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M119 chokes at 4250 rpm..? - MAS..replaced..EZL replaced..
- Thread starter Benzer
- Start date
Re: M119 chokes at 4250 rpm..? - Bad MAS..?
Ok,
I am back.. Finally swapped out the MAS. I am getting better response now and "sometimes" it will shift above 4200 rpm.. Now I am figuring the engine will take some time to get use to the new mixture since it was operated for a LONG time by the previous owner with a bad MAS, super rich mixture, so I will be keeping tabs for a while..
I did notice my rough idle is gone.....
Anyone have any recommendations if I should use Seafoam and how to use it to get the best of it in order to clear up all that gunk that is on the intake manifold and pistons and God knows what else..
Thanks guys..
Ok,
I am back.. Finally swapped out the MAS. I am getting better response now and "sometimes" it will shift above 4200 rpm.. Now I am figuring the engine will take some time to get use to the new mixture since it was operated for a LONG time by the previous owner with a bad MAS, super rich mixture, so I will be keeping tabs for a while..
I did notice my rough idle is gone.....
Anyone have any recommendations if I should use Seafoam and how to use it to get the best of it in order to clear up all that gunk that is on the intake manifold and pistons and God knows what else..
Thanks guys..
Re: M119 chokes at 4250 rpm..? - Bad MAS..?
That's progress, but if it won't pull to redline normally, SOMETHING is still wrong - and it ain't the mixture. If you still have other codes reappearing, you will need to fix those.Benzer said:
Re-setting the LH adaptation resets the mixture to factory spec. It will take some time for the module to adapt to your specific engine, but it should run fine after the reset - it doesn't take days or weeks for driveability to start improving.Benzer said:
Cool! The MAF may have been responsible for that, anyway.Benzer said:
Don't lose sleep about gunk inside the intake manifold. Pretty much all our engines will have that. Unless it's excessive (like, 1/4" thick layer of glop) just ignore it. Fuel additives aren't going to clean the intake because only air (and PCV vapors) travel through the manifold. Some carbon on the pistons won't hurt anything either, just drive it hard ("Italian tune-up") to help that... although if it won't pull to redline, you'll need to fix the other issues first.Benzer said:
Re: M119 chokes at 4250 rpm..? - MAS..replaced..
Great,
I will be pounding it for some days...4sure...gas bill gonna go sky high.. I will check the codes in two days then reset what I get. Drive for about a week and re-read them...
Here it is..also replaced the filters..those didn't exactly look like they were in their prime time..
After a little more driving today I noticed that it will shift past 5500 in lower gears.. It sorta feels like it wants to break free from that limiter..which I think this is due to some sensor as Glen pointed out earlier.., so the more I drive it the better feel I will get as to what is really going on... The engine still feels like its performing around 80% response is much better but not the response you would expect from an engine that has close to 300Hp....
I STILL haven't had time to replace the NSS switch.. I know..,shame on me.. but we been too busy at the shop and the lift died on us this week...I know,...lazy...
I did reset the LH so I will keep driving and sort things out as they fall..
Thanks on the additive tips..
Great,
I will be pounding it for some days...4sure...gas bill gonna go sky high.. I will check the codes in two days then reset what I get. Drive for about a week and re-read them...
Here it is..also replaced the filters..those didn't exactly look like they were in their prime time..
After a little more driving today I noticed that it will shift past 5500 in lower gears.. It sorta feels like it wants to break free from that limiter..which I think this is due to some sensor as Glen pointed out earlier.., so the more I drive it the better feel I will get as to what is really going on... The engine still feels like its performing around 80% response is much better but not the response you would expect from an engine that has close to 300Hp....
I STILL haven't had time to replace the NSS switch.. I know..,shame on me.. but we been too busy at the shop and the lift died on us this week...I know,...lazy...
I did reset the LH so I will keep driving and sort things out as they fall..
Thanks on the additive tips..
Re: M119 chokes at 4250 rpm..? - MAS..replaced..
After doing some city and highway driving I was ale to notice the following:
1. From a dead stop, depending on how hard I press the pedal. The car will shift beyond the 4200 rpm mark. If I press it hard looking for kickdown it struggles at 4200 rpm, if I press gradually and somewhat fast it will slide past 5300 rpm.
2. On the highway, at 60 mph I press the kickdown, the transmission down shifts and revs close to red line but I am not getting response from any gears so I have to back up on the gas an it engages. It doesn't jolt though.. The feeling can be compared identically to a standard 5-Speed. If you are in 5th gear at the same speed and push the clutch without letting go of the gas, you will see your rpms. go all the way up close to the red line..
3. If rolling between 5mph and 20mph and I push on the gas without pushing for a downshift or triggering the kickdown the response in acceleration is not immediate. It takes a little bit for it to pull up, even though you can clearly hear the engine sucking up air and working..
Any thoughts besides more driving to tune it up a bit..?
After doing some city and highway driving I was ale to notice the following:
1. From a dead stop, depending on how hard I press the pedal. The car will shift beyond the 4200 rpm mark. If I press it hard looking for kickdown it struggles at 4200 rpm, if I press gradually and somewhat fast it will slide past 5300 rpm.
2. On the highway, at 60 mph I press the kickdown, the transmission down shifts and revs close to red line but I am not getting response from any gears so I have to back up on the gas an it engages. It doesn't jolt though.. The feeling can be compared identically to a standard 5-Speed. If you are in 5th gear at the same speed and push the clutch without letting go of the gas, you will see your rpms. go all the way up close to the red line..
3. If rolling between 5mph and 20mph and I push on the gas without pushing for a downshift or triggering the kickdown the response in acceleration is not immediate. It takes a little bit for it to pull up, even though you can clearly hear the engine sucking up air and working..
Any thoughts besides more driving to tune it up a bit..?
Re: M119 chokes at 4250 rpm..? - MAS..replaced..
If you're still getting that knock sensor code on the EZL even after clearing it... you've got either knock sensor problems, or EZL problems. I'm 99% sure your remaining problem is related to that...
If you're still getting that knock sensor code on the EZL even after clearing it... you've got either knock sensor problems, or EZL problems. I'm 99% sure your remaining problem is related to that...
Re: M119 chokes at 4250 rpm..? - MAS..replaced..
I will check my codes tomorrow, clear them and drive Italian style for a couple of days or until the CEL comes on again.
I am not too familiar with the performance operational area of the M119 engine. We work mostly on Integras, Civics and occasional BMW. I can see why the EZL could be a culprit here. Still, don't get why the KS, though..? Are these tied up this close to the M119 engine performance. My concern lies on why the engine revs past 5k when kickdown is triggered at highway speeds but feels more like a flaring..
The symptom that improved a little was the heavy misfire that develops as a result of trying to push the rpms past 4200 for a second or two and then letting go of the gas. The misfire is there, less noticeable than before the MAS replacement, but still there. The engine also levels out after about 1 minute of running..
New ETA and MAS, yet the engine almost dies after revving fast to 3K and letting go of the pedal when in P/N.
I know they would be going off if the engine pings generally caused by a lean mixture, but mine was running the other way around..
Is there a way to check for the KS or could I pretty much call it a day if I continuously get DTC 25 on PIN19 and DTC 5 on PIN17. Or should I rule them out if I only get DTC 5 from PIN 17 and none at PIN 19..? (If I could somehow get a hold of something like HONDATA program, but for this engine would be sweet, or something that reads similar live feed. The investment wouldn't be justified though..).
Anyhow, if at first you don't succeed try again..
thank a lot for your input gsxr..
I will check my codes tomorrow, clear them and drive Italian style for a couple of days or until the CEL comes on again.
I am not too familiar with the performance operational area of the M119 engine. We work mostly on Integras, Civics and occasional BMW. I can see why the EZL could be a culprit here. Still, don't get why the KS, though..? Are these tied up this close to the M119 engine performance. My concern lies on why the engine revs past 5k when kickdown is triggered at highway speeds but feels more like a flaring..
The symptom that improved a little was the heavy misfire that develops as a result of trying to push the rpms past 4200 for a second or two and then letting go of the gas. The misfire is there, less noticeable than before the MAS replacement, but still there. The engine also levels out after about 1 minute of running..
New ETA and MAS, yet the engine almost dies after revving fast to 3K and letting go of the pedal when in P/N.
I know they would be going off if the engine pings generally caused by a lean mixture, but mine was running the other way around..
