain gears coming apart on the early m156's, head bolt issues on m157's, plastic oil pans and electric oil pumps. Jono was explaining how balance shafts eat themselves or something also. They won't make it, but its for a market that doesn't care. We are not their primary market, their primary market trades the car in after 3-4 years for the new model. Their other market buys CLA's so they can have a taste of the Mercedes Fiesta. They care about the cars being safe, exclusive, and expensive. I told my parts guys when I saw the 2014 S-class driving down the road the first thing I thought was, "Damnit the new Genesis looks pretty good this year!" He was not amused, but had nothing to say.

M113 was a damn fine motor, engineering masterpiece. Not mechanically fancy like a M119 but it takes a TON of engineering to make a platform as reliable and powerful as that. They will certainly outlive the cars they were dropped into.

 

[gsxr]

I told my parts guys when I saw the 2014 S-class driving down the road the first thing I thought was, "Damnit the new Genesis looks pretty good this year!" He was not amused, but had nothing to say.

I saw a late model S-class up close recently... not sure what year, but I think it was a late W221. The fender "flares" screamed "Nissan Altima". I don't know how they sold any of those monstrosities. I haven't seen much of the W222 but it wouldn't surprise me if it's a Genesis clone. Bleagh.

M113 was a damn fine motor, engineering masterpiece. Not mechanically fancy like a M119 but it takes a TON of engineering to make a platform as reliable and powerful as that. They will certainly outlive the cars they were dropped into.

I don't yet own an M113, but despite the griping about the design downgrades, I think the lack of horror stories about it says a lot. Particularly since it's been out since the late 90's!

 

[400Eric]

Again, it's a 4 valve world now kiddies. I'm always being ridiculed for puzting around with 2 valve M103 engines. Well, a 3 valve ain't much better! Look, even Ford trucks have dropped their 3 valve engines in favor of 4 valve engines! Ford fricking trucks for crying out loud! This day and age, an engine has to be reliable, economical, AND powerful! It's just the cost of staying in business! Do it right or sell-out to the Chinese! There's simply NO other way!

 

[gerryvz]

I like to talk to a variety of sources to get a general "feel" for these things. From the conversations I've had with multiple knowledgeable (i.e. repair MBs for a living) folks over the years, the consensus on the M113 has turned out to be pretty good, after some skepticism early on. Most folks (and I'm talking about shop owners, parts guys, machine shop owners, etc.) think the M113 is very reliable and roughly as good or perhaps a bit better than the M119.

However, all of them to a man have told me that the M119 is the far better engineered engine, and is always preferred. Doesn't have the aftermarket performance mods available to it (if desired) but they believe it's about as bulletproof as they come. Many folks like the M117 (upon which the M119 is based) as well, noting that it's older-school technology which has its ups and downs.

I continue to hear complete horror stories about the newer (post-M113) engines such as the M273 in terms of reliability of components all over the engines. Not good. Same with the current 7-speed and 9-speed MB automatic transmissions. Really bad stories -- when I was visiting Sun Valley Transmission last month they were pulling a transmission from a Benz which had less than 50,000 miles on it, because they transmission had failed. And Marc said they are seeing a LOT of that. He believes the 722.3 and 722.4 units were very robust/reliable, and also generally had good things to say about the 722.6 with the exception of the "ATF wicking" action up the cable to fry the computer.

There is no question, though, as has been stated earlier in this thread, that the M113 was designed in an era of cost-reduction and was optimized for emissions and cost-savings (modular & designed to be produced on the same line as the M112 V-6). The huge cost and complexity of these powertrains (twin plugs, multiple O2 sensors, etc.) really do, IMHO, make them very difficult and cost-prohibitive even for the DIYer to run and maintain. It's one reason I went with the M104 in the G-wagen (G320) I just purchased, rather than going with a post-2001 model G500, with all of the inherent complexity associated with the M113.

It is interesting that MB has seen the error of their ways and is going back into production, for the 2016 model year, with a next-generation inline-six engine that will appear across their model line.

Cheers,
Gerry

 

[gerryvz]

I'm always being ridiculed for puzting around with 2 valve M103 engines.

I don't think this statement is correct. I think you've more been ridiculed for just being 400Eric, no?

 

[Lambo_Rambo]

re: Valentin's M119 W201, here's his thread on 190Rev: http://forum.190rev.net/showthread.php?39595-Help-needed-M119-5-0-conversion&highlight=m119

Yes, that is my car. But I think the others got it mixed up with Ben's blue 190 from England, which had SL500 M119. It was a straight swap, using the SL500 suspension, automatic gearbox, differential, stock ECU, the engine was a late M119 with coil packs.

If you tell me where to post the thread I will give more information about my setup and I will post pictures.

 

[jhodg5ck]

Yes, that is my car. But I think the others got it mixed up with Ben's blue 190 from England, which had SL500 M119. It was a straight swap, using the SL500 suspension, automatic gearbox, differential, stock ECU, the engine was a late M119 with coil packs.

If you tell me where to post the thread I will give more information about my setup and I will post pictures.