Is there a way to check for the KS or could I pretty much call it a day if I continuously get DTC 25 on PIN19 and DTC 5 on PIN17. Or should I rule them out if I only get DTC 5 from PIN 17 and none at PIN 19..? (If I could somehow get a hold of something like HONDATA program, but for this engine would be sweet, or something that reads similar live feed. The investment wouldn't be justified though..).
Anyhow, if at first you don't succeed try again..
thank a lot for your input gsxr..
Re: M119 chokes at 4250 rpm..? - MAS..replaced..
You can get live data from the LH system (including EZL, etc) but you need a digital scanner that speaks MB OBD-1, and there are very few to choose from. Dunno if you want to invest in the $500-$750 or so, but it could pay off in the long run if you intend to either keep this car for a while, or buy a 500E eventuall!
You can get live data from the LH system (including EZL, etc) but you need a digital scanner that speaks MB OBD-1, and there are very few to choose from. Dunno if you want to invest in the $500-$750 or so, but it could pay off in the long run if you intend to either keep this car for a while, or buy a 500E eventuall!
Re: M119 chokes at 4250 rpm..? - MAS..replaced..
I don't think I will dive into a scanner right now but I will learn as much as I can about the M119 and enjoy the car, because, you better believe it, eventually I will get my hands on a 93' 500E. By then I should know what to look for in it before buying it..
So back to the drawing board for now...
Keep ya'll updated as soon as the next DTC shows up..hehe..
I don't think I will dive into a scanner right now but I will learn as much as I can about the M119 and enjoy the car, because, you better believe it, eventually I will get my hands on a 93' 500E. By then I should know what to look for in it before buying it..
So back to the drawing board for now...
Keep ya'll updated as soon as the next DTC shows up..hehe..
Re: M119 chokes at 4250 rpm..? - MAS..replaced..
Today I ordered the CORRECT EZL for my car from Patrick of LKQ395 Potomac German. Thank you for the contact info Dave. Can't wait to feel the results. It should run a hell of a lot better. The idle does feel like its missing as soon as you start the engine, after driving it it goes away.
BTW, once I get my EZL if anybody is interested in the one I have let me know, I will have have no use for it and could use the $ or a new radiator.. lol.., (given the EZL works fine on your cars after you have tried it). It works on my car, the car runs, like crap, but it runs.. According to Pat. its running the cams 4 or more deg. off.
gsxr said:Your 1995 E420 should have an EZL p/n 015-545-60-32. If you have an 015-545-61-32, that is for a 5.0L engine!! That might be part of your problem!Note that the 4.2L modules are completely different part numbers than the 5.0L and they should not be interchanged.
I would not use anything except the correct part number... while all the 5.0 EZL modules are interchangable (on 5.0L engines), the 4.2L modules may not be (even on 4.2L engines). I have been able to run both my 5.0L cars on all four different 5.0L EZL's, but my '95 E420 (with 015- original EZL) refuses to run with the 013- or 014- EZL. I'm not sure what the difference is but I do recall that it would throw some odd codes when the wrong EZL was installed, the tach would jump all over, and it would barely idle let alone drive. I never would have thought to check for a wrong EZL in your car, but sheesh, it sure looks like that is a strong possibility....!!!!
Today I ordered the CORRECT EZL for my car from Patrick of LKQ395 Potomac German. Thank you for the contact info Dave. Can't wait to feel the results. It should run a hell of a lot better. The idle does feel like its missing as soon as you start the engine, after driving it it goes away.
BTW, once I get my EZL if anybody is interested in the one I have let me know, I will have have no use for it and could use the $ or a new radiator.. lol.., (given the EZL works fine on your cars after you have tried it). It works on my car, the car runs, like crap, but it runs.. According to Pat. its running the cams 4 or more deg. off.
Re: M119 chokes at 4250 rpm..? - Updated..codes pulled..
If you do replace your EZL because it's the cause of the issue, it is highly recommended that you also replace your coils too. A bad coil can and will easily kill an EZL, rendering it a hunk of plastic and metal.
Cheers,
Gerry
gerryvz said:
Glad to hear that my original diagnosis sounds like it may be correct. With the EZL, I've BTDT.gerryvz said:
If you do replace your EZL because it's the cause of the issue, it is highly recommended that you also replace your coils too. A bad coil can and will easily kill an EZL, rendering it a hunk of plastic and metal.
Cheers,
Gerry
Re: M119 chokes at 4250 rpm..? - MAS..replaced..EZL on its w
Thanks gerry for the tip on the coils. Will definitively do that.
Is it necessary to remove the ABS system to get to the coils or is there an easier way around..?
Do you suggest to test the EZL and see how it performs then remove it and wait for coils to come in, or don't even mess with it until I get the coils..?
Thanks gerry for the tip on the coils. Will definitively do that.
Is it necessary to remove the ABS system to get to the coils or is there an easier way around..?
Do you suggest to test the EZL and see how it performs then remove it and wait for coils to come in, or don't even mess with it until I get the coils..?
Re: M119 chokes at 4250 rpm..? - MAS..replaced..EZL on its w
I think you can get at the coils without removing the ABS system. Shouldn't be a problem at all.
You can certainly test and run the EZL with the existing coils, just replace them relatively soon after doing the EZL. This is particularly and MOST important to have fresh coils when you do a NEW EZL, but prudent with a used unit as well.
One other tip -- you need to clean up the old heat-sink paste when you remove your old EZL and clean off/coat the new EZL bottom (where it mounts to the fender) with new heatsink paste. You can get this, I believe, from Radio Shack, Fry's Electronics, or other computer/hobbyist supply store. VERY VERY important you do this so that you don't overheat and burn out the EZL. The EZL is an actual microcomputer with embedded code, not all that different from a miniature PC in many respects.
Cheers,
Gerry
I think you can get at the coils without removing the ABS system. Shouldn't be a problem at all.
You can certainly test and run the EZL with the existing coils, just replace them relatively soon after doing the EZL. This is particularly and MOST important to have fresh coils when you do a NEW EZL, but prudent with a used unit as well.
One other tip -- you need to clean up the old heat-sink paste when you remove your old EZL and clean off/coat the new EZL bottom (where it mounts to the fender) with new heatsink paste. You can get this, I believe, from Radio Shack, Fry's Electronics, or other computer/hobbyist supply store. VERY VERY important you do this so that you don't overheat and burn out the EZL. The EZL is an actual microcomputer with embedded code, not all that different from a miniature PC in many respects.
Cheers,
Gerry
Re: M119 chokes at 4250 rpm..? - MAS..replaced..EZL on its w
Wow, thank for letting me know about the heat-sink paste. Never would I have known/thought about that.. As far as the coils go, they seem to be mounted underneath the ABS and screwed from underneath as well. At first look I can't figure out how to get to those bolts..
Thx.
Wow, thank for letting me know about the heat-sink paste. Never would I have known/thought about that.. As far as the coils go, they seem to be mounted underneath the ABS and screwed from underneath as well. At first look I can't figure out how to get to those bolts..
Thx.
Re: M119 chokes at 4250 rpm..? - MAS..replaced..EZL on its w
The elusive problem I had been chasing for 6 months finally came to an END..!! Yes gentleman, the EZL was the culprit just as it was thought.., thank you millions for your input.. I am finally getting close to enjoying this car the way it should be and getting on with preventive maintenance work, not corrective maintenance work.
Thanks to all of you who helped in bringing closure to this irritating problem.
The main issue with the engine was the “artificial limiter” that the engine ran into around 4K rpm, which was immediately followed by a terrible miss. The incorrect EZL had the timing off and God knows what else..
The MAS attributed to very poor performance low gas millage as well, and a rough idle caused by a super-rich mixture. At the moment the CEL has not shown up and I plan to drive a little longer before I check the codes again.. If the KS comes up, then..ahh well, l they gotta go.. but that’s another chapter..
Today, after replacing the EZL, (for the correct one), the car initially idled rough..not the missing feeling it had before, simply rough.. like an oldschool V8. After a couple of traffic lights it went away..? Fine tuning I guess?
As is the engine revs well over 4K rpm. Low end response is similar to how it was before, mid range is completely different, (for the better), however, it doesn't shift close to red line, its "trying' to shift around 5K and the down shifts are not that responsive unless I hit the kickdown switch, (with is new).
I believe this may be a combination of transmission service requirement, ( I know it’s urgent I have it done), and bowden cable adjustment. The cable does not look in good shape at ALL and I am sure it’s been tinkered with..btw on the bowden, the more slack the higher (rpm) the shift occurs or the other way around..?
Once again, I would like to thank all those who helped in getting to the bottom of this issue. I also hope that all these posts may help someone else resolve one or two issues they may have of their own as its been well documented, I believe.. On another note, I have the EZL I removed at hand. I don’t know if it works well or not since it was not the correct one for my engine, what will happen to it, is another topic/thread..
The feeling of closure is incomparable.....
The elusive problem I had been chasing for 6 months finally came to an END..!! Yes gentleman, the EZL was the culprit just as it was thought.., thank you millions for your input.. I am finally getting close to enjoying this car the way it should be and getting on with preventive maintenance work, not corrective maintenance work.
gsxr said:
gsxr said:Your 1995 E420 should have an EZL p/n 015-545-60-32. If you have an 015-545-61-32, that is for a 5.0L engine!! That might be part of your problem!
I would not use anything except the correct part number... while all the 5.0 EZL modules are inter-changable (on 5.0L engines), the 4.2L modules may not be (even on 4.2L engines). I have been able to run both my 5.0L cars on all four different 5.0L EZL's, but my '95 E420 (with 015- original EZL) refuses to run with the 013- or 014- EZL. I'm not sure what the difference is but I do recall that it would throw some odd codes when the wrong EZL was installed, the tach would jump all over, and it would barely idle let alone drive. I never would have thought to check for a wrong EZL in your car, but sheesh, it sure looks like that is a strong possibility....!!!!
gerryvz said:
Thanks to all of you who helped in bringing closure to this irritating problem.
The main issue with the engine was the “artificial limiter” that the engine ran into around 4K rpm, which was immediately followed by a terrible miss. The incorrect EZL had the timing off and God knows what else..
The MAS attributed to very poor performance low gas millage as well, and a rough idle caused by a super-rich mixture. At the moment the CEL has not shown up and I plan to drive a little longer before I check the codes again.. If the KS comes up, then..ahh well, l they gotta go.. but that’s another chapter..
Today, after replacing the EZL, (for the correct one), the car initially idled rough..not the missing feeling it had before, simply rough.. like an oldschool V8. After a couple of traffic lights it went away..? Fine tuning I guess?
As is the engine revs well over 4K rpm. Low end response is similar to how it was before, mid range is completely different, (for the better), however, it doesn't shift close to red line, its "trying' to shift around 5K and the down shifts are not that responsive unless I hit the kickdown switch, (with is new).
I believe this may be a combination of transmission service requirement, ( I know it’s urgent I have it done), and bowden cable adjustment. The cable does not look in good shape at ALL and I am sure it’s been tinkered with..btw on the bowden, the more slack the higher (rpm) the shift occurs or the other way around..?
Once again, I would like to thank all those who helped in getting to the bottom of this issue. I also hope that all these posts may help someone else resolve one or two issues they may have of their own as its been well documented, I believe.. On another note, I have the EZL I removed at hand. I don’t know if it works well or not since it was not the correct one for my engine, what will happen to it, is another topic/thread..
The feeling of closure is incomparable.....
Re: M119 chokes at 4250 rpm..? - MAS..replaced..EZL replaced
Checked my codes again today...
The following codes did NOT come up again.. Prooving the EZL was either shot or not compatible with my car..
PIN#17
Code 5 - Knock sensor 1 and/or 2 defective
PIN#19
Code 25 - Knock sensors or ignition control module defective.
Checked my codes again today...
The following codes did NOT come up again.. Prooving the EZL was either shot or not compatible with my car..
PIN#17
Code 5 - Knock sensor 1 and/or 2 defective
PIN#19
Code 25 - Knock sensors or ignition control module defective.
Re: M119 chokes at 4250 rpm..? - MAS..replaced..EZL replaced
This is so much interessting.... a friend of mine had the same issue on his E420 in germany, exactly the same issue at the same RPM. He could not solve it, even dumping 1000 of euros into the car.
He finally sold it, however he never replaced the EZL.
This is so much interessting.... a friend of mine had the same issue on his E420 in germany, exactly the same issue at the same RPM. He could not solve it, even dumping 1000 of euros into the car.
He finally sold it, however he never replaced the EZL.
Re: M119 chokes at 4250 rpm..? - MAS..replaced..EZL replaced
Hmmm,
Replacing the EZL did improve my performance, but not too long ago I go the KS code again I picked it up with the engine running, (PIN#17
Code 5 - Knock sensor 1 and/or 2 defective), I would get no codes at first with the engine off.
Somedays the engine WILL surpass the 4K rpm mark others it won't. So in conclusion it could be a very unique combination of a bad EZL and KS sensors. Do you know if he ever replaced the knock sensors..? The relation I can assume with the KS and the engine performing this way is because the ignition timing is off, (retarded) so the EZL is receiving either no signal from the KS or the wrong signal..
Hmmm,
Replacing the EZL did improve my performance, but not too long ago I go the KS code again I picked it up with the engine running, (PIN#17
Code 5 - Knock sensor 1 and/or 2 defective), I would get no codes at first with the engine off.
Somedays the engine WILL surpass the 4K rpm mark others it won't. So in conclusion it could be a very unique combination of a bad EZL and KS sensors. Do you know if he ever replaced the knock sensors..? The relation I can assume with the KS and the engine performing this way is because the ignition timing is off, (retarded) so the EZL is receiving either no signal from the KS or the wrong signal..
Re: M119 chokes at 4250 rpm..? - MAS..replaced..EZL replaced
Hi,
I have the exact same stuff happening to my 500E 93. I haven't tried to pull codes yet.
Please read document about Transmission overload protection switch, which it states should be checked regarding the rpm 4000 rpm issue (along 3 other things on the trans.) it also goes to the EZL.
http://www.w124-zone.com/downloads/MB%2 ... 5-0020.pdf
Let me know what you read from this.
Hi,
I have the exact same stuff happening to my 500E 93. I haven't tried to pull codes yet.
Please read document about Transmission overload protection switch, which it states should be checked regarding the rpm 4000 rpm issue (along 3 other things on the trans.) it also goes to the EZL.
http://www.w124-zone.com/downloads/MB%2 ... 5-0020.pdf
Let me know what you read from this.
Re: M119 chokes at 4250 rpm..? - MAS..replaced..EZL replaced
Could you describe why this would't be cause of the issue? From what I read, it says that the switch could cause a retard of the ignition timing, if the switch or its wire is faulty. Also, that this transmission overload protection switch is directly connected to the EZL, giving the EZL signals that may cause ignition retards and other oddities..
This link is maybe easier to read: http://www.w124performance.com/docs/mb/ ... rload2.jpg
(Though not the same engine, the prinsipals should be the same right?)
And regarding my last post:
..check out the writing on page 32 "Emergency running mode transmission overload protection". I am unsure if the chocking at 4250 rpms actually is a "misfiring at high speed", but it sure feels like it in my car..
gsxr said:I don't think this is the cause of the issue, but it wouldn't hurt to check. The fault codes should answer the question... you'd see code 8 or 9 on the EZL.
Could you describe why this would't be cause of the issue? From what I read, it says that the switch could cause a retard of the ignition timing, if the switch or its wire is faulty. Also, that this transmission overload protection switch is directly connected to the EZL, giving the EZL signals that may cause ignition retards and other oddities..
This link is maybe easier to read: http://www.w124performance.com/docs/mb/ ... rload2.jpg
(Though not the same engine, the prinsipals should be the same right?)
And regarding my last post:
..check out the writing on page 32 "Emergency running mode transmission overload protection". I am unsure if the chocking at 4250 rpms actually is a "misfiring at high speed", but it sure feels like it in my car..
Re: M119 chokes at 4250 rpm..? - MAS..replaced..EZL replaced
The transmission overload protection just reduces power briefly during a shift, it should not cause the engine to choke or stop revving. You really need to do two things:
1) Verify the part number of the EZL currently installed in your '93 500E (post it here on the forum)
2) Get a hand-held LED blink code reader and pull codes from the EZL (pin 17 on the diagnostic connector)
Assuming you have the proper EZL, the codes should indicate if the trans overload switch is at fault or not. You really can't do any serious diagnostics on these cars without pulling codes from all six of the engine management systems.