I'd think here in the M119 section would make just as much sense as any place else, no?? Would love to see/hear/read up on the details...I've got a nice 201 2.6 w/ a popped head gasket that I'm trying to decide what/if I'm going to do anything with it..;-)


jono

 

[400Eric]

I don't think this statement is correct. I think you've more been ridiculed for just being 400Eric, no?

You know that high pressure system that has been tormenting us with record breaking heat? Well, I've sent it your way. Enjoy!

 

[M104-AMG]

Also: do note that MB made the 113s with a three-valve head for some time, but eventually went back to a 4-valve design on the V-8s.

Cheers,
Gerry

Anyone remember Jim Feuling's lawsuit against Daimler-Chrysler regarding using the 3-valve head design ?

In 2003, the court ruled that disclose of previous lawsuits from Batten engine; possibly prior-art from the Batten engine and possibly Honda; combined with a misleading "small entity status"; made his patents for 3-valve heads un-enforceable:

http://www.leagle.com/decision/2003.../DAIMLERCHRYSLER AG v. FEULING ADVANCED TECHS.

neil

 

[400Eric]

Yes, I do remember! And thanks for the update and link! I was wondering what ever happened with that. I seem to remember he sued Ford too but after looking at that link, I guess I am mistaken.

Jim Feuling was an original. The original patent troll! 3 valve heads have been around forever! Somewhere here I have a Motor Trend article from 1970 that has an article on Dan Gurney's racing skunkworks, and amongst all of the trick stuff were some 3 valve heads. Honestly though, I think 3 valve heads even pre-date that effort. By a long shot! Heck, we even had 4 valve heads in the 1920s! Can you say: "Duesenberg"?

Ironically, with the recent changes in patent law that now favor the "First to file", Feuling's claim would have a better chance, if this patent litigation was being heard today. It still wouldn't be right though.

Regards,
Eric

 

[clarkz71]

Honda Civics in the late 70's early 80's had 3 valve heads.

Called the system CVCC

3 valves are for saving $$

There have been 5 valve engines as well

Yamaha R1 1000 was a 5 valve from 1988 to 2006

2007 they went back to 4 valve

 

[400Eric]

Yes, I was going to mention Honda's CVCC head in my post but if you study the link and study Feuling's patent, you'll see that it didn't really apply to Honda's CVCC design, which had very dissimilar sized intake valves.

VW/Audi had a 5 valve head in the 90s/00s and an Italian OEM had them as well, I think it was in the late 80s/early 90s.

Yes, 3 valves are for saving money. If you are going to charge me 50+ large for a car, you had better NOT shortchange me! Especially when I can get a 4 valve engine in a car costing half that amount!

Regards,
Eric

 

[gerryvz]

The original patent troll!

Wait a minute ... I thought that **I** had the monopoly on troll-hood here !! Was he unhinged ?

 

[400Eric]

He was a troll for money. You are a troll for the sheer joy of it.

 

[Odessit86]

Hello! I am a new here... I believe that M119 engine is the best.. its old school.. But i confused , i spoke with Mercedes mechanic about engines.. and he told me that M113 more reliable its just proven.. I dont know why he said that... Whats your opinion ?
I just reading about M119 engines failure, because of Timing chain guide rails failure.. I didn't expect that in M119 ... wow its just sad.. Sorry for my grammar !

 

[Trae]

I have had no problems with my M113 or any of my M119s.

The M119s may require a little more maintenance than the M113 requiring occasional caps, rotors, spark plugs and such, but those items are considered "consumables".

Klink and Jono, very respected MB experts, both agree that the M113 is proving to be a very tough, reliable engine.

This is a very long thread with a lot of information for both engines. You can't go wrong with either.

 

[gsxr]

Hello! I am a new here... I believe that M119 engine is the best.. its old school.. But i confused , i spoke with Mercedes mechanic about engines.. and he told me that M113 more reliable its just proven.. I dont know why he said that... Whats your opinion ? I just reading about M119 engines failure, because of Timing chain guide rails failure.. I didn't expect that in M119 ... wow its just sad.. Sorry for my grammar !

Trae is correct: Both engines are durable and reliable, and will last almost forever (longer than the chassis) if they are maintained properly. The M113 was designed more with reduced emissions and reduced cost as the objectives compared to the M119. Thankfully the M113 did not lose any durability; although it did lose a little power on the standard, normally-aspirated 5.0L versions compared to the M119 of the same displacement.

Timing chain guide rails are consumable parts, like brake rotors/pads. Chain rails are not designed to last forever. They should be inspected periodically and replaced as needed. It is unreasonable to expect every item inside an engine to last forever, IMO. I could see a mechanic complaining about it because it's an 8-12 hour job to replace all the upper rails on the M119 and it isn't fun. On the flip side, you'd think they would love them because it means more money in their pocket. Think of all the engines out there with cheaper belt drives for the camshafts; where the belts require replacement every 60-100kmi. The M119 just needs a rail inspection every 50-75kmi or so. Couple hours of work to pull the valve covers and peek inside with a flashlight.