The transmission overload protection just reduces power briefly during a shift, it should not cause the engine to choke or stop revving. You really need to do two things:
1) Verify the part number of the EZL currently installed in your '93 500E (post it here on the forum)
2) Get a hand-held LED blink code reader and pull codes from the EZL (pin 17 on the diagnostic connector)
Assuming you have the proper EZL, the codes should indicate if the trans overload switch is at fault or not. You really can't do any serious diagnostics on these cars without pulling codes from all six of the engine management systems.
Re: M119 chokes at 4250 rpm..? - MAS..replaced..EZL replaced
"The transmission overload protection" only works over 4000RPM anyway from 1-2 2-3 or 3-2 on kickdown.
If its constantly "open" or "closed" or often hanging, EZL recognizes this, stores an error and retards ignition by some percent for secure when over 4000RPM. Thats what i recall from the "introduction into service" manual. Might be not 100% correct, but you can read it there.
"The transmission overload protection" only works over 4000RPM anyway from 1-2 2-3 or 3-2 on kickdown.
If its constantly "open" or "closed" or often hanging, EZL recognizes this, stores an error and retards ignition by some percent for secure when over 4000RPM. Thats what i recall from the "introduction into service" manual. Might be not 100% correct, but you can read it there.
Re: M119 chokes at 4250 rpm..? - MAS..replaced..EZL replaced
Interesting document relating to the Overload Relay, however, I agree with Dave. You need to pull the codes with the engine off, and with the engine running, just to make sure. Then we can compare notes. From personal experience the EZL part # is also helpful to check.
By process of elimination and noticing power loss and that my gas millage went down the drain, (17.29/gal. Hwy), I concluded that my KS are faulty, and I say faulty because the symptoms are there 'almost' all the time. I have a new set and a pair of engine mounts laying in the shop. I just haven't had the time to replace them, (and sure as hell ain't paying $1100.00 for someone else to do it, simply too expensive and no fun or sense of accomplishment in it). I will document this as soon as I jump on them.
In a nutshell, these engines have more than one item that will trigger a "rpm governor" to kick in. It can be triggered via the EZL, LH module or even a fuel pump really that is working halfway there. Believe me, in these couple of months I have read many books and articles related to the M119's SFI and Ignition. You are going to end up frustrated, really quick if you don't set your starting point as pulling the codes.. Sorry I don't have the result of the KS R&R to further assist. but its coming...
Interesting document relating to the Overload Relay, however, I agree with Dave. You need to pull the codes with the engine off, and with the engine running, just to make sure. Then we can compare notes. From personal experience the EZL part # is also helpful to check.
By process of elimination and noticing power loss and that my gas millage went down the drain, (17.29/gal. Hwy), I concluded that my KS are faulty, and I say faulty because the symptoms are there 'almost' all the time. I have a new set and a pair of engine mounts laying in the shop. I just haven't had the time to replace them, (and sure as hell ain't paying $1100.00 for someone else to do it, simply too expensive and no fun or sense of accomplishment in it). I will document this as soon as I jump on them.
In a nutshell, these engines have more than one item that will trigger a "rpm governor" to kick in. It can be triggered via the EZL, LH module or even a fuel pump really that is working halfway there. Believe me, in these couple of months I have read many books and articles related to the M119's SFI and Ignition. You are going to end up frustrated, really quick if you don't set your starting point as pulling the codes.. Sorry I don't have the result of the KS R&R to further assist. but its coming...
Re: M119 chokes at 4250 rpm..? - MAS..replaced..EZL replaced
I will be taking the car to pulling codes the next couple of days; another indy shop who has this very eccentric mechanic. He will talk to you, describing a part to every little detail for 15 minutes, just because you ask him about one specific relay. Hopefully he may describe what the issues are, and how they may be solved. I'll get him to reset the codes, so I can come back the day after, and see which ones pop up.
My gas milage is fine I guess... It does 1,18 liter/10 km (19.93 MPG - US) for mixed driving. I've heard it is capable of 0,9 l /10 km (26 MPG). It is quite stable at ending up at 20 MPG on each fillup.
Note: I just replaced the MAF about 10 months ago. It was refurbished and delivered by GermanStar.
I was thinking the pressure on the pumps, combined with an 18 year old fuel pump relay, could make the EZL and LH system stumble..
I could upload some videos to youtube, but I don't want to highjack this thead
I also! have all engine mounts ordered, because my indy shop guy told me they really need replacement. Regarding this, I read somewhere that bad mounts also could have some impact on some of these symptoms. Maybe we actually have the same issues..Benzer said:
I will be taking the car to pulling codes the next couple of days; another indy shop who has this very eccentric mechanic. He will talk to you, describing a part to every little detail for 15 minutes, just because you ask him about one specific relay. Hopefully he may describe what the issues are, and how they may be solved. I'll get him to reset the codes, so I can come back the day after, and see which ones pop up.
My gas milage is fine I guess... It does 1,18 liter/10 km (19.93 MPG - US) for mixed driving. I've heard it is capable of 0,9 l /10 km (26 MPG). It is quite stable at ending up at 20 MPG on each fillup.
I will go down to the garage and check the part no shortly.
Note: I just replaced the MAF about 10 months ago. It was refurbished and delivered by GermanStar.
I did have a feeling the fuel relay could be a sinner here, but haven't checked it yet. I will check. I have some trouble with a loud fuel pump - sitting in the rear. I did a test, to see if there is a ventilation problem in the tank. I was going to let the gas cap be loose, so the air could ventilate. But when I had the engine running and the gastank half way full, turning off the cap made the pressure spray gas all over the floor. I'am not sure the pressure should be this high.
I was thinking the pressure on the pumps, combined with an 18 year old fuel pump relay, could make the EZL and LH system stumble..
I could upload some videos to youtube, but I don't want to highjack this thead
Re: M119 chokes at 4250 rpm..? - MAS..replaced..EZL replaced
I unscrewed the fuel cap this morning - letting air getting out of the tank, and started driving the car with the cap sitting loosely mounted.
I have been driving all day.
This had a dramatical impact on the stableness of the engine.. It has been very calm-running, and it hasn't been like this since I bought it.
So, do check for pressure build up in the gas tank. There should be some pressure, but not a significant build up. The pressure build up in my car, seem to have made som trouble for the fuel pumps. It seems if the pressure has had an impact on the LH system, forcing an unsteady flow of fuel..
I've bought a new fuel pump relay, but need to get this installed hopefully tomorrow, to see if it adds further improvements.
Benzer: Have you looked at pressure in the fuel tank and/or the fuel pump relay, and maybe the charcoal cannister if you smell hints of fuel? A good working evaporation- and ventilation system, seems to be of some importance.
I unscrewed the fuel cap this morning - letting air getting out of the tank, and started driving the car with the cap sitting loosely mounted.
I have been driving all day.
This had a dramatical impact on the stableness of the engine.. It has been very calm-running, and it hasn't been like this since I bought it.
So, do check for pressure build up in the gas tank. There should be some pressure, but not a significant build up. The pressure build up in my car, seem to have made som trouble for the fuel pumps. It seems if the pressure has had an impact on the LH system, forcing an unsteady flow of fuel..
I've bought a new fuel pump relay, but need to get this installed hopefully tomorrow, to see if it adds further improvements.
Benzer: Have you looked at pressure in the fuel tank and/or the fuel pump relay, and maybe the charcoal cannister if you smell hints of fuel? A good working evaporation- and ventilation system, seems to be of some importance.
Re: M119 chokes at 4250 rpm..? - MAS..replaced..EZL replaced
EZL checks out OK for a 5.0 M119 engine. The part no is shown as used on a the S series, but I take it should not be a prob..Interesting clue about the gas cap, I'm trying that out for sport see what happens and will let you know. As far as the pumps and fuel line pressure are concerned, I will place a piece of plastic with a rubber band to prevent gas squirting out.
Does your engine cut-off at 4k-4.2K rpm or it will go over 5.3k rpm sometimes..?
This relates to a fuel pressure test and might find it helpful = viewtopic.php?f=19&t=1275
I will go over it once more, before next week as I will be parking the car for a couple of weeks while I am out working on the rigs. I'll try to get a video of it. If I get a loss of pressure again while revving the engine, then one or both my pumps are about to go. Intake manifold pressure is inversely proportional to fuel pressure with the vacuum disconnected to the FPR. I don't see a relationship between FP and the LH module.
My pumps are in the list of suspects for rough idling and some power loss.
EZL checks out OK for a 5.0 M119 engine. The part no is shown as used on a the S series, but I take it should not be a prob..Interesting clue about the gas cap, I'm trying that out for sport see what happens and will let you know. As far as the pumps and fuel line pressure are concerned, I will place a piece of plastic with a rubber band to prevent gas squirting out.
Does your engine cut-off at 4k-4.2K rpm or it will go over 5.3k rpm sometimes..?
This relates to a fuel pressure test and might find it helpful = viewtopic.php?f=19&t=1275
I will go over it once more, before next week as I will be parking the car for a couple of weeks while I am out working on the rigs. I'll try to get a video of it. If I get a loss of pressure again while revving the engine, then one or both my pumps are about to go. Intake manifold pressure is inversely proportional to fuel pressure with the vacuum disconnected to the FPR. I don't see a relationship between FP and the LH module.
My pumps are in the list of suspects for rough idling and some power loss.
Re: M119 chokes at 4250 rpm..? - MAS..replaced..EZL replaced
So my EZL is not a problem part due to the part number.. Did I understand you correctly?
I've got another lead on my more or less poor ignition start. It takes between 1-2 seconds to start the car. It should be quicker - like my old 300E which started "before I was able to turn the key all the way". - The fuel pressure regulator..
I would assume the fuel pressure regulator also would have something it wishes to say on this matter as well?
I will read your other thread more throughly today
Yes, its an interchangable part, strangely enough since it is literally a somewhat complex computer from Siemens.Benzer said:
So my EZL is not a problem part due to the part number.. Did I understand you correctly?
I drove it yesterday and today - much much calmer, and better accelleration.Benzer said:
I haven't tried changing the fuel pump relay I bought yesterday yet, but with this ventilation fix, I still had a cut off at 5200 rpms testing today. It didn't choke at 4k this time. But I feel I need to drive it some more, without the cap tightened, and see if it improved regarding the rpm issue. It sure felt a lot better, and was a lot faster on the accelleration. It did though, cut off at 5.2k just as if you suddenly were applying a clutch.Benzer said:
I've got another lead on my more or less poor ignition start. It takes between 1-2 seconds to start the car. It should be quicker - like my old 300E which started "before I was able to turn the key all the way". - The fuel pressure regulator..
I would assume the fuel pressure regulator also would have something it wishes to say on this matter as well?
I saw this in your first post of that thread:Benzer said:
..Are you really sure the neutral safety switch (NSS) had this much impact? I've been really wanting to replace this part, but have not yet been convinced. But I do experience some surging in N / P. See my problem thread: viewtopic.php?f=25&t=1110
Let me know how it goesBenzer said:
I will read your other thread more throughly today
Re: M119 chokes at 4250 rpm..? - MAS..replaced..EZL replaced
Correct, I would rule it out. But again, you need to make a code reader and check the codes. I don't don't get a CEL in my cluster but I know I have issues with the KS sensors because I see it on PINS 17 and 19 when I pull the codes with the code reader. The DIY is on this thread.
Have you logged you hgwy mpg..?
Let me know..
mb280sel1985 said:
Correct, I would rule it out. But again, you need to make a code reader and check the codes. I don't don't get a CEL in my cluster but I know I have issues with the KS sensors because I see it on PINS 17 and 19 when I pull the codes with the code reader. The DIY is on this thread.
Just as my engine is doing.... OK, let me ask you to do this,.. punch it until rpm's cut-off, immediately after slow down , pull to the side and let me know if the engine miss fires and idles horribly but levels off to normal after a minute or so.. (if it does, don't panic, just shut her off and start her back up..everything will return to normal).mb280sel1985 said:
Mine is doing the exact thing...mb280sel1985 said:
Yup, I am waiting on a digital FP gauge from a friend to do a last test on the fuel line. So the rule is while the engine is idling and the FPR is connected to vacuum the line pressure should remain steady and unplugging the vacuum from the FPR will trigger the pressure to spike about .5 bar. No change = bad FPR. This is all line pressure and disconnecting the FPR will not cause any noticeable idle surges.mb280sel1985 said:
I did get those surges every now and then but they disappeared when I replaced the MAS, I disregard them as I need to get the larger issue out of the way first, then I will dig around for the cause. Again you need to pull the codes. I replaced my NSS because the code would keep coming back, it had no noticeable effects that I could feel. So, unless you need to replace it, stay away from it or your in for either a 30 min. DIY or an 6 hr pain in the arse..mb280sel1985 said:
Have you logged you hgwy mpg..?
Let me know..
Re: M119 chokes at 4250 rpm..? - MAS..replaced..EZL replaced
Yes, I will go to the indy guy tomorrow morning and pull codes, if he has some excess time available.
Mine is surging/fluctuating from time to time, yes. It seems to be happening sporadically, but now that you pin pointed that scenario, I can absolutely confirm the same experience. I am going to do a test, based on your scenario, without the fuel cap firmly tightened to see if I can trigger it still.
I have had days when there are no issues at all, and then other days where the car is just totally mocking me: the rpms are almost chocking the engine at idle (450-500 rpms), it idles horribly, and surges and/or doesn't respond when applying the gas pedal. I recorded this video of the last two issues some weeks ago: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y-TU7Yq76ZI
It is also often in combination with poor power and slow respons, opposed to those days where the car actually feels pretty good. It's really becoming a pain in the *ss.
But I also have to add, that I am not actually driving the car this hard normally, since there are some issues I'm not liking. Therefore, I think there are other situations also, where I've noticed this phenomenon occurs. Especially after some hard driving and hard brake down (withouth maxing out the rpms neccessarily), something feels like there is a play after coming to a stop - right when I apply throttle again. And it often results in some odd idling. I have been told to replace the engine mounts (2+1), because they are pretty badly worn. I have a refurbished MAF installed (a year ago), and the transmission was partly overhauled a year ago.
I actually have 5 more videos sitting in my laptop, regarding a clicking noise in the engine bay right side, when manually giving it throttle. Also some puffing (misfiring?) clearly sounding from the exhaust tip, and a fuel pump whining that is too loud. Of course, I coul plant this on you tube if it interests you..
- *irony*
But it is giving me the same figures every monday. I take it back and forth to work (the same route). It has given me these figures the last 4 weeks:
(appx wheather 7C morning, 17C afternoon - no rain for the last 8 weeks)
week 1: 1.17 liters / 10 km
week 2: 1,19
week 3: 1,18
week 4: 1,18
I had 1,32 a couple of times since january, but I actually drove the car like it is ment to be driven - :twisted:
What is your highway MPG?
Yes, I will go to the indy guy tomorrow morning and pull codes, if he has some excess time available.
Your description seem to be happening to my car exactly as you described it.Benzer said:
Mine is surging/fluctuating from time to time, yes. It seems to be happening sporadically, but now that you pin pointed that scenario, I can absolutely confirm the same experience. I am going to do a test, based on your scenario, without the fuel cap firmly tightened to see if I can trigger it still.
I have had days when there are no issues at all, and then other days where the car is just totally mocking me: the rpms are almost chocking the engine at idle (450-500 rpms), it idles horribly, and surges and/or doesn't respond when applying the gas pedal. I recorded this video of the last two issues some weeks ago: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y-TU7Yq76ZI
It is also often in combination with poor power and slow respons, opposed to those days where the car actually feels pretty good. It's really becoming a pain in the *ss.
But I also have to add, that I am not actually driving the car this hard normally, since there are some issues I'm not liking. Therefore, I think there are other situations also, where I've noticed this phenomenon occurs. Especially after some hard driving and hard brake down (withouth maxing out the rpms neccessarily), something feels like there is a play after coming to a stop - right when I apply throttle again. And it often results in some odd idling. I have been told to replace the engine mounts (2+1), because they are pretty badly worn. I have a refurbished MAF installed (a year ago), and the transmission was partly overhauled a year ago.
I actually have 5 more videos sitting in my laptop, regarding a clicking noise in the engine bay right side, when manually giving it throttle. Also some puffing (misfiring?) clearly sounding from the exhaust tip, and a fuel pump whining that is too loud. Of course, I coul plant this on you tube if it interests you..
I agree. I did as mentioned replace the MAF, but still of course the part could be a bad seed.Benzer said:
Sorry, I haven't been able to take it for a full day ride on the highway (I have familly)Benzer said:
- *irony*But it is giving me the same figures every monday. I take it back and forth to work (the same route). It has given me these figures the last 4 weeks:
(appx wheather 7C morning, 17C afternoon - no rain for the last 8 weeks)
week 1: 1.17 liters / 10 km
week 2: 1,19
week 3: 1,18
week 4: 1,18
I had 1,32 a couple of times since january, but I actually drove the car like it is ment to be driven - :twisted:
What is your highway MPG?
Re: M119 chokes at 4250 rpm..? - MAS..replaced..EZL replaced
Well this is getting interesting.. We definitely have the same symptoms, (poor response, loss of power, some misfiring etc..) When you go to your indy ask him to do a fuel pressure test for failing pumps and FPR.. Then once he gets these readings and the codes we can cross-reference them. (My engine also works well some days, very few though)
Mine is pulling 17.3mpg - 18.2 mpg ,(7.31km/l - 7.74km/l)
Well this is getting interesting.. We definitely have the same symptoms, (poor response, loss of power, some misfiring etc..) When you go to your indy ask him to do a fuel pressure test for failing pumps and FPR.. Then once he gets these readings and the codes we can cross-reference them. (My engine also works well some days, very few though)
Mine is pulling 17.3mpg - 18.2 mpg ,(7.31km/l - 7.74km/l)
Re: M119 chokes at 4250 rpm..? - MAS..replaced..EZL replaced
FWIW, my black E420 recently started acting up intermittently. It's almost vaguely similar to the scenarios above, but not exactly. It starts/runs fine when cold and warming up, but after 20-30 minutes, it has a rough idle / misfire, and does not want to accelerate from a stop. Once coaxed up to speed, it runs fine, and has no issues pulling to redline at WOT. I am suspecting the fuel pumps but I haven't yet had time to diagnose it. Interesting tidbit is there are zero fault codes (DTC's). I want to connect a mechanical fuel pressure gauge to the fuel rail with some AN hose, so I can watch fuel pressure while driving. I'd like to pinpoint the cause before throwing parts at it.
Current theory is that the 10% ethanol blend gasoline we are getting in the USA is causing premature failiure of the fuel pumps. Damned politicians are ruining our cars...
:evil:
FWIW, my black E420 recently started acting up intermittently. It's almost vaguely similar to the scenarios above, but not exactly. It starts/runs fine when cold and warming up, but after 20-30 minutes, it has a rough idle / misfire, and does not want to accelerate from a stop. Once coaxed up to speed, it runs fine, and has no issues pulling to redline at WOT. I am suspecting the fuel pumps but I haven't yet had time to diagnose it. Interesting tidbit is there are zero fault codes (DTC's). I want to connect a mechanical fuel pressure gauge to the fuel rail with some AN hose, so I can watch fuel pressure while driving. I'd like to pinpoint the cause before throwing parts at it.
Current theory is that the 10% ethanol blend gasoline we are getting in the USA is causing premature failiure of the fuel pumps. Damned politicians are ruining our cars...
:evil:
Re: M119 chokes at 4250 rpm..? - MAS..replaced..EZL replaced
Yes TOO much Government.
I am trying to find an extension for the gauge myself and watch the pressure under accel. I am going over the pressure today or tomorrow, still waiting for the digital gauge.. My engine operates nicely on the highway, it acts up if I ask for too much too quickly, in which case a failing fuel pump(s) and FPR could cause the immediate fuel starvation, ( I never though about it till now, but this would also cause engine knocking..triggering the KS...Dave what your take on that...? These 2 items won't give us any DTC's...
Yes TOO much Government.
I am trying to find an extension for the gauge myself and watch the pressure under accel. I am going over the pressure today or tomorrow, still waiting for the digital gauge.. My engine operates nicely on the highway, it acts up if I ask for too much too quickly, in which case a failing fuel pump(s) and FPR could cause the immediate fuel starvation, ( I never though about it till now, but this would also cause engine knocking..triggering the KS...Dave what your take on that...? These 2 items won't give us any DTC's...
Re: M119 chokes at 4250 rpm..? - MAS..replaced..EZL replaced
Put the links up to the vids. I would like to check them out. Don't give it manual throttle..
Btw, the clicking/tapping noise you hear quite possibly is caused by one or more camshaft oil lubrication tube(s) that may be broken or the hydraulic lifter(s) gone bad. More regarding this on Jim's page http://www.k6jrf.com/MB_lifter.html
Not a fatal problem, but annoying as hell.
mb280sel1985 said:
Put the links up to the vids. I would like to check them out. Don't give it manual throttle..
gsxr said:
Btw, the clicking/tapping noise you hear quite possibly is caused by one or more camshaft oil lubrication tube(s) that may be broken or the hydraulic lifter(s) gone bad. More regarding this on Jim's page http://www.k6jrf.com/MB_lifter.html
Not a fatal problem, but annoying as hell.
Re: M119 chokes at 4250 rpm..? - MAS..replaced..EZL replaced
I will reply to your post first. And then I will upload the videoes, and index them with brief info.
The clicking noice is really not a tapping from the hydraulics, though I have heard very low tapping from the left side. Thought it could be caps and rotors maybe, but of course the guides and lubes may be very much due. See the video I will be posting.
More info:
Today I drove the same route as I do everyday.
I suddenly get the complete halt described earlier - no gas pedal respons. I'll be posting a video of this also.
I decided to try driving with this problem, to see how it continued to act. What happens is that I have to push the pedal pretty far down, to even get a response - maybe 50-60% down. When I get a response, it does actually drive, throttle and supposedly work. But when I take the foot off the pedal - just letting it roll or trying to drive normal - it keeps stuck sitting in 3rd gear, at about 3200 rpms and will not upshift!
Finally after about 2 minutes driving in this condition, it kicks into 4th gear..
I stop the car, the engine revs up and down, acting all crazy. I stop the enginge, start after 2 seconds, and everything is back to normal.
There's really not any difference in noise from the engine or any other part when this happens. I can't push the pedal and get a response until I kick it, and the rpms will stay at 800 rpms no matter what the speed is - until I kick it - It goes up until I release it again - it will go back to 800 rpms, being all jelly before laying down steadily at 800 rpms again. Remember, my engine normally idles at 450-500 rpms, or lately (because I loosened the fuel cap) mostly at 650 rpms.
Really odd, as if clutch is applied, but no response until enough pedal is applied.
Some guy talking about disengaging 3rd and engaging 4th gear - governor pressure and what not.. http://www.mybenz.org/zoopp/html/module ... 0&forum=25
I do have a small leak from the transmission around the gasket and from the tap where flushing the transmission oil. It is barely noticable, and I check the oil level every week. I had a major leak on my old car - a 300E, and it didn't really care much about it, other than shifting very softly - it had to be overhauled unfortunately.
I will reply to your post first. And then I will upload the videoes, and index them with brief info.
The throttle - I know, it just was easier to listen from that side. I haven't noticed the limp mode happening though.Benzer said:
I was really hoping it wouldn't be the guides etc. If this is more of a heat related issue, like the wiring harness is, then I wonder if I may be lucky so far. The car has been driven i Switzerland, and now in Norway. It's not often more than 20-25 degrees (67F-76F) in those countries.
The clicking noice is really not a tapping from the hydraulics, though I have heard very low tapping from the left side. Thought it could be caps and rotors maybe, but of course the guides and lubes may be very much due. See the video I will be posting.
yes, but it's quit some work replacing them right..
More info:
Today I drove the same route as I do everyday.
I suddenly get the complete halt described earlier - no gas pedal respons. I'll be posting a video of this also.
I decided to try driving with this problem, to see how it continued to act. What happens is that I have to push the pedal pretty far down, to even get a response - maybe 50-60% down. When I get a response, it does actually drive, throttle and supposedly work. But when I take the foot off the pedal - just letting it roll or trying to drive normal - it keeps stuck sitting in 3rd gear, at about 3200 rpms and will not upshift!
Finally after about 2 minutes driving in this condition, it kicks into 4th gear..
I stop the car, the engine revs up and down, acting all crazy. I stop the enginge, start after 2 seconds, and everything is back to normal.
There's really not any difference in noise from the engine or any other part when this happens. I can't push the pedal and get a response until I kick it, and the rpms will stay at 800 rpms no matter what the speed is - until I kick it - It goes up until I release it again - it will go back to 800 rpms, being all jelly before laying down steadily at 800 rpms again. Remember, my engine normally idles at 450-500 rpms, or lately (because I loosened the fuel cap) mostly at 650 rpms.
Really odd, as if clutch is applied, but no response until enough pedal is applied.
Some guy talking about disengaging 3rd and engaging 4th gear - governor pressure and what not.. http://www.mybenz.org/zoopp/html/module ... 0&forum=25
I do have a small leak from the transmission around the gasket and from the tap where flushing the transmission oil. It is barely noticable, and I check the oil level every week. I had a major leak on my old car - a 300E, and it didn't really care much about it, other than shifting very softly - it had to be overhauled unfortunately.
Re: M119 chokes at 4250 rpm..? - MAS..replaced..EZL replaced
Ok, here's my summary of videoes:
-Video00.wmv: Low idle (rough) at 450-500 rpms. Other times normal at 650 rpms (calm).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J3vcmWDFNJo
-Video01.wmv: Surging / fluctuating between rpms with no use of gas pedal. Restart and it is fine. No response when applying gas pedal. Rpms raises to 1500 rpms with no help from driver. Sometimes a lot worse than what's shown on the video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sX5TuDa8Xdk
-Video02.wmv: No response when applying gas pedal, until kicking it to the floor. Restarting enginge fixes the problem.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0dYsata6w6U
-Video03.wmv: Manual throttle applied/released, and a fairly loud clicking noise from the right hand side of the engine bay.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LXzHPGx5xh8
-Video04.wmv: Loud whining sound from fuel pump(s). Also a puffing noise from the exhaust (misfire?). High pressure build up in fuel tank (unfortunately no image). Spilling gasoline when releasing fuel cap with engine on. Especially low rpms at 450-500 at the same time.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A_HqNPx_uQI
-Video05.wmv: Loud noise from fuel pump(s)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N5_tRday4tA
Hope you see some more usefull information than being able to explain by words..
Ok, here's my summary of videoes:
-Video00.wmv: Low idle (rough) at 450-500 rpms. Other times normal at 650 rpms (calm).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J3vcmWDFNJo
-Video01.wmv: Surging / fluctuating between rpms with no use of gas pedal. Restart and it is fine. No response when applying gas pedal. Rpms raises to 1500 rpms with no help from driver. Sometimes a lot worse than what's shown on the video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sX5TuDa8Xdk
-Video02.wmv: No response when applying gas pedal, until kicking it to the floor. Restarting enginge fixes the problem.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0dYsata6w6U
-Video03.wmv: Manual throttle applied/released, and a fairly loud clicking noise from the right hand side of the engine bay.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LXzHPGx5xh8
-Video04.wmv: Loud whining sound from fuel pump(s). Also a puffing noise from the exhaust (misfire?). High pressure build up in fuel tank (unfortunately no image). Spilling gasoline when releasing fuel cap with engine on. Especially low rpms at 450-500 at the same time.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A_HqNPx_uQI
-Video05.wmv: Loud noise from fuel pump(s)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N5_tRday4tA
Hope you see some more usefull information than being able to explain by words..
Re: M119 chokes at 4250 rpm..? - MAS..replaced..EZL replaced
Hi again.
I'am having a REAL struggle driving the car at the moment.
The past couple of days, the car has gone into limp mode (no gas pedal response).
This is happening 7-8 times on a 30 minute drive. And now it seems impossible to reset it, by turning off the ignition.
The video (taken a while ago): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y-TU7Yq76ZI shows the problem at hand (thanks for commenting Christian_K)
Tomorrow morning I will be taking the car to the indy shop, for a brake flush and new fluids.
The indy shop guy has some kind of diagnosis tool (works mainly on Mercedes), but doesn't have the Star Diagnosis Tool. He has not worked on a 500E, but has occationally stumbled accross the M119.
I really hope he has some kind of hand held tool that works for more than the general ODB2 protocol (which this car doesn't support). But I fear that he only is able to pull a few codes, if he indeed has a flash code reader on the side.
Besides him hopefully being in possession of any somewhat proper tool(s), is there an onboard code reader by any of the terminals? If not, how can I get a hold of a descent flash code reader, for my own sake, when I need to see which ones pop up again?
Hi again.
I'am having a REAL struggle driving the car at the moment.
The past couple of days, the car has gone into limp mode (no gas pedal response).
This is happening 7-8 times on a 30 minute drive. And now it seems impossible to reset it, by turning off the ignition.
The video (taken a while ago): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y-TU7Yq76ZI shows the problem at hand (thanks for commenting Christian_K)
Tomorrow morning I will be taking the car to the indy shop, for a brake flush and new fluids.
The indy shop guy has some kind of diagnosis tool (works mainly on Mercedes), but doesn't have the Star Diagnosis Tool. He has not worked on a 500E, but has occationally stumbled accross the M119.
I really hope he has some kind of hand held tool that works for more than the general ODB2 protocol (which this car doesn't support). But I fear that he only is able to pull a few codes, if he indeed has a flash code reader on the side.
Besides him hopefully being in possession of any somewhat proper tool(s), is there an onboard code reader by any of the terminals? If not, how can I get a hold of a descent flash code reader, for my own sake, when I need to see which ones pop up again?
Re: M119 chokes at 4250 rpm..? - MAS..replaced..EZL replaced
The on-board LED reader will show codes from the DM module only. If any codes are present in the DM, this will turn on the Check Engine light on the dash. But the DM registers codes (and triggers the CEL) only if there is a fault related to the emission system. There will be codes in the other five main systems (EZL, E-GAS, ASR/ABS, BM, and LH) which have to be checked separately with the hand-held LED blinker box. Even then, you need to clear all the codes, and see which ones return quickly - those are the important ones.
How to build a home-made code reader (scroll to bottom) :
http://www.k6jrf.com/MB_X11.html
Or buy a pre-built one to save the hassle:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/320701318655
http://motors.shop.ebay.com/porscheapriliafan/m.html
Code list for 500E from the factory WIS - please don't use any other code list:
http://www.w124performance.com/docs/mb/ ... 992-95.pdf
mb280sel1985 said:
The on-board LED reader will show codes from the DM module only. If any codes are present in the DM, this will turn on the Check Engine light on the dash. But the DM registers codes (and triggers the CEL) only if there is a fault related to the emission system. There will be codes in the other five main systems (EZL, E-GAS, ASR/ABS, BM, and LH) which have to be checked separately with the hand-held LED blinker box. Even then, you need to clear all the codes, and see which ones return quickly - those are the important ones.
How to build a home-made code reader (scroll to bottom) :
http://www.k6jrf.com/MB_X11.html
Or buy a pre-built one to save the hassle:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/320701318655
http://motors.shop.ebay.com/porscheapriliafan/m.html
Code list for 500E from the factory WIS - please don't use any other code list:
http://www.w124performance.com/docs/mb/ ... 992-95.pdf
Re: M119 chokes at 4250 rpm..? - MAS..replaced..EZL replaced
Thanks a lot for your great info gsxr
Thanks a lot for your great info gsxr
Re: M119 chokes at 4250 rpm..? - MAS..replaced..EZL replaced
Ok, some updates. I took the car to the indy shop to read fault codes.
He used the "Autologic" scanner - http://www.autologic-diagnostics.com/di ... iagnostics
At first, we thought this might not work, since the scanner doesn't list the 500E/E500. But the W140 was available from the menu, so we used that setup. It gave results, and this is a multiplexer device which also gives live data.
Using the scanner showed "no current fault codes", when having the ignition set. But when looking at stored faults, there was a whole 5 pages long list of more than 20 codes. He turned the ignition off and back on, and then there were just 2 codes showing.
The codes were "12 - heated oxygen sensor heater, open/short circuit", and the "9 - Intake air temperature sensor, open/short circuit".
-We found that the air intake temp sensor was disconnected! The (MAF was replaced less than a year ago, and the data looked ok - about 35-37 'something'.)
-The O2 sensor was ok when reading the live data as well.
We wrapped it up by clearing the codes, and I got to drive all the way to work (1 hour) with no problems, and a more calm and correctly idling engine after reconnecting the cable.
However I noticed when putting the transmission in P at the destination, that the rpms went up to 1200-1500. So the problem was not resolved I guess.
Regarding my question to him - if there were any vacuum leaks - he said that the live data from the O2 sensor, would have peaked in one or the other direction of the scale, giving an absolute readout. He concluded that there were no leaks, because the O2 sensor readouts were variable and looked fairly OK.
I will be returning to the indy shop shortly, to see if any similar or new codes have popped or not.
I'm not sure he was able to read all types of codes, from all modules with that Autologic device. I'm not sure any codes regarding gearbox-selection "D, R, N, etc" (ref Christian_K from the video I posted) would show.. I assume this would be the "Starter non-repeat and back-up light switch".
Any thoughts on this latest experience anyone?
Anyone used the Autologic device?
Ok, some updates. I took the car to the indy shop to read fault codes.
He used the "Autologic" scanner - http://www.autologic-diagnostics.com/di ... iagnostics
At first, we thought this might not work, since the scanner doesn't list the 500E/E500. But the W140 was available from the menu, so we used that setup. It gave results, and this is a multiplexer device which also gives live data.
Using the scanner showed "no current fault codes", when having the ignition set. But when looking at stored faults, there was a whole 5 pages long list of more than 20 codes. He turned the ignition off and back on, and then there were just 2 codes showing.
The codes were "12 - heated oxygen sensor heater, open/short circuit", and the "9 - Intake air temperature sensor, open/short circuit".
-We found that the air intake temp sensor was disconnected! The (MAF was replaced less than a year ago, and the data looked ok - about 35-37 'something'.)
-The O2 sensor was ok when reading the live data as well.
We wrapped it up by clearing the codes, and I got to drive all the way to work (1 hour) with no problems, and a more calm and correctly idling engine after reconnecting the cable.
However I noticed when putting the transmission in P at the destination, that the rpms went up to 1200-1500. So the problem was not resolved I guess.
Regarding my question to him - if there were any vacuum leaks - he said that the live data from the O2 sensor, would have peaked in one or the other direction of the scale, giving an absolute readout. He concluded that there were no leaks, because the O2 sensor readouts were variable and looked fairly OK.
I will be returning to the indy shop shortly, to see if any similar or new codes have popped or not.
I'm not sure he was able to read all types of codes, from all modules with that Autologic device. I'm not sure any codes regarding gearbox-selection "D, R, N, etc" (ref Christian_K from the video I posted) would show.. I assume this would be the "Starter non-repeat and back-up light switch".
Any thoughts on this latest experience anyone?
Anyone used the Autologic device?
Re: M119 chokes at 4250 rpm..? - MAS..replaced..EZL replaced
For me this is getting very confusing now and hard to follow, you do post your latest results and updates over 3 different topics, which is very hard to follow for me.
I'd be sticking with one topic - your own ;-)
Post the latest results there also and i will answer you.
For me this is getting very confusing now and hard to follow, you do post your latest results and updates over 3 different topics, which is very hard to follow for me.
I'd be sticking with one topic - your own ;-)
Post the latest results there also and i will answer you.
Re: M119 chokes at 4250 rpm..? - MAS..replaced..EZL replaced
Good point. I've posted it in my original thread: viewtopic.php?f=25&t=1110&p=8684#p8684
Good point. I've posted it in my original thread: viewtopic.php?f=25&t=1110&p=8684#p8684
Re: M119 chokes at 4250 rpm..? - MAS..replaced..EZL replaced
I got rid of the choking / misfiring..
see my post.
I believe one of the following issues caused this:
1. Air temperature sensor behind left head lamp disconnected - connected
2. O2 sensor - replaced
3. vacuum hose disconnected hanging at the top of the tranny right side - closed (unsure where it belongs)
4. unlikely cause perhaps - hydraulics leaking from hose - fixed
Nothing wrong with my coils, rotors, caps, plugs or their cables.
Note: at the same time I replaced the engine and tranny mounts (2+1)
I got rid of the choking / misfiring..
see my post.
I believe one of the following issues caused this:
1. Air temperature sensor behind left head lamp disconnected - connected
2. O2 sensor - replaced
3. vacuum hose disconnected hanging at the top of the tranny right side - closed (unsure where it belongs)
4. unlikely cause perhaps - hydraulics leaking from hose - fixed
Nothing wrong with my coils, rotors, caps, plugs or their cables.
Note: at the same time I replaced the engine and tranny mounts (2+1)
Re: M119 chokes at 4250 rpm..? - MAS..replaced..EZL replaced
OK, you kinda lost me here.. Got rid of the choking..? Was that the choking at 4K rpm or the lack of response..? The vacuum line you have hanging loose, is it towards the rear of your trany or front driver side, to modulator..?
OK, you kinda lost me here.. Got rid of the choking..? Was that the choking at 4K rpm or the lack of response..? The vacuum line you have hanging loose, is it towards the rear of your trany or front driver side, to modulator..?
Re: M119 chokes at 4250 rpm..? - MAS..replaced..EZL replaced
I got rid of the chocking yes. At least it seems to shift correctly at full throttle 5500 rpms, and there is no hesitation at 4k rpm, neither before nor after shifting anymore.
1. The choking happend when giving full throttle after gear shift (i.e. passing a car)
2. The lack of response was from gas pedal not responding (limp home mode).
FYI: I have not had any more limping this week, after fixing what I've described in my thread: viewtopic.php?f=25&t=1110
All the problems seem to have been fixed, except the occational low rpms I'm having (450-500 rpms).
Yeah, too much info there, sorry.Benzer said:
I got rid of the chocking yes. At least it seems to shift correctly at full throttle 5500 rpms, and there is no hesitation at 4k rpm, neither before nor after shifting anymore.
Those were explained as two different problems. I don't know if they could be related or not.Benzer said:
1. The choking happend when giving full throttle after gear shift (i.e. passing a car)
2. The lack of response was from gas pedal not responding (limp home mode).
The vacuum line was hanging towards the rear of the tranny, not front driver side.Benzer said:
FYI: I have not had any more limping this week, after fixing what I've described in my thread: viewtopic.php?f=25&t=1110
All the problems seem to have been fixed, except the occational low rpms I'm having (450-500 rpms).
Re: M119 chokes at 4250 rpm..? - MAS..replaced..EZL replaced
Interesting, still I can't make the connection between the O2 sens. and the high end choke, but I guess I will have to STAR my engine once again and check my readings.. Not that its related but have you replaced your valve cover gaskets..? If they are real bad seepage can occur into the spark plugs causing a misfire..
Interesting, still I can't make the connection between the O2 sens. and the high end choke, but I guess I will have to STAR my engine once again and check my readings.. Not that its related but have you replaced your valve cover gaskets..? If they are real bad seepage can occur into the spark plugs causing a misfire..
Re: M119 chokes at 4250 rpm..? - MAS..replaced..EZL replaced
About the O2 sensor; made a great difference. It had'nt been changed, and the car had 220K km on the clock. It caused a fault, which I am 90% sure was the main cause of the limp home mode. I'm not cerain what fixed the choking issue though, but it must have been one of the things mentioned in my thread.
I haven't replaced the valve cover gasket, no. But I do remember my mechanic mentioned a very, very minor trace of oil in the coolant, when he drained, flushed and refilled it last summer.
I constantly check oil cap, oil and quality of the coolant fluid. It looks very much OK indeed. The oil is almost to eat! It's like clear nice warm honey, even after 5k km.
It's like I almost can't hear it, but there is some ticking from the left side of enigne.
Hope there is not much work to this??
Another thing about the hydraulics leak.. May this cause the EZL or other parts to misinterpret/ruin the calculations, causing any of these issues and/or the chocking?
Best regards.
Hm, what you're saying about the valve cover gasket struck my mind a few months ago, after reading some about it in forums, because I had some smoke from the tail (little), coolant sucked away and because it ran low on idle.Benzer said:
About the O2 sensor; made a great difference. It had'nt been changed, and the car had 220K km on the clock. It caused a fault, which I am 90% sure was the main cause of the limp home mode. I'm not cerain what fixed the choking issue though, but it must have been one of the things mentioned in my thread.
I haven't replaced the valve cover gasket, no. But I do remember my mechanic mentioned a very, very minor trace of oil in the coolant, when he drained, flushed and refilled it last summer.
I constantly check oil cap, oil and quality of the coolant fluid. It looks very much OK indeed. The oil is almost to eat! It's like clear nice warm honey, even after 5k km.
It's like I almost can't hear it, but there is some ticking from the left side of enigne.
Thanks, I will actually check it right away.
Hope there is not much work to this??
Another thing about the hydraulics leak.. May this cause the EZL or other parts to misinterpret/ruin the calculations, causing any of these issues and/or the chocking?
Best regards.